Robert Harris's Broken 3rd Floor Daltex Window Theory Blown Out Of The Water

[Bill Miller]

My question was not about how you post quotations. My question was, what did Mrs. Connally say which convinced you that she was uncertain about when her husband said "Oh, no, no, no".

Or did you just make that up, Bill?

Why do you have to continually misrepresent the witnesses Bill? You've repeatedly misrepresented me and you've even misrepresented your own prior statements.

And you've evaded countless questions Bill.

Why don't you want to talk about Mrs. Connally's visible reaction 1/3rd of a second after the shot at 285, or the fact that it was in almost perfect unison with every other nonvictim in the limo? Or the fact that her reaction began at the same instant in which Zapruder's reaction began?

And why don't you want to talk about the fact that Mrs. Connally was adamant that she never looked to the rear again after she heard that shot?

Bill, she turned to the rear TWICE after 223 but we never see her turn back again after 285.

JBC began to shout at 242. Not only can we see that ourselves, but professional lip readers have confirmed it. But Nellie thought he was hit after that point, because she believed he was hit by the shot at 285.

Your greatest sin Bill, is that you couldn't care less about getting the truth. You want to "win" and "get Harris". You prove that by evading every important question you are asked, by misrepresenting me as well as key witnesses and by relying on childish insults when you are cornered.

If you want to prove me wrong, then you can start by agreeing to answer questions. Are you up to that Bill??

I didn't think so

Why must I prove you wrong - you do a good enough job of that. Nellie said she saw JFK with his hands up to his throat at the first shot and said the next shot hit her husband which caused him to recoil to the right. The start of all this comes at Z223/224 and she watched it unfold over the next few seconds until she said she reached out and pulled her husband back towards her. Nellie stated how it went down again for Life Magazine ... you just don't seem to get it. You seem to place her first knowing her husband was shot at the later film frame, but Connally is already turned to his right and slumped before Altgens took his photo so when Nellie said she heard the shot and seen her husband first do these things before she pulled Connally back towards her ... there is nothing else to debate.

Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

My question was not about how you post quotations. My question was, what did Mrs. Connally say which convinced you that she was uncertain about when her husband said "Oh, no, no, no".

Or did you just make that up, Bill?

Why do you have to continually misrepresent the witnesses Bill? You've repeatedly misrepresented me and you've even misrepresented your own prior statements.

And you've evaded countless questions Bill.

Why don't you want to talk about Mrs. Connally's visible reaction 1/3rd of a second after the shot at 285, or the fact that it was in almost perfect unison with every other nonvictim in the limo? Or the fact that her reaction began at the same instant in which Zapruder's reaction began?

And why don't you want to talk about the fact that Mrs. Connally was adamant that she never looked to the rear again after she heard that shot?

Bill, she turned to the rear TWICE after 223 but we never see her turn back again after 285.

JBC began to shout at 242. Not only can we see that ourselves, but professional lip readers have confirmed it. But Nellie thought he was hit after that point, because she believed he was hit by the shot at 285.

Your greatest sin Bill, is that you couldn't care less about getting the truth. You want to "win" and "get Harris". You prove that by evading every important question you are asked, by misrepresenting me as well as key witnesses and by relying on childish insults when you are cornered.

If you want to prove me wrong, then you can start by agreeing to answer questions. Are you up to that Bill??

I didn't think so

Why must I prove you wrong - you do a good enough job of that. Nellie said she saw JFK with his hands up to his throat at the first shot and said the next shot hit her husband which caused him to recoil to the right. The start of all this comes at Z223/224 and she watched it unfold over the next few seconds until she said she reached out and pulled her husband back towards her. Nellie stated how it went down again for Life Magazine ... you just don't seem to get it. You seem to place her first knowing her husband was shot at the later film frame, but Connally is already turned to his right and slumped before Altgens took his photo so when Nellie said she heard the shot and seen her husband first do these things before she pulled Connally back towards her ... there is nothing else to debate.

Bill Miller

May I take that to be a "no", Bill? You refuse to answer questions?

Why do you have to run from every important issue in this discussion Bill?

And why are distorting Mrs. Connally's testimony? You said,

"Nellie said she saw JFK with his hands up to his throat at the first shot and said the next shot hit her husband.."

She never said that she saw him "at" the first shot, did she Bill? And in fact, we KNOW when she looked back and saw JFK about 35 frames after the shot at 223, don't we Bill:ice

Then she heard the shot that she believed, hit her husband AFTER that, didn't she Bill?

And we see her react to that shot by spinning quickly toward her husband and pulling her back to him - exactly as she said she did and exactly when she said she did. And her reaction was in perfect unison with reactions by Greer, Kellerman, Mrs. Kennedy and Abraham Zapruder. They ALL began with the same 1/6th of a second.

Why do you ignore all of that Bill? Why do you ignore Nellie's statement that she never looked to the rear again after she heard that shot?

