Is the "Other" film a hoax?

[Bill Miller]

Information provided by Gary Mack:

Gary writes, "You wondered if there was/is any independent confirmation for Zapruder being in Dealey Plaza. The answer is yes. First, the still frame showing Marilyn Sitzman talking to a man comes from TV news film shot by KTVT photographer Don Cook; the camera original footage was donated to The Sixth Floor Museum by the Roy Cooper family and the copyright was donated by KTVT. Since Roy compiled several hours of footage but reedited it, it's not possible to establish how soon after the assassination the film was shot. But scenes in adjacent footage that has no splices suggests it was very early after the shooting. I don't recognize the man, but he appears to be a reporter. Second, Dallas Morning News reporter Harry McCormick stopped Zapruder in Dealey Plaza and interviewed him there before he returned to his Dal-Tex office. McCormick wrote about the encounter early in 1964 when the News asked employees to write their personal accounts of the assassination weekend. His story, and additional confirmation from reporter Darwin Payne, appears in the Museum's Zapruder film time line: http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/about/zapruder-film-chronology "

Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

Bill,

The detail in the flag between the red arrows.

As I asked previously, if someone has a non-newspaper copy of Altgen's with this detail, I'm all ears.

It does not exist in any of the best copies that have been submitted so far.

chris

I personally wouldn't waste time on obviously altered Newspaper prints. The one above has had the rear view mirror mount removed and I am certain that JFK didn't have such a narrow head ... just to name a few obvious alterations/air brush attempts. The clearest Altgens 6 print I have seen is the print Josiah Thompson posted long ago ... that would be the print that doesn't show JFK's head as narrow as most pan fish. If a newspaper print shows more detail in the flag than Josiah's print, then it has been retouched, especially when other signs of retouching are seen.

So someone actually took time to add that detail to the logo on the flag. O.K. !!!!

I guess detail was added to the stonework of the TSBD, in the upper right side of the photo, too.

Or, maybe the newspaper version is a copy from a better generation Altgen's, than what is available, regardless of what doctoring/airbrushing/ etc,etc was done to the original.

chris

[Robin Unger]

Recently on this forum:

Robin Unger and Martin Hinrichs conclusively proved that the limo did not make a wide turn via their study of the lane markings in the Towner film.

Maybe Martin, and/or Robin could once again post their findings.

Hi Duncan

Is this the thread.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16847&st=40

Someone can check with Gary Mack, but I seem to recall him saying to me once that the limo could be seen in part during that turn and it stayed to the middle lane. I believe that we were discussing Truly's statement about the turn. Gary would be the best person to ask for it was a long time ago and I may not be remembering it correctly.

Bill

Dorman frame showing part of the Limo and follow up car during the turn.

Dorman frame showing the distance from the south side curb to the motorcycles.

Chris / Martin

It would be interesting exersise to try to overlay the Dorman frame showing the Limo & follow up car onto a scaled overhead of the Dealey plaza corner.

Note the motorcycle is siiting next to the white road stripe !

Edited November 17, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

SS Re-creation

Showing approx towner limo position during the turn, and also the white lines on elm.

also showing the traffic light seen in the Dorman frames.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

2-frame GIF

quickly put together GIF approx scaling

[Dean Hagerman]

and that the alteratationists, who simply believe without a single shred of proof that there was a wide limo turn, are profoundly wrong.

So Duncan, Roy Truly in your opinion isnt worth a shred?

Did Truly lie? Do you believe him on anything else that day (Like seeing Oswald in Lunchroom with Baker)?

Or did he just lie about the Limo?

Edited November 17, 2010 by Dean Hagerman

[Craig Lamson]

So someone actually took time to add that detail to the logo on the flag. O.K. !!!!

I guess detail was added to the stonework of the TSBD, in the upper right side of the photo, too.

