Robert Harris's Broken 3rd Floor Daltex Window Theory Blown Out Of The Water

[Robert Harris]

And Robert Harris has stated that I and other alterationists are crazy

How can you say we are crazy when you can see the limo turn taken out of the Z-film with your own eyes Robert?

How can you push crazy theories like a shot at Z285 yet call an alterationist like myself crazy?

Interesting remark ... start a thread on that one ... I'd like to hear why you say that.

Bill

What part?

Robert calling me crazy or the Limo turn being taken out?

I do not want to start another thread on Harris

We have debated the limo turn (It either being taken out or Zappy stopping and then starting filming again) in an older thread, I will try to find it and give it a bump

Hmm.. I don't remember actually saying you were crazy. I remember thinking it though

[Dean Hagerman]

And Robert Harris has stated that I and other alterationists are crazy

How can you say we are crazy when you can see the limo turn taken out of the Z-film with your own eyes Robert?

How can you push crazy theories like a shot at Z285 yet call an alterationist like myself crazy?

Interesting remark ... start a thread on that one ... I'd like to hear why you say that.

Bill

What part?

Robert calling me crazy or the Limo turn being taken out?

I do not want to start another thread on Harris

We have debated the limo turn (It either being taken out or Zappy stopping and then starting filming again) in an older thread, I will try to find it and give it a bump

Hmm.. I don't remember actually saying you were crazy. I remember thinking it though

You think up alot of things that make no sense

[Bill Miller]

Bill; i have read of late that the Zapruder camera was a wind up one, if true, how could he possibly start and stop the film...any information will be appreciated anyone...thanks...b

The type of camera that Zapruder used has been on more threads than I can count and most of them you also was active. The camera had a start and stop switch. The camera was spring wound and could be stopped at any time before the wind tension ran out. The camera could also be wound tighter between pauses when filming sequences.

I had three such cameras and found their running time on a full winding to be between 60 to 65 seconds.

The Zapruder film has two start up frames during the parade. A start up frame is brighter than the frames that follow because the camera isn't up to running speed when it first starts, thus it has a longer exposure time. One such frame comes when the film starts with the lead cycles coming through the intersection and the other when the limo is actually coming down Elm Street. This leads me to believe that Zapruder probably became aware that he might run out the tension on his camera, so he simply stopped it momentarily and then started it again causing the other over exposed film frame.

Bill

Edited November 10, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robin Unger]

Bill; i have read of late that the Zapruder camera was a wind up one, if true, how could he possibly start and stop the film...any information will be appreciated anyone...thanks...b

The type of camera that Zapruder used has been on more threads than I can count and most of them you also was active. The camera had a start and stop switch. The camera was spring wound and could be stopped at any time before the wind tension ran out. The camera could also be wound tighter between pauses when filming sequences.

I had three such cameras and found their running time on a full winding to be between 60 to 65 seconds.

The Zapruder film has two start up frames during the parade. A start up frame is brighter than the frames that follow because the camera isn't up to running speed when it first starts, thus it has a longer exposure time. One such frame comes when the film starts with the lead cycles coming through the intersection and the other when the limo is actually coming down Elm Street. This leads me to believe that Zapruder probably became aware that he might run out the tension on his camera, so he simply stopped it momentarily and then started it again causing the other over exposed film frame.

Bill

Overview

The Abraham Zapruder film is acknowledged to be the definitive view of the death of President Kennedy, for it is the only known movie showing the entire assassination sequence. Experts still debate over exactly what it does show and what is not clearly revealed. The film reel begins with family scenes of Zapruder’s grandchildren (not seen here), then shows his office assistant, Lillian Rogers, at her desk the morning of the assassination. After filming two of his coworkers in Dealey Plaza, Zapruder filmed the approaching motorcade from a pedestal above and to the right of the parade route. A U.S. Congressional committee confiscated the original film from the Zapruder family in 1997; after being compensated by the U.S. government, the family donated copies of the film and color transparencies of each frame, as well as the film’s copyright, to The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza in 1999. (Note: two extremely short pre-assassination scenes, one in Zapruder’s office and one in Dealey Plaza, are not included here until film restoration work has been completed.)

