The Kennedy Detail

[Pat Speer]

I just watched the new Discovery channel program on The Kennedy Detail. It was fairly good, IMO. It really focused on the love these men felt for the Kennedy family, and how badly they were impacted by the assassination. It also allowed Clint Hill to say the first shot hit Kennedy without Gary Mack or some narrator saying he was wrong. It even allowed Win Lawson to claim the last two shots were much closer together than the first two...without Gary Mack or some narrator claiming he was wrong. This was kinda refreshing.

Unfortunately, it also had a number of flaws.

1. While cutting back and forth between Clint Hill's and Paul Landis' accounts of the shooting, they inserted Landis saying he heard a second report before Hill and Landis described the head shot. This hid from the viewer that BOTH Hill and Landis thought the head shot WAS the second report, and that NEITHER of them heard a shot between the one striking Kennedy in the back and the one striking Kennedy in the head.

2. There was no discussion of the late night drinking and carrying on by members of the detail the night before the shooting.

3. There was no discussion of agent Greer's slowing down the limo after the shooting began.

4. There was no discussion of Emory Roberts' ordering agent Ready back to the limo during the shooting.

5. There was no discussion of the Secret Service/FBI fight at the hospital.

6. There was no discussion of the clean-up of the limo at the hospital.

7. There was no discussion of the removal of the limo from Dallas, and agent Kinney's finding and removing evidence from the limo.

8. There was no discussion of agent Greer's having Kennedy's clothes at the autopsy, and failing to provide them to the autopsy doctors for inspection.

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Some CTs no doubt will be tempted to shoot their TVs at that point.

Still, as I said, I thought it was pretty good overall. It was very emotional, and is likely to create interest in Kennedy and his assassination among younger viewers not already interested.

P.S. In my list of flaws, I left out a BIG one. Agent Landis--one of the stars of the program--admitted in his official report that he'd thought the head shot had been fired from the knoll. This is discussed in the book. Why wasn't it mentioned in the program? A little too messy, perhaps?

Edited December 3, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Todd W. Vaughan]

I just watched the new Discovery channel program on The Kennedy Detail. It was fairly good, IMO. It really focused on the love these men felt for the Kennedy family, and how badly they were impacted by the assassination. It also allowed Clint Hill to say the first shot hit Kennedy without Gary Mack or some narrator saying he was wrong. It even allowed Win Lawson to claim the last two shots were much closer together than the first two...without Gary Mack or some narrator claiming he was wrong. This was kinda refreshing.

Unfortunately, it also had a number of flaws.

1. While cutting back and forth between Clint Hill's and Paul Landis' accounts of the shooting, they inserted Landis saying he heard a second report before Hill and Landis described the head shot. This hid from the viewer that BOTH Hill and Landis thought the head shot WAS the second report, and that NEITHER of them heard a shot between the one striking Kennedy in the back and the one striking Kennedy in the head.

2. There was no discussion of the late night drinking and carrying on by members of the detail the night before the shooting.

3. There was no discussion of agent Greer's slowing down the limo after the shooting began.

4. There was no discussion of Emory Roberts' ordering agent Ready back to the limo during the shooting.

5. There was no discussion of the Secret Service/FBI fight at the hospital.

6. There was no discussion of the clean-up of the limo at the hospital.

7. There was no discussion of the removal of the limo from Dallas, and agent Kinney's finding and removing evidence from the limo.

8. There was no discussion of agent Greer's having Kennedy's clothes at the autopsy, and failing to provide them to the autopsy doctors for inspection.

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Some CTs no doubt will be tempted to shoot their TVs at that point.

Still, as I said, I thought it was pretty good overall. It was very emotional, and is likely to create interest in Kennedy and his assassination among younger viewers not already interested.

Pat,

Refresh my memory - what evidence did Kinney find and remove from the limousine?

Todd

[David Von Pein]

JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/The Kennedy Detail

Edited December 3, 2010 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

I just watched the new Discovery channel program on The Kennedy Detail. It was fairly good, IMO. It really focused on the love these men felt for the Kennedy family, and how badly they were impacted by the assassination. It also allowed Clint Hill to say the first shot hit Kennedy without Gary Mack or some narrator saying he was wrong. It even allowed Win Lawson to claim the last two shots were much closer together than the first two...without Gary Mack or some narrator claiming he was wrong. This was kinda refreshing.

Unfortunately, it also had a number of flaws.

