John Dolva Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 Thomas, thank you for taking the time to respond. The parallax matter (for me) is particularly interesting. Knowing that wind (as it was? Gusts) over the distance is no issue is good to know. Thank's again, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted October 1, 2010 Author Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Mr. Josephs, it's apparent you haven't been following Mr. Purvis' logic about how CE399 came to be. As I understand Mr. Purvis' position, CE399 did not EVER enter the body of John B. Connally, and is therefore NOT the "magic" bullet of the SBT. As I understand Mr. Purvis' position, CE399 was the first shot from the 6th floor of the TSBD; passed through a limb of a live oak tree, slightly flattening the projectile into a more oval shape than its original round shape; then tumbled until it entered JFK's back in a base-first position, acting much as a "wad-cutter" bullet would act; and a fragment from the lead center at the base was squeezed out, and traveled onward after the main part of the bullet had stopped, and damaged a bone in the neck prior to exiting the body at the anterior neck. At least that is my understanding. Mr. Purvis can elaborate and clarify if he so chooses, as I don't even pretend to speak for Mr. Purvis; I'm merely relaying my impressions of Mr. Purvis' position re: CE399, based upon some of his previous posts. So therefore many of Mr. Josephs' assumptions about what Mr. Purvis believes about CE399 are most likely incorrect, if my understanding of Mr.Purvis' position on CE399 are basically correct. Edited October 1, 2010 by Mark Knight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 Appreciate the input Mark yet I don't think anything in my post supports CE399 as the Magic Bullet except for mentioning it passing thru JC and the effects on the bullet's weight compared to, supposedly, the same ammunition behaving completely differently. I've not read where Thomas posted what you describe as his position yet I have not read everything to be sure. In either case, CE399 still supposedly passed thru someone's body and emerges without any trace of that occuring. I've also stated that SWITCHING evidence was much more likely than PLANTING evidence There are some very definitive statements in his post and I believe I've addressed them... If Thomas could reply I am sure we both can be satisfied. He wrote: P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB. You in agreement to that statement? or this one given the analysis I posted? 1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB. and finally this one: the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event. These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims.... DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 Mr. Josephs, it's apparent you haven't been following Mr. Purvis' logic about how CE399 came to be. As I understand Mr. Purvis' position, CE399 did not EVER enter the body of John B. Connally, and is therefore NOT the "magic" bullet of the SBT. As I understand Mr. Purvis' position, CE399 was the first shot from the 6th floor of the TSBD; passed through a limb of a live oak tree, slightly flattening the projectile into a more oval shape than its original round shape; then tumbled until it entered JFK's back in a base-first position, acting much as a "wad-cutter" bullet would act; and a fragment from the lead center at the base was squeezed out, and traveled onward after the main part of the bullet had stopped, and damaged a bone in the neck prior to exiting the body at the anterior neck. At least that is my understanding. Mr. Purvis can elaborate and clarify if he so chooses, as I don't even pretend to speak for Mr. Purvis; I'm merely relaying my impressions of Mr. Purvis' position re: CE399, based upon some of his previous posts. So therefore many of Mr. Josephs' assumptions about what Mr. Purvis believes about CE399 are most likely incorrect, if my understanding of Mr.Purvis' position on CE399 are basically correct. "if my understanding of Mr.Purvis' position on CE399 are basically correct." Actually! It is exactly correct! (Note: see the cone-shaped/flat-based fragment of CE840 for the lead protrusion which squeezed out the base of CE399 and was subsequently sheared as a result of impact with a bone of the vertebral column. TEmptyPockets@aol.com Request that you email me Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 Appreciate the input Mark yet I don't think anything in my post supports CE399 as the Magic Bullet except for mentioning it passing thru JC and the effects on the bullet's weight compared to, supposedly, the same ammunition behaving completely differently. I've not read where Thomas posted what you describe as his position yet I have not read everything to be sure. In either case, CE399 still supposedly passed thru someone's body and emerges without any trace of that occuring. I've also stated that SWITCHING evidence was much more likely than PLANTING evidence There are some very definitive statements in his post and I believe I've addressed them... If Thomas could reply I am sure we both can be satisfied. He wrote: P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB. You in agreement to that statement? or this one given the analysis I posted? 1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB. and finally this one: the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event. These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims.... DJ "These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims..." Quite incorrect! CE399 proves absolutely that it, and it alone, is directly responsible for the upper back/lower neck wound incurred by JFK. (Hint) The fact that the deformed base to CE399 measures 4mm X 7mm and the fact that the "punch-type" wound of entry into the back of JFK measures exactly 4mm X 7mm, should provide a clue for even those who are not "smarter than a fifth grader". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 (edited) Is there any evidence that would support the back wound as an exit wound for the throat wound? I ask because Clint Hill cited the "shoulder" wound as the "first hit" on "the Boss." Long disquisitions on what an idiot I am for asking this are not necessary. I just want to know if there are any contradictions to the agreed-upon findings. Edited October 6, 2010 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 Is there any evidence that would support the back wound as an exit wound for the throat wound? I ask because Clint Hill cited the "shoulder" wound as the "first hit" on "the Boss." Long disquisitions on what an idiot I am for asking this are not necessary. I just want to know if there are any contradictions to the agreed-upon findings. "I just want to know if there are any contradictions to the agreed-upon findings." "Contradictions"---absolutely. Unfortunately the great majority have absolutely no factual reliability. There exists absolutely ZERO forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical fact which would demonstrate that the back wound is anything other than a legitimate wound of entry. Plus, there are no witness statements which would indicate otherwise as well. To the contrary, there exists a multitude of FACT which clearly demonstrates that CE399 (and only CE399) is in fact totally responsible for the upper back/lower neck wound incurred by JFK. If (and when) one ceases to listen to the opinions of all (myself inclulded) and then begins to evaluate the factual evidence, the conclusion is actually relatively simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 Mark: http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_alpine.html Mr. Penney founded National Ordnance, and in Fall of 1962 separated from National Ordnance, manufacturing the carbines that bear the Alpine name. In November and December 1960, Alpine Sales placed the below retail mail order advertisement in The American Rifleman. The carbines Alpine sold, were the first National Ordnance carbines. The response from these ads sold every National Ordnance carbine in stock Penney estimated approximately 250-300+ Alpine M1 carbines were sold with the receiver drilled and tapped with a scope mounted. The scopes were manufactured by Ordnance Optics, another company owned by Penney. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=5864.0 He hires Robert Penney to run the gun shop. Bob Penney came up with the new name for the gun shop, Pasadena Firearms. Pasadena Firearms is established before Golden State Arms is incorporated in 1952. As Mr. Gettler’s import business grows, Pasadena Firearms is moved to 1165 E. Colorado Boulevard Pasadena, CA. (Reference: Jim’s interview with Bob Penney) 1952 Golden State Arms incorporates. Tom's note: Golden State was one of the largest dealers in used military surplus and claimed to be the largest. They were one of the first to begin to acquire the used Carcano rifles and offer them for sale. The earliest add which I currently have dates to 1957 and if from a "Mechanix Illustrated" magazine in which the Model 38 Short Rifle (7.35mm caliber) was offered for sale cheap. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Back to: http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_alpine.html There was no way of knowing where the rifle had come from, other than it was a surplus Italian military rifle that had been imported into the United States in quantities exceeding tens of thousands. Ordnance Optics, on the other hand, had been owned by Robert E. Penney Jr. Penney had sold Ordnance Optics to Martin B. Retting in Culver City, CA. However, he was aware the Ordnance Optics scopes had not been sold individually or unmounted. They had all been sold to one of Penney's largest customers, Kleins of Chicago. Klein's sold them only as part of a package deal, mounted on Italian Carcanos Tom's note: Yeah but! What about all those "Ordnance Optics" scopes which you owned and were installing on the "ALPINE" M1 Carbines. And, what about all of those Ordnance Optics scopes you owned back when you were a partner in Golden State Arms which was selling various Carcano rifles by the truckload. And, what about all of those "machine shop" access's which you had working for you which could make and/or stamp just about any name, number, and or serial number one could desire on any weapon. Certainly is a "similarity" between the "CAL." stamp on the ALPINE Carbine and the "CAL." stamp on a Carcano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_santafe.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 Appreciate the input Mark yet I don't think anything in my post supports CE399 as the Magic Bullet except for mentioning it passing thru JC and the effects on the bullet's weight compared to, supposedly, the same ammunition behaving completely differently. I've not read where Thomas posted what you describe as his position yet I have not read everything to be sure. In either case, CE399 still supposedly passed thru someone's body and emerges without any trace of that occuring. I've also stated that SWITCHING evidence was much more likely than PLANTING evidence There are some very definitive statements in his post and I believe I've addressed them... If Thomas could reply I am sure we both can be satisfied. He wrote: P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB. You in agreement to that statement? or this one given the analysis I posted? 1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB. and finally this one: the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event. These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims.... DJ "These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims..." Quite incorrect! CE399 proves absolutely that it, and it alone, is directly responsible for the upper back/lower neck wound incurred by JFK. (Hint) The fact that the deformed base to CE399 measures 4mm X 7mm and the fact that the "punch-type" wound of entry into the back of JFK measures exactly 4mm X 7mm, should provide a clue for even those who are not "smarter than a fifth grader". Actually! It is exactly correct! (Note: see the cone-shaped/flat-based fragment of CE840 for the lead protrusion which squeezed out the base of CE399 and was subsequently sheared as a result of impact with a bone of the vertebral column. If Mr Purvis actually means that CE399 did NOT pass thru JFK, but entered him EXACTLY perpendicular, base first, after tumbling thru the air after hitting a limb... I see why he prefers to state that this is the "Magic Bullet" as not only does it enter and leave perfect dimensions that match the pre-flatteneed bullet... but it too disappears. Maybe it's the bullet referred to by Belmont here: If this letter is a proven fake, please say so... thx. And then the Autopsy states it did not hit a bone: Autopsy report: The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck. This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony structures in its path through the body. The FBI report may be more in line with Thomas' theory... yet where'd the bullet go? And if a pointed bullet was found on JC's stretcher as having come out of JC's thigh... even more evidence of a 2nd shooter. Sibert/O'Neill report During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. and from the autopsy again: 2. The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in the upper right posterior thorax. Beneath the skin there is ecchymosis of subcutaneous tissue and musculature. The missile path through the fascia and musculature cannot be easily proved. The wound presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Perry of Dallas in the low anterior cervical region. CE399 had no blood, tissue, fibers at all on it... if the bullet entered open end first and left fragments in his chest how is it that the bullet is completely clean? Finally, Mr. Purvis, you state the rifle was ABSOLUTELY fired during the assassination event. The fact that a wound matches a bullet has no direct bearing at all as to whether a rifle was fired that day or not. Or even the fact that bullet matches that rifle... we have no idea how THAT bullet came into being... CE399 is not substantiated by anyone who supposed found it and transported it. Please explain to us novices how THAT rifle was proven to have been fired THAT day... everything I've read says you can only tell if the rifle was NOT fired - if it was cleaned prior to that day and not fired, it would still be clean... if not clean you would have to prove that the rifle was cleaned and not fired prior to that day, and then found residue from firing it. Are you able to do any of this? DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Appreciate the input Mark yet I don't think anything in my post supports CE399 as the Magic Bullet except for mentioning it passing thru JC and the effects on the bullet's weight compared to, supposedly, the same ammunition behaving completely differently. I've not read where Thomas posted what you describe as his position yet I have not read everything to be sure. In either case, CE399 still supposedly passed thru someone's body and emerges without any trace of that occuring. I've also stated that SWITCHING evidence was much more likely than PLANTING evidence There are some very definitive statements in his post and I believe I've addressed them... If Thomas could reply I am sure we both can be satisfied. He wrote: P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB. You in agreement to that statement? or this one given the analysis I posted? 1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB. and finally this one: the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event. These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims.... DJ "These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims..." Quite incorrect! CE399 proves absolutely that it, and it alone, is directly responsible for the upper back/lower neck wound incurred by JFK. (Hint) The fact that the deformed base to CE399 measures 4mm X 7mm and the fact that the "punch-type" wound of entry into the back of JFK measures exactly 4mm X 7mm, should provide a clue for even those who are not "smarter than a fifth grader". Actually! It is exactly correct! (Note: see the cone-shaped/flat-based fragment of CE840 for the lead protrusion which squeezed out the base of CE399 and was subsequently sheared as a result of impact with a bone of the vertebral column. If Mr Purvis actually means that CE399 did NOT pass thru JFK, but entered him EXACTLY perpendicular, base first, after tumbling thru the air after hitting a limb... I see why he prefers to state that this is the "Magic Bullet" as not only does it enter and leave perfect dimensions that match the pre-flatteneed bullet... but it too disappears. Maybe it's the bullet referred to by Belmont here: If this letter is a proven fake, please say so... thx. And then the Autopsy states it did not hit a bone: Autopsy report: The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck. This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony structures