Date

1963-11-22

Collection

Zapruder Collection

Object Number

1999.042

How much of the Film roll does this use up. ?

How much film on the roll was left unexposed. ?

Total running time of all "exposed film" taken on the roll ?

Stabilized GIF ( Credit: Rick Needham )Frames provided by Robin Unger.

http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/item-detail?fedoraid=sfm:1999.042

Edited November 10, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Bernice Moore]

And Robert Harris has stated that I and other alterationists are crazy

How can you say we are crazy when you can see the limo turn taken out of the Z-film with your own eyes Robert?

How can you push crazy theories like a shot at Z285 yet call an alterationist like myself crazy?

Interesting remark ... start a thread on that one ... I'd like to hear why you say that.

Bill

What part?

Robert calling me crazy or the Limo turn being taken out?

I do not want to start another thread on Harris

We have debated the limo turn (It either being taken out or Zappy stopping and then starting filming again) in an older thread, I will try to find it and give it a bump

Bill; i have read of late that the Zapruder camera was a wind up one, if true, how could he possibly start and stop the film...any information will be appreciated anyone...thanks...b

Well, there was a stop/start button or trigger on these old cameras. They only ran when you wanted them to.

THANK YOU ROBERT FOR THE POLITE REPLY, B

[Bernice Moore]

Bill; i have read of late that the Zapruder camera was a wind up one, if true, how could he possibly start and stop the film...any information will be appreciated anyone...thanks...b

The type of camera that Zapruder used has been on more threads than I can count and most of them you also was active. The camera had a start and stop switch. The camera was spring wound and could be stopped at any time before the wind tension ran out. The camera could also be wound tighter between pauses when filming sequences.

I had three such cameras and found their running time on a full winding to be between 60 to 65 seconds.

The Zapruder film has two start up frames during the parade. A start up frame is brighter than the frames that follow because the camera isn't up to running speed when it first starts, thus it has a longer exposure time. One such frame comes when the film starts with the lead cycles coming through the intersection and the other when the limo is actually coming down Elm Street. This leads me to believe that Zapruder probably became aware that he might run out the tension on his camera, so he simply stopped it momentarily and then started it again causing the other over exposed film frame.

Bill

Overview

The Abraham Zapruder film is acknowledged to be the definitive view of the death of President Kennedy, for it is the only known movie showing the entire assassination sequence. Experts still debate over exactly what it does show and what is not clearly revealed. The film reel begins with family scenes of Zapruder’s grandchildren (not seen here), then shows his office assistant, Lillian Rogers, at her desk the morning of the assassination. After filming two of his coworkers in Dealey Plaza, Zapruder filmed the approaching motorcade from a pedestal above and to the right of the parade route. A U.S. Congressional committee confiscated the original film from the Zapruder family in 1997; after being compensated by the U.S. government, the family donated copies of the film and color transparencies of each frame, as well as the film’s copyright, to The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza in 1999. (Note: two extremely short pre-assassination scenes, one in Zapruder’s office and one in Dealey Plaza, are not included here until film restoration work has been completed.)

Date

1963-11-22

Collection

Zapruder Collection

Object Number

1999.042

How much of the Film roll does this use up. ?

How much film on the roll was left unexposed. ?

Total running time of all "exposed film" taken on the roll ?

Stabilized GIF ( Credit: Rick Needham )Frames provided by Robin Unger.

http://www.jfk.org/g...id=sfm:1999.042

thanks robin, for your kind reply, here is the other frame from zappy, of his grandson from the beginning of the film...b

[Robin Unger]

So what it all boils down to Bill, is that her earliest and most reliable recollection proves you are wrong and the tiny detail that it was IMPOSSIBLE for her to have seen his hands rise to his neck, sorta puts a little crimp in your theory :D

I won't speak for Bill, but I believe you are not analysing the Zapruder firm correctly.

In my opinion, Nellie actually makes 2 seperate looks at JFK.