1. While cutting back and forth between Clint Hill's and Paul Landis' accounts of the shooting, they inserted Landis saying he heard a second report before Hill and Landis described the head shot. This hid from the viewer that BOTH Hill and Landis thought the head shot WAS the second report, and that NEITHER of them heard a shot between the one striking Kennedy in the back and the one striking Kennedy in the head.

2. There was no discussion of the late night drinking and carrying on by members of the detail the night before the shooting.

3. There was no discussion of agent Greer's slowing down the limo after the shooting began.

4. There was no discussion of Emory Roberts' ordering agent Ready back to the limo during the shooting.

5. There was no discussion of the Secret Service/FBI fight at the hospital.

6. There was no discussion of the clean-up of the limo at the hospital.

7. There was no discussion of the removal of the limo from Dallas, and agent Kinney's finding and removing evidence from the limo.

8. There was no discussion of agent Greer's having Kennedy's clothes at the autopsy, and failing to provide them to the autopsy doctors for inspection.

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Some CTs no doubt will be tempted to shoot their TVs at that point.

Still, as I said, I thought it was pretty good overall. It was very emotional, and is likely to create interest in Kennedy and his assassination among younger viewers not already interested.

Pat,

Refresh my memory - what evidence did Kinney find and remove from the limousine?

Todd

I was referring to his "inspection" of the limousine on the flight back to Washington, and his removal of a large piece of skull bone. (He supposedly put it in his pocket.)

FWIW, I don't think there was anything conspiratorial about it. But it shows nonetheless, that the SS failed to appreciate that they were in custody of a crime scene that needed to be studied by forensic investigators.

As for the rest of what I called "flaws," many of them were caused by the fact the program had 3 living members of the motorcade--and several other members of the detail--through which they could tell the story, but that Kellerman, Greer, Kinney, and Roberts were all long dead. This undoubtedly led the program's creators to focus on the first hand recollections they could have the men featured in the program talk about, and ignore much of what was only available second-hand, even if it was needed to tell the full story.

This is also one of the reasons I find the failure to discuss the drinking party perhaps the most egregious flaw. The agents discussed their feelings of guilt, and yet never discussed what we can only assume was one of the main causes of their feelings--the fact that a number of the detail--including Clint Hill--had opted to go out partying the night before and were not well-rested on the day of the shooting.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Christopher Hall]

I just watched the new Discovery channel program on The Kennedy Detail. It was fairly good, IMO. It really focused on the love these men felt for the Kennedy family, and how badly they were impacted by the assassination. It also allowed Clint Hill to say the first shot hit Kennedy without Gary Mack or some narrator saying he was wrong. It even allowed Win Lawson to claim the last two shots were much closer together than the first two...without Gary Mack or some narrator claiming he was wrong. This was kinda refreshing.

Unfortunately, it also had a number of flaws.

1. While cutting back and forth between Clint Hill's and Paul Landis' accounts of the shooting, they inserted Landis saying he heard a second report before Hill and Landis described the head shot. This hid from the viewer that BOTH Hill and Landis thought the head shot WAS the second report, and that NEITHER of them heard a shot between the one striking Kennedy in the back and the one striking Kennedy in the head.

2. There was no discussion of the late night drinking and carrying on by members of the detail the night before the shooting.

3. There was no discussion of agent Greer's slowing down the limo after the shooting began.

4. There was no discussion of Emory Roberts' ordering agent Ready back to the limo during the shooting.

5. There was no discussion of the Secret Service/FBI fight at the hospital.

6. There was no discussion of the clean-up of the limo at the hospital.

7. There was no discussion of the removal of the limo from Dallas, and agent Kinney's finding and removing evidence from the limo.

8. There was no discussion of agent Greer's having Kennedy's clothes at the autopsy, and failing to provide them to the autopsy doctors for inspection.

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Some CTs no doubt will be tempted to shoot their TVs at that point.

Still, as I said, I thought it was pretty good overall. It was very emotional, and is likely to create interest in Kennedy and his assassination among younger viewers not already interested.

I concur with your observations, except that one of the agents referred to (at least I thought he did) the dispute between DPD and the Secret Service agents over the removal of JFK's corpse from Parkland.

The agents the show interviewed were still crushed (several of them cried) 47 years after the incident.

[William Kelly]

I just watched the new Discovery channel program on The Kennedy Detail. It was fairly good, IMO. It really focused on the love these men felt for the Kennedy family, and how badly they were impacted by the assassination. It also allowed Clint Hill to say the first shot hit Kennedy without Gary Mack or some narrator saying he was wrong. It even allowed Win Lawson to claim the last two shots were much closer together than the first two...without Gary Mack or some narrator claiming he was wrong. This was kinda refreshing.

