Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

To quote you, Jack: READ THE BOOK. It's titled DR. MARY'S MONKEY.

Now someone tell me again. I must have missed it. What is the proof that

a US PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE HOSPITAL had a linear particle accelerator in

1963, and that Dr. Mary Sherman had access to it, and was there working on

mutating cancer viruses produced by mice and marmosets infected by

Ferrie and Vary, when some unknown person decided to kill Dr. Mary,

and decided that a great way to do it would to accelerate an atomic

particle toward her, blasting away part of her torso in a gruesome manner,

and then decided to cover up his crime by transporting her mutilated bleeding

body to her house, where he broke into her house and deposited her

burned body, and then stabbed the corpse with a butcher knife and simulated

a sex crime, and then persuaded the coroner to say that the stab wounds

occurred before the horrible burns, since the stab wounds were the cause

of death, and accomplished all of this without any hospital workers or neighbors

noticing...well, I must have missed a lot somewhere here, since I did not

see any proof of any of this. Maybe I missed it in in one of the thousands

of postings in this thread. I need to pay closer attention. Someone has

solved a major murder mystery and I didn't notice.

Jack

[Karl Kinaski]

xxx

Edited October 29, 2010 by Karl Kinaski

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JIM ADDRESSES DAVID LIFTON ABOUT JUDYTH AND ABOUT HARVEY & LEE

You are entitled to your opinion, David, but you have not been studying this exchange and you have a motive that others besides me believe biases your attitude toward Judyth. I not only disagree with you about Judyth but am disappointed in you, not for your claims to fame about your earlier JFK research, which you richly deserve, but your unwillingness to share (what you claim to be) the basis for your skepticism about Judyth--the cassette tape of your one-hour plus conversation with her--which would enable me to confirm or disconfirm the claims you make based upon it, and your unwillingness to declare whether or not you believe in the fanciful story of HARVEY & LEE. If you denounce Judyth because you think she is a "fantasist", which I deny, then surely you should be even more outspoken about John Armstrong, since Judyth--on this forum, at least--had not made a significant impact on the research community, to judge by most of those who have posted here, while Armstrong appears to be something akin to a saint in the minds of many. If, as you maintain, "(you) simply cannot and will not stand idly by and watch someone mess up the historical record by bearing false witness", then your obligation to come clean about HARVEY & LEE must vastly outweigh your obligation to come clean about Judyth, if, as I believe, you do not support the "two Oswald's" theory that is presented there. Before you take too much credit for your moral stance regarding Judyth, where I am confident that you are wrong, you need to face up to your obligation to come clean about HARVEY & Lee, where you might even be right.

Kevin Greelee:

I just read your post (#1450, dated 4/21/10) which quotes two of my posts (on the Alt.conspiracy discussion group, now available via Google) --some ten years ago (specifically, one on 10/26/2000, and the other on 12/31/2001). These posts were written at a time not only when my recollections of my March 4 2000, conversation with Judyth were fresh in my mind, but also at a time when I probably had a thick pile of notes and transcript material at hand.

As you correctly quote, Judyth made the following assertions in that March, 2000 phone call:

ITEM: That she co-wrote a science fiction story with Lee Oswald

ITEM: That, to beef up security for Kennedy, Lee fomented the Adlai Stevenson incident in Dallas

ITEM: That she, Judyth, had been offered $1 million by some tabloid for her story

ITEM: That despite her connection with all these events back in 1963, she never heard of the Garrison investigation at the time it was occurring (starting around Feb 1967)

ITEM: That at the "cancer lab" at Dave Ferrie¹s apartment, they "processed" 4,000 mice per month.

ITEM: That she arranged to check Lee out of work (and so that's why the time clock records, to be found in the 26 volumes)

appear as they do. (To anyone interested: There are certain clusters of times,which--IMHO-- Judyth explains by inserting herself into a "story" built around that data).

ITEM: That in connection with her alleged knowledge of Lee's visit to lecture at the Jesuit college at Spring Hill, Alabama,

that Robert Kennedy made a phone call there. (Yes, dear reader, blink twice if you must, but no, you're not imagining what I just wrote:

in the March, 2000 phone call, Judyth alleged that Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General of the United States,

called the Jesuit College at which Oswald spoke, and for some undefined reason, in connection with LHO's visit there).

ITEM: That she (and her co-workers in Florida) "knew" the

assassination was going to happen, and so prepared to watch it on TV.

As you noted, the links to the full text of my two posts were:

for October 26,2000:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...ca7348809?hl=en

and for Dec 31 2001

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...c1cb707a4?hl=en

When I clicked on the links you provided, they came right up on my screen.

* * *

Again, thanks for your post, and for the URL links that bring these two posts--from 10 years ago--right onto the computer screen. I had completely forgotten about these details, or that I had analyzed the conversation I had had with Judyth in such detail, and, finally, that I had written these posts. Its hard to believe that ten years have passed!

And of course you are right: with regard to my own skepticism about Judyth and her various claims, it is incorrect for anyone to focus just on the "Cancun" matter as "the reason" I rejected her entire story (as if that was the only problem!). As these posts amply demonstrate, it was much more than her claim that Lee Oswald said that they (she and Judyth) would/should meet in Cancun (the resort which did not then exist, aside from whether some primitive village by that name did exist) that lay behind my own conclusions about Judyth--i.e., that she lacked credibility, could not/should not be taken seriously, and my own conclusions that she was a fantasist.

