Robert Harris's Broken 3rd Floor Daltex Window Theory Blown Out Of The Water

[Bill Miller]

Bill, you seem to be really struggling with this question. Perhaps, this short animation will help you,

Robert, I have no intention on wasting time repeating myself over and over to someone who has no intention of listening. You continue to say that 'yes Connally was hit at Z223/224', but then you apply that Nellie was speaking of a latter time of hearing a second shot and her husband being shot and that is simply not supported by the total evidence. The second loud noise that Nellie said she heard was the one that hit her husband in the back and exited his chest ... thus there can be no confusing when that occurred for Connally only took one bullet in the back.

Here is her HSCA testimony:

Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard--you know how we were seated in the car, the President and Mrs. Kennedy, John was in front of the President and I was seated in front of Mrs. Kennedy--I heard a noise that I didn't think of as a gunshot. I just heard a disturbing noise and turned to my right from where I thought the noise had come and looked in the back and saw the President clutch his neck with both hands.

He said nothing. He just sort of slumped down in the seat. John had turned to his right also when we heard that first noise and shouted, "no, no, no," and in the process of turning back around so that he could look back and see the President--I don't think he could see him when he turned to his right--the second shot was fired and hit him. He was in the process of turning, so it hit him through this shoulder, came out right about here.

I also posted what was said about Connally turning to his left and then back to his right when he got hit ... the same hit in the back that Nellie told the HSCA about. I posted early on about the problems with resting one's hat on what a witness said without applying it to all the evidence. The Life interview was done with Connally examining the Zapruder transparencies and he made it clear about what he meant about his turning his head and not his body ... all done with Nellie sitting right there next to him. It is their more precise statements concerning what they had meant that tells me that you are in error. Your argument is not with me, but rather with the Connally's in my view.

Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

Bill, you seem to be really struggling with this question. Perhaps, this short animation will help you,

Robert, I have no intention on wasting time repeating myself over and over to someone who has no intention of listening. You continue to say that 'yes Connally was hit at Z223/224', but then you apply that Nellie was speaking of a latter time of hearing a second shot and her husband being shot and that is simply not supported by the total evidence. The second loud noise that Nellie said she heard was the one that hit her husband in the back and exited his chest ... thus there can be no confusing when that occurred for Connally only took one bullet in the back.

Bill, there is no confusion at all about when that occurred. We both realize that he was hit at 223. The issue is not about what happened, but what Mrs. Connally thought happened. And there is no doubt whatsoever, that she was unaware that he was hit then.

Here is her HSCA testimony:

Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard--you know how we were seated in the car, the President and Mrs. Kennedy, John was in front of the President and I was seated in front of Mrs. Kennedy--I heard a noise that I didn't think of as a gunshot. I just heard a disturbing noise and turned to my right from where I thought the noise had come and looked in the back and saw the President clutch his neck with both hands.

Yes, and since you refuse to answer the question, she looked back and could see JFK at about frame 258. This was 33 frames AFTER her husband had been wounded, and PRIOR to the shot that she believed had caused his wounds.

He said nothing. He just sort of slumped down in the seat. John had turned to his right also when we heard that first noise and shouted, "no, no, no," and in the process of turning back around so that he could look back and see the President--I don't think he could see him when he turned to his right--the second shot was fired and hit him. He was in the process of turning, so it hit him through this shoulder, came out right about here.

LISTEN to me Bill, and LEARN.

Mr. and Mrs. Connally contradicted each other on one critical point. She said,

"I recall John saying 'Oh, no, no, no, no, no'. Then there was a second shot, and it hit John."

But John was the guy who got shot, so he knew better. He said,

"I immediately, when I was hit, I said, 'Oh, no, no, no'"

Now, I realize that you will probably play dumb and pretend you don't get it, so to make this crystal clear for you, he knew that he shouted AFTER he was shot. Nellie thought he got shot AFTER he shouted. He began to shout circa frame 240. Are you getting this Bill???

NELLIE THOUGHT HE WAS HIT BY THE SHOT AT 285 AND DIDN'T REALIZE THAT HE WAS HIT EARLIER.

And none of this requires us to trust anyone's testimony. We can see when Nellie looked back at JFK and see that she was not concerned about her husband, up to the point when she spun around to him and pulled him back to her - after which, she never looked back at JFK again.

And she began that final turn back to her husband, within 1/18th of a second of the frame which Dr. Alvarez identified as the beginning of Zapruder's reaction to the loud noise that he (Alvarez) identified at 285 and 1/18th of a second after Jackie's reaction began, and 1/18th of a second before Kellerman's and Greer's reactions began. WOW! Ain't those coincidences amazing!

Bill, you have evaded every one of my questions and pretended that you don't comprehend any of this. I just don't believe you could be that stupid. Why don't you stop making BS excuses and deal with this issue honestly?

Edited October 23, 2010 by Robert Harris

[John Dolva]

That's what I meant with the denser horizontal strip indicating the gathering of the slats from bottom up as a blind like that is raised.

[Pat Speer]

Robert, as you mentioned earlier, the whole Dal-Tex/broken windows thing was started by Josiah Thompson in SSID, when he incorrectly claimed Mudd had said the windows in the Dal-Tex were broken, when Mudd--as I later pointed out to Thompson on this Forum--actually claimed the broken windows were in the "building nearby". In the context of the full FBI report, moreover, this is clearly a reference to the Texas School Book Depository.

Now, part of this confusion, I suspect, came from Thompson's incorrect notion Mudd was standing in front of the TSBD--which would make the Dal-Tex Building "nearby". But, as I first proposed, and as has now become widely accepted, he was really standing on the steps west of the TSBD with Emmett Hudson. This would make the TSBD "nearby".