Nellie's first look at JFK can be seen between Zapruder frames 237 and 243, when JFK is still in the process of raising his arms and hands in an upward direction. Nellie therefore seen the upward motion exactly as she described.

Nellie's second look at JFK, when the upward motion of JFK's arms and hands has stopped, can be seen starting at Zapruder frame 253 and finishing at Zapruder frame 258.

JFK Movie Frame;

[Bernice Moore]

Bill; i have read of late that the Zapruder camera was a wind up one, if true, how could he possibly start and stop the film...any information will be appreciated anyone...thanks...b

The type of camera that Zapruder used has been on more threads than I can count and most of them you also was active. The camera had a start and stop switch. The camera was spring wound and could be stopped at any time before the wind tension ran out. The camera could also be wound tighter between pauses when filming sequences.

I had three such cameras and found their running time on a full winding to be between 60 to 65 seconds.

The Zapruder film has two start up frames during the parade. A start up frame is brighter than the frames that follow because the camera isn't up to running speed when it first starts, thus it has a longer exposure time. One such frame comes when the film starts with the lead cycles coming through the intersection and the other when the limo is actually coming down Elm Street. This leads me to believe that Zapruder probably became aware that he might run out the tension on his camera, so he simply stopped it momentarily and then started it again causing the other over exposed film frame.

Bill

thank you Snarky, you just have to don't you, not in your make-up to not to,,i forgot, omg,neener neener, i do not have the Gary on my right arm, attached so that all info is readily at hand, nor reminded if ,whether forgotten or not,and there are other things on hand on a daily basis that are much more important than the operation of the crappy zappy camera, well to some i suppose, it the zap info has never been the be all front and centre, as it appears with some, aw willie your day will come, and god help you when you forget anything, do you not realise now that some will be watching you for such, no, well gee perhaps you forgot...you only get what you give out in this world, and you still have not learnt, i guess you forgot...sheesh...have a good day snarky..sorry i asked you anything, i will not make that mistake in the future ....b

[Robin Unger]

Bill; i have read of late that the Zapruder camera was a wind up one, if true, how could he possibly start and stop the film...any information will be appreciated anyone...thanks...b

The type of camera that Zapruder used has been on more threads than I can count and most of them you also was active. The camera had a start and stop switch. The camera was spring wound and could be stopped at any time before the wind tension ran out. The camera could also be wound tighter between pauses when filming sequences.

I had three such cameras and found their running time on a full winding to be between 60 to 65 seconds.

The Zapruder film has two start up frames during the parade. A start up frame is brighter than the frames that follow because the camera isn't up to running speed when it first starts, thus it has a longer exposure time. One such frame comes when the film starts with the lead cycles coming through the intersection and the other when the limo is actually coming down Elm Street. This leads me to believe that Zapruder probably became aware that he might run out the tension on his camera, so he simply stopped it momentarily and then started it again causing the other over exposed film frame.

Bill

Overview

The Abraham Zapruder film is acknowledged to be the definitive view of the death of President Kennedy, for it is the only known movie showing the entire assassination sequence. Experts still debate over exactly what it does show and what is not clearly revealed. The film reel begins with family scenes of Zapruder’s grandchildren (not seen here), then shows his office assistant, Lillian Rogers, at her desk the morning of the assassination. After filming two of his coworkers in Dealey Plaza, Zapruder filmed the approaching motorcade from a pedestal above and to the right of the parade route. A U.S. Congressional committee confiscated the original film from the Zapruder family in 1997; after being compensated by the U.S. government, the family donated copies of the film and color transparencies of each frame, as well as the film’s copyright, to The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza in 1999. (Note: two extremely short pre-assassination scenes, one in Zapruder’s office and one in Dealey Plaza, are not included here until film restoration work has been completed.)

Date

1963-11-22

Collection

Zapruder Collection

Object Number

1999.042

How much of the Film roll does this use up. ?

How much film on the roll was left unexposed. ?

Total running time of all "exposed film" taken on the roll ?