One other point: I am not saying any of these things to hurt anyone individually. Its just that I have spent too much time on the Kennedy case connecting the dots, and attempting to do real research--and believe me, that is hard enough--and so when some intruder enters the picture, claiming that they were “on the grassy knoll,” or “in the autopsy room” or—in this instance—in the life of Lee Oswald, (who was, obviously, a major player in this affair, even if he was framed for a crime he did not commit) I must raise my hand and say “I object.” It is easy to argue about the evidence with someone with whose theories I disagree. But I simply cannot and will not stand idly by and watch someone mess up the historical record by bearing false witness.

DSL

4/26/10; 2 AM

Los Angeles, CA

Edited April 27, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Jack White]

Thanks, David. I find the most incredible of the items you list is that JVB was unaware

of the Garrison investigation back in 1967. Every newspaper and magazine and TV

newscast carried details daily. I even bought 3 month subscriptions to the New Orleans

Item and the New Orleans Times-Picayune to get fuller coverage. At that time the

assassination was fresh in everyone's minds, many of the players were still alive, and

even the grocery story tabloids had front page coverage every week. Knowing about

the CONTROVERSIAL Garrison trial was unavoidable. Garrison was even a guest on

the Carson Tonight show.

Someone who had personal acquaintances with David Ferrie, Guy Banister, Clay

Shaw, Lee Oswald, Reily Coffee, et al had to be living on another planet to be UNAWARE

of the Clay Shaw Trial. UNBELIEVABLE!

Jack

Kevin Greelee:

I just read your post (#1450, dated 4/21/10) which quotes two of my posts (on the Alt.conspiracy discussion group, now available via Google) --some ten years ago (specifically, one on 10/26/2000, and the other on 12/31/2001). These posts were written at a time not only when my recollections of my March 4 2000, conversation with Judyth were fresh in my mind, but also at a time when I probably had a thick pile of notes and transcript material at hand.

As you correctly quote, Judyth made the following assertions in that March, 2000 phone call:

ITEM: That she co-wrote a science fiction story with Lee Oswald

ITEM: That, to beef up security for Kennedy, Lee fomented the Adlai Stevenson incident in Dallas

ITEM: That she, Judyth, had been offered $1 million by some tabloid for her story

ITEM: That despite her connection with all these events back in 1963, she never heard of the Garrison investigation at the time it was occurring (starting around Feb 1967)

ITEM: That at the "cancer lab" at Dave Ferrie¹s apartment, they "processed" 4,000 mice per month.

ITEM: That she arranged to check Lee out of work (and so that's why the time clock records, to be found in the 26 volumes)

appear as they do. (To anyone interested: There are certain clusters of times,which--IMHO-- Judyth explains by inserting herself into a "story" built around that data).

ITEM: That in connection with her alleged knowledge of Lee's visit to lecture at the Jesuit college at Spring Hill, Alabama,

that Robert Kennedy made a phone call there. (Yes, dear reader, blink twice if you must, but no, you're not imagining what I just wrote:

in the March, 2000 phone call, Judyth alleged that Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General of the United States,

called the Jesuit College at which Oswald spoke, and for some undefined reason, in connection with LHO's visit there).

ITEM: That she (and her co-workers in Florida) "knew" the

assassination was going to happen, and so prepared to watch it on TV.

As you noted, the links to the full text of my two posts were:

for October 26,2000:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...ca7348809?hl=en

and for Dec 31 2001

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...c1cb707a4?hl=en

When I clicked on the links you provided, they came right up on my screen.

* * *

Again, thanks for your post, and for the URL links that bring these two posts--from 10 years ago--right onto the computer screen. I had completely forgotten about these details, or that I had analyzed the conversation I had had with Judyth in such detail, and, finally, that I had written these posts. Its hard to believe that ten years have passed!

And of course you are right: with regard to my own skepticism about Judyth and her various claims, it is incorrect for anyone to focus just on the "Cancun" matter as "the reason" I rejected her entire story (as if that was the only problem!). As these posts amply demonstrate, it was much more than her claim that Lee Oswald said that they (she and Judyth) would/should meet in Cancun (the resort which did not then exist, aside from whether some primitive village by that name did exist) that lay behind my own conclusions about Judyth--i.e., that she lacked credibility, could not/should not be taken seriously, and my own conclusions that she was a fantasist.

One other point: I am not saying any of these things to hurt anyone individually. Its just that I have spent too much time on the Kennedy case connecting the dots, and attempting to do real research--and believe me, that is hard enough--and so when some intruder enters the picture, claiming that they were “on the grassy knoll,” or “in the autopsy room” or—in this instance—in the life of Lee Oswald, (who was, obviously, a major player in this affair, even if he was framed for a crime he did not commit) I must raise my hand and say “I object.” It is easy to argue about the evidence with someone with whose theories I disagree. But I simply cannot and will not stand idly by and watch someone mess up the historical record by bearing false witness.

DSL

4/26/10; 2 AM

Los Angeles, CA

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Evan,

Frankly, I had wondered what had become of you. This guy must have put up at least twenty (20) of these petty, juvenile, self-absorbed, belittling, repetitive and harassing posts. I would appreciate it if you would work backwards from his latest infantile assault and consider whether he has or has not so massively violated forum rules that he deserves the boot. I believe that he does. I also think it's obvious.

Jim

Glenn,

I have had to remove bad language from your post, and your tone is bordering on insulting / attacking a member. Please carefully consider your choice of words.

Also, although not active, Judyth is a member here and therefore the provisions of rule (iv) apply.

Thank you.

Edited April 26, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Jack White]

Currently $2000 apiece.