Why did Clint Hill leap from the running board just after 285 and then testify that JFK FIRST reacted to being wounded at the same time he jumped???

Listen to Charles Brehm stating that he was about "15-20 feet" from JFK when he heard the first shot. At 285, he was about 18 feet from him. Keep in mind that neither Brehm nor Hill heard heard any shots prior to 285. In fact, Brehm was still applauding as the limo passed by him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOht33whlXk

[Bill Miller]

My question was not about how you post quotations. My question was, what did Mrs. Connally say which convinced you that she was uncertain about when her husband said "Oh, no, no, no".

Or did you just make that up, Bill?

Why do you have to continually misrepresent the witnesses Bill? You've repeatedly misrepresented me and you've even misrepresented your own prior statements.

And you've evaded countless questions Bill.

I have repeatedly said for you to look through the threads mentioning Nellie and what she said and you will find it. It was a source from one of her interviews that I found on Lancer that I believe Ron Hepler posted. I do not feel obligated to go back and look for things so to please some screwball who continually does little more than throw dung at a wall to see if anything sticks that he can make unfounded allegations over. It is up to you to support the claims you have made - Greer shooting JFK - Daltex window broken out - JFK reacting to being hit in Towner ... they all have wasted enough time and all were shown to be bunk in my view. So if you feel that I am not jumping over your unsupported allegations, then so be it for you earned the right to be ignored.

Why don't you want to talk about Mrs. Connally's visible reaction 1/3rd of a second after the shot at 285, or the fact that it was in almost perfect unison with every other nonvictim in the limo? Or the fact that her reaction began at the same instant in which Zapruder's reaction began?

You are asking me to debate another one of your poor interpretations of the photographic record. Nellie said the second shot that hit her husband caused him to recoil to his right. I look at Nellie's field of view in the Zapruder film and it is my opinion that she could see both her husband and JFK before the first shot was fired right through to her husband recoiling to his right before she reached out and pulled him back towards her. I'm not going to debate where her eyes are looking because the Zapruder film isn't sharp enough to ever allow that to happen. Only a fool would attempt to sort knat dung out of pepper in that fashion.

JBC began to shout at 242. Not only can we see that ourselves, but professional lip readers have confirmed it. But Nellie thought he was hit after that point, because she believed he was hit by the shot at 285.

I can differentiate the difference between Connally uttering 'Oh no, no, no' when he heard the first shot from him 'yelling like a stuck pig' (as Jackie called it).

Your greatest sin Bill, is that you couldn't care less about getting the truth. You want to "win" and "get Harris". You prove that by evading every important question you are asked, by misrepresenting me as well as key witnesses and by relying on childish insults when you are cornered.

You have convinced me that you are a disgruntled individual. You call people names like "moron" and "idiot" and then complain about insults pertaining to your claims. That's whacked!!!

And why are distorting Mrs. Connally's testimony? You said,

"Nellie said she saw JFK with his hands up to his throat at the first shot and said the next shot hit her husband.."

She never said that she saw him "at" the first shot, did she Bill? And in fact, we KNOW when she looked back and saw JFK about 35 frames after the shot at 223, don't we Bill:ice

Before the HSCA, Nellie testified under oath that she saw the President clutch his neck. She didn't say 'clutching his neck', but rather this time she said she saw JFK clutch his neck.

Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard--you know how we were seated in the car, the President and Mrs. Kennedy, John was in front of the President and I was seated in front of Mrs. Kennedy--I heard a noise that I didn't think of as a gunshot. I just heard a disturbing noise and turned to my right from where I thought the noise had come and looked in the back and saw the President clutch his neck with both hands.

The Zapruder film and where Nellie is facing:

Z180 to Z187 is shown below. Nellie has her head turned to the right. I have sat in Nellie's seat in the replica car and my field of view when looking to my right allowed me to see both the seat Connally sat in and the seat JFK was sitting in. My peripheral vision could see both locations in that car and if someone sitting where JFK was at would raise their hands to their throat, then I would not have missed it. While I know that JFK didn't actually clutch his throat with his hands, but merely brought them up to his mouth ... would I be justified to believe that Nellie witnessed this with her peripheral vision ... I think her error in that one key point would be justification for leaning that way.

Nellie's field of view from Z183 to Z246:

In each frame I can see Nellie physically looking in the direction of her husband. Did she turn her attention towards the President ... at some point she did and she didn't have to turn her head to do it in my view. My point is that she could do all she said she did before her husband recoiled to his right between Z223 through Z236.

Listen to Charles Brehm stating that he was about "15-20 feet" from JFK when he heard the first shot. At 285, he was about 18 feet from him. Keep in mind that neither Brehm nor Hill heard heard any shots prior to 285. In fact, Brehm was still applauding as the limo passed by him.