Unfortunately, it also had a number of flaws.

1. While cutting back and forth between Clint Hill's and Paul Landis' accounts of the shooting, they inserted Landis saying he heard a second report before Hill and Landis described the head shot. This hid from the viewer that BOTH Hill and Landis thought the head shot WAS the second report, and that NEITHER of them heard a shot between the one striking Kennedy in the back and the one striking Kennedy in the head.

2. There was no discussion of the late night drinking and carrying on by members of the detail the night before the shooting.

3. There was no discussion of agent Greer's slowing down the limo after the shooting began.

4. There was no discussion of Emory Roberts' ordering agent Ready back to the limo during the shooting.

5. There was no discussion of the Secret Service/FBI fight at the hospital.

6. There was no discussion of the clean-up of the limo at the hospital.

7. There was no discussion of the removal of the limo from Dallas, and agent Kinney's finding and removing evidence from the limo.

8. There was no discussion of agent Greer's having Kennedy's clothes at the autopsy, and failing to provide them to the autopsy doctors for inspection.

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Some CTs no doubt will be tempted to shoot their TVs at that point.

Still, as I said, I thought it was pretty good overall. It was very emotional, and is likely to create interest in Kennedy and his assassination among younger viewers not already interested.

Pat,

Refresh my memory - what evidence did Kinney find and remove from the limousine?

Todd

I was referring to his "inspection" of the limousine on the flight back to Washington, and his removal of a large piece of skull bone. (He supposedly put it in his pocket.)

FWIW, I don't think there was anything conspiratorial about it. But it shows nonetheless, that the SS failed to appreciate that they were in custody of a crime scene that needed to be studied by forensic investigators.

As for the rest of what I called "flaws," many of them were caused by the fact the program had 3 living members of the motorcade--and several other members of the detail--through which they could tell the story, but that Kellerman, Greer, Kinney, and Roberts were all long dead. This undoubtedly led the program's creators to focus on the first hand recollections they could have the men featured in the program talk about, and ignore much of what was only available second-hand, even if it was needed to tell the full story.

This is also one of the reasons I find the failure to discuss the drinking party perhaps the most egregious flaw. The agents discussed their feelings of guilt, and yet never discussed what we can only assume was one of the main causes of their feelings--the fact that a number of the detail--including Clint Hill--had opted to go out partying the night before and were not well-rested on the day of the shooting.

You are absolutely right Pat, the limo was a crime scene that wasn't treated proprly.

And the joint FBI-SS inspection of the vehicle at midnight at the Secret Service garage in DC is an important event that included SA Orrin Bartlett, the FBI liason to the SS who also

turns up in New Orleans with SAIC SS NO John W. Rice a few days later. Bartlett also retreived bullet fragments from the car that contained DNA that has not been properly examined.

According to Deke DeLoach's LBJ library oral history, LBJ didn't trust the Secret Service and reqested an FBI agent - specificaly Orrin Bartlett to be aboard AF1 whenever he traveled.

Someone should examine what happened at that inspection of the car crime scene at midnight on the night of the assassination at the SS garage.

BK

[Ron Ecker]

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Was Grant interviewed? Isn't he specifically the one who told Dallas PD, the night before the motorcade, to move the motorcycles back from alongside the limo?

[Pat Speer]

I just watched the new Discovery channel program on The Kennedy Detail. It was fairly good, IMO. It really focused on the love these men felt for the Kennedy family, and how badly they were impacted by the assassination. It also allowed Clint Hill to say the first shot hit Kennedy without Gary Mack or some narrator saying he was wrong. It even allowed Win Lawson to claim the last two shots were much closer together than the first two...without Gary Mack or some narrator claiming he was wrong. This was kinda refreshing.

Unfortunately, it also had a number of flaws.

1. While cutting back and forth between Clint Hill's and Paul Landis' accounts of the shooting, they inserted Landis saying he heard a second report before Hill and Landis described the head shot. This hid from the viewer that BOTH Hill and Landis thought the head shot WAS the second report, and that NEITHER of them heard a shot between the one striking Kennedy in the back and the one striking Kennedy in the head.

2. There was no discussion of the late night drinking and carrying on by members of the detail the night before the shooting.

3. There was no discussion of agent Greer's slowing down the limo after the shooting began.

4. There was no discussion of Emory Roberts' ordering agent Ready back to the limo during the shooting.

5. There was no discussion of the Secret Service/FBI fight at the hospital.

6. There was no discussion of the clean-up of the limo at the hospital.

7. There was no discussion of the removal of the limo from Dallas, and agent Kinney's finding and removing evidence from the limo.