Jack

CONCLUDING REFLECTIONS FROM MY PSY OPS EXPERT

The perfect Cover Story for closing Ochsner's Program down, instituting a complete cover-up, and taking the program super deep black

What a perfect cover story for shutting down Ochsner's program>>>AN ACCIDENT with the particle accelerator at the lab. A horrendous accident that requires the immediate mercy killing of the victim, so that if any real investigation is allowed it will lead to Ochsner and/or his key subordinates as either murderers or accessories to murder and accessories after the fact (this is best described as a "situationally mandated human compromise" involving an unwilling murderer(s) who must act out of compassion and have a long term motivation to keep silent about everything even peripherally associated).

And of course Inca could be linked to the JFK Assassination and to Ochsner and his associate Oswald too if necessary. So you can see that the super-slick intel faction did a pretty good job creating massive motivation for everyone to keep quiet about Ochsner's program and refrain from any investigation which could easily bring down the whole Ochsner clinic and the whole public health system.

Jim, these extraordinary historical mega-event turning points (like the JFK assassination) which redirect history are almost always a convergence of motives between the powerful super-elites and factions at the very top of the shadow govt. LBJ was perhaps the final catalyst and it is likely the the super-slick faction manipulated circumstances to bring immediate legal threats against him related to the Bobby Baker boxcar leases for boxcars that never existed. Now this is how these super-slick intel folk's work. They play all sides against the middle and manipulate conditions and settings to obtain the outcomes they want.

The bottom line is this Jim. The super-slicks realized that Dr. Sherman had either discovered the cure for the viral chains contaminating the vaccines or was very close, and knew that she was basically an honest honorable person who would talk to the WC investigators when they met with her. They knew she would tell the truth of what she knew to them only and they did not want it in any record. They also realized that the program needed to be taken completely deep black (above top secret).

They had come to understand that DNA and RNA warfare was their key to total spectrum dominance at home and in the battlefield in the future and the ultimate cure for overpopulation and a pesky public and congress that might did too deep into their affairs. They also understood that the vaccine contaminated with viral chains needed to be continued to make the cancer industry strong as well as big medicine and big pharma too. Big profits were at stake. And of course the potential for controlled eugenics and mind control was now well within reach.

One key lead which could be followed would be to find where the particle accelerator was moved too. It is unlikely equipment that expensive would be junked. It may have been moved to a super-secure base such as at Fort Detrick, MD Army Biological Weapons Laboratory, Dugway proving grounds, Dulce NM underground base or area 51 S9 papoose lake in Nevada or some other facility, or may have been sold to a close foreign ally like Israel (hint, hint).

Anyone who studies big pharma and its history in detail soon realizes that there is a big involvement of the wall street Nazi sympathizers who financed the Nazi movement starting in the 1920's and "traded with that enemy" throughout WW2.

Well Jim, by now you can see that by your focusing on Ed Haslam's excellent research and the important history provided by JVB, you have taken the JFK assassination to a whole new level and in a whole new direction. You have now thrown the current work of several major researchers into full tilt and shown that they were pursuing the wrong trail. And these folks are in shock and dismay because of it. And then you have the usual cadre of WC apologists and Lone Nutters that for years have kept pushing their company lines whether they knew they were dupes or not or even worked as an asset of the company, which some clearly have. Finally Jim you have driven a stake through the heart of their nefarious nonsensical arguments. And they are hopping mad and are attempting to discredit you and insult you at every opportunity. Their arguments are empty and their true colors are now openly displayed for all who love truth to see. These folks are doofuses and have collapsed under their own absurdities.

You have picked up where Garrison has left off. And you have taken the JFK Assassination investigation in a whole new, unexpected direction which has FULLY EXPOSED THE INTERSECTION OF THE MOB, INTEL, THE MILITARY, THE US PUBLIC HEATH SERVICE, BIG PHARMA, THE CANCER INSTITUTE AND BIG MEDICINE.

Highest commendations are due to you, Ed Haslam and Judyth Vary for making such groundbreaking excellent contributions.

Jim, this recent breakthrough in the JFK Assassination is the biggest discovery in the last twenty years and DIRECTLY TIES TO THE CURRENT HEALTH OF THE US POPULATION, CURRENT VACCINATIONS, EUGENICS, SUPER DEEP BLACK ADVANCED BIO-WARFARE, BIG PHARMA, AND BIG MEDICINE.

Could this discovery and new turn in the JFK Investigation be any bigger than this????

No wonder such long term and extensive psyops have been brought against JVB over so many years and no wonder so many WC apologists, Lone-Nutters and others have tried to discredit yours and Judyth Vary's postings on the Educational Forum even resorting to petty insults and glaring lies against you and Judyth Vary.

Jim, you turned the Educational Forum into a temporary and very large Rorshach Inkblot Test and hooked many enemies of the truth without their understanding that they took the bait. This gives you a big snapshot into how cover-ups are run long term. You hooked the doofuses and elicited them to give themselves away. And you also exposed some researchers who have likely been going off down the wrong rabbit hole.

Again congratulations for hitting another grand slam home run. I am most appreciative of your continuing and excellent work for the last 20 years I have followed it.

Two observations...

1. This is the post of a PSY-OPS "expert"? Would a psy-ops expert call people "doofuses" in a discussion about disinformation agents, etc? What are his qualifications? Why can't we know his name?

Jim, I think you've been conned...