Brehm said the car was "coming down the street" .... my understanding of the English language means that the car is coming towards he and his son.

I simply do not agree with your assessment.

Bill Miller

Edited November 2, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

My question was not about how you post quotations. My question was, what did Mrs. Connally say which convinced you that she was uncertain about when her husband said "Oh, no, no, no".

Or did you just make that up, Bill?

Why do you have to continually misrepresent the witnesses Bill? You've repeatedly misrepresented me and you've even misrepresented your own prior statements.

And you've evaded countless questions Bill.

I have repeatedly said for you to look through the threads mentioning Nellie and what she said and you will find it. It was a source from one of her interviews that I found on Lancer that I believe Ron Hepler posted. I do not feel obligated to go back and look for things so to please some screwball who continually does little more than throw dung at a wall to see if anything sticks that he can make unfounded allegations over. It is up to you to support the claims you have made - Greer shooting JFK - Daltex window broken out - JFK reacting to being hit in Towner ... they all have wasted enough time and all were shown to be bunk in my view. So if you feel that I am not jumping over your unsupported allegations, then so be it for you earned the right to be ignored.

Why don't you want to talk about Mrs. Connally's visible reaction 1/3rd of a second after the shot at 285, or the fact that it was in almost perfect unison with every other nonvictim in the limo? Or the fact that her reaction began at the same instant in which Zapruder's reaction began?

You are asking me to debate another one of your poor interpretations of the photographic record. Nellie said the second shot that hit her husband caused him to recoil to his right. I look at Nellie's field of view in the Zapruder film and it is my opinion that she could see both her husband and JFK before the first shot was fired right through to her husband recoiling to his right before she reached out and pulled him back towards her. I'm not going to debate where her eyes are looking because the Zapruder film isn't sharp enough to ever allow that to happen. Only a fool would attempt to sort knat dung out of pepper in that fashion.

JBC began to shout at 242. Not only can we see that ourselves, but professional lip readers have confirmed it. But Nellie thought he was hit after that point, because she believed he was hit by the shot at 285.

I can differentiate the difference between Connally uttering 'Oh no, no, no' when he heard the first shot from him 'yelling like a stuck pig' (as Jackie called it).

Your greatest sin Bill, is that you couldn't care less about getting the truth. You want to "win" and "get Harris". You prove that by evading every important question you are asked, by misrepresenting me as well as key witnesses and by relying on childish insults when you are cornered.

You have convinced me that you are a disgruntled individual. You call people names like "moron" and "idiot" and then complain about insults pertaining to your claims. That's whacked!!!

And why are distorting Mrs. Connally's testimony? You said,

"Nellie said she saw JFK with his hands up to his throat at the first shot and said the next shot hit her husband.."

She never said that she saw him "at" the first shot, did she Bill? And in fact, we KNOW when she looked back and saw JFK about 35 frames after the shot at 223, don't we Bill:ice

Before the HSCA, Nellie testified under oath that she saw the President clutch his neck. She didn't say 'clutching his neck', but rather this time she said she saw JFK clutch his neck.

Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard--you know how we were seated in the car, the President and Mrs. Kennedy, John was in front of the President and I was seated in front of Mrs. Kennedy--I heard a noise that I didn't think of as a gunshot. I just heard a disturbing noise and turned to my right from where I thought the noise had come and looked in the back and saw the President clutch his neck with both hands.

The Zapruder film and where Nellie is facing:

Z180 to Z187 is shown below. Nellie has her head turned to the right. I have sat in Nellie's seat in the replica car and my field of view when looking to my right allowed me to see both the seat Connally sat in and the seat JFK was sitting in. My peripheral vision could see both locations in that car and if someone sitting where JFK was at would raise their hands to their throat, then I would not have missed it. While I know that JFK didn't actually clutch his throat with his hands, but merely brought them up to his mouth ... would I be justified to believe that Nellie witnessed this with her peripheral vision ... I think her error in that one key point would be justification for leaning that way.

Nellie's field of view from Z183 to Z246:

In each frame I can see Nellie physically looking in the direction of her husband. Did she turn her attention towards the President ... at some point she did and she didn't have to turn her head to do it in my view. My point is that she could do all she said she did before her husband recoiled to his right between Z223 through Z236.

Listen to Charles Brehm stating that he was about "15-20 feet" from JFK when he heard the first shot. At 285, he was about 18 feet from him. Keep in mind that neither Brehm nor Hill heard heard any shots prior to 285. In fact, Brehm was still applauding as the limo passed by him.

Brehm said the car was "coming down the street" .... my understanding of the English language means that the car is coming towards he and his son.

I simply do not agree with your assessment.

Bill Miller

"I have repeatedly said for you to look through the threads mentioning Nellie and what she said and you will find it. It was a source from one of her interviews that I found on Lancer that I believe Ron Hepler posted. I do not feel obligated to go back and look for things"

You're as phony as a proverbial three dollar bill. She never in her life said what you claimed and you never cited her saying such a thing.