Read the report again and see if you don't agree.

(1-28-64 FBI report on an interview with F. Lee Mudd, 24H538) “On November 22, 1963, he was in Dallas, Texas, on a business trip to purchase clothing for his store. He operates the Southside Ranch, 9066 Mansfield Road, Shreveport, Louisiana, a western store. While in Dallas he decided to watch the parade for President Kennedy. At about noon, he was watching the parade from a position on the north side of Elm Street and some 75 to 100 feet west of a building, which he later learned was the Texas School Book Depository. He saw the president’s car approaching from the east on Elm Street in the parade, and he recognized President Kennedy and saw him waving to the crowd. When the President’s car was some 50 or more feet away from him, he heard what sounded to him like two gunshots, and he saw the President slump. Immediately thereafter, he observed the President’s car pull out of the line of the parade and continue west on Elm Street toward the underpass. When the President’s car came abreast of Mudd, he could see the President slumped down toward his wife, who was leaning over him. He recalled seeing another man in the car, whom he did not recognize at the time but whom he later learned was Governor Connally and this man appeared to be holding one arm to his side. However he did not notice this man much because his attention was focused on the President. Mr. Mudd stated he definitely recalls hearing two shots probably less than a second apart. He said there may have been a third shot fired, but he could not be sure of this. He stated that immediately after the shots were fired, some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself, inasmuch as the shots alarmed him and he did not know what had happened or where the shots had come from. He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building. Mr. Mudd stated that he remained in the vicinity for possibly three or four minutes, after which he walked back toward the main part of town, where he had parked his car. He did not remain to talk to police or Secret Service men because he did not feel he had seen anything that would be of assistance to them. Mr. Mudd said that he was not with anyone else at the time this occurred. He said he later made another trip to Dallas, accompanied by his wife, and he showed her the place where the assassination occurred, and he observed the Texas School Book Depository building and he is confident this is the same building he was standing near at the time of the assassination. Mr. Mudd said he could furnish no further information regarding this matter."

Edited October 23, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Robert Harris]

Robert, as you mentioned earlier, the whole Dal-Tex/broken windows thing was started by Josiah Thompson in SSID, when he incorrectly claimed Mudd had said the windows in the Dal-Tex were broken, when Mudd--as I later pointed out to Thompson on this Forum--actually claimed the broken windows were in the "building nearby". In the context of the full FBI report, moreover, this is clearly a reference to the Texas School Book Depository.

Now, part of this confusion, I suspect, came from Thompson's incorrect notion Mudd was standing in front of the TSBD--which would make the Dal-Tex Building "nearby". But, as I first proposed, and as has now become widely accepted, he was really standing on the steps west of the TSBD with Emmett Hudson. Which would make the TSBD "nearby".

Read the report again and see if you don't agree.

(1-28-64 FBI report on an interview with F. Lee Mudd, 24H538) “On November 22, 1963, he was in Dallas, Texas, on a business trip to purchase clothing for his store. He operates the Southside Ranch, 9066 Mansfield Road, Shreveport, Louisiana, a western store. While in Dallas he decided to watch the parade for President Kennedy. At about noon, he was watching the parade from a position on the north side of Elm Street and some 75 to 100 feet west of a building, which he later learned was the Texas School Book Depository. He saw the president’s car approaching from the east on Elm Street in the parade, and he recognized President Kennedy and saw him waving to the crowd. When the President’s car was some 50 or more feet away from him, he heard what sounded to him like two gunshots, and he saw the President slump. Immediately thereafter, he observed the President’s car pull out of the line of the parade and continue west on Elm Street toward the underpass. When the President’s car came abreast of Mudd, he could see the President slumped down toward his wife, who was leaning over him. He recalled seeing another man in the car, whom he did not recognize at the time but whom he later learned was Governor Connally and this man appeared to be holding one arm to his side. However he did not notice this man much because his attention was focused on the President. Mr. Mudd stated he definitely recalls hearing two shots probably less than a second apart. He said there may have been a third shot fired, but he could not be sure of this. He stated that immediately after the shots were fired, some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself, inasmuch as the shots alarmed him and he did not know what had happened or where the shots had come from. He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building. Mr. Mudd stated that he remained in the vicinity for possibly three or four minutes, after which he walked back toward the main part of town, where he had parked his car. He did not remain to talk to police or Secret Service men because he did not feel he had seen anything that would be of assistance to them. Mr. Mudd said that he was not with anyone else at the time this occurred. He said he later made another trip to Dallas, accompanied by his wife, and he showed her the place where the assassination occurred, and he observed the Texas School Book Depository building and he is confident this is the same building he was standing near at the time of the assassination. Mr. Mudd said he could furnish no further information regarding this matter."

Pat, my analysis had nothing to do with Thompson's quote. Someone else raised that issue and I pointed out that Tink misquoted the FBI report.

It does seem though, that at the time the report was made, the feds were saying that Mudd knew the TSBD by name. So, it would seem unlikely that he would describe the depository as "the building nearby". However, I have never used that report to support my argument because it certainly is ambiguous.

[Robert Harris]

Duncan, your image is ridiculously blurry and there is no stack of boxes up there, no matter how many white lines you insert that have no relationship to anything in the picture. But hey! Since Duke sees a live human in that window, maybe his little guy is stacking those boxes up!

Why do you guys see everything up there except what it obviously is?

[Duke Lane]

And why don't you share with us, the data which convinced you that most blinds in 1963, were made of steel??? Surely, you wouldn't have just blurted out something like that without confirming the accuracy of your assertion, would you?