in its path through the body. The FBI report may be more in line with Thomas' theory... yet where'd the bullet go? And if a pointed bullet was found on JC's stretcher as having come out of JC's thigh... even more evidence of a 2nd shooter. Sibert/O'Neill report During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. and from the autopsy again: 2. The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in the upper right posterior thorax. Beneath the skin there is ecchymosis of subcutaneous tissue and musculature. The missile path through the fascia and musculature cannot be easily proved. The wound presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Perry of Dallas in the low anterior cervical region. CE399 had no blood, tissue, fibers at all on it... if the bullet entered open end first and left fragments in his chest how is it that the bullet is completely clean? Finally, Mr. Purvis, you state the rifle was ABSOLUTELY fired during the assassination event. The fact that a wound matches a bullet has no direct bearing at all as to whether a rifle was fired that day or not. Or even the fact that bullet matches that rifle... we have no idea how THAT bullet came into being... CE399 is not substantiated by anyone who supposed found it and transported it. Please explain to us novices how THAT rifle was proven to have been fired THAT day... everything I've read says you can only tell if the rifle was NOT fired - if it was cleaned prior to that day and not fired, it would still be clean... if not clean you would have to prove that the rifle was cleaned and not fired prior to that day, and then found residue from firing it. Are you able to do any of this? DJ It would be a complete waste of my time to attempt to explain forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact to anyone who operates on hearsay; half-truth; rumor; innuendo; and an occassional outright lie. As a general rule, those who waste their time chasing mythological creatures (mythological multiple assassins; body kidnappers; wound alteration specialists; bullet planters; and giant conspiratorial concepts which employ virtually every agency of the U.S. Government (+ a few outsiders)) Are most unlikely to either understand the factual evidence and/or accept it when it is demonstrated to them. And no! CE399 IS NOT the "Magic Bullet". It is still with us. A principal concept of "Magic" is the ability to make something disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Appreciate the input Mark yet I don't think anything in my post supports CE399 as the Magic Bullet except for mentioning it passing thru JC and the effects on the bullet's weight compared to, supposedly, the same ammunition behaving completely differently. I've not read where Thomas posted what you describe as his position yet I have not read everything to be sure. In either case, CE399 still supposedly passed thru someone's body and emerges without any trace of that occuring. I've also stated that SWITCHING evidence was much more likely than PLANTING evidence There are some very definitive statements in his post and I believe I've addressed them... If Thomas could reply I am sure we both can be satisfied. He wrote: P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB. You in agreement to that statement? or this one given the analysis I posted? 1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB. and finally this one: the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event. These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims.... DJ "These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims..." Quite incorrect! CE399 proves absolutely that it, and it alone, is directly responsible for the upper back/lower neck wound incurred by JFK. (Hint) The fact that the deformed base to CE399 measures 4mm X 7mm and the fact that the "punch-type" wound of entry into the back of JFK measures exactly 4mm X 7mm, should provide a clue for even those who are not "smarter than a fifth grader". Actually! It is exactly correct! (Note: see the cone-shaped/flat-based fragment of CE840 for the lead protrusion which squeezed out the base of CE399 and was subsequently sheared as a result of impact with a bone of the vertebral column. If Mr Purvis actually means that CE399 did NOT pass thru JFK, but entered him EXACTLY perpendicular, base first, after tumbling thru the air after hitting a limb... I see why he prefers to state that this is the "Magic Bullet" as not only does it enter and leave perfect dimensions that match the pre-flatteneed bullet... but it too disappears. Maybe it's the bullet referred to by Belmont here: If this letter is a proven fake, please say so... thx. And then the Autopsy states it did not hit a bone: Autopsy report: The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck. This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony structures in its path through the body. The FBI report may be more in line with Thomas' theory... yet where'd the bullet go? And if a pointed bullet was found on JC's stretcher as having come out of JC's thigh... even more evidence of a 2nd shooter. Sibert/O'Neill report During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. and from the autopsy again: 2. The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in the upper right posterior thorax. Beneath the skin there is ecchymosis of subcutaneous tissue and musculature. The missile path through the fascia and musculature cannot be easily proved. The wound presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Perry of Dallas in the low anterior cervical region. CE399 had no blood, tissue, fibers at all on it... if the bullet entered open end first and left fragments in his chest how is it that the bullet is completely clean? Finally, Mr. Purvis, you state the rifle was ABSOLUTELY fired during the assassination event. The fact that a wound matches a bullet has no direct bearing at all as to whether a rifle was fired that day or not. Or even the fact that bullet matches that rifle... we have no idea how THAT bullet came into being... CE399 is not substantiated by anyone who supposed found it and transported it. Please explain to us novices how THAT rifle was proven to have been fired THAT day... everything I've read says you can only tell if the rifle was NOT fired - if it was cleaned prior to that day and not fired, it would still be clean... if not clean you would have to prove that the rifle was cleaned and not fired prior to that day, and then found residue from firing it. Are you able to do any of this? DJ It would be a complete waste of my time to attempt to explain forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact to anyone who operates on hearsay; half-truth; rumor; innuendo; and an occassional outright lie. As a general rule, those who waste their time chasing mythological creatures (mythological multiple assassins; body kidnappers; wound alteration specialists; bullet planters; and giant conspiratorial concepts which employ virtually every agency of the U.S. Government (+ a few outsiders)) Are most unlikely to either understand the factual evidence and/or accept it when it is demonstrated to them. And no! CE399 IS NOT the "Magic Bullet". It is still with us. A principal concept of "Magic" is the ability to make something disappear. Thomas, Not wanting to engage in a conversation with supporting evidence or science is par for course.... None of what you claim to be forensic, ballistic, pathological or physical fact is supportable. and wandering off into direction unknown in your posts doesn't make you any more convincing... The only reason the "Magic Bullet" CE399 is still with us is becasue it had nothing at all to do with the injuries sustained on 11/22/63 as is with most all the other "evidence". You've got a bullet entering the body, leaving lead fragments yet emerging without a trace of evidence it was in contact with anyone. Nothing on that bullet suggests it ever came close to JFK. And I posted the studies that show how the chemical composition of the bullet fragments can be matched to a variety of bullets... or did you not even both reading something that may disagree with your unsupported opinions? And we thank Mr Knight for clarifying Thomas' CE399 position... the "oswald fired-hit the limb-tumbled thru the air-entered JFK exactly perpedicular so as to cause a 4x7mm entrance wound-and then is found where?" We can agree that all three of us know that CE399 and the SBT are inconsistent. I agree that CE399 did NOT enter JC... but I also say it did not hit anyone else for that matter. Thomas talks of reliability yet forgets the age of the MC, the age of the ammo, and the condition of both when found. 