"I look at Nellie's field of view in the Zapruder film and it is my opinion that she could see both her husband and JFK before the first shot was fired right through to her husband recoiling to his right before she reached out and pulled him back towards her. I'm not going to debate where her eyes are looking because the Zapruder film isn't sharp enough to ever allow that to happen."

More bull. Even if you actually believed that she looked at JFk prior to 223, that wouldn't matter because she couldn't have seen him with his hands at throat level. That could ONLY have happened at 258. I can't believe how far you would go to deliberately misrepresent the events that day. You are absolutely pathetic.

"I can differentiate the difference between Connally uttering 'Oh no, no, no' when he heard the first shot from him 'yelling like a stuck pig' (as Jackie called it)."

So, you can "differentiate the difference", can you? What is your first language Bill? And what the hell is your point? This gibberish doesn't say anything. JBC shouted "Oh, no, no.." and the "kill us all" statement. Obviously Jackie was referring to those sentences.

"My point is that she could do all she said she did before her husband recoiled to his right between Z223 through Z236."

That may be your "point" but your point is wrong and is a deliberate distortion. You know very well that she could not have seen JFK prior to 258. And even if you actually believed that she could, she certainly didn't react to a gunshot by pulling her husband back to her then.

"Before the HSCA, Nellie testified under oath that she saw the President clutch his neck. She didn't say 'clutching his neck', but rather this time she said she saw JFK clutch his neck."

What are you talking about? JFK NEVER "clutched" his neck. Have you ever in your life, studied the Zapruder film for any other purpose than to "win" a debate?? This was a ridiculously unimportant, miniscule misstatement on her part. It means nothing and it certainly doesn't mean that what we see in the film was wrong.

"Brehm said the car was 'coming down the street'"

Yes Bill, the car was indeed, coming down the street and Brehm undoubtedly saw it coming down the street. Nothing gets by you, does is Bill

But he also said that JFK was "15-20 feet" from him when the first of three shots was fired, didn't he Bill?

And in another interview that day he said JFK was about "15 feet" from him.

And he told the FBI that JFK was extremely close to him and that the limo only traveled about 12 feet as all three of those shots were fired, didn't he Bill?

Gosh it sure is a strange coincidence that he just happened to be "15-20 feet" from JFK at frame 285, don't you think Bill? And that he said the next shot blew up JFK's head, and that there was a final shot right after that?

BTW Bill, I have asked you three times now (four counting this one) to tell us your theory about when the shots were fired. When do you intend to answer?

Edited November 8, 2010 by Kathy Beckett

[Bill Miller]

"I have repeatedly said for you to look through the threads mentioning Nellie and what she said and you will find it. It was a source from one of her interviews that I found on Lancer that I believe Ron Hepler posted. I do not feel obligated to go back and look for things"

You're as phony as a proverbial three dollar bill. She never in her life said what you claimed and you never cited her saying such a thing.

"I look at Nellie's field of view in the Zapruder film and it is my opinion that she could see both her husband and JFK before the first shot was fired right through to her husband recoiling to his right before she reached out and pulled him back towards her. I'm not going to debate where her eyes are looking because the Zapruder film isn't sharp enough to ever allow that to happen."

More bull. Even if you actually believed that she looked at JFk prior to 223, that wouldn't matter because she couldn't have seen him with his hands at throat level. That could ONLY have happened at 258. I can't believe how far you would go to deliberately misrepresent the events that day. You are absolutely pathetic.

"I can differentiate the difference between Connally uttering 'Oh no, no, no' when he heard the first shot from him 'yelling like a stuck pig' (as Jackie called it)."

So, you can "differentiate the difference", can you? What is your first language Bill? And what the hell is your point? This gibberish doesn't say anything. JBC shouted "Oh, no, no.." and the "kill us all" statement. Obviously Jackie was referring to those sentences.

"My point is that she could do all she said she did before her husband recoiled to his right between Z223 through Z236."

That may be your "point" but your point is wrong and is a deliberate distortion. You know very well that she could not have seen JFK prior to 258. And even if you actually believed that she could, she certainly didn't react to a gunshot by pulling her husband back to her then.

BTW Bill, I have asked you three times now (four counting this one) to tell us your theory about when the shots were fired. When do you intend to answer?

I will work backwards to your nasty disgruntled foolishness ...

Your question was answered in detail in the 'Is JFK really waving thread' in response to your demands and you never responded back since then. I suggest that you stick to one thread or the other for you have several threads talking about the same things and I am not repeating my responses on each one. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16847&st=195 Starting at post #206

I didn't distort anything that Nellie said about seeing her husband 'buckle over and recoil to his right upon being shot in the shoulder'. If you thought otherwise, then I refer you to the Life Magazine article where the Connally's set out to put an end to people like you speculating as to what they meant when describing how the assassination went down.