2. I know a woman who sells animals to laboratories. We once had a conversation where she explained the pricing and commission structure for her line of work. She explained that the pricing went up exponentially as one progressed from lab rats to rabbits to dogs to monkeys to chimps. This was probably ten years ago. At that time, as I recall, chimps were about 800 bucks apiece and dogs were something like 100. I'm not sure where Marmosets would fit in, but I'm betting they ain't cheap, and would cost least 20 times as much as a lab rat, which can be bought in volume for something less than 2 bucks apiece. Unless Judyth can offer us a particular reason why Marmosets were used, and perhaps explain how they were acquired, this presents yet another challenge to her story.

P.S. I found a price list online with the prices in rupees. A rupee from what I can gather is a little over 2 cents. This means a mouse is about a dollar, a rat about two dollars, and a rabbit between 20 and 30 dollars. This supports my position that it would be quite an undertaking to purchase and kill hundreds of Marmosets.

http://www.niper.ac.in/price.htm

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Bill,

My understanding is that LHO needed the vaccine card (which was a fake of his own making in all likely hood) to get a passport.

Todd

Has anybody checked into the background of the OTHER JVB?

Does anyone know what the purpose of Oswald's fake vaccine card was for?

Thanks,

BK

QUOTE (Jack White @ Apr 22 2010, 05:16 PM)

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=190450

But Jim...Mary Sherman died at home in her apartment. If the LINEAR ACCELERATOR was located in the Public Health Hospital, how could it have been responsible for her death?

Have you read the reports of her death?

In post #1479, I identified the location of the linear particle accelerator:

None of it can be known with certainty, but the basic elements are very strongly supported. It would be a mistake to suppose that every aspect of her story has to be supported to the same degree as every other. Among the 17 findings that Haslam enumerates, which I have reiterated above, the most important and best supported concern Judyth's ability to conduct reseach on cancer, that she was induced to come to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner, that she met and worked with Mary Sherman, David Ferrie, and Lee Oswald, that Mary was killed by a massive source of electricity (almost certainly the linear particle accelerator at the Public Health Hospital), and that Judyth was summarily dismissed by Ochsner after she complained about the prisoner who was used in a (fatal) experiment conducted without informed consent.

In post #1495, he asks if the accelerator was located in Ferrie's apartment or lab across the street. Not to put too fine a point on it but, given this post, how can post #1474 be truthful?

QUOTE (Jack White @ Apr 22 2010, 04:32 PM)

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=190422

Here is a LINEAR PARTICLE ACCELERATOR. Did David Ferrie have his in his apartment

or his laboratory across the street?

Jack

I still have two unanswered questions on the table.

Who was the OTHER Judyth Vary Baker who Ed Haslam met?

And why did Oswald forge a fake vaccine card with Dr. Alek Hidel's name on it from the

US Public Service Hospital in New Orleans?

What could he have possibly used this card for? Was it necessary to get a visa to Mexico? Did he want to establish the existence of Dr. Hidell? Can anyone think of another good reason to create such a card?

Oswald reportedly checked out this hospital as a potential place for his second daughter to be born, but that plan was thwarted when Marina wrote to Ruth Paine via Art Young and said she would go with her to Texas for the baby to be born.

This is the hospital where the partical accellerator was said to be located, the one that killed Mary Sherman, though according to EH she was moved to her apartment to make it appear she was the victim of an intruder.

Of course there is the world's largest and new particle accellerator in Switzerland that also recently made the news:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15727

A would-be saboteur arrested today at the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland made the bizarre claim that he was from the future. Eloi Cole, a strangely dressed young man, said that he had travelled back in time to prevent the LHC from destroying the world.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/0,39029552,49305387,00.htm

The LHC successfully collided particles at record force earlier this week, a milestone Mr Cole was attempting to disrupt by stopping supplies of Mountain Dew to the experiment's vending machines. He also claimed responsibility for the infamous baguette sabotage in November last year.

Mr Cole was seized by Swiss police after CERN security guards spotted him rooting around in bins. He explained that he was looking for fuel for his 'time machine power unit', a device that resembled a kitchen blender.

Police said Mr Cole, who was wearing a bow tie and rather too much tweed for his age, would not reveal his country of origin. "Countries do not exist where I am from. The discovery of the Higgs boson led to limitless power, the elimination of poverty and Kit-Kats for everyone. It is a communist chocolate hellhole and I'm here to stop it ever happening."

This isn't the first time time-travel has been blamed for mishaps at the LHC. Last year, the Japanese physicist Masao Ninomiya and Danish string-theory pioneer Holger Bech Nielsen put forward the hypothesis that the Higgs boson was so "abhorrent" that it somehow caused a ripple in time that prevented its own discovery.

Professor Brian Cox, a former CERN physicist and full-time rock'n'roll TV scientist, was sympathetic to Mr Cole. "Bless him, he sounds harmless enough. At least he didn't mention bloody black holes."

Mr Cole was taken to a secure mental health facility in Geneva but later disappeared from his cell. Police are baffled, but not that bothered.

[Jack White]

ITEM: That, to beef up security for Kennedy, Lee fomented the Adlai Stevenson incident in Dallas

This incident was organized by wealthy right-wing Republicans a month before the assassination. As I recall

LHO was working that day. Just how did he organize these Republican ladies?

Jack

[Jack White]

I am unaware of a FAKE VACCINE CARD OF LHO SIGNED BY DR. HIDELL. What is the CE number?

Can anyone post an image of it? I have never seen it.

Jack

Bill,

My understanding is that LHO needed the vaccine card (which was a fake of his own making in all likely hood) to get a passport.

Todd

Has anybody checked into the background of the OTHER JVB?

Does anyone know what the purpose of Oswald's fake vaccine card was for?