5. Although the WCC Carcano ammo was available, the 7.35mm Carcano ammo (Italian Manufacture) is, and was quite reliable ammunition as well.Therefore, whether one ended up with the 6.5mm version with WCC ammo, or the 7.35mm version with the Italian manufacture ammo, they still had a highly reliable weapon system. He further neglects to address how Oswald even came into possession of the rifle and how the backyard photo shows a different rifle entirely. You don't even bother to address the points made in my post linked here from this thread... you simply choose not to deal with them at all. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16626&view=findpost&p=207565 FMJ bullets do NOT leave dust particles High velocity FMJ bullets do not hit flesh and muscle and simply stop short Post after post you dismiss evidence opposing your opinions as irrelevent... and offer nothing in the way of support... you bring up everything BUT what was discussed... ala the WCR... misdirect and confuse - Tell you what - answer ONE QUESTION - please explain how you can prove THAT rifle was fired THAT day and by Oswald. and please don't dance araound it. You and I both know that a fired rifle leaves residue in the barrel but that residue cannot be placed in a timeframe. Either the barrel was clean or it was not. If clean, the answer is obvious... if not, please show how that means it was fired THAT day. Thanks All these other questions that you refuse to address have nothing at all to do with it - right? How and when he built the Snipers Nest, reassembled the rifle that couldn't fit in the paper bag in Wesley's car to begin with... that no on saw him enter the building with, remove it from the garage, practice with it, clean it, purchase ammo for it... etc.... that there are no prints on these snipers nest boxes, or on the assembled rifle, clip or hulls. That he was seen on the 2nd floor as late as 12:25 and definitely at 12:15 when he should have already been at the window - not knowing exactly when the limo would pass. That he encouters Baker less than 90 seconds after the shots, in a place consistent with where he was seen 5-10 minutes before. That the rifle did not work as designed since with the chambering of the last bullet the clip should fall out... Alyea's film shows no such thing nor does any testimony mention a clip falling out when Frtiz works the bolt. Nor is there a photo of a clip at the TSBD, or the paper bag for that matter. Thomas - I have no disput with you over your knowledge of rifles and ammo, shooting and/or snipering... but your ignoring posts that offer evidence in opposition to your conclusions speaks volumes... so please just address that one question. and maybe give a little thought to the memo describing a bullet lodged behind JFK's ear while they already had the "other" bullet that hit JFK... thx DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 Appreciate the input Mark yet I don't think anything in my post supports CE399 as the Magic Bullet except for mentioning it passing thru JC and the effects on the bullet's weight compared to, supposedly, the same ammunition behaving completely differently. I've not read where Thomas posted what you describe as his position yet I have not read everything to be sure. In either case, CE399 still supposedly passed thru someone's body and emerges without any trace of that occuring. I've also stated that SWITCHING evidence was much more likely than PLANTING evidence There are some very definitive statements in his post and I believe I've addressed them... If Thomas could reply I am sure we both can be satisfied. He wrote: P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB. You in agreement to that statement? or this one given the analysis I posted? 1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB. and finally this one: the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event. These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims.... DJ "These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims..." Quite incorrect! CE399 proves absolutely that it, and it alone, is directly responsible for the upper back/lower neck wound incurred by JFK. (Hint) The fact that the deformed base to CE399 measures 4mm X 7mm and the fact that the "punch-type" wound of entry into the back of JFK measures exactly 4mm X 7mm, should provide a clue for even those who are not "smarter than a fifth grader". Actually! It is exactly correct! (Note: see the cone-shaped/flat-based fragment of CE840 for the lead protrusion which squeezed out the base of CE399 and was subsequently sheared as a result of impact with a bone of the vertebral column. If Mr Purvis actually means that CE399 did NOT pass thru JFK, but entered him EXACTLY perpendicular, base first, after tumbling thru the air after hitting a limb... I see why he prefers to state that this is the "Magic Bullet" as not only does it enter and leave perfect dimensions that match the pre-flatteneed bullet... but it too disappears. Maybe it's the bullet referred to by Belmont here: If this letter is a proven fake, please say so... thx. And then the Autopsy states it did not hit a bone: Autopsy report: The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck. This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony structures in its path through the body. The FBI report may be more in line with Thomas' theory... yet where'd the bullet go? And if a pointed bullet was found on JC's stretcher as having come out of JC's thigh... even more evidence of a 2nd shooter. Sibert/O'Neill report During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. and from the autopsy again: 2. The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in the upper right posterior thorax. Beneath the skin there is ecchymosis of subcutaneous tissue and musculature. The missile path through the fascia and musculature cannot be easily proved. The wound presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Perry of Dallas in the low anterior cervical region. CE399 had no blood, tissue, fibers at all on it... if the bullet entered open end first and left fragments in his chest how is it that the bullet is completely clean? Finally, Mr. Purvis, you state the rifle was ABSOLUTELY fired during the assassination event. The fact that a wound matches a bullet has no direct bearing at all as to whether a rifle was fired that day or not. Or even the fact that bullet matches that rifle... we have no idea how THAT bullet came into being... CE399 is not substantiated by anyone who supposed found it and transported it. Please explain to us novices how THAT rifle was proven to have been fired THAT day... everything I've read says you can only tell if the rifle was NOT fired - if it was cleaned prior to that day and not fired, it would still be clean... if not clean you would have to prove that the rifle was cleaned and not fired prior to that day, and then found residue from firing it. Are you able to do any of this? DJ It would be a complete waste of my time to attempt to explain forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact to anyone who operates on hearsay; half-truth; rumor; innuendo; and an occassional outright lie. As a general rule, those who waste their time chasing mythological creatures (mythological multiple assassins; body kidnappers; wound alteration specialists; bullet planters; and giant conspiratorial concepts which employ virtually every agency of the U.S. Government (+ a few outsiders)) Are most unlikely to either understand the factual evidence and/or accept it when it is demonstrated to them. And no! CE399 IS NOT the "Magic Bullet". It is still with us. A principal concept of "Magic" is the ability to make something disappear. Thomas, Not wanting to engage in a conversation with supporting evidence or science is par for course.... None of what you claim to be forensic, ballistic, pathological or physical fact is supportable. and wandering off into direction unknown in your posts doesn't make you any more convincing... The only reason the "Magic Bullet" CE399 is still with us is becasue it had nothing at all to do with the injuries sustained on 11/22/63 as is with most all the other "evidence". You've got a bullet entering the body, leaving lead fragments yet emerging without a trace of evidence it was in contact with anyone. Nothing on that bullet suggests it ever came close to JFK. And I posted the studies that show how the chemical composition of the bullet fragments can be matched to a variety of bullets... or did you not even both reading something that may disagree with your unsupported opinions? And we thank Mr Knight for clarifying Thomas' CE399 position... the "oswald fired-hit the limb-tumbled thru the air-entered JFK exactly perpedicular so as to cause a 4x7mm entrance wound-and then is found where?" We can agree that all three of us know that CE399 and the SBT are inconsistent. I agree that CE399 did NOT enter JC... but I also say it did not hit anyone else for that matter. Thomas talks of reliability yet forgets the age of the MC, the age of the ammo, and the condition of both when found. 