Or, maybe the newspaper version is a copy from a better generation Altgen's, than what is available, regardless of what doctoring/airbrushing/ etc,etc was done to the original.

chris

This details the problem with using repro images to judge photo quality, too many unknowns to make a firm conclusion. In your example of the z frames in Life yes they do look different but why? Is the original film different? Where there differences in the quality of the dupe photos from the original frames? Were the sep films shot differently? Did the guys at the film stripping table get the the one page slighlty out of register? Where the forms on which each page was placed tun on a different press? On a different day? By a different pressman? Was a printing plate out of register? Did they make adjustments to the color fountains to compensate for an ad images that ran just above or below the z frames on the form? Did they use makeready pages in bindery, made while getting the press "up to color"?

I know you do prepress, were you around pre-digital? When sep films were made in a process camera and films cut and pasted, by color layer, by guys using razor blades and red litho tape? Lots of silly things happened in this workflow. Heck even today with current tech and the best presses and pressmen around its still a crapshoot when you have the same image span two pages and jump the gutter. Getting both halfs to match is nutty. I have piles of examples of the same image in a brochure looking different from one page to the next.

[John Dolva]

He might have been pissed for all we know.

However I think Truly played a weirdly significant role.

Again, a person with an apperent authority over that of the DPD.

[Martin Hinrichs]

So Duncan, Roy Truly in your opinion isnt worth a shred?

Did Truly lie? Do you believe him on anything else that day (Like seeing Oswald in Lunchroom with Baker)?

Or did he just lie about the Limo?

Dean, i believe as Duncan too, that Roy Truly was mistaken at this point.

I believe he is honest but his memory is not supporting the photographic evidence.

This would be Jim Towner, Tina Towner and the Elsie Dorman film. Thats too much.

Thanks Duncan for pasting my quoting.

best to you Dean and Duncan

Martin

[Dean Hagerman]

I don't think Truly lied, I think he was simply mistaken.

Duncan,

I can live with a witness making a mistake, but why or how would Truly just "think" the limo made a wide turn almost up onto the curb?

Just seems like a pointless thing for him to say if it didnt really happen.

[Martin Hinrichs]

So someone actually took time to add that detail to the logo on the flag. O.K. !!!!

I guess detail was added to the stonework of the TSBD, in the upper right side of the photo, too.

Or, maybe the newspaper version is a copy from a better generation Altgen's, than what is available, regardless of what doctoring/airbrushing/ etc,etc was done to the original.

chris

This details the problem with using repro images to judge photo quality, too many unknowns to make a firm conclusion. In your example of the z frames in Life yes they do look different but why? Is the original film different? Where there differences in the quality of the dupe photos from the original frames? Were the sep films shot differently? Did the guys at the film stripping table get the the one page slighlty out of register? Where the forms on which each page was placed tun on a different press? On a different day? By a different pressman? Was a printing plate out of register? Did they make adjustments to the color fountains to compensate for an ad images that ran just above or below the z frames on the form? Did they use makeready pages in bindery, made while getting the press "up to color"?

I know you do prepress, were you around pre-digital? When sep films were made in a process camera and films cut and pasted, by color layer, by guys using razor blades and red litho tape? Lots of silly things happened in this workflow. Heck even today with current tech and the best presses and pressmen around its still a crapshoot when you have the same image span two pages and jump the gutter. Getting both halfs to match is nutty. I have piles of examples of the same image in a brochure looking different from one page to the next.

Craig, sorry for being off topic.

Is my memory playing tricks with me or do your posting show up much later?

I was sure there was no posting from you hours ago, but now it's up. Did that happen always or am i mistaken?

I may have missed many of your previous postings as well. Not sure

Anyway

best

Martin

[Bill Miller]

Personally Bill, I think Zappy and Sitzman were on the pedestal, I think Zappy shot film, I think that was used with the "other" film to create what we know today as the Z-film

I just get tired of my fellow alterationists being made fun of and called out on the Zappy/Sitzman issue in regards to being clearly seen in any film or photos during the assassination.

Dean, your fellow alteration supporters are getting what they deserve in my view. For instance, I had one of them going on years ago about there was no clear image of Sitzman being in the Plaza and yet the woman turns and faces Zapruder's camera just prior to the assassination. That footage is taken at the colonnade with Sitzman talking to her friends - the Hester's. Then there is the interview of Sitzman at the pedestal ,,, pictures of Sitzman near the TSBD ... all showing her in the same clothes as seen on the woman at the pedestal. So why does another poorly researched alteration claim have to be made from all of this ... the answer may be what I just said 'poorly researched'.