And finally, your assertion that I failed because you think I couldn't prove that there wasn't a human in that window, is about the lamest rebuttal I have heard in a very long time, especially since you flatly refused to demonstrate that such a thing was even possible.

And then you refused to talk about additional evidence which proved that the early shots came from a suppressed weapon and that JFK clearly reacted to an early shot during the Towner film.

I love how you then proceed to declare that you have "won" our debate, after running from every significant issue that we discussed

We have clearly not been part of the same thread.

The only significant issue has to do with the blinds; I'm clueless how I've "run from" that, or any part of it. But if you feel better asserting that, who am I to argue?

You said that there was "ONLY one" conclusion to be reached; I suggested several others, including the possibility of there being a human figure there in the window, which I clearly stated was nothing more than that: a possibility. You said that if that were so, he didn't move for 3½ hours, tho' your assertion is based on something I can't and couldn't see, but I nevertheless conceded that if in fact the figure was there and in the same position in a later photo, it probably wasn't human, but didn't eliminate the possibility of something inanimate between the window and the blinds.

In any event, you've not proven that there was the same image in the same window 3½ hours later, you've merely said that you see it there. You haven't proven or even shown conclusively that the cord/ribbon was broken and couldn't have been merely pushed aside by something between the window and the blind (tho' you've asserted that you don't think that could be the case, and invited me to prove that it could be), nor have you shown that the window was broken such that a weapon could be fired through it.

You've griped above about my making an assertion that most venetian blinds were metal in the early '60s, while you've made the assertion that plastic was as (or nearly as) prevalent then as now, and therefore the blinds were plastic until and unless someone else proves that they weren't. Apparently, for you, assertions you make are established fact; contrary assertions made by others are "just plain silly."

My input has addressed only whether your conclusion is the "ONLY one" or even (in your toned down version) "the only sensible solution," which I now concede it is ... the only conclusion that makes sense to you, anything else being "just plain silly." That's mighty good Kool-Aid.

You would rather take the discussion afield and demand answers about JFK's reactions when, even allowing for such reactions, it doesn't by any means address the source of those reactions, which could have been what you assert or something completely different.

Stipulating JFK's reaction does not validate your conclusion, and arguing about whether he did react does not address "the only sensible conclusion" you've drawn. It's beyond the scope (pardon the pun) of the issue of the window: only once you've proven that the window is a possible or probable shooting site do JFK's reactions matter at all.

This has, to my thinking and as far as my intent has ever been, only ever been about whether there was only "ONE conclusions" or "ONE sensible conclusion," or whether there were other possibilities. I'm not out to prove anything other than that there are other possibilities; I'm not out to prove what the actual fact is. That's your job: it's your conclusion, not mine.

Just as you can't believe that I'd make an assertion I didn't have data on, I'm presuming that you wouldn't do so either, so since it's your theory that the blinds were broken, and your theory that the blinds could be broken because it's your theory that the blinds were plastic, on what data is your theory based? Surely, you wouldn't have just blurted out something like that without confirming the accuracy of your assertion, would you?

I've merely challenged that assertion: I don't believe it's true, and my experience tells me otherwise, and even if there were plastic blinds in existence at that time, it by no means tells me that they were the preferred material for blinds in a commercial/industrial setting or anywhere else. You make me believe your theory rather than simply asserting it's true or "must" be true until someone proves you wrong beyond all doubt.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, nicht wahr? After you, Sir Goose.

[Duke Lane]

Duncan, your image is ridiculously blurry and there is no stack of boxes up there, no matter how many white lines you insert that have no relationship to anything in the picture. But hey! Since Duke sees a live human in that window, maybe his little guy is stacking those boxes up!

Why do you guys see everything up there except what it obviously is?

Leaving aside the first part of the post about what I "see," perhaps the problem is that what there is in that window isn't "obvious" at all (except perhaps to a privileged few).

If the third floor was used for "storage" - what kind of storage, do you know? Do you know without question that it was used for storage? - is there any reason to think that it could not have been for boxed items of some sort, including office records or any of a gazillion other things?

Saying it "could be" boxes differs dramatically from saying it is boxes; saying it's not boxes, no-how, no way is saying that it's not possible. On what basis is it "not possible?"

[Robert Harris]

Whatever you say, Duke

Hey! Why didn't you answer the question about your conspiracy theories?? I've always found that when I asked other CT's about theirs, my biggest problem was how to shut them up.

Why are you being so bashful?

I'm not being sarcastic here. I really want to hear why you are convinced that others were involved in the attack and perhaps, who you think they were. Also, where do you think the shots were fired from? I presume you're ruling out the Daltex? One of the storm drains maybe? The knoll?

Oh, and by the way, I was absolutely wrong about plastic being used in venetian blinds in 1963. But the most common metal used in blinds was not steel either, as you suggested. It was aluminum, which was typically 20 gauge, and easily cut with a pair of scissors.

[Duke Lane]

Why does this seem so much like trying to "convince" someone who thinks Oswald did it alone and unaided that it wasn't like that at all? So certain that the facts back them 100%, there is no room for consideration of any other data.

Why didn't you answer the question about your conspiracy theories?? I've always found that when I asked other CT's about theirs, my biggest problem was how to shut them up. Why are you being so bashful?

I'm not being sarcastic here. I really want to hear why you are convinced that others were involved in the attack and perhaps, who you think they were. Also, where do you think the shots were fired from? I presume you're ruling out the Daltex? One of the storm drains maybe? The knoll?