5. Although the WCC Carcano ammo was available, the 7.35mm Carcano ammo (Italian Manufacture) is, and was quite reliable ammunition as well.Therefore, whether one ended up with the 6.5mm version with WCC ammo, or the 7.35mm version with the Italian manufacture ammo, they still had a highly reliable weapon system. He further neglects to address how Oswald even came into possession of the rifle and how the backyard photo shows a different rifle entirely. You don't even bother to address the points made in my post linked here from this thread... you simply choose not to deal with them at all. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16626&view=findpost&p=207565 FMJ bullets do NOT leave dust particles High velocity FMJ bullets do not hit flesh and muscle and simply stop short Post after post you dismiss evidence opposing your opinions as irrelevent... and offer nothing in the way of support... you bring up everything BUT what was discussed... ala the WCR... misdirect and confuse - Tell you what - answer ONE QUESTION - please explain how you can prove THAT rifle was fired THAT day and by Oswald. Thanks All these other questions that you refuse to address have nothing at all to do with it - right? How and when he built the Snipers Nest, reassembled the rifle that couldn't fit in the paper bag in Wesley's car to begin with... that no on saw him enter the building with, remove it from the garage, practice with it, clean it, purchase ammo for it... etc.... that there are no prints on these snipers nest boxes, or on the assembled rifle, clip or hulls. That he was seen on the 2nd floor as late as 12:25 and definitely at 12:15 when he should have already been at the window - not knowing exactly when the limo would pass. That he encouters Baker less than 90 seconds after the shots, in a place consistent with where he was seen 5-10 minutes before. That the rifle did not work as designed since with the chambering of the last bullet the clip should fall out... Alyea's film shows no such thing nor does any testimony mention a clip falling out when Frtiz works the bolt. Nor is there a photo of a clip at the TSBD, or the paper bag for that matter. Thomas - I have no disput with you over your knowledge of rifles and ammo, shooting and/or snipering... but your ignoring posts that offer evidence in opposition to your conclusions speaks volumes... so please just address that one question. and maybe give a little thought to the memo describing a bullet lodged behind JFK's ear while they already had the "other" bullet that hit JFK... thx DJ My appreciation for having provided a prime example as to exactly how little you know in regards to the evidence: 1. The only reason the "Magic Bullet" CE399 is still with us is becasue it had nothing at all to do with the injuries sustained on 11/22/63 as is with most all the other "evidence". Answer: Since CE399 has never disappeared, it has never exibited any qualities of "Magic". In fact, it is merely a plain ole everyday WCC Carcano bullet which is responsible for a given set of wounds. (Hint/again: Magic things are good at the ole disappearing act) 2. Thomas talks of reliability yet forgets the age of the MC, the age of the ammo, and the condition of both when found. Answer: Irrelevant as to the age of the Carcano recovered from the sixth floor, it still "bench-tested" to be as accurate as were the current (1960's) issue U.S. M-14 rifle which also still happens to be the basis for most of the standard issue sniper rifles. As regards the ammunition, it was (and still is) superior quality military grade/standard ammunition in which virtually 100 out of 100 rounds will fire with excellent results. 3. "He further neglects to address how Oswald even came into possession of the rifle and how the backyard photo shows a different rifle entirely." Answer: LHO is holding some version of the Carcano "short rifle". Since I have completely lost my "crystal ball", there exists absolutely no means by which I can define as to whether it is a 6.5mm version (Model 91/38) or whether it is is a Model 38 (7.35mm). As to where he obtained the weapon, one would most assuredly have to know firstly exactly what caliber it actually is. Nevertheless, there exists absolutely ZERO factual proof that it is not/was not the weapon which was recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB, being the 6.5mm version which was (solely) utilized in the assassination of JFK. (note: of course there also exists absolutely no factual proof that it is the weapon which was utilized to shoot JFK with either) 4. "You've got a bullet entering the body, leaving lead fragments yet emerging without a trace of evidence it was in contact with anyone. Nothing on that bullet suggests it ever came close to JFK." Answer: Had you taken the time and effort to research CE399, then you quite possibly would come to realize exactly how completely inaccurate and non-factual the entirity of that statement is. 5. FMJ bullets do NOT leave dust particles Answer: Incorrect again! It is unknown within the realm of ballistics for an "armor piercing" round to severely fragment upon contact with any portion of the human anatomy. However, FMJ rounds commonly do so, leaving behind tremendous amounts of their inner lead core, after impact bone. Last time I checked, they did not refer to it as "skull bone" for any reason other than it being just that!---BONE! 6. High velocity FMJ bullets do not hit flesh and muscle and simply stop short Answer: First off, for the record, the Carcano, at 2,000 to 2,200 fps does not quite qualify as "high velocity". Although it is very close and falls within the upper range of the "medium" velocity weapons. Lastly, you can rest assured that many, many, many bullets have begun their sojurn towards a target only to ultimately penetrate that target for a short distance as a result of having it's velocity interrupted in flight. 7. Tell you what - answer ONE QUESTION - please explain how you can prove THAT rifle was fired THAT day and by Oswald. Answer: First off, since I was in Athens, Ohio working at the time of the assassination, I have no proof (other than what already exists) as to who assassinated JFK. Merely that all evidence points to LHO as the most probable person. Secondly, the bullets themselves tell a prudent person that they were fired from the assassination weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 Appreciate the input Mark yet I don't think anything in my post supports CE399 as the Magic Bullet except for mentioning it passing thru JC and the effects on the bullet's weight compared to, supposedly, the same ammunition behaving completely differently. I've not read where Thomas posted what you describe as his position yet I have not read everything to be sure. In either case, CE399 still supposedly passed thru someone's body and emerges without any trace of that occuring. I've also stated that SWITCHING evidence was much more likely than PLANTING evidence There are some very definitive statements in his post and I believe I've addressed them... If Thomas could reply I am sure we both can be satisfied. He wrote: P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB. You in agreement to that statement? or this one given the analysis I posted? 