8. There was no discussion of agent Greer's having Kennedy's clothes at the autopsy, and failing to provide them to the autopsy doctors for inspection.

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Some CTs no doubt will be tempted to shoot their TVs at that point.

Still, as I said, I thought it was pretty good overall. It was very emotional, and is likely to create interest in Kennedy and his assassination among younger viewers not already interested.

I concur with your observations, except that one of the agents referred to (at least I thought he did) the dispute between DPD and the Secret Service agents over the removal of JFK's corpse from Parkland.

The agents the show interviewed were still crushed (several of them cried) 47 years after the incident.

As I recall, they discussed the dispute they'd had with the Dallas coroner. Landis even admitted that they were taking the body and the law be damned. But no one mentioned that there was an actual fight between an SS agent and an FBI agent, and that the FBI agent was knocked to the ground when he ran towards the emergency room without showing his ID.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Was Grant interviewed? Isn't he specifically the one who told Dallas PD, the night before the motorcade, to move the motorcycles back from alongside the limo?

Grant's only contribution was his stating that he'd sat in on some of the Oswald interviews and that Oswald was an arrogant little person thirsting after fame or whatever. The usual crap. "I knew the commie was guilty and he wouldn't admit it so he was obviously guilty and like the worst person ever," blah blah blah... (Not an exact quote)

[William Kelly]

I just watched the new Discovery channel program on The Kennedy Detail. It was fairly good, IMO. It really focused on the love these men felt for the Kennedy family, and how badly they were impacted by the assassination. It also allowed Clint Hill to say the first shot hit Kennedy without Gary Mack or some narrator saying he was wrong. It even allowed Win Lawson to claim the last two shots were much closer together than the first two...without Gary Mack or some narrator claiming he was wrong. This was kinda refreshing.

Unfortunately, it also had a number of flaws.

1. While cutting back and forth between Clint Hill's and Paul Landis' accounts of the shooting, they inserted Landis saying he heard a second report before Hill and Landis described the head shot. This hid from the viewer that BOTH Hill and Landis thought the head shot WAS the second report, and that NEITHER of them heard a shot between the one striking Kennedy in the back and the one striking Kennedy in the head.

2. There was no discussion of the late night drinking and carrying on by members of the detail the night before the shooting.

3. There was no discussion of agent Greer's slowing down the limo after the shooting began.

4. There was no discussion of Emory Roberts' ordering agent Ready back to the limo during the shooting.

5. There was no discussion of the Secret Service/FBI fight at the hospital.

6. There was no discussion of the clean-up of the limo at the hospital.

7. There was no discussion of the removal of the limo from Dallas, and agent Kinney's finding and removing evidence from the limo.

8. There was no discussion of agent Greer's having Kennedy's clothes at the autopsy, and failing to provide them to the autopsy doctors for inspection.

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Some CTs no doubt will be tempted to shoot their TVs at that point.

Still, as I said, I thought it was pretty good overall. It was very emotional, and is likely to create interest in Kennedy and his assassination among younger viewers not already interested.

I concur with your observations, except that one of the agents referred to (at least I thought he did) the dispute between DPD and the Secret Service agents over the removal of JFK's corpse from Parkland.

The agents the show interviewed were still crushed (several of them cried) 47 years after the incident.

As I recall, they discussed the dispute they'd had with the Dallas coroner. Landis even admitted that they were taking the body and the law be damned. But no one mentioned that there was an actual fight between an SS agent and an FBI agent, and that the FBI agent was knocked to the ground when he ran towards the emergency room without showing his ID.

Well, the skirmish betwen the SS agent and the FBI agent at the door to the emergency room at Parkland is a good example of the anitmosity that existed between those agencies, the event is mentioned in detail in TKD, except for the name of the FBI agent, while the SS agent, Andy Berger, is described as one of the agents who contribted to the book, and was the agent who became pals with Sinatra after the breakup between JFK and Frank, probably becase of the public disclosures over Giancana and the Cal-Neva Lodge.

How come we haven't seen a report by the FBI agent who was nailed by Berger?

TKD must be viewed not only in what it says that is new and interesting, but in what it fails to metion as well.