As far as the Zapruder film being mixed with the alleged 'other film' .... that is impossible and here is why ...........................

It has been said that the other film is amazingly sharp ... the Zapruder film is not. The other film would have to be taken from another location than Zapruder's, this means it would be impossible to combine frames from the two films for they would not match when it came to the line of sight ... it would make Zapruder appear to have changed filming locations and that just didn't happen.

The other film could not have been shot from the doorway of the shelter or from within the windows on the walls because not only would Sitzman and Zapruder be in the shot (which no one has claimed so far) but the Bezner and Willis photos show a good view of the interior of that shelter and no one can be seen anywhere.

Bill

Edited November 17, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Craig Lamson]

So someone actually took time to add that detail to the logo on the flag. O.K. !!!!

I guess detail was added to the stonework of the TSBD, in the upper right side of the photo, too.

Or, maybe the newspaper version is a copy from a better generation Altgen's, than what is available, regardless of what doctoring/airbrushing/ etc,etc was done to the original.

chris

This details the problem with using repro images to judge photo quality, too many unknowns to make a firm conclusion. In your example of the z frames in Life yes they do look different but why? Is the original film different? Where there differences in the quality of the dupe photos from the original frames? Were the sep films shot differently? Did the guys at the film stripping table get the the one page slighlty out of register? Where the forms on which each page was placed tun on a different press? On a different day? By a different pressman? Was a printing plate out of register? Did they make adjustments to the color fountains to compensate for an ad images that ran just above or below the z frames on the form? Did they use makeready pages in bindery, made while getting the press "up to color"?

I know you do prepress, were you around pre-digital? When sep films were made in a process camera and films cut and pasted, by color layer, by guys using razor blades and red litho tape? Lots of silly things happened in this workflow. Heck even today with current tech and the best presses and pressmen around its still a crapshoot when you have the same image span two pages and jump the gutter. Getting both halfs to match is nutty. I have piles of examples of the same image in a brochure looking different from one page to the next.

Craig, sorry for being off topic.

Is my memory playing tricks with me or do your posting show up much later?

I was sure there was no posting from you hours ago, but now it's up. Did that happen always or am i mistaken?

I may have missed many of your previous postings as well. Not sure

Anyway

best

Martin

My posts must be reviewed by a moderator before making it into a thread. Sometimes it takea a day or more to get approved. Its the price I pay for being me

[Doug Weldon]

Personally Bill, I think Zappy and Sitzman were on the pedestal, I think Zappy shot film, I think that was used with the "other" film to create what we know today as the Z-film

I just get tired of my fellow alterationists being made fun of and called out on the Zappy/Sitzman issue in regards to being clearly seen in any film or photos during the assassination.

Dean, your fellow alteration supporters are getting what they deserve in my view. For instance, I had one of them going on years ago about there was no clear image of Sitzman being in the Plaza and yet the woman turns and faces Zapruder's camera just prior to the assassination. That footage is taken at the colonnade with Sitzman talking to her friends - the Hester's. Then there is the interview of Sitzman at the pedestal ,,, pictures of Sitzman near the TSBD ... all showing her in the same clothes as seen on the woman at the pedestal. So why does another poorly researched alteration claim have to be made from all of this ... the answer may be what I just said 'poorly researched'.

As far as the Zapruder film being mixed with the alleged 'other film' .... that is impossible and here is why ...........................

It has been said that the other film is amazingly sharp ... the Zapruder film is not. The other film would have to be taken from another location than Zapruder's, this means it would be impossible to combine frames from the two films for they would not match when it came to the line of sight ... it would make Zapruder appear to have changed filming locations and that just didn't happen.

The other film could not have been shot from the doorway of the shelter or from within the windows on the walls because not only would Sitzman and Zapruder be in the shot (which no one has claimed so far) but the Bezner and Willis photos show a good view of the interior of that shelter and no one can be seen anywhere.