1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB. and finally this one: the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event. These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims.... DJ "These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims..." Quite incorrect! CE399 proves absolutely that it, and it alone, is directly responsible for the upper back/lower neck wound incurred by JFK. (Hint) The fact that the deformed base to CE399 measures 4mm X 7mm and the fact that the "punch-type" wound of entry into the back of JFK measures exactly 4mm X 7mm, should provide a clue for even those who are not "smarter than a fifth grader". Actually! It is exactly correct! (Note: see the cone-shaped/flat-based fragment of CE840 for the lead protrusion which squeezed out the base of CE399 and was subsequently sheared as a result of impact with a bone of the vertebral column. If Mr Purvis actually means that CE399 did NOT pass thru JFK, but entered him EXACTLY perpendicular, base first, after tumbling thru the air after hitting a limb... I see why he prefers to state that this is the "Magic Bullet" as not only does it enter and leave perfect dimensions that match the pre-flatteneed bullet... but it too disappears. Maybe it's the bullet referred to by Belmont here: If this letter is a proven fake, please say so... thx. And then the Autopsy states it did not hit a bone: Autopsy report: The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck. This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony structures in its path through the body. The FBI report may be more in line with Thomas' theory... yet where'd the bullet go? And if a pointed bullet was found on JC's stretcher as having come out of JC's thigh... even more evidence of a 2nd shooter. Sibert/O'Neill report During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. and from the autopsy again: 2. The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in the upper right posterior thorax. Beneath the skin there is ecchymosis of subcutaneous tissue and musculature. The missile path through the fascia and musculature cannot be easily proved. The wound presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Perry of Dallas in the low anterior cervical region. CE399 had no blood, tissue, fibers at all on it... if the bullet entered open end first and left fragments in his chest how is it that the bullet is completely clean? Finally, Mr. Purvis, you state the rifle was ABSOLUTELY fired during the assassination event. The fact that a wound matches a bullet has no direct bearing at all as to whether a rifle was fired that day or not. Or even the fact that bullet matches that rifle... we have no idea how THAT bullet came into being... CE399 is not substantiated by anyone who supposed found it and transported it. Please explain to us novices how THAT rifle was proven to have been fired THAT day... everything I've read says you can only tell if the rifle was NOT fired - if it was cleaned prior to that day and not fired, it would still be clean... if not clean you would have to prove that the rifle was cleaned and not fired prior to that day, and then found residue from firing it. Are you able to do any of this? DJ It would be a complete waste of my time to attempt to explain forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact to anyone who operates on hearsay; half-truth; rumor; innuendo; and an occassional outright lie. As a general rule, those who waste their time chasing mythological creatures (mythological multiple assassins; body kidnappers; wound alteration specialists; bullet planters; and giant conspiratorial concepts which employ virtually every agency of the U.S. Government (+ a few outsiders)) Are most unlikely to either understand the factual evidence and/or accept it when it is demonstrated to them. And no! CE399 IS NOT the "Magic Bullet". It is still with us. A principal concept of "Magic" is the ability to make something disappear. Thomas, Not wanting to engage in a conversation with supporting evidence or science is par for course.... None of what you claim to be forensic, ballistic, pathological or physical fact is supportable. and wandering off into direction unknown in your posts doesn't make you any more convincing... The only reason the "Magic Bullet" CE399 is still with us is becasue it had nothing at all to do with the injuries sustained on 11/22/63 as is with most all the other "evidence". You've got a bullet entering the body, leaving lead fragments yet emerging without a trace of evidence it was in contact with anyone. Nothing on that bullet suggests it ever came close to JFK. And I posted the studies that show how the chemical composition of the bullet fragments can be matched to a variety of bullets... or did you not even both reading something that may disagree with your unsupported opinions? And we thank Mr Knight for clarifying Thomas' CE399 position... the "oswald fired-hit the limb-tumbled thru the air-entered JFK exactly perpedicular so as to cause a 4x7mm entrance wound-and then is found where?" We can agree that all three of us know that CE399 and the SBT are inconsistent. I agree that CE399 did NOT enter JC... but I also say it did not hit anyone else for that matter. Thomas talks of reliability yet forgets the age of the MC, the age of the ammo, and the condition of both when found. 5. Although the WCC Carcano ammo was available, the 7.35mm Carcano ammo (Italian Manufacture) is, and was quite reliable ammunition as well.Therefore, whether one ended up with the 6.5mm version with WCC ammo, or the 7.35mm version with the Italian manufacture ammo, they still had a highly reliable weapon system. He further neglects to address how Oswald even came into possession of the rifle and how the backyard photo shows a different rifle entirely. You don't even bother to address the points made in my post linked here from this thread... you simply choose not to deal with them at all. http://educationforu...ndpost&p=207565 FMJ bullets do NOT leave dust particles High velocity FMJ bullets do not hit flesh and muscle and simply stop short Post after post you dismiss evidence opposing your opinions as irrelevent... and offer nothing in the way of support... you bring up everything BUT what was discussed... ala the WCR... misdirect and confuse - Tell you what - answer ONE QUESTION - please explain how you can prove THAT rifle was fired THAT day and by Oswald. Thanks All these other questions that you refuse to address have nothing at all to do with it - right? How and when he built the Snipers Nest, reassembled the rifle that couldn't fit in the paper bag in Wesley's car to begin with... that no on saw him enter the building with, remove it from the garage, practice with it, clean it, purchase ammo for it... etc.... that there are no prints on these snipers nest boxes, or on the assembled rifle, clip or hulls. That he was seen on the 2nd floor as late as 12:25 and definitely at 12:15 when he should have already been at the window - not knowing exactly when the limo would pass. That he encouters Baker less than 90 seconds after the shots, in a place consistent with where he was seen 5-10 minutes before. That the rifle did not work as designed since with the chambering of the last bullet the clip should fall out... Alyea's film shows no such thing nor does any testimony mention a clip falling out when Frtiz works the bolt. Nor is there a photo of a clip at the TSBD, or the paper bag for that matter. Thomas - I have no disput with you over your knowledge of rifles and ammo, shooting and/or snipering... but your ignoring posts that offer evidence in opposition to your conclusions speaks volumes... so please just address that one question. and maybe give a little thought to the memo describing a bullet lodged behind JFK's ear while they already had the "other" bullet that hit JFK... thx DJ My appreciation for having provided a prime example as to exactly how little you know in regards to the evidence: 1. The only reason the "Magic Bullet" CE399 is still with us is becasue it had nothing at all to do with the injuries sustained on 11/22/63 as is with most all the other "evidence". Answer: Since CE399 has never disappeared, it has never exibited any qualities of "Magic". In fact, it is merely a plain ole everyday WCC Carcano bullet which is responsible for a given set of wounds. (Hint/again: Magic things are good at the ole disappearing act) 2. Thomas talks of reliability yet forgets the age of the MC, the age of the ammo, and the condition of both when found. Answer: Irrelevant as to the age of the Carcano recovered from the sixth floor, it still "bench-tested" to be as accurate as were the current (1960's) issue U.S. M-14 rifle which also still happens to be the basis for most of the standard issue sniper rifles. As regards the ammunition, it was (and still is) superior quality military grade/standard ammunition in which virtually 100 out of 100 rounds will fire with excellent results. 