Thanks,

BK

QUOTE (Jack White @ Apr 22 2010, 05:16 PM)

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=190450

But Jim...Mary Sherman died at home in her apartment. If the LINEAR ACCELERATOR was located in the Public Health Hospital, how could it have been responsible for her death?

Have you read the reports of her death?

In post #1479, I identified the location of the linear particle accelerator:

None of it can be known with certainty, but the basic elements are very strongly supported. It would be a mistake to suppose that every aspect of her story has to be supported to the same degree as every other. Among the 17 findings that Haslam enumerates, which I have reiterated above, the most important and best supported concern Judyth's ability to conduct reseach on cancer, that she was induced to come to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner, that she met and worked with Mary Sherman, David Ferrie, and Lee Oswald, that Mary was killed by a massive source of electricity (almost certainly the linear particle accelerator at the Public Health Hospital), and that Judyth was summarily dismissed by Ochsner after she complained about the prisoner who was used in a (fatal) experiment conducted without informed consent.

In post #1495, he asks if the accelerator was located in Ferrie's apartment or lab across the street. Not to put too fine a point on it but, given this post, how can post #1474 be truthful?

QUOTE (Jack White @ Apr 22 2010, 04:32 PM)

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=190422

Here is a LINEAR PARTICLE ACCELERATOR. Did David Ferrie have his in his apartment

or his laboratory across the street?

Jack

I still have two unanswered questions on the table.

Who was the OTHER Judyth Vary Baker who Ed Haslam met?

And why did Oswald forge a fake vaccine card with Dr. Alek Hidel's name on it from the

US Public Service Hospital in New Orleans?

What could he have possibly used this card for? Was it necessary to get a visa to Mexico? Did he want to establish the existence of Dr. Hidell? Can anyone think of another good reason to create such a card?

Oswald reportedly checked out this hospital as a potential place for his second daughter to be born, but that plan was thwarted when Marina wrote to Ruth Paine via Art Young and said she would go with her to Texas for the baby to be born.

This is the hospital where the partical accellerator was said to be located, the one that killed Mary Sherman, though according to EH she was moved to her apartment to make it appear she was the victim of an intruder.

Of course there is the world's largest and new particle accellerator in Switzerland that also recently made the news:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15727

A would-be saboteur arrested today at the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland made the bizarre claim that he was from the future. Eloi Cole, a strangely dressed young man, said that he had travelled back in time to prevent the LHC from destroying the world.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/0,39029552,49305387,00.htm

The LHC successfully collided particles at record force earlier this week, a milestone Mr Cole was attempting to disrupt by stopping supplies of Mountain Dew to the experiment's vending machines. He also claimed responsibility for the infamous baguette sabotage in November last year.

Mr Cole was seized by Swiss police after CERN security guards spotted him rooting around in bins. He explained that he was looking for fuel for his 'time machine power unit', a device that resembled a kitchen blender.

Police said Mr Cole, who was wearing a bow tie and rather too much tweed for his age, would not reveal his country of origin. "Countries do not exist where I am from. The discovery of the Higgs boson led to limitless power, the elimination of poverty and Kit-Kats for everyone. It is a communist chocolate hellhole and I'm here to stop it ever happening."

This isn't the first time time-travel has been blamed for mishaps at the LHC. Last year, the Japanese physicist Masao Ninomiya and Danish string-theory pioneer Holger Bech Nielsen put forward the hypothesis that the Higgs boson was so "abhorrent" that it somehow caused a ripple in time that prevented its own discovery.

Professor Brian Cox, a former CERN physicist and full-time rock'n'roll TV scientist, was sympathetic to Mr Cole. "Bless him, he sounds harmless enough. At least he didn't mention bloody black holes."

Mr Cole was taken to a secure mental health facility in Geneva but later disappeared from his cell. Police are baffled, but not that bothered.

[Kathleen Collins]

One of the positive things that has come out of this thread is your joining EF and participating, Greg. I think many members have appreciated the balanced and informed positions you have taken whether they agree with you or not.

Maybe marriage has mellowed you a little, but I'm glad you still care.

[emphasis added]

I like your analysis of what transpired, Mike. Also, many thanks for the kind words. And your last observation [in bold] is possibly more astute than you even know!

I agree. But I can see how my mention of Marilyn Monroe and the photos I and others posted of her could "anger" you. Rich said MM was allowed on his forum anytime. But with people claiming the Kennedy's killed her, I can see why I shouldn't have published things about her there.

Let me say: I never believed the Kennedys had anything to do directly with her death. A disinformationalist, now dead, named Robert F Slatzer, made a cottage industry of her death. He was a Hollywood man who wrote bad scripts for low-budget movies and was broke. But he heard the gossip about her and blew it up after Norman Mailer's book came out.

Yes, Robert K was there that afternoon at her house. But my belief is when he left that day, after an argument, a mobster showed up, possibly Johnny Roselli, and killed her. Slatzer then admitted an ally into his scheme: a has-been, never been, former low-budget starlet, Jeanne Carmen. She proclaimed she was Mariyn's best friend. But no one on Marilyn's team -- the chauffeur, the hairdresser, the make-up man, etc., ever heard of a Robert Slatzer or Jeanne Carmen; and they worked closely with Marilyn for her entire film career. They went on Mike Douglas' show and said they never heard of the 2.

I don't want to say anymore because it's off-topic. I do believe Pres. Kennedy had a brief affair with her, and Bobby didn't. So what? They used bad judgement.

Anyway, I just wanted to say this to you. This thread has been people hurling insults and has gone to hell. I just wanted to explain my change of opinion regarding Marilyn and you.