Stabilized GIF ( Credit: Rick Needham )Frames provided by Robin Unger.

thanks robin, for your kind reply, here is the other frame from zappy, of his grandson from the beginning of the film...b

Exellent Bernice.

I spent the last 20 minutes looking for that frame of Zapruders grandson in my files.

Cheers.

Robin.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Bernice Moore]

Bill; i have read of late that the Zapruder camera was a wind up one, if true, how could he possibly start and stop the film...any information will be appreciated anyone...thanks...b

The type of camera that Zapruder used has been on more threads than I can count and most of them you also was active. The camera had a start and stop switch. The camera was spring wound and could be stopped at any time before the wind tension ran out. The camera could also be wound tighter between pauses when filming sequences.

I had three such cameras and found their running time on a full winding to be between 60 to 65 seconds.

The Zapruder film has two start up frames during the parade. A start up frame is brighter than the frames that follow because the camera isn't up to running speed when it first starts, thus it has a longer exposure time. One such frame comes when the film starts with the lead cycles coming through the intersection and the other when the limo is actually coming down Elm Street. This leads me to believe that Zapruder probably became aware that he might run out the tension on his camera, so he simply stopped it momentarily and then started it again causing the other over exposed film frame.

Bill

Overview

The Abraham Zapruder film is acknowledged to be the definitive view of the death of President Kennedy, for it is the only known movie showing the entire assassination sequence. Experts still debate over exactly what it does show and what is not clearly revealed. The film reel begins with family scenes of Zapruder's grandchildren (not seen here), then shows his office assistant, Lillian Rogers, at her desk the morning of the assassination. After filming two of his coworkers in Dealey Plaza, Zapruder filmed the approaching motorcade from a pedestal above and to the right of the parade route. A U.S. Congressional committee confiscated the original film from the Zapruder family in 1997; after being compensated by the U.S. government, the family donated copies of the film and color transparencies of each frame, as well as the film's copyright, to The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza in 1999. (Note: two extremely short pre-assassination scenes, one in Zapruder's office and one in Dealey Plaza, are not included here until film restoration work has been completed.)

Date

1963-11-22

Collection

Zapruder Collection

Object Number

1999.042

How much of the Film roll does this use up. ?

How much film on the roll was left unexposed. ?

Total running time of all "exposed film" taken on the roll ?

Stabilized GIF ( Credit: Rick Needham )Frames provided by Robin Unger.

http://www.jfk.org/g...id=sfm:1999.042

thanks robin, for your kind reply, here is the other frame from zappy, of his grandson from the beginning of the film...b

Exellent Bernice.

I spent the last 20 minutes looking for that frame of Zapruders grandson in my files.

Cheers.

Robin.

your welcome Robin, there should be other frames also but,they have not been made available, i hope your gremlin does not disolve or eat your photos as i suspect mine does at times,he gets voracious,it seems ,even for pdfs , have a good day, thanks best b...

Edited November 10, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Robin Unger]

Myers.

Am i correct in reading this last paragraph that there was 20-seconds of unexposed film left in the camera. ?

Edited November 10, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Groden Z-Film frame splices

Edited November 10, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Robert Harris]

It doesn't matter that you found an isolated statement by Mrs. Connally that contradicted her other statements. As I explained to you before, JFK raised his hands to neck level by frame 229. But at that point, Mrs. Connally wasn't turned far enough to even see her husband, let alone President Kennedy. You need to look at this Zapruder film segment instead of continually deleting it.

It is not possible for Mrs. Connally to have seen JFK raising his hands to neck level, Bill. Deleting the animation and evading these facts does not help your cause.

As for your claim that all the witnesses who disagreed with you (which is most of them ) were too confused to know what they heard, that is among the lamest excuses I have ever heard. And that is particularly true of witnesses whose actions can be verified in the films and photos.

Harris ... I didn't find just one isolated instance where Nellie said that she saw the President raise his hand up - I have given you two. Now I am giving you the third one and it comes from your own erred video ... listen to it carefully and see if Nellie didn't tell the interviewer starting at the 40 second mark than she saw JFK's hands go up to his face ...