3. "He further neglects to address how Oswald even came into possession of the rifle and how the backyard photo shows a different rifle entirely." Answer: LHO is holding some version of the Carcano "short rifle". Since I have completely lost my "crystal ball", there exists absolutely no means by which I can define as to whether it is a 6.5mm version (Model 91/38) or whether it is is a Model 38 (7.35mm). As to where he obtained the weapon, one would most assuredly have to know firstly exactly what caliber it actually is. Nevertheless, there exists absolutely ZERO factual proof that it is not/was not the weapon which was recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB, being the 6.5mm version which was (solely) utilized in the assassination of JFK. (note: of course there also exists absolutely no factual proof that it is the weapon which was utilized to shoot JFK with either) 4. "You've got a bullet entering the body, leaving lead fragments yet emerging without a trace of evidence it was in contact with anyone. Nothing on that bullet suggests it ever came close to JFK." Answer: Had you taken the time and effort to research CE399, then you quite possibly would come to realize exactly how completely inaccurate and non-factual the entirity of that statement is. 5. FMJ bullets do NOT leave dust particles Answer: Incorrect again! It is unknown within the realm of ballistics for an "armor piercing" round to severely fragment upon contact with any portion of the human anatomy. However, FMJ rounds commonly do so, leaving behind tremendous amounts of their inner lead core, after impact bone. Last time I checked, they did not refer to it as "skull bone" for any reason other than it being just that!---BONE! 6. High velocity FMJ bullets do not hit flesh and muscle and simply stop short Answer: First off, for the record, the Carcano, at 2,000 to 2,200 fps does not quite qualify as "high velocity". Although it is very close and falls within the upper range of the "medium" velocity weapons. Lastly, you can rest assured that many, many, many bullets have begun their sojurn towards a target only to ultimately penetrate that target for a short distance as a result of having it's velocity interrupted in flight. 7. Tell you what - answer ONE QUESTION - please explain how you can prove THAT rifle was fired THAT day and by Oswald. Answer: First off, since I was in Athens, Ohio working at the time of the assassination, I have no proof (other than what already exists) as to who assassinated JFK. Merely that all evidence points to LHO as the most probable person. Secondly, the bullets themselves tell a prudent person that they were fired from the assassination weapon. Thomas, Thanks for your contributions to the discussion. Knowing what you know about the rifle and Oswald, do you think Oswald was crazy, psychologically deranged, or was he ideologically motivated? Thanks for your opinion, BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 Appreciate the input Mark yet I don't think anything in my post supports CE399 as the Magic Bullet except for mentioning it passing thru JC and the effects on the bullet's weight compared to, supposedly, the same ammunition behaving completely differently. I've not read where Thomas posted what you describe as his position yet I have not read everything to be sure. In either case, CE399 still supposedly passed thru someone's body and emerges without any trace of that occuring. I've also stated that SWITCHING evidence was much more likely than PLANTING evidence There are some very definitive statements in his post and I believe I've addressed them... If Thomas could reply I am sure we both can be satisfied. He wrote: P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB. You in agreement to that statement? or this one given the analysis I posted? 1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB. and finally this one: the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event. These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims.... DJ "These are his words and there is simply no way to prove these claims..." Quite incorrect! CE399 proves absolutely that it, and it alone, is directly responsible for the upper back/lower neck wound incurred by JFK. (Hint) The fact that the deformed base to CE399 measures 4mm X 7mm and the fact that the "punch-type" wound of entry into the back of JFK measures exactly 4mm X 7mm, should provide a clue for even those who are not "smarter than a fifth grader". Actually! It is exactly correct! (Note: see the cone-shaped/flat-based fragment of CE840 for the lead protrusion which squeezed out the base of CE399 and was subsequently sheared as a result of impact with a bone of the vertebral column. If Mr Purvis actually means that CE399 did NOT pass thru JFK, but entered him EXACTLY perpendicular, base first, after tumbling thru the air after hitting a limb... I see why he prefers to state that this is the "Magic Bullet" as not only does it enter and leave perfect dimensions that match the pre-flatteneed bullet... but it too disappears. Maybe it's the bullet referred to by Belmont here: If this letter is a proven fake, please say so... thx. And then the Autopsy states it did not hit a bone: Autopsy report: The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck. This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony structures in its path through the body. The FBI report may be more in line with Thomas' theory... yet where'd the bullet go? And if a pointed bullet was found on JC's stretcher as having come out of JC's thigh... even more evidence of a 2nd shooter. Sibert/O'Neill report During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. and from the autopsy again: 2. The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in the upper right posterior thorax. Beneath the skin there is ecchymosis of subcutaneous tissue and musculature. The missile path through the fascia and musculature cannot be easily proved. The wound presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Perry of Dallas in the low anterior cervical region. CE399 had no blood, tissue, fibers at all on it... if the bullet entered open end first and left fragments in his chest how is it that the bullet is completely clean? Finally, Mr. Purvis, you state the rifle was ABSOLUTELY fired during the assassination event. The fact that a wound matches a bullet has no direct bearing at all as to whether a rifle was fired that day or not. Or even the fact that bullet matches that rifle... we have no idea how THAT bullet came into being... CE399 is not substantiated by anyone who supposed found it and transported it. Please explain to us novices how THAT rifle was proven to have been fired THAT day... everything I've read says you can only tell if the rifle was NOT fired - if it was cleaned prior to that day and not fired, it would still be clean... if not clean you would have to prove that the rifle was cleaned and not fired prior to that day, and then found residue from firing it. Are you able to do any of this? DJ It would be a complete waste of my time to attempt to explain forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact to anyone who operates on hearsay; half-truth; rumor; innuendo; and an occassional outright lie. As a general rule, those who waste their time chasing mythological creatures (mythological multiple assassins; body kidnappers; wound alteration specialists; bullet planters; and giant conspiratorial concepts which employ virtually every agency of the U.S. Government (+ a few outsiders)) Are most unlikely to either understand the factual evidence and/or accept it when it is demonstrated to them. And no! CE399 IS NOT the "Magic Bullet". It is still with us. A principal concept of "Magic" is the ability to make something disappear. Thomas, Not wanting to engage in a conversation with supporting evidence or science is par for course.... None of what you claim to be forensic, ballistic, pathological or physical fact is supportable. and wandering off into direction unknown in your posts doesn't make you any more convincing... The only reason the "Magic Bullet" CE399 is still with us is becasue it had nothing at all to do with the injuries sustained on 11/22/63 as is with most all the other "evidence". You've got a bullet entering the body, leaving lead fragments yet emerging without a trace of evidence it was in contact with anyone. Nothing on that bullet suggests it ever came close to JFK. And I posted the studies that show how the chemical composition of the bullet fragments can be matched to a variety of bullets... or did you not even both reading something that may disagree with your unsupported opinions? And we thank Mr Knight for clarifying Thomas' CE399 position... the "oswald fired-hit the limb-tumbled thru the air-entered JFK exactly perpedicular so as to cause a 4x7mm entrance wound-and then is found where?" We can agree that all three of us know that CE399 and the SBT are inconsistent. I agree that CE399 did NOT enter JC... but I also say it did not hit anyone else for that matter. Thomas talks of reliability yet forgets the age of the MC, the age of the ammo, and the condition of both when found. 