Kathy C

,

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JIM APPEALS TO JACK TO STOP A CAMPAIGN THAT IS DISCREDITING HIMSELF

Jack,

Ed Haslam spend more than a decade doing research to track down what happened to

Mary Sherman. Time after time, on this forum, during this thread, claims that Judyth

has made, which appeared initially to be very implausible, have turned out to be true.

In post #1583, Judyth even provided a citation about the common use of marmosets:

"The common marmoset (Callithrix jacchus) is a small, nonendangered New World primate that is native to

Brazil and has been used extensively in biomedical research. Historically the common marmoset has been used

in neuroscience, reproductive biology, infectious disease, and behavioral research. Recently, the species has been

used increasingly in drug development and safety assessment. Advantages relate to size, cost, husbandry, and

biosafety issues as well as unique physiologic differences that may be used in model development. Availability

and ease of breeding in captivity suggest that they may represent an alternative species to more traditional

nonhuman primates. The marmoset models commonly used in biomedical research are presented, with

emphasis on those that may provide an alternative to traditional nonhuman primate species."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14524414

Again, in post #1569, I pointed out that, although her claims about Lee's "reading list" seemed far-fetched, she was right:

In a paragraph below in my response to Bernice, I made the following observation about Lee's reading list:

Other aspects of her story may involve embellishments, such as recollecting the details of conversations they

had on various occasions. I certainly agree that the "reading list" Judyth provided appears to be a bit much,

where it reads more like a "wish list" than actual reading by the man who was killed in Dallas. Yet, even here,

Judyth has some support for what she has to tell us in the form of a report by Marina about what Lee read.

Time after time, points she has made that seemed initially implausible have turned out to be true. Lee's list,

no matter how implausible, was substantiated by the FBI and became a formal document in the hearings:

So I think we have one more illustration of the dramatic difference it makes when claims that initially appear

to be implausible nevertheless turn out to be true. Once again, Judyth has been vindicated, where what she

contributed to the previous post was blurbs about the contents of those book. I have known Doug Weldon to

be fair-minded in the past. I would like to have some indication that he is willing to respond to new evidence!

And in post #1651, I pointed out that the theory of HARVEY & LEE is, if anything, even less "logical" than Judyth's story:

SOME REFLECTIONS ON THE APPEAL TO WHAT IS "LOGICAL" AND WHAT IS NOT

Truth can be stranger than fiction. When you look where you've been, sometimes

you had no idea where you were going. Judyth was talented at cancer research.

She was lured to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner. There was a problem with the

polio vaccine, which had to be treated covertly to avoid alarming the public. Dr.

Mary Sherman was engaged in research there. The experiments did involve mice

and monkeys. David Ferrie and others were involved in conducting that research.

It involved the use of a linear particle accelerator. Someone had to have assisted

her. Judyth and Lee were hired by Riley's on the same day. Judyth kept the time

cards and other records for Oswald. Anna Lewis has testified that she and David,

her husband, even "double-dated" with Judyth and Lee. Mary Sherman was killed,

apparently using a linear particle accelerator. The death scene at her apartment

was staged. Ochsner did inoculate his grandchildren, killing one, while inducing

polio in the other. Judyth does appear to have been summarily sacked after she

protested the use of a prisoner in a (fatal) experiment without informed consent.

David Ferrie appears to have been silenced; and Ruby, too, using the bio-weapon.

And a second "Judyth Vary Baker" was used to impersonate the real Judyth Vary.

What could be a greater stretch than the idea of "two Oswalds", both having the

same name, one called "Harvey", the other "Lee", who even attended the same

schools, though not at the same time, where one was born in Hungary, physically

unimposing but intellectually able, who spoke fluent Russian but could not drive,

while the other had a propensity for violence, could drive but could not speak any

Russian and who had no interest in political philosophy or matters intellectual,

both of whom had mothers by the same name, where one of them ("Lee") lost

a tooth at Beauregard Junior High School, but Lillian Murret, the aunt of the

other ("Harvey"), paid for his dental bill, where his brother, Robert, who looks

exactly like him, is not supposed to be related genetically and who could have

effortlessly impersonated him did not, even though, after the assassination, he

would give lectures and publish a book falsely blaming his brother for a crime

he did not commit, where not only Aunt Lillian but Robert, Marguerite, and

Marina all knew of the existence of both "Harvey" and "Lee", even though none

of them ever uttered a peep! Neither of these stories is "logical" in the sense

Jack intends. Yet, I submit, at least one of these stories appears to be true.

But, of course, as you demonstrate with every post, not only are you unwilling

to read DR. MARY'S MONKEY so you could be brought up-to-speed on some of

the most basic aspects of the case--where you seem to pride yourself on your

ignorance--but time after time, when one or another of your attacks upon her

has proven to be misguided--where you must have posted close to a hundred

by now, none of which appears to have been well-founded--you are not even

willing to concede that you were wrong--not about marmosets, not about the

reading list, not about the "index" in John's book, not about the wrong date of

the founding of the Warren Commission, not about the story of "Lee"'s missing

tooth, not about Judyth's eye-color study, not about her observations regarding

photographs upon which you have relied to make the case for "two Oswalds"--

the list goes on and on, Jack. You are not even willing to concede that HARVEY

& LEE presents a theory that is even more implausible on its face than Judyth's

story. Yet you persist in repeating ignorant claims that you would not make if

you had read Ed's book and attacking Judyth without acknowledging when she

has been right. These are not the signs of responsible research, Jack, but the

signs of someone whose commitment to a predetermined conclusion has far,

far exceeded his rational response to logic and evidence. Lifton can't save you,

either, because he confronts problems of credibility of his own. And where will

you be when he finally comes clean about HARVEY & LEE? I am sorry to say it,

Jack, but you are discrediting yourself with every post. Relative to the method

of tenacity, in contrast with scientific reasoning, you are, alas, the poster child!