Like I said before - your beef is with Nellie. You are so hung up on a bad observation you made that you do not even know what evidence you have provided that disputes your claim.

Bill Miller

Bill, what is the point in continuing to promote an argument that has already been proven wrong?

Mrs. Connally couldn't possibly have seen JFK raising his hands to neck level. As I explained to you before, he raised his hands to neck level by frame 229. But at that point, Mrs. Connally wasn't turned far enough to even see her husband, let alone President Kennedy. You need to look at this Zapruder film segment instead of continually deleting it.

Responsible researchers ALWAYS go with witnesses' earliest statements because over the years, memories fade and are sometimes altered by reading articles and books. And this was from her sworn testimony before the Warren Commission, which makes it crystal clear that JFK's hands were already raised when she looked back.

"I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck."

So what it all boils down to Bill, is that her earliest and most reliable recollection proves you are wrong and the tiny detail that it was IMPOSSIBLE for her to have seen his hands rise to his neck, sorta puts a little crimp in your theory :D

Bill, you need to acknowledge your "mistake".

It was impossible for Mrs. Connally to have seen JFK's hands rise to his neck because when he did that she was not turned far enough to her right to even see her husband and couldn't possibly have seen JFK then.

After she heard the ambiguous "noise" she first turned to check her husband and obviously, did not believe he was wounded because she then turned away from him to examine JFK. It was only after she looked back and saw JFK at frame 258 that she heard the shot that she believed, wound John Connally.

She reacted to that rifle shot by turning back to him and pulling him back to her, beginning at 291-292. Jackie reacted by turning toward her own husband at 290, thinking he was "receiving a bullet". Greer and Kellerman's reactions began at 292 and Dr. Alvarez determined that Zapruder's reaction began at 290-291. That's exactly FIVE reactions that began within the same 1/6th of a second.

[Robert Harris]

Mrs. Connally couldn't possibly have seen JFK raising his hands to neck level. As I explained to you before, he raised his hands to neck level by frame 229. But at that point, Mrs. Connally wasn't turned far enough to even see her husband, let alone President Kennedy.

Nellie actually makes 2 seperate looks at JFK.

Nellie's first look at JFK can be seen between Zapruder frames 236 and 243, when JFK is still in the process of raising his arms and hands in an upward direction. Nellie therefore seen the upward motion exactly as she described.

Nellie's second look at JFK, when the upward motion of JFK's arms and hands has stopped, can be seen starting at Zapruder frame 253 and finishing at Zapruder frame 258.

Conclusion: Bill is correct, Bob is wrong.

"Nellie's first look at JFK can be seen between Zapruder frames 236 and 243"

Woohoo!! Well, that sure settles that!

Come on Bill!! Show us what an honest young man you are. Come over here and congratulate your amigo for his marvelous work! He sees Nellie looking at JFK at 236-243. We both know Duncan and how honest he is. If he can sink to that level, you can too!

We all know why you evade my arguments but surely you won't evade what your tag team partner has to say. Will you Bill?

Oh, and don't worry about the minor fact that JFK had already raised his arms to neck level by 229. People like you and Duncan don't let little details like that slow them down, do you Bill?

Edited November 10, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Robert Harris]

Woohoo!! Well, that sure settles that!

Come on Bill!! Show us what an honest young man you are. Come over here and congratulate your amigo for his marvelous work! He sees Nellie looking at JFK at 236-243. We both know Duncan and how honest he is. If he can sink to that level, you can too!

Sorry if the action in Zapruder is too quick for you to see properly, Robert.

Her first head turn actually ends at Z 238. I kept the extra frames in after that to help you see it ending.

Here is Nellie looking side on at JFK at Zapruder frame 238. Live with it.

ROFLMAO!!!

Of course. Since you located a frame in which her face can't be seen and then drew an arrow, that proves your case!! :D

You must really think people around here are idiots, don't you Duncan

The ridiculously obvious fact is that she could not have seen JFK until about frame 258.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Robert Harris