5. Although the WCC Carcano ammo was available, the 7.35mm Carcano ammo (Italian Manufacture) is, and was quite reliable ammunition as well.Therefore, whether one ended up with the 6.5mm version with WCC ammo, or the 7.35mm version with the Italian manufacture ammo, they still had a highly reliable weapon system. He further neglects to address how Oswald even came into possession of the rifle and how the backyard photo shows a different rifle entirely. You don't even bother to address the points made in my post linked here from this thread... you simply choose not to deal with them at all. http://educationforu...ndpost&p=207565 FMJ bullets do NOT leave dust particles High velocity FMJ bullets do not hit flesh and muscle and simply stop short Post after post you dismiss evidence opposing your opinions as irrelevent... and offer nothing in the way of support... you bring up everything BUT what was discussed... ala the WCR... misdirect and confuse - Tell you what - answer ONE QUESTION - please explain how you can prove THAT rifle was fired THAT day and by Oswald. Thanks All these other questions that you refuse to address have nothing at all to do with it - right? How and when he built the Snipers Nest, reassembled the rifle that couldn't fit in the paper bag in Wesley's car to begin with... that no on saw him enter the building with, remove it from the garage, practice with it, clean it, purchase ammo for it... etc.... that there are no prints on these snipers nest boxes, or on the assembled rifle, clip or hulls. That he was seen on the 2nd floor as late as 12:25 and definitely at 12:15 when he should have already been at the window - not knowing exactly when the limo would pass. That he encouters Baker less than 90 seconds after the shots, in a place consistent with where he was seen 5-10 minutes before. That the rifle did not work as designed since with the chambering of the last bullet the clip should fall out... Alyea's film shows no such thing nor does any testimony mention a clip falling out when Frtiz works the bolt. Nor is there a photo of a clip at the TSBD, or the paper bag for that matter. Thomas - I have no disput with you over your knowledge of rifles and ammo, shooting and/or snipering... but your ignoring posts that offer evidence in opposition to your conclusions speaks volumes... so please just address that one question. and maybe give a little thought to the memo describing a bullet lodged behind JFK's ear while they already had the "other" bullet that hit JFK... thx DJ My appreciation for having provided a prime example as to exactly how little you know in regards to the evidence: 1. The only reason the "Magic Bullet" CE399 is still with us is becasue it had nothing at all to do with the injuries sustained on 11/22/63 as is with most all the other "evidence". Answer: Since CE399 has never disappeared, it has never exibited any qualities of "Magic". In fact, it is merely a plain ole everyday WCC Carcano bullet which is responsible for a given set of wounds. (Hint/again: Magic things are good at the ole disappearing act) 2. Thomas talks of reliability yet forgets the age of the MC, the age of the ammo, and the condition of both when found. Answer: Irrelevant as to the age of the Carcano recovered from the sixth floor, it still "bench-tested" to be as accurate as were the current (1960's) issue U.S. M-14 rifle which also still happens to be the basis for most of the standard issue sniper rifles. As regards the ammunition, it was (and still is) superior quality military grade/standard ammunition in which virtually 100 out of 100 rounds will fire with excellent results. 3. "He further neglects to address how Oswald even came into possession of the rifle and how the backyard photo shows a different rifle entirely." Answer: LHO is holding some version of the Carcano "short rifle". Since I have completely lost my "crystal ball", there exists absolutely no means by which I can define as to whether it is a 6.5mm version (Model 91/38) or whether it is is a Model 38 (7.35mm). As to where he obtained the weapon, one would most assuredly have to know firstly exactly what caliber it actually is. Nevertheless, there exists absolutely ZERO factual proof that it is not/was not the weapon which was recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB, being the 6.5mm version which was (solely) utilized in the assassination of JFK. (note: of course there also exists absolutely no factual proof that it is the weapon which was utilized to shoot JFK with either) 4. "You've got a bullet entering the body, leaving lead fragments yet emerging without a trace of evidence it was in contact with anyone. Nothing on that bullet suggests it ever came close to JFK." Answer: Had you taken the time and effort to research CE399, then you quite possibly would come to realize exactly how completely inaccurate and non-factual the entirity of that statement is. 5. FMJ bullets do NOT leave dust particles Answer: Incorrect again! It is unknown within the realm of ballistics for an "armor piercing" round to severely fragment upon contact with any portion of the human anatomy. However, FMJ rounds commonly do so, leaving behind tremendous amounts of their inner lead core, after impact bone. Last time I checked, they did not refer to it as "skull bone" for any reason other than it being just that!---BONE! 6. High velocity FMJ bullets do not hit flesh and muscle and simply stop short Answer: First off, for the record, the Carcano, at 2,000 to 2,200 fps does not quite qualify as "high velocity". Although it is very close and falls within the upper range of the "medium" velocity weapons. Lastly, you can rest assured that many, many, many bullets have begun their sojurn towards a target only to ultimately penetrate that target for a short distance as a result of having it's velocity interrupted in flight. 7. Tell you what - answer ONE QUESTION - please explain how you can prove THAT rifle was fired THAT day and by Oswald. Answer: First off, since I was in Athens, Ohio working at the time of the assassination, I have no proof (other than what already exists) as to who assassinated JFK. Merely that all evidence points to LHO as the most probable person. Secondly, the bullets themselves tell a prudent person that they were fired from the assassination weapon. Thomas, Thanks for your contributions to the discussion. Knowing what you know about the rifle and Oswald, do you think Oswald was crazy, psychologically deranged, or was he ideologically motivated? Thanks for your opinion, BK Based on the actions of LHO, one can readily assume much of the following: 1. He WAS NOT some deranged "lone Assassin". 2. He could have just as easily been the "designated scapegoat" as he was the actual assassin. 3. As a result of his activities (back to New Orleans and then to each of the scheduled stops on JFK's Texas trip PRIOR to JFK's arrival), one can assume that LHO was stalking and looking for an adequate vantage point at which to shoot JFK, or else establishing a "pattern" which would set himself up as the primary suspect. 4. The actions of LHO and his going into "hiding"* just prior to the assassination is indicative that he was involved in the assassination up to his nose. He could have just as easily been manipulated into these actions by others in order to be designated scapegoat, as merely done so in order to hide until the assassination was completed. Whichever the case, the actions of LHO were far and above any level of training which is indicated that he received, and someone was undoubtedly "guiding" these actions. *Renting an apartment under an assumed name as well as mailing a package (brown paper bag" to a fictional address. This was a well thought out and well planned assassination of a President of the United States, and although LHO certainly had the marksmanship ability, there is no indications of his ever having received any form of training in "Special Operations". Not to say that he could not have "studied" up on his own, but the "false trail" which he has left to many doorsteps is just one of the signs of a "higher power". Hope that was more clear than mud! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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