I didn't answer for two reasons: first, this is not a thread about my theories, but about Robert Harris's Dal-Tex Broken Window Theory (not even about JFK's reactions to anything, despite its wending its way into it); and second, there are enough other of my posts outlining my thoughts on this forum that I have neither the time, inclination, nor desire to repeat them, or even synopsize them again here and now.

If you're that interested, read them.

(Sorry to disappoint by not being like others who won't shut up, but I don't think very many people here would ever suggest that I'm "bashful!")

Oh, and by the way, I was absolutely wrong about plastic being used in venetian blinds in 1963. But the most common metal used in blinds was not steel either, as you suggested. It was aluminum, which was typically 20 gauge, and easily cut with a pair of scissors.

Did I say steel? Probably because I didn't think aluminum was in that widespread use back then, and I was fairly certain that they weren't made of tin (like cans used to be before they started being made with aluminum); some sort of "spring steel" or steel strapping made sense to me. I think I did say that I was making my points "on the fly," "off the cuff," or some other phrase that would suggest that this wasn't a heavily researched topic by any means.

In any case, I believe that most of my replies refer to them as "metal," but no matter what the actual metal was, they weren't plastic.

As to their being "easily cut with a pair of scissors," I'll put that alongside the "plastic" assertion: sounds like it might make sense, but who knows for sure? Never tried it myself.

[Robert Harris]

Why does this seem so much like trying to "convince" someone who thinks Oswald did it alone and unaided that it wasn't like that at all? So certain that the facts back them 100%, there is no room for consideration of any other data.

Why didn't you answer the question about your conspiracy theories?? I've always found that when I asked other CT's about theirs, my biggest problem was how to shut them up. Why are you being so bashful?

I'm not being sarcastic here. I really want to hear why you are convinced that others were involved in the attack and perhaps, who you think they were. Also, where do you think the shots were fired from? I presume you're ruling out the Daltex? One of the storm drains maybe? The knoll?

I didn't answer for two reasons: first, this is not a thread about my theories, but about Robert Harris's Dal-Tex Broken Window Theory (not even about JFK's reactions to anything, despite its wending its way into it); and second, there are enough other of my posts outlining my thoughts on this forum that I have neither the time, inclination, nor desire to repeat them, or even synopsize them again here and now.

If you're that interested, read them.

(Sorry to disappoint by not being like others who won't shut up, but I don't think very many people here would ever suggest that I'm "bashful!")

Oh, and by the way, I was absolutely wrong about plastic being used in venetian blinds in 1963. But the most common metal used in blinds was not steel either, as you suggested. It was aluminum, which was typically 20 gauge, and easily cut with a pair of scissors.

Did I say steel? Probably because I didn't think aluminum was in that widespread use back then, and I was fairly certain that they weren't made of tin (like cans used to be before they started being made with aluminum); some sort of "spring steel" or steel strapping made sense to me. I think I did say that I was making my points "on the fly," "off the cuff," or some other phrase that would suggest that this wasn't a heavily researched topic by any means.

In any case, I believe that most of my replies refer to them as "metal," but no matter what the actual metal was, they weren't plastic.

As to their being "easily cut with a pair of scissors," I'll put that alongside the "plastic" assertion: sounds like it might make sense, but who knows for sure? Never tried it myself.

Duke, I'm sorry that you refuse to answer my very simple questions. In fact, the one I asked you about where you believe the shots came from, is highly relevant to this conversation, as is the question about whether you believe other shooters were involved.

But I am not about to waste my time, endlessly dealing with goofy claims about either people or boxes being piled up in that window. I cannot prove that we are not seeing Santa Claus, a herd of buffalo or a leprachaun in that window either, but I trust my readers to be bright enough to see for themselves that such things are just not present there.

And it is disingenuous to argue that since I cannot prove that various things were not there, that I must be wrong. Where do we draw the line? How do we "prove" that Oswald was holding a rifle in the backyard photos? Maybe I think it's just a tree branch and you can't prove I'm wrong.

My argument is that there is no plausible alternative explanation to the blinds being damaged and the top and bottom of the leftmost cord being disrupted. How the term, "plausible" is defined, is the subjective choice of each reader. I can only say that anyone who thinks he is seeing people or boxes in that window is probably not going to be interested in anything else I have to say, anyway.

[Robert Harris]

Bill, you seem to be really struggling with this question. Perhaps, this short animation will help you,

Robert, I have no intention on wasting time repeating myself over and over to someone who has no intention of listening. You continue to say that 'yes Connally was hit at Z223/224', but then you apply that Nellie was speaking of a latter time of hearing a second shot and her husband being shot and that is simply not supported by the total evidence. The second loud noise that Nellie said she heard was the one that hit her husband in the back and exited his chest ... thus there can be no confusing when that occurred for Connally only took one bullet in the back.

Bill, there is no confusion at all about when that occurred. We both realize that he was hit at 223. The issue is not about what happened, but what Mrs. Connally thought happened. And there is no doubt whatsoever, that she was unaware that he was hit then.

Here is her HSCA testimony:

Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard--you know how we were seated in the car, the President and Mrs. Kennedy, John was in front of the President and I was seated in front of Mrs. Kennedy--I heard a noise that I didn't think of as a gunshot. I just heard a disturbing noise and turned to my right from where I thought the noise had come and looked in the back and saw the President clutch his neck with both hands.

Yes, and since you refuse to answer the question, she looked back and could see JFK at about frame 258. This was 33 frames AFTER her husband had been wounded, and PRIOR to the shot that she believed had caused his wounds.

He said nothing. He just sort of slumped down in the seat. John had turned to his right also when we heard that first noise and shouted, "no, no, no," and in the process of turning back around so that he could look back and see the President--I don't think he could see him when he turned to his right--the second shot was fired and hit him. He was in the process of turning, so it hit him through this shoulder, came out right about here.