Nellie Connally: I thought the noise had come and looked in the back and saw the President clutch his neck with both hands.

As far as Nellie seeing JFK grab his throat ... that is what she said and I quoted her. I would also ask that you consider her perspective from inside the car and not from Zapruder's elevated view looking downward at the street. I can tell you that it is a fact that when JFK's hands are seen as he emerges from behind the road sign that they will appear higher on his body from where Nellie sat at eye level than they do from Zapruder's elevated level. Stop your foul-mouthed nasty drama so you can think these things through for your bad temperament isn't going to make you right.

Now I have shown Zapruder frames starting before the first shot was fired and they show Nellie looking to her immediate right. I have made it clear that I have sat in her seat and looked to my immediate right and I could see both the jump seat neat to me, as well the the rear seat where JFK sat. I have also pointed out that Nellie said that she "saw the President clutch his neck with both hands. " I stand by the evidence I have presented and expect as much detail in return from anyone who disagrees with it.

So far you have made several claims like 'JFK has never waved this way' to 'no film shows JFK react this way' only to be shown in error. I have posted all I have said .... I do not feel obligated to spoon feed a disgruntled loud mouth like yourself who continually pretends to have seen all the evidence when I know you have not.

Bill Miller

Edited November 8, 2010 by Kathy Beckett

[Robert Harris]

Bill, you seem to be arguing about things that have nothing to do with anything and evading everything that is important.

As I told you before, it doesn't matter that Mrs. Connally said on one isolated occasion that she saw JFK "clutch" his neck, since we can see that he never did such a thing and we can also see that she was not looking back at him at the time that he first raised his arms. Therefore, that had to have been an error. What was obviously correct, was what she said many times over, that she looked back and saw him with his hands already at his neck. Even more importantly, we can easily see that she did not turn to look at JFK until frame 258.

Mrs. Connally could only have heard that shot AFTER frame 258 and we can easily see her react to it and pull her husband back to her beginning within 1/3rd of a second or about 6 frames following the shot at 285.

How do you account for the fact that she reacted within the same 1/6th of a second of the other nonvictims in the limo? Do you think that they all reacted for no reason at all and just reacted simultaneously due to pure coincidence? Or do you think that Dr. Alvarez just might have been correct that there was a loud noise at 285? And if there was no loud noise then, why did Greer panic and slow the limo, at the same time that he was spinning to the front and back so rapidly that some alterationists thought his turns were humanly impossible? Why did he do that Bill? Do you really think he was "in on it"?

And how do you account for the fact that Mrs. Connally specifically stated that she never looked back at JFK again after that shot? We never see her look back again, after 285, do we Bill?

But we see her look back TWICE after 223. How do you explain that Bill?

And how do you explain why Greer said the second and third shots were almost simultaneous and that Kellerman said the final shots came in a "flurry" and were much closer together than the first two shots he heard?

Even your own witness, Mary Woodward, said the final shots were closely bunched, although we can't see her react as we can the limo passengers. But we do know that the large majority of other witnesses who expressed an opinion about the timing, said the final shots were closely bunched. Even the Warren Commission admitted that in spite of the fact that those witnesses contradicted their own theories.

The evidence for the shot at 285 is overwhelming Bill. You said yourself that there was a missed shot which you could not place by frame number. Well, the good news is, that now you can.

[Guest Tom Scully]

This post is not an attempt to make any excuses for any of the exchanges on this thread. I have often wondered why, most especially in threads on this forum dealing with opinions posted related to the interpretations of film evidence, the exchanges so often become about the person and no longer about the person's opinions.

Thanks to John's tolerance and his scholarly approach in attempting to understand why we members are the way we are, he is still willing to maintain and to provide us all access to this forum to share our opinions.

Harold (Weisberg) was a contradiction. He was tireless in his research and unskilled writing, and in helping

other researchers. But he lashed out at phonies and those who did not appreciate his efforts.

Personally, he came off as a crotchety curmudgeon who had to be suffered because of his

enormous knowledge. He was the first researcher I ever contacted, and he corresponded with

me periodically. He was always very kind to me and my research...and I am glad I never

"crossed him", because he was a formidable foe. His books are filled with fantastic research and

insights, if one can wade through the mass of bad writing and lack of a wise editor. Unfortunately

he let himself be "used" in a covert attempt to sabotage Oliver Stone. Time took a toll on him,

and near the end, his effectiveness was somewhat reduced. I met him two times, but he was hard to

get to know because of his gruff persona.

Jack

Very interesting account. I suspect that it is impossible to take up a case like the JFK assassination without having a "divergent" personality. Without this you would just accept the status quo. This helps to explain why JFK researchers spend so much time attacking each other.