Jim

Thanks, David. I find the most incredible of the items you list is that JVB was unaware

of the Garrison investigation back in 1967. Every newspaper and magazine and TV

newscast carried details daily. I even bought 3 month subscriptions to the New Orleans

Item and the New Orleans Times-Picayune to get fuller coverage. At that time the

assassination was fresh in everyone's minds, many of the players were still alive, and

even the grocery story tabloids had front page coverage every week. Knowing about

the CONTROVERSIAL Garrison trial was unavoidable. Garrison was even a guest on

the Carson Tonight show.

Someone who had personal acquaintances with David Ferrie, Guy Banister, Clay

Shaw, Lee Oswald, Reily Coffee, et al had to be living on another planet to be UNAWARE

of the Clay Shaw Trial. UNBELIEVABLE!

Jack

Kevin Greelee:

I just read your post (#1450, dated 4/21/10) which quotes two of my posts (on the Alt.conspiracy discussion group, now available via Google) --some ten years ago (specifically, one on 10/26/2000, and the other on 12/31/2001). These posts were written at a time not only when my recollections of my March 4 2000, conversation with Judyth were fresh in my mind, but also at a time when I probably had a thick pile of notes and transcript material at hand.

As you correctly quote, Judyth made the following assertions in that March, 2000 phone call:

ITEM: That she co-wrote a science fiction story with Lee Oswald

ITEM: That, to beef up security for Kennedy, Lee fomented the Adlai Stevenson incident in Dallas

ITEM: That she, Judyth, had been offered $1 million by some tabloid for her story

ITEM: That despite her connection with all these events back in 1963, she never heard of the Garrison investigation at the time it was occurring (starting around Feb 1967)

ITEM: That at the "cancer lab" at Dave Ferrie¹s apartment, they "processed" 4,000 mice per month.

ITEM: That she arranged to check Lee out of work (and so that's why the time clock records, to be found in the 26 volumes)

appear as they do. (To anyone interested: There are certain clusters of times,which--IMHO-- Judyth explains by inserting herself into a "story" built around that data).

ITEM: That in connection with her alleged knowledge of Lee's visit to lecture at the Jesuit college at Spring Hill, Alabama,

that Robert Kennedy made a phone call there. (Yes, dear reader, blink twice if you must, but no, you're not imagining what I just wrote:

in the March, 2000 phone call, Judyth alleged that Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General of the United States,

called the Jesuit College at which Oswald spoke, and for some undefined reason, in connection with LHO's visit there).

ITEM: That she (and her co-workers in Florida) "knew" the

assassination was going to happen, and so prepared to watch it on TV.

As you noted, the links to the full text of my two posts were:

for October 26,2000:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...ca7348809?hl=en

and for Dec 31 2001

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...c1cb707a4?hl=en

When I clicked on the links you provided, they came right up on my screen.

* * *

Again, thanks for your post, and for the URL links that bring these two posts--from 10 years ago--right onto the computer screen. I had completely forgotten about these details, or that I had analyzed the conversation I had had with Judyth in such detail, and, finally, that I had written these posts. Its hard to believe that ten years have passed!

And of course you are right: with regard to my own skepticism about Judyth and her various claims, it is incorrect for anyone to focus just on the "Cancun" matter as "the reason" I rejected her entire story (as if that was the only problem!). As these posts amply demonstrate, it was much more than her claim that Lee Oswald said that they (she and Judyth) would/should meet in Cancun (the resort which did not then exist, aside from whether some primitive village by that name did exist) that lay behind my own conclusions about Judyth--i.e., that she lacked credibility, could not/should not be taken seriously, and my own conclusions that she was a fantasist.

One other point: I am not saying any of these things to hurt anyone individually. Its just that I have spent too much time on the Kennedy case connecting the dots, and attempting to do real research--and believe me, that is hard enough--and so when some intruder enters the picture, claiming that they were “on the grassy knoll,” or “in the autopsy room” or—in this instance—in the life of Lee Oswald, (who was, obviously, a major player in this affair, even if he was framed for a crime he did not commit) I must raise my hand and say “I object.” It is easy to argue about the evidence with someone with whose theories I disagree. But I simply cannot and will not stand idly by and watch someone mess up the historical record by bearing false witness.

DSL

4/26/10; 2 AM

Los Angeles, CA

Edited April 27, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Kathleen Collins]

Kathy,

I asked you a question, "Have you ever done any research?"

You made the assertion, "Don't say I never did any research."

Well, I didn't. I thought you made a very odd and baseless

insinuation that Judyth had to direct me. I resented that.

It had no foundation. She doesn't even have the book. I'd

meant to thank you for "THE END". Let me thank you now.

Jim

OK. I figured you and Judyth were far apart geographically, and she was telling you by phone or email what issues in the book to bring up.

We're friends.

Kathy C

[Glenn Viklund]

Evan

My apologies.

Glenn

[Glenn Viklund]

Evan,

Frankly, I had wondered what had become of you. This guy must have put up at least twenty (20) of these petty, juvenile, self-absorbed, belittling, repetitive and harassing posts. I would appreciate it if you would work backwards from his latest infantile assault and consider whether he has so or has not so massively violated forum rules that he deserves the boot. I believe that he does. I also think it's obvious.