LISTEN to me Bill, and LEARN.

Mr. and Mrs. Connally contradicted each other on one critical point. She said,

"I recall John saying 'Oh, no, no, no, no, no'. Then there was a second shot, and it hit John."

But John was the guy who got shot, so he knew better. He said,

"I immediately, when I was hit, I said, 'Oh, no, no, no'"

Now, I realize that you will probably play dumb and pretend you don't get it, so to make this crystal clear for you, he knew that he shouted AFTER he was shot. Nellie thought he got shot AFTER he shouted. He began to shout circa frame 240. Are you getting this Bill???

NELLIE THOUGHT HE WAS HIT BY THE SHOT AT 285 AND DIDN'T REALIZE THAT HE WAS HIT EARLIER.

And none of this requires us to trust anyone's testimony. We can see when Nellie looked back at JFK and see that she was not concerned about her husband, up to the point when she spun around to him and pulled him back to her - after which, she never looked back at JFK again.

And she began that final turn back to her husband, within 1/18th of a second of the frame which Dr. Alvarez identified as the beginning of Zapruder's reaction to the loud noise that he (Alvarez) identified at 285 and 1/18th of a second after Jackie's reaction began, and 1/18th of a second before Kellerman's and Greer's reactions began. WOW! Ain't those coincidences amazing!

Bill, you have evaded every one of my questions and pretended that you don't comprehend any of this. I just don't believe you could be that stupid. Why don't you stop making BS excuses and deal with this issue honestly?

Take your time Bill.

[Bill Miller]

LISTEN to me Bill, and LEARN.

Mr. and Mrs. Connally contradicted each other on one critical point. She said,

"I recall John saying 'Oh, no, no, no, no, no'. Then there was a second shot, and it hit John."

But John was the guy who got shot, so he knew better. He said,

"I immediately, when I was hit, I said, 'Oh, no, no, no'"

Now, I realize that you will probably play dumb and pretend you don't get it, so to make this crystal clear for you, he knew that he shouted AFTER he was shot. Nellie thought he got shot AFTER he shouted. He began to shout circa frame 240. Are you getting this Bill???

Robert ... discussing this with you is a complete waste of time. Read the Life Magazine interview for it too is archived between here and Lancer's site. The purpose of that interview the author said was to dispel any misconceptions about the shooting concerning the Connally's take on it. It was to allow Connally (and Nellie) to be more precise because so many different interpretations were flying around as to what they believed had happened and when. As I recall it was Connally who said he said 'Oh no .......' as soon as he heard the first shot. I seem to recall that Connally spoke about him being behind the road sign. So in my view it matters little what you make out of the less than precise way the Commissions questioning went down and I instead rely more on the 1967 Life interview which allowed Connally to view each 4" x 6" transparency under high magnification and to comment on his thoughts. Nellie also spoke during that interview.

Just as researchers had taken Connally's statement of how he turned to his right to see if he could see JFK and wrongly attributed that move to the latter full body turn seen in the Zapruder film which had he of done, then he would have had no problem seeing the President ... let alone out of the corner of his eye. This kind of thing you are doing has been an ongoing hindrance to researchers from the beginning because so much was left up to interpretation. The Life interview set out to put an end to all that. I have ridden in the replica limo and I know that the way Nellie was sitting that she didn't have to turn her head to see the President. I understand you want to look for a head turn, but that is not what needed to happen and I believe this was quite clear after reading their Life Magazine interview. Nellie was looking in her husbands direction when she heard the shot and saw John hit in the shoulder. That interview coincided with the other evidence seen in the Zapruder film ... it does not coincide with your interpretation of the evidence. End of story!

I am sure it is no fun to make Youtube presentations only to find that you may have wasted your time and maybe this is why you grab onto a particular general reference to defend your conclusion. You have your take and I have mine ... readers can research the two and see if either one makes sense or neither.

Bill

Edited October 24, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

LISTEN to me Bill, and LEARN.

Mr. and Mrs. Connally contradicted each other on one critical point. She said,

"I recall John saying 'Oh, no, no, no, no, no'. Then there was a second shot, and it hit John."

But John was the guy who got shot, so he knew better. He said,

"I immediately, when I was hit, I said, 'Oh, no, no, no'"

Now, I realize that you will probably play dumb and pretend you don't get it, so to make this crystal clear for you, he knew that he shouted AFTER he was shot. Nellie thought he got shot AFTER he shouted. He began to shout circa frame 240. Are you getting this Bill???

Robert ... discussing this with you is a complete waste of time. Read the Life Magazine interview for it too is archived between here and Lancer's site. The purpose of that interview the author said was to dispel any misconceptions about the shooting concerning the Connally's take on it. It was to allow Connally (and Nellie) to be more precise because so many different interpretations were flying around as to what they believed had happened and when. As I recall it was Connally who said he said 'Oh no .......' as soon as he heard the first shot. I seem to recall that Connally spoke about him being behind the road sign. So in my view it matters little what you make out of the less than precise way the Commissions questioning went down and I instead rely more on the 1967 Life interview which allowed Connally to view each 4" x 6" transparency under high magnification and to comment on his thoughts. Nellie also spoke during that interview.