BK

[Jim Feemster]

Hi Pat,

Would the fact that the casket had to have it's handles removed before it would fit through the door of the plane be a difinitive way to tell if it was changed at some point to fit the" two caskets " theory? One of the agents descibed the casket as a cheap affair for the president's body to be shipped in and i have never heard of the handles removal before. He even goes on to say the piece of broken handle he was holding slipped from his grasp at one point almost causing a dropped casket.

jim

[Pat Speer]

Hi Pat,

Would the fact that the casket had to have it's handles removed before it would fit through the door of the plane be a difinitive way to tell if it was changed at some point to fit the" two caskets " theory? One of the agents descibed the casket as a cheap affair for the president's body to be shipped in and i have never heard of the handles removal before. He even goes on to say the piece of broken handle he was holding slipped from his grasp at one point almost causing a dropped casket.

jim

I've seen archives documents about that casket. The funeral home never got paid for it and had to get their congressman--amazingly enough, the by-then former mayor of Dallas, Earl Cabell--to petition the government for their money. I've also seen something claiming that at RFK's request the casket was dumped at sea.

Since no photos exist of the casket at Bethesda, it would be hard to prove the casket arriving at Bethesda was any different than the one pulled off the plane.

The eyewitnesses are mixed on this. Some seemed to remember Kennedy arriving in a plastic shipping casket. But I don't find their statements conclusive.

[Pat Speer]

I just watched the new Discovery channel program on The Kennedy Detail. It was fairly good, IMO. It really focused on the love these men felt for the Kennedy family, and how badly they were impacted by the assassination. It also allowed Clint Hill to say the first shot hit Kennedy without Gary Mack or some narrator saying he was wrong. It even allowed Win Lawson to claim the last two shots were much closer together than the first two...without Gary Mack or some narrator claiming he was wrong. This was kinda refreshing.

Unfortunately, it also had a number of flaws.

1. While cutting back and forth between Clint Hill's and Paul Landis' accounts of the shooting, they inserted Landis saying he heard a second report before Hill and Landis described the head shot. This hid from the viewer that BOTH Hill and Landis thought the head shot WAS the second report, and that NEITHER of them heard a shot between the one striking Kennedy in the back and the one striking Kennedy in the head.

2. There was no discussion of the late night drinking and carrying on by members of the detail the night before the shooting.

3. There was no discussion of agent Greer's slowing down the limo after the shooting began.

4. There was no discussion of Emory Roberts' ordering agent Ready back to the limo during the shooting.

5. There was no discussion of the Secret Service/FBI fight at the hospital.

6. There was no discussion of the clean-up of the limo at the hospital.

7. There was no discussion of the removal of the limo from Dallas, and agent Kinney's finding and removing evidence from the limo.

8. There was no discussion of agent Greer's having Kennedy's clothes at the autopsy, and failing to provide them to the autopsy doctors for inspection.

9. There WAS, however, some discussion of Oswald--some acceptable, with one agent claiming that with Oswald's murder we would never know what "really really" happened--and some not, with David Grant and Jerry Blaine basically calling Oswald a psycho who killed Kennedy for attention.

Some CTs no doubt will be tempted to shoot their TVs at that point.

Still, as I said, I thought it was pretty good overall. It was very emotional, and is likely to create interest in Kennedy and his assassination among younger viewers not already interested.

I concur with your observations, except that one of the agents referred to (at least I thought he did) the dispute between DPD and the Secret Service agents over the removal of JFK's corpse from Parkland.

The agents the show interviewed were still crushed (several of them cried) 47 years after the incident.

As I recall, they discussed the dispute they'd had with the Dallas coroner. Landis even admitted that they were taking the body and the law be damned. But no one mentioned that there was an actual fight between an SS agent and an FBI agent, and that the FBI agent was knocked to the ground when he ran towards the emergency room without showing his ID.

Well, the skirmish betwen the SS agent and the FBI agent at the door to the emergency room at Parkland is a good example of the anitmosity that existed between those agencies, the event is mentioned in detail in TKD, except for the name of the FBI agent, while the SS agent, Andy Berger, is described as one of the agents who contribted to the book, and was the agent who became pals with Sinatra after the breakup between JFK and Frank, probably becase of the public disclosures over Giancana and the Cal-Neva Lodge.

How come we haven't seen a report by the FBI agent who was nailed by Berger?

TKD must be viewed not only in what it says that is new and interesting, but in what it fails to metion as well.

BK

Bill, I believe I've read that the FBI agent who got popped was one of the ones used in the May 24 re-enactment. I can't remember if it was James Anderton, JFK's stand-in, or Doyle Williams, Connally's stand-in, however.