Bill

Bill:

You never responded to this: I do want to be accurate as to your position. Many thanks,

Doug Weldon

Bill Miller, on 25 March 2010 - 08:42 PM, said:

Josiah Thompson, on Feb 16 2010, 01:05 AM, said:

First question: Is it the case that Altgens #5 (taken at Z 255) shows damage to the windshield? Or is it the case that no discernible damage to the windshield is present in Altgens #5?

Second question: Would you agree that Altgens #6 shows damage to the windshield in the approximate spot where Frazier's notes and photo show damage to the windshield? Can you discern any difference between the damage shown in Altgens #6 to the windshield and the later damage to the windshield memorialized in Frazier's notes and photo?

Josiah Thompson

I cannot believe that some still think they see a hole in the windshield in Altgens 6, but if all they have is the less than sharp image Jack posted, then I can understand the mistake.

In the full Betzner photo there was a black woman holding what looks to be a rolled up newspaper in her hand as she is waving at the President passing by. JFK had not yet been hit when Betzner took his photo. As the car rolled passed and as the woman lowered her newspaper - Altgens took his photo at a time that at least two shots appear to have been fired. A good quality Altgens 6 photo shows no hole/nebula, but rather the black woman's hand holding onto the newspaper she had with her.

When Altgens took his 7th photo, the windshield was obviously damaged by that point. If one does a hi-res scan of that damage and reverses the image so to be compared to the White House Garage photo of the windshield, then in my view they cannot be the same windshield. The damage in Altgens 7 shows a good size frosted area of glass that the sunlight is illuminating. That frosted appearance can be from nothing else than the many cracks in the glass from a projectile hitting it. The White House Garage photos show only a small chip in the glass and no multitude of cracks that would pick up sunlight as what happened in Altgens 7.

Somewhere between this forum and Lancer's there should be images that were created showing what I have just said to be true.

Bill Miller

Bill:

Though I do not wish to reengage this thread. To Peter McGuire: No, the shot could not have come from the right side. To Bill Miller: I believe your post was clear but I would like everyone to understand what you are stating. You are stating that the damage seen in the windshield in Altgen's 7 is NOT the same as the damage seen in the windshield in the WH Garage photos? Correct? Therefore, you are stating that the windshield seen in Altgen's 7 was changed to another damaged windshield before or at the time the limousine arrived at the WH Garage? Correct?

My best,

Doug Weldon

[Bill Miller]

Bill:

Though I do not wish to reengage this thread. To Peter McGuire: No, the shot could not have come from the right side. To Bill Miller: I believe your post was clear but I would like everyone to understand what you are stating. You are stating that the damage seen in the windshield in Altgen's 7 is NOT the same as the damage seen in the windshield in the WH Garage photos? Correct? Therefore, you are stating that the windshield seen in Altgen's 7 was changed to another damaged windshield before or at the time the limousine arrived at the WH Garage? Correct?

My best,

Doug Weldon

Hello Doug,

There is no doubt in my mind that the so-called nebula in the Altgens #6 hole claim is made up of the black woman's hand which is holding a rolled up newspaper. I have studied this extensively and I am 100% certain of my conclusion.

Now about the White House Garage photos .... What was said above is accurate. I took a hi-resolution scan of a good print of Altgens #7 and cropped out the damage seen on the windshield. I reversed it and tested it against the chip in the glass in the White House garage photos ... namely the best close up that was taken.

One of the things that jumped out at me is that Altgens #7 shows a large amount of frost around the defect in the windshield. This frost appearance is caused by the many fine cracks in the glass that are being illuminated by direct sunlight hitting them. I think we all know what I am talking about here. I couldn't even guess at all the fine cracks that make up the frosty appearance seen in Altgen's #7.

The White House Garage photo that I concentrated on was the good clear close up of the chip. The windshield surrounding the border of that chip appears pristine ... no fine cracks are discernible at all. I personally do not see how this can be dismissed. The defect in the glass in the White House garage photo is in the right location, but if my memory is correct .... the large cracks extending outward did not match between Altgens #7 and the White House garage photos in my opinion for what that's worth. However, until proven otherwise, the frosting of the glass in Altgens #7 that I have mentioned tells me the two windshields in question are not the same.

Bill Miller