Just as researchers had taken Connally's statement of how he turned to his right to see if he could see JFK and wrongly attributed that move to the latter full body turn seen in the Zapruder film which had he of done, then he would have had no problem seeing the President ... let alone out of the corner of his eye. This kind of thing you are doing has been an ongoing hindrance to researchers from the beginning because so much was left up to interpretation. The Life interview set out to put an end to all that. I have ridden in the replica limo and I know that the way Nellie was sitting that she didn't have to turn her head to see the President. I understand you want to look for a head turn, but that is not what needed to happen and I believe this was quite clear after reading their Life Magazine interview. Nellie was looking in her husbands direction when she heard the shot and saw John hit in the shoulder. That interview coincided with the other evidence seen in the Zapruder film ... it does not coincide with your interpretation of the evidence. End of story!

I am sure it is no fun to make Youtube presentations only to find that you may have wasted your time and maybe this is why you grab onto a particular general reference to defend your conclusion. You have your take and I have mine ... readers can research the two and see if either one makes sense or neither.

Bill

Bill, you don't have a "take". You just run like hell and make up excuses for dodging every critical question related to this issue.

Why won't you answer my questions, Bill?

And would you please be specific about what you read in that Life article, which contradicted anything that the Connally's stated either in 1964 or in numerous interviews over the years since then? I certainly never saw such a thing, and I have to suspect that neither have you, or you would have cited the article, verbatim.

As for your claim that Mrs. Connally could see JFK without turning around, that is pure, unadulterated BS. Any idiot can see that she could not see JFK while she was looking forward, and we can SEE her turn to the rear to look at him - exactly as she said she did.

Furthermore, she could not have seen JFK with his arms to his neck, until after he was hit (duh..) at app. 223, when he actually did raise his arms. At that instant, she was looking fully forward.

The simple fact which you are trying so desperately to evade is, that during the assassination, Mrs. Connally was oblivious to her husband being wounded at the time he was actually hit, and that she didn't believe he was wounded until AFTER she heard the next shot, which provoked her to finally turn to him and pull him back to her.

And we would know that even if she had never testified or said a single word, because we can see her only glance briefly at JBC while his back was turned to her, and she was turning around to examine the President.

It is ridiculously obvious that she did not realize that he was hit at 223 and her testimony corroborates that fact.

You have evaded every question I have asked you Bill. And those questions are critically important. You cannot just blow off Nellie as another confused witness, because we can SEE her doing exactly what she said she did, and EXACTLY WHEN SHE SAID SHE DID IT.

That's what has you on the run, isn't it Bill?

Come on Bill! Man up, stop running and give us some straight answers to my very simple questions. Do you really think anyone is impressed by your endless, lame excuses?

[Pat Speer]

Robert, it's pretty clear that Connally yells out "My God! They're going to kill us all!" before Z-285. While Nellie Connally believed her husband yelled out "No, no, no" before he was hit, she always insisted he yelled out "My God..." after. This means that she believed he was hit seconds before Z-285. She told as much to the WC after viewing the film. Now, you might claim she was mistaken on a point or two. Most people do. But it's not quite kosher to pretend her statements and testimony support that she initially thought her husband was shot circa Z-285, after he yelled out "My God..."

I apologize in advance if I am misreading you, and you are not claiming she thought here husband was hit circa Z-285.

From patspeer.com, chapter 5b:

First Lady of Texas Nellie Connally sat directly to the left of her husband and directly in front of Jackie Kennedy: (11-22-63 WFAA report on a press conference given by Connally aide Julian Read, who had just spoken to Mrs. Connally.) “The car had turned to the left on Elm Street and was getting ready to go under the Triple Underpass. At that moment, Mrs. Connally said she heard a shot. Instantly, when she heard the shot, her husband turned to see what had happened and at that instant he too was shot. Mrs. Connally says she believes the first shot was the one that struck President Kennedy in the head. There was a second shot. That shot struck Governor Connally in the back, and coming out of his body in the right chest. There are reports of a third shot and Governor Connally has a wound on his wrist and that could be the result of that third pistol shot, although Mrs. Connally is not certain whether there was a third shot or not. She said immediately after the first shot Mrs. Kennedy grabbed her husband. After the second shot Mrs. Connally grabbed her husband. All four of them ducked down into the car to escape any further fusillade of shots.” (11-22-63 UPI article on Read’s press conference.) “Mrs. John Connally, wife of the wounded Governor of Texas, said today she thinks President Kennedy was shot first….(Quoting Read)'They got ready to go through the underpass. Mrs. Connally heard a shot. When the first shot was fired, Connally turned in his seat and almost instantly was hit. She does not know about the third shot. But it may have been the one that hit the governor’s wrist…Jackie grabbed the President and Mrs. Connally grabbed Connally and they both ducked down in the car…Mrs. Connally does not remember her husband saying anything.” (Notes written on 12-2-63, as reprinted in her book From Love Field, 2003) “then I heard a loud, terrifying noise…I turned and looked toward the President just in time to see him clutch his neck and see him sink down in his seat. There was no utterance of any kind from him…I had no sure knowledge as to what the noise was…Quickly, there was a second shot, John had turned to the right at the first shot to look back and then whirled to the left to get another look…John said, “No, No, No,” was hit himself by a second shot and said “My God, they are going to kill us all,” wheeled back to the right, crumpling his shoulders to his knees…I reached over and pulled him to me…Then came a third shot.” (12-13-63 FBI report, CD188, p.6-7) “she was facing the front of the car when the first shot was fired and turned to her right towards President Kennedy and saw him with his hand at his throat and then slump down. …almost immediately Governor Connally recoiled in the opposite direction from her and was heard to remark “My God, they are going to kill us all.” She had feelings that buck shot was falling all around them and then she realized it was probably brain matter from President Kennedy’s head…When asked about the lapse of time between the first and last shots she replied “About like saying “crack, crack, crack.” She sensed that Governor Connally had been hit when she heard the second shot and she turned to hold him…The direction of all shots were from somewhere to the rear of the car.”