[Bernice Moore]

This is the highest rated article at ctka.net right now.

ANd Blaine has admitted in so many words that he wrote the book to counter VInce's work.

http://ctka.net/revi...tailreview.html

Stay tuned. VInce will be writing about this show soon.

Bill i did wonder if imo they were crocodile tears for what happened,or guilt, because they know what they did not do, and or because it is all coming out and being exposed..

no doubt some filled up and they ruddy well should , after Jackie recommended clint hill receive the award for his actions that day, which was a grand gesture, and very nice for clint hill, but in knowing what they all did not do that day, and had to know what went on, i have wondered how he could accept it, though he was the only agent that did try to help he was Jackies protector that day not jfk's, and correct he also was one of the drinking buddies the night before, though he must not have been a heavy drinker to have been able to react as he did, imo i found the tears now a bit much, seeing what information they have been sitting on all these years..b

[Bernice Moore]

here is the coffin deep sixed information...http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg14235.html

Sat, 29 May 1999 02:26:08 -0700 -Caveat Lector-JFK's Casket Was Dropped in OceanBy KAREN GULLO.c The Associated PressWASHINGTON (AP) -- A bronze casket used to carry President Kennedy's bodyfrom Dallas to Washington is in a watery grave -- 9,000 feet down in theAtlantic Ocean, according to assassination documents.Materials to be released Tuesday at the National Archives will show that inearly 1965 the casket was dropped from a military plane into an area whereunstable and outdated weapons and ammunition are dumped, Kermit Hall, amember of the now-defunct Assassination Records Review Board, told TheAssociated Press.``The documents that will be released show it was dropped off theMaryland-Delaware border in 9,000 feet of water,'' Hall said Friday night.``There's actually a map in the documents that pinpoints the coordinateswhere it was dropped.''The revelation -- on the eve of what would have been President Kennedy's 82ndbirthday today -- that the casket was sunk resolves a lingering mystery aboutits whereabouts. But it also fuels speculation among assassinationresearchers that it was discarded to hide foul play.``The coffin is evidence just like the body is evidence,'' said David Lifton,who wrote a book about medical evidence in the Nov. 22, 1963, assassination.``You don't destroy evidence.''What happened to the bronze casket has been a lingering question over thepast three decades. Last year a document released by the archives showed thata General Services Administration truck picked up the coffin on March 19,1964.In its effort to ferret assassination-related documents and information fromvarious government agencies, the review panel asked the GSA where the casketwas. The agency said in the summer of 1998 that it didn't know.The documents from GSA and the Justice and Defense departments being releasednext week, however, describe the disposition in detail, Hall said.``Essentially what was going on was an effort to make sure the casket didn'tturn into a historic relic for the marketplace,'' he said.Kennedy was buried at Arlington National Cemetery in a mahogany coffin thathad been purchased in Washington to replace the bronze one, which was missinga handle and had been damaged.In September 1965, former Texas Rep. Earle Cabell wrote to then-AttorneyGeneral Nicholas Katzenbach recommending that the bronze casket be discardedso it could never become a relic.``It is an extremely handsome, expensive, all-bronze, silk-lined casket, andfortunately, and properly, was paid for by the General ServicesAdministration, and presently is in the possession of GSA,'' Cabell wrote.``This item has ... value for the morbidly curious. And I believe that I amcorrect in stating that this morbid curiosity is that which we all seek tostop.''Katzenbach said in an interview Friday that he doesn't recall details aboutthe disposition of the casket. If anyone had asked him if it should bedisposed of, ``I'd have said that's a good idea,'' he said.Lifton thinks there might have been a darker motive.In conducting his research, Lifton talked with witnesses who said Kennedy'sbody arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital in a gray metal shipping casket, notthe bronze one obtained in Dallas. That the bronze casket was dumped in theocean -- after the Warren Commission issued its report in 1964 -- makes himwonder what clues it might have yielded to investigators.``If it had been an ongoing murder investigation, this would be obstructionof justice,'' Lifton said.Douglas Horne, who was the chief analyst for military records at thecongressionally created review board, speculated that the bronze casket wasdestroyed to end the two-coffin controversy.``I think the way to get rid of the problem is you get rid of the casket. Youthrow it out of an airplane,'' said Horne.DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER==========CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandicscreeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid mattersand 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outrightfrauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effectsspread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial andnazi's need not apply.Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.========================================================================Archives Available at:http://home.ease.lso...hives/CTRL.htmlhttp:/========================================================================To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:]

b

Edited December 4, 2010 by Bernice Moore