Jim

Glenn,

I have had to remove bad language from your post, and your tone is bordering on insulting / attacking a member. Please carefully consider your choice of words.

Also, although not active, Judyth is a member here and therefore the provisions of rule (iv) apply.

Thank you.

And while Evan is cleaning up, he should have a look at the several dozens of postings where you are breaking forum rules by questioning the motives of mine and others. Starting from the first day I was registred at Edu.

[Stephen Roy]

When it came out in about 1995, I obtained Haslam's "Mary, Ferrie and the Monkey Virus" (MFMV). Concerned about the book's thinness of evidenciary support for its assertions, I wrote about it on the JFK forums of the time, and again over the years (such as a 2004 Education Forum thread.) I was admonished recently to obtain the latest edition, "Dr. Mary's Monkey" (DMM), which I have done.

First, DMM is absolutely an updated edition of MFMV; Large chunks of text are transposed from the latter to the former. My remarks here concern Haslam's material, not the added material concerning Baker.

Nothing in DMM changes my original feelings about MFMV. It is largely a personal recollection of the author's impressions and conclusions over much of his lifetime, as opposed to the more common recitation of evidence and statements of conclusions. What troubled me in the first edition still troubles me: One searches in vain for the evidence to support various conclusions. The author's impressions become suspicions; those suspicions become specific questions; and those questions harden into conclusions. (I stand corrected on one difference: The first edition stated those questions in boldface; the new edition does it as part of the text.)

The evidence for the story of the "underground laboratory" is a case in point. On pages 42-47 he is told by a high school student that Ferrie had "a full scale laboratory in his apartment with thousands of mice in cages." On page 49, he is told by his mother that Dr. Mary Sherman "was involved in David Ferrie's underground medical laboratory." Then, page 60, he relates New Orleans DA Jim Garrison's Playboy interview, that Sherman was associated with Ferrie. (Curiously, there is not a mention of Sherman anywhere in Garrison's existing files.) On page 63, the author asks: "Who was Dr. Mary Sherman? And what was she doing in David Ferrie's underground medical laboratory?" Page 64: "What was a highly-trained medical professional with impeccable credentials doing in an underground medical laboratory run by a political extremist with no formal medical training?" A story that such a lab existed has now become fact; and Sherman's connection with it now has become fact.

In 1972, he visited an apartment at 3225 Louisiana Avenue Parkway with "Barbara", and he notices a "musty smell." He is told that terrible men did terrible things to animals here, and he remembers Ferrie's "secret laboratory" (page 76). Around that time, a waterbed leaked and caused damage, but the landlord didn't seem overly concerned. But to the author, "it was clear that this was no ordinary apartment", page 86. A few years later, he learns that Ferrie lived in the area, but at 3330, not at 3225. Page 89: "Then it hit me: Ferrie's underground medical laboratory was not in his apartment, and he did not have to live in the lab. He lived near the lab, so he could manage its day-to-day operations, and kept a small number of mice mice back at his apartment for convenience. No, I had not been in Ferrie's apartment: I had been in his laboratory!"

(Incidentally, I am mentioned - not by name - in a footnote. "One JFK researcher, who has interviewed a lot of Ferrie's 'young male friends' about this points out that none of them recall seeing mice at Ferrie's apartment on Louisiana Avenue Parkway in the summer of 1963. Even Perry Russo, a witness I interviewed who had seen mice at a previous apartment, said that he did not see any in Ferrie's apartment when he attended a party there in the summer of 1963." The author asked Baker about this, and later concluded that Ferrie "realized that having a bunch of people seeing mice at his apartment was not good security, so he moved the mice...to the apartment across the street.")

(Also, let me reiterate what I have said before: Some claim that Garrison saw mice in Ferrie's apartment after Ferrie's death in 1967. Garrison, who was there only a couple of days after Ferrie's death, only claimed that there was a smell of mice. The first responding police, medical personnel, coroner's personnel and Assistant District Attorneys saw no mice or cages there. They are not mentioned in the reports or seen in the pictures, and none of them recalled such a thing in interviews. One police officer said the only trace of an animal he recalled was a dog dish on the floor.)

The author suspects that a linear particle accelerator was used to kill Sherman (page 232), so he begins looking around New Orleans for one. He hears that secret activity MAY have occurred at the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital (page 255). His friend tracks down a former building manager, who says that the hospital had a room with thick walls and high-voltage wiring. The author says (page 258) "That's it...That's the building the accelerator was in...It matches the description that was given by my source. It's exactly what we were looking for." On page 259, it becomes a fact: :'The accelerator had been located in the Infectious Disease Laboratory of the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital...a 5,000,000 volt linear particle accelerator had been quietly placed on the grounds of the U.S. Health Service Hospital so that cancer-causing monkey viruses could be roasted with radiation in secret."

One of the chapters in DMM is "A Bishop in his Heart", a quick bio of David Ferrie, based largely on a report commissioned when his former employer was looking for dirt on Ferrie. Some of the info is fairly related by the author, but some is just plain wrong. He has Ferrie in Retalhuleu, Guatemala training pilots for the Bay of Pigs invasion, but Ferrie's work record with Eastern Air Lines for that period precludes any sort of extended stay there. He also uses info from Robert Morrow's "First Hand Knowledge" which I consider unreliable.

I'll have more comments as I read more. I can't say for sure if Haslam is on to something or not, but I find it difficult to have confidence in the scarcity of the evidence he cites. I recommend that interested readers seek alternate primary sources wherever possible.