(4-21-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 4H146-149) “When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said “Mr. President you can’t say Dallas doesn’t love you.” Then I don’t know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise…I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck…he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down. Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, “Oh, no, no, no.” Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, “My God, ,they are going to kill us all”…I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot…I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me…The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too, could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us...(The time between the first and second shot was) Very short. It seemed to me that there was less time between the first and the second than between the second and the third. (At the time of the first shot) The underpass was in sight…(When asked about the Zapruder film, she said she thought her husband was shot at frame) “229—it could have been through the next three to four frames.” (Article in McCall’s magazine, August, 1964) “in that instant the first shot rang out, I heard it and though I handle guns myself and am familiar with rifles, I did not in that split second realize it was gunfire…I looked directly at the President. He clutched his throat with both hands, and I felt sure he was dead. His face went blank. There was no pain or shock or fear just nothingness. His face was completely expressionless, as if the person had gone. Sitting on my right, John, the Governor, turned very fast to his right trying to look around at the President. Not getting him in his line of vision, he started turning to his left and the second bullet hit him. I heard John say, “They’re going to kill us all” He recoiled to his right and slumped over, still upright in his seat…I pulled him down onto my lap and bent over him…I heard the third shot and the Secret Service command to pull out of the motorcade and drive to the nearest hospital, but after John was hit, I didn’t look back again.” (11-25-66 article in Life magazine) “First I heard the shot, or a strange loud noise...back behind us. Then next I turned to my right and saw the President gripping at his throat. Then I turned back toward John, and I heard the second shot that hit John…I must have been looking right at him because I saw him recoil to the right.” (Interview with CBS broadcast 6-25 and 6-26-67) “They all came from the same direction….behind us, over my right shoulder. You see the first one, the first sound, the first shot, I heard and turned and looked right into the President’s face. So the sound drew me to that direction and had a definite reaction…He was clutching his throat, and just slumped down. He just had a - a look of nothingness on his face. He-he didn't say anything. But that was the first shot. The second shot, that hit John - well, of course, I could see him covered with - with blood, and his - his reaction to a second shot. The third shot, even though I didn't see the President, I felt the matter all over me, and I could see it all over the car. So I'll just have to say that I think there were three shots, and that I had a reaction to three shots. And - that's just what I believe.”

(9-6-78 testimony before the HSCA, Vol.1 p.11-59) “I heard a noise that I didn't think of as a gunshot. I just heard a disturbing noise and turned to my right from where I thought the noise had come and looked in the back and saw the President clutch his neck with both hands. He said nothing. He just sort of slumped down in the seat. John had turned to his right also when we heard that first noise and shouted, "no, no, no," and in the process of turning back around so that he could look back and see the President--I don't think he could see him when he turned to his right--the second shot was fired and hit him. He was in the process of turning, so it hit him through this shoulder, came out right about here. His hand was either right in front of him or on his knee as he turned to look so that the bullet went through him, crushed his wrist and lodged in his leg. And then he just recoiled and just sort of slumped in his seat. I thought he was dead…the only thing I could think of to do was to pull him down out of the line of fire…So, I pulled him down in my lap… I never looked back after John was hit. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "they have shot my husband.” Then, I heard a third shot and felt matter cover us and she said, "They have killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand". I thought John was dead, and I heard the Secret Service man say, "Let's get out of here quick." So, we pulled out of the motorcade and we must have been a horrible sight flying down that freeway with those dying men in our arms and going to no telling where.” (ABC News interview shown on the 20th and 25th anniversaries of the assassination, 1983) "I turned to look back at the President and saw him clutch his throat, and just sorta sink down. There was no sound. He said nothing. And John was turning around and then he was hit by--the second shot hit John. He collapsed, he just collapsed. And I reached over to pull him down into my lap, to get him out of the line of fire so they wouldn't hurt him anymore. And there was a third shot. This all happened very rapidly (snaps fingers snap snap) The third shot. There was matter all over the car. And that was the shot, of course, that hit the President. And I heard Jackie say 'My God, what have they done to you' and then later she said 'I've got his brains in my hand. It was a horrifying, horrible, horrible moment in history.' (Interview with Diane Sawyer on 60 Minutes, 1988) "And then the shot. I looked right at the President cause I was in the seat in front of Jackie, and I saw it--saw him clutch his throat. Then I heard the second shot and John just collapsed. I pulled him down and tried to cover him." (11-22-88 Interview on KTRK TV, as reported in an 11-23-88 AP article) "Nellie Connally recalled that she heard a noise and turned, but didn't realize it was gunfire. "John knew that it was a shot," she said. 'I just heard a noise and turned and saw the president clutch his throat and sink into the part of the car where he was sitting. Then I knew something terribly bad had happened." Nellie Connally said she pulled her husband into her lap after he was shot and kept telling him "it's going to be all right." At first I thought he was dead." She said once her husband was in her lap and she was hovering over him, a third shot rang out. "Then there was matter all over us and all over the car. I knew then that the president had to be — had to be dead."