[Bill Miller]

Bill, you seem to be arguing about things that have nothing to do with anything and evading everything that is important.

As I told you before, it doesn't matter that Mrs. Connally said on one isolated occasion that she saw JFK "clutch" his neck, since we can see that he never did such a thing and we can also see that she was not looking back at him at the time that he first raised his arms. Therefore, that had to have been an error. What was obviously correct, was what she said many times over, that she looked back and saw him with his hands already at his neck. Even more importantly, we can easily see that she did not turn to look at JFK until frame 258.

You are the only person who keeps saying this and when the Connally's go out of their way to better explain in detail what they meant - you say to ignore them. As far as Nellie being in error over JFK grabbing his neck - think IMPRESSIONS. Mrs. Connally is not the only one who said that the President brought his hands up to his neck. The same sort of thing happened when Bill Newman remarked that the President's ear flew off. And besides, does it really matter what we think ... it is Nellie who straightened out the record, thus your beef is with her.

And if there was no loud noise then, why did Greer panic and slow the limo, at the same time that he was spinning to the front and back so rapidly that some alterationists thought his turns were humanly impossible? Why did he do that Bill? Do you really think he was "in on it"?

I believe it was Connally's squealing like a pig and the commotion going on that caused Greer to slow the car and look into the back to see what was happening.

And how do you account for the fact that Mrs. Connally specifically stated that she never looked back at JFK again after that shot? We never see her look back again, after 285, do we Bill?

There are two distinct possibilities ...

1) Like Jackie didn't remember getting onto the trunk, Nellie may not have remembered looking to the rear again.

2) Nellie may have turned to look back, but not at the President, but the reaction of the crowd, Secret Service, or to see where the shots were coming from. The fact is that she had her turned in such a manner to have seen all the things she claim she saw. Your allegation means that all else must be ignored - even the Connally's statements in the Life Magazine article where they are trying to set the record straight.

And how do you explain why Greer said the second and third shots were almost simultaneous and that Kellerman said the final shots came in a "flurry" and were much closer together than the first two shots he heard?

Shots taken only 3/18ths apart would sound like one over the top of the other like a sonic boom. I inserted shots in the Zapruder film between Z312 and Z313 and again between Z315 and Z316 so to allow people to experience what it may have sounded like to these individuals.

Even your own witness, Mary Woodward, said the final shots were closely bunched, although we can't see her react as we can the limo passengers.

The evidence for the shot at 285 is overwhelming Bill. You said yourself that there was a missed shot which you could not place by frame number. Well, the good news is, that now you can.

I have made it clear what was discovered about what shots were heard and from where depending on the witness's location to it. As far as when missed shots were fired ... its only a guess. The impact of shots 1 -2 - and 3 are visible on the Zfilm, thus I do not need to guess at them. Moorman's photo looks to show a gun being fired and I know when her photo was taken in relation to the Zapruder film, thus if it was a shot, then no guess work is necessary.

I simply do not agree with your assessment any more than I did with your broken window foolishness or JFK reacting to being hit with asphalt as he passed through the Towner film.

Bill Miller

Edited November 9, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

Bill, you seem to be arguing about things that have nothing to do with anything and evading everything that is important.

As I told you before, it doesn't matter that Mrs. Connally said on one isolated occasion that she saw JFK "clutch" his neck, since we can see that he never did such a thing and we can also see that she was not looking back at him at the time that he first raised his arms. Therefore, that had to have been an error. What was obviously correct, was what she said many times over, that she looked back and saw him with his hands already at his neck. Even more importantly, we can easily see that she did not turn to look at JFK until frame 258.

You are the only person who keeps saying this

What a silly argument. We're the only ones discussing it.

and when the Connally's go out of their way to better explain in detail what they meant - you say to ignore them.

ROFLMAO!! So after you dig up an isolated and demonstrably erroneous statement by these people which contradicts every other statement they ever made on the issue, you decide that this was the only time they really wanted to tell the truth???

I remember that you pulled the same stunt on Connally's statement about when he said, "Oh, no, no, no".

As far as Nellie being in error over JFK grabbing his neck - think IMPRESSIONS. Mrs. Connally is not the only one who said that the President brought his hands up to his neck.

Well duh... maybe that's because he did bring his hands up to neck level. But his hands were at neck level by frame 229 Bill. At that point, Mrs. Connally hadn't even turned far enough to the right to see her husband, let alone JFK. If you would look at the Zfilm animation I posted, instead of deleting it, you would have known that.

She just did not see him do that. She saw him after his hands had already been raised, and not before frame 258. Therefore, the shot she heard, HAD to have been fired after that point.

The same sort of thing happened when Bill Newman remarked that the President's ear flew off. And besides, does it really matter what we think ... it is Nellie who straightened out the record, thus your beef is with her.