(Interview with Larry King on CNN, January, 1992) "I turned at the first noise, but I didn't recognize it as a gunshot, just a noise. And I turned and I saw the President reach up and (unintelligible) clutch his throat. And he just sat down. He said nothing...Then there was the second shot--well, John was twirling around, and he was hit...He didn't hear the second bullet. You don't hear the one that hits you...All this happened in seconds. I reached over and grabbed him and pulled him down in my lap...I never looked back in the back again after I had John in my lap. But the third shot--all this matter and everything sprayed all over us." (Interview with Larry King on CNN, 7-4-2002, replayed 11-24-2002) “I heard this noise. And it came from the back of me. And I looked back toward the president and saw his hands just fly up to his neck and he slumped down. He said not one word…I didn’t know for sure that it was a gunshot when I heard it…It was just a noise. We had noises around. John knew it was a gunshot. And he turned to see the president…He couldn’t see him. So he whirled to the other side and he still couldn’t see him. And in the process of moving back, the second shot hit John…From the same place…Well, then we had a third shot…From the same place…bloody matter covered the car and covered all of us…Three shots, three reactions.” (When asked about the single-bullet theory) “That’s baloney.” (When asked about the possibility shots were fired from the knoll) “Well, maybe there was. But in my mind, by the time we passed the grassy knoll, got to the grassy knoll, everything that happened in that car had already happened.”

(From Love Field, 2003) “A moment later, a terrifying noise erupted behind us. Instinctively, I felt it was a gunshot. I looked back and saw the President’s hands fly up to his throat…From the corner of my eye, I saw my husband, John, turn clockwise in his seat…”No, no, no!” he cried out. Then—a second shot. My husband spun in his seat. He had been hit in the back by the second bullet. “My God,” he blurted, “they are going to kill us all!”—then crumpled forward…I pulled him into my lap…A third shot rang out.” (Interview with Houston PBS, 2003) "I heard this loud noise...When I heard this noise, it came over my right shoulder, and I turned around. And I didn't know at first what it was because the motorcycles, you know, backfire and make all that noise, But I knew it was not a good noise. And I turned back just in time to see the president's hands fly up to his neck and then he just sunk down a few inches in the car. John, who is seated in front of him...he knew that was a gunshot. And he turned to his right but he couldn't see the President who was directly behind him. So then he flipped to his left and he still couldn't see him and he said "No, no, no," and turned back. And when he got about half-way back the second shot hit John Connally and he said "My God, they're gonna kill us all!" And then just collapsed forward, blood everywhere. Now I know this takes longer than six seconds but it happened, all happened in six seconds ....I just pulled him over...across my lap...While I had him down there was the third shot...Tiny bloody matter was all over whatever part of the interior of the car there was and all over our clothes so I knew that had been a pretty powerful shot. That's the one that took the President's head...Jackie said, "They've killed my husband! I have his brains in my hand." That's when I knew it was head." (Interview on The View, 11-21-2003) "I heard this noise. I didn't know what it was but I tried to look at the President and his hands flew up to his neck and he sort of sunk down in his seat. He didn't say a word, but his eyes looked so troubled. John, who was seated in front of the President, knew it was a gun shot. He turned to his right--to see the President--but he couldn't see him. So he turned to his left--and he couldn't see him. On the way back--about midway--he was shot with the second shot...The third shot came, and I couldn't turn around because the weight of my husband in my lap. But I heard Jackie say 'They've killed my husband. I have his brains in my hand.' And then all around us--all over the car--was a bloody mass of--it looked like buckshot is the best way--all over the car and all over us and our clothes--and that was when the President took the third shot in the head." (Interview with Dan Rather on CBS, 11-21-03) "And I heard this loud noise. And I turned to look. I saw the President's hands fly up to his neck, and he just slumped down into the seat. The second shot came, and as John was hit he said "My God, they're gonna kill us all" and just fell over. (When asked about a third shot) "Yes. The word out of the back seat--I couldn't look--was Jackie saying "They've killed my husband. I have his brains in my hand." (From an 11-22-03 WBAP radio program on Youtube) "And I heard this loud noise that I was not certain what it was. But I turned toward the noise. When I turned I could look right at the President. And I saw his hands fly up to his neck. John, who sitting in front of him, turns to his left, and this takes seconds. And the second shot went through John Connally. He said 'My God, they're going to kill us all.' There was a third shot. The car was covered. We were covered with a bloody matter that I assumed was the President's head." (Interview with Larry King on CNN, 11-22-2003) "I heard this noise...I wasn't sure it was a gunshot because the motorcycles had been , you know, backfiring all around us. But I knew it was something and I turned and looked just in time to see his hands fly up to his face. And he just sunk down in the car. Said not a word. He had just a strange look in his eyes and said nothing...(My husband) turned quick...to his right and he couldn't see him because he was directly in front of him. And he said "No, no, no" and turned to his left and he still couldn't see him. Now this is a second or two. Then as he whirled back, the second shot hit John...It went under his shoulder, out through--under the nipple. It went through--it took out five inches of his fifth rib and went through one of his lungs...It crushed this wrist and, you know, shot the cufflink off...And then it landed in his leg...John said, "My God, they're going to kill us all," and just fell over. Blood everywhere.... There was a third shot...I heard the third shot and then, bloody matter, like buck shot, little pieces were all over the interior of the car, all over our clothes...(When asked about the single-bullet theory) "Well, let me ask you this, do you think a bullet that went through the president's neck can hang there in air between the two seats while John turned to the right, turned to the left and came back? That's what I asked the Warren Commission. I said, "I don't believe a bullet could do that." That bullet--the same bullet did not hit both of them." (11-23-2003 article in Dallas Morning News) “His hands flew up to his neck…and he sank down in his seat. He didn’t say a word…John…turned to his right, and couldn’t see him, so he flips to his left, and he still can’t see him. And he says, “No, no, no.” And when he was trying to turn back, the second shot came. John said “My God they’re trying to kill us all!”…Then he collapsed…he fell forward…Then came the third, most damaging shot.”

Edited October 24, 2010 by Pat Speer