Sorry Bill. There is no "beef" involved here at all. This is a very clear section of the Zapruder film and we know EXACTLY when JFK raised his arms and EXACTLY when Mrs. Connally looked back at him.

You can play around with what they said over forty plus years but there isn't much you can do about the Zapruder film (other than continue to delete it)

And if there was no loud noise then, why did Greer panic and slow the limo, at the same time that he was spinning to the front and back so rapidly that some alterationists thought his turns were humanly impossible? Why did he do that Bill? Do you really think he was "in on it"?

I believe it was Connally's squealing like a pig and the commotion going on that caused Greer to slow the car and look into the back to see what was happening.

Well then, maybe you're smarter than Dr. Alvarez. I mean hey! What's a measly Nobel prize in physics? And inventing nuclear weapons and figuring out the cause of the extinction of the dinosaurs isn't really all that impressive, I guess.

But isn't it an amazing coincidence that Greer started doing the Linda Blair impression and lifted his foot from the gas during the same 1/6th of a second that Nellie, Jackie, Kellerman and Zapruder were startled and visible reacted??

And how do you account for the fact that Mrs. Connally specifically stated that she never looked back at JFK again after that shot? We never see her look back again, after 285, do we Bill?

(continued)

Edited November 9, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Robert Harris]

1) Like Jackie didn't remember getting onto the trunk, Nellie may not have remembered looking to the rear again.

2) Nellie may have turned to look back, but not at the President, but the reaction of the crowd, Secret Service, or to see where the shots were coming from. The fact is that she had her turned in such a manner to have seen all the things she claim she saw.

You seem to have left out a third possibility Bill. She said she never looked back again after that shot because she never looked back again after that shot.

Your allegation means that all else must be ignored - even the Connally's statements in the Life Magazine article where they are trying to set the record straight.

Utter nonsense. My "allegation" means that the witnesses said exactly what they meant to say - without digging through forty years of interviews to find just one where they contradicted all their other interviews.

And how do you explain why Greer said the second and third shots were almost simultaneous and that Kellerman said the final shots came in a "flurry" and were much closer together than the first two shots he heard?

Shots taken only 3/18ths apart would sound like one over the top of the other like a sonic boom. I inserted shots in the Zapruder film between Z312 and Z313 and again between Z315 and Z316 so to allow people to experience what it may have sounded like to these individuals.

This is gibberish. I have no idea what you are talking about. The witnesses told us that the final shots were closely bunched and the visible reactions of limo passengers corroborates that. This is not complicated Bill.

Even your own witness, Mary Woodward, said the final shots were closely bunched, although we can't see her react as we can the limo passengers.

The evidence for the shot at 285 is overwhelming Bill. You said yourself that there was a missed shot which you could not place by frame number. Well, the good news is, that now you can.

I have made it clear what was discovered about what shots were heard and from where depending on the witness's location to it. As far as when missed shots were fired ... its only a guess.

No, it is not a "guess". Both Mrs. Connally and Mrs. Kennedy thought that the shot at 285 hit their respective husbands. Mrs. Kennedy's testimony is quite intriguing and it took me years to realize that she gave the WC two different stories. One was her official tale and the other was what she "used to believe". What she used to believe was of course, the truth.

"I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember."

I doubt that you will get it, or that you will admit that you get it but for those who care, Mrs. Kennedy felt badly that John Connally shouted and drew her attention toward him, so that she was did not see JFK when the first of two shots was fired and didn't have time to pull him down before the second of those shots struck the fatal blow.

Connally began to shout at about frame 242 Bill. Jackie turned toward him a fraction of a second later. She then quickly dropped her head, reacting within an eighteenth of a second of Nellie's reaction.

Those two shots were fired at frames 285 and 312.

Robert Harris

[Dean Hagerman]

"Both Mrs. Connally and Mrs. Kennedy thought that the shot at 285 hit their respective husbands"

Robert Harris

What a load of nonsense. You are making things up yet again.

This just gets funnier and funnier with each new post that you make.

Please provide the citation where Mrs Connally and Mrs Kennedy said that a shot at 285 hit their respective husbands.

I won't hold my breath waiting for something that you will never able to provide.

Why would you say something like that Robert?

Come on! Enough of this garbage already!

[Robert Harris]

"Both Mrs. Connally and Mrs. Kennedy thought that the shot at 285 hit their respective husbands"

Robert Harris

What a load of nonsense. You are making things up yet again.

This just gets funnier and funnier with each new post that you make.

Please provide the citation where Mrs Connally and Mrs Kennedy said that a shot at 285 hit their respective husbands.

I won't hold my breath waiting for something that you will never able to provide.

You're in violation of the forum rules and have been reported.

You are also wrong. The fact that Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally heard the shot at 285 and thought it struck their respective husbands does not mean that they identified it by Zapruder frame number. In fact, they probably had no clue about the film's numbering system.

If John Doe contracted hepatitis but did not know the name of the disease, it would still be correct to state that he had hepatitis. The fact that the two women heard the shot at 285, comes from their very specific statements that they each heard a shot after events that visibly occurred at frames 242 and 258 and by their simultaneous reactions a third of a second after the shot at 285 which in turn, were in almost perfect unison with reactions by Greer, Kellerman and Zapruder.

Duncan, you need to do a little critical thinking before shooting your mouth off and accusing me lying. That is reckless and irresponsible and it says much more about you than it does me.

Robert Harris

Edited November 9, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Bill Miller]

I have not broken the forum rules. Since the warning by Kathy was posted, I have only made one post, the one which you have reported, and which contained ZERO attacks against you, only an opinion of your wrong and uncited statement that you post as a fact.

Now, I suggest you spend less time snitching on others, and sticking to discussing the issues in a civil manner as Kathy suggested.

Ok, Where's the citation where you claim as a fact, that "Both Mrs. Connally and Mrs. Kennedy thought that the shot at 285 hit their respective husbands"

The forum awaits.

If one said that Robert's reading of the evidence is ludicrous - whacked - poor at best - without logic - mind boggling - lacking common sense - and etc., it would be an attack on the things he posted. On the other hand, Robert has called you names directly like idiot and moron, not to mention his foul language and he is reporting you (Duncan) .... that's a hoot!!!

It's not enough that we are entitled to post our conclusions and be open to rebuttal, but Robert goes off on these childish tantrums as if his life depends on you agreeing with him. I'm thinking that the only attention he gets is here having people tell him that his claims don't add up. I recall mentioning the sound of the cycles backfiring and how that could cause people to not recognize the sound of gunfire while others might hear backfire and think they were shots.

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=3&topic_id=45574&mesg_id=45574&listing_type=search Interview With Nellie Connally

Aired November 22, 2003 - 21:00 ET KING: And you turned to him and you say, "You can't say they don't love you."

CONNALLY: Yes. And he grinned that wonderful grin. And he was happy too. And I don't know whether it was seconds or a minute or two, and I heard this noise. KING: Was it a crack?

CONNALLY: Yes. And I wasn't sure that it was a gunshot because the motorcycles had been, you know, backfiring all around us. But I knew it was something and I turned and looked just in time to see his hands fly up to his face. And he just sunk down into the car. Said not a word. He just had a strange look in his eyes and said nothing. (end)

So it seems that not only was my statement about the background noise possibly effecting what witnesses may or may not have thought was gunfire, but again Nellie said in an interview that she actually saw JFK's hands come up.

Bill

Edited November 9, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

And why are distorting Mrs. Connally's testimony? You said,

"Nellie said she saw JFK with his hands up to his throat at the first shot and said the next shot hit her husband.."

She never said that she saw him "at" the first shot, did she Bill? And in fact, we KNOW when she looked back and saw JFK about 35 frames after the shot at 223, don't we Bill:ice

So you didn't like the things Nellie said in the Life Magazine article that was to better define what she and John experienced inside the limo during the assassination - hey? Here is another interview she did saying the following to Larry King ...

http://www.jfklancer...ing_type=search Interview With Nellie Connally

Aired November 22, 2003 - 21:00 ET KING: And you turned to him and you say, "You can't say they don't love you."

CONNALLY: Yes. And he grinned that wonderful grin. And he was happy too. And I don't know whether it was seconds or a minute or two, and I heard this noise. KING: Was it a crack?

CONNALLY: Yes. And I wasn't sure that it was a gunshot because the motorcycles had been, you know, backfiring all around us. But I knew it was something and I turned and looked just in time to see his hands fly up to his face. And he just sunk down into the car. Said not a word. He just had a strange look in his eyes and said nothing. (end)

So Nellie said she was looking at the President and saw his hands come up to his face. Here are the images again showing Nellie turned to her right and looking in the direction of her husband and the President.

Nellie Connally Continued:

CONNALLY: Well, I felt like then that it was -- John sitting right in front of him knew it was a shot.

KING: He did?

CONNALLY: Well, he's a hunter and a shooter, you know. So he turned quick...

KING: To his right?

CONNALLY: ... to his right and he couldn't see him because he was directly in front of him. And he said, "No, no, no" and turned to his left. (end)

The Governor's turn to the right was a glance over the right shoulder as John Connally demonstrated it for the press cameras. He went on to say that he was in the process of turning his head to the left and he felt a blow to his back just as he was just about facing front. Nellie was still turned to where she could see this if she was also able to see JFK bring his hands up towards his face.

I am sorry that you had to see where Nellie said again that she saw the President react to being shot. But the sooner you come to grips with it, the sooner you will be on the road to reality. (smile)

Bill Miller

Edited November 9, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Connally recoiled to his right and yelling out that they are all going to be killed which got Jackie's attention ...

Bill Miller