DID ZAPRUDER FILM "THE ZAPRUDER FILM"?

[Cliff Varnell]

The Parkland doctor's did NOT say that the neck wound was a wound of entry.

They said that it looked like an entrance wound.

Duncan,

Exactly!

The real issue here and the one they try to so desperately avoid, is how did he suffer the hemo/pneumo thorax?

You seem desperate not to address the bullet path in the neck x-ray. JFK suffered a nicked trachea, a bruised lung tip, a hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process, and air air pocket overlaying the right C7 and T1 transverse processes.

Front to back. No exit.

What kind of round leaves an air pocket and no bullet?

[Cliff Varnell]

The Parkland doctor's did NOT say that the neck wound was a wound of entry.

They said that it looked like an entrance wound.

We KNOW it was an entrance wound.

The back wound was too low to be associated with the throat wound, especially given the path on the neck x-ray.

Nellie Connally described JFK as grabbing his throat, and we can see him react to throat trauma in the Zap.

The only Dealey Plaza back wound witness, SSA Glenn Bennett, described the back shot as separate from the first

"firecracker" he heard.

The back wound was probed by Humes and then Finck and no transit was found.

We KNOW that JFK's back wound was too low because of the location of the bullet hole in his tucked in custom made dress shirt in the vicinity of T3. And a ton of corroborative evidence for the T3 back wound is found in the Death Certificate (signed off as "verified"), the autopsy face sheet properly filled out in pencil (signed off as "verified", also in pencil as per proper autopsy protocol), and the eyewitness statements of more than a dozen people who saw the wound.

Any thing else, Duncan?

Edited April 8, 2011 by Cliff Varnell

[Mike Williams]

The Parkland doctor's did NOT say that the neck wound was a wound of entry.

They said that it looked like an entrance wound.

We KNOW it was an entrance wound.

The back wound was too low to be associated with the throat wound, especially given the path on the neck x-ray.

Nellie Connally described JFK as grabbing his throat, and we can see him react to throat trauma in the Zap.

The only Dealey Plaza back wound witness, SSA Glenn Bennett, described the back shot as separate from the first

"firecracker" he heard.

The back wound was probed by Humes and then Finck and no transit was found.

We KNOW that JFK's back wound was too low because of the location of the bullet hole in his tucked in custom made dress shirt in the vicinity of T3. And a ton of corroborative evidence for the T3 back wound is found in the Death Certificate (signed off as "verified"), the autopsy face sheet properly filled out in pencil (signed off as "verified", also in pencil as per proper autopsy protocol), and the eyewitness statements of more than a dozen people who saw the wound.

Any thing else, Duncan?

Clifford so we have TWO non transiting shots that line up perfectly is that what you are actually claiming?

Come on man, no one who has any clue about ballistics would ever buy such crap.

Hole in back. WITH COPPER ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE JACKET.

Nicked vertebra.

Pneumo/hemothorax

Bruised upper right lung.

Nicked trachea.

Exit on shirt NO COPPER

EXIT nick in tie NO COPPER

Clearly back to front, for anyone who has a remote clue about what they are discussing.

Here is another answer.

What bullet leaves an air pocket and no bullet?

ALL OF THEM.

Its called a secondary wound path, created by the shock wave of the bullet!

This is basic elementary stuff.

[Jack White]

Read what Dr. Mantik says.

Jack

[Mike Williams]

Read what Dr. Mantik says.

Jack

Will Do Jack. I have read this before, but always good to refresh! Thanks

Mike

[Cliff Varnell]

Clifford so we have TWO non transiting shots that line up perfectly is that what you are actually claiming?

No, where do you get that idea?

Two non-transiting shots that don't line up at all.

Come on man, no one who has any clue about ballistics would ever buy such crap.

The FBI men at the autopsy did. The autopsists suggested JFK was hit with rounds that dissolved. FBI

man James Sibert called the FBI Lab to inquire as to the existence of such technology. Killion, the FBI Lab guy, said they had CE399 instead. That was the end of the inquiry into blood soluble rounds, and the end of the credibility of the FBI Lab.

Hole in back. WITH COPPER ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE JACKET.

According to the FBI Lab, which has no credibility in this case.

Nicked vertebra.

Wrong. It was a hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process.

Pneumo/hemothorax

Could you provide a cite for this?

Bruised upper right lung.

The apex of the lung, in the same path as the nicked trachea and the hairline fracture of the T1 trans process.

Nicked trachea.

Correct.

Exit on shirt NO COPPER

EXIT nick in tie NO COPPER

Nonsense. The back wound was at T3 -- the bullet path ended at the right C7 and T1 transverse processes.

Clearly back to front, for anyone who has a remote clue about what they are discussing.

You are clearly unfamiliar with the evidence in the case.

Here is another answer.

What bullet leaves an air pocket and no bullet?

ALL OF THEM.

Its called a secondary wound path, created by the shock wave of the bullet!

This is basic elementary stuff.

Fine. But in the case of JFK's throat shot it did not exit and no bullet was recovered, at least

not in the official records.

If you don't understand the back wound, none of this is going to make sense to you.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

Read what Dr. Mantik says.

Jack

With all due respect, I prefer to stick with the historical record. I let one principle be my guide:

properly prepared medical evidence trumps improperly prepared medical evidence.

Once we disregard the final autopsy report, the autopsy photos, and everything regarding the

head wounds, the case falls neatly into place, in my opinion.

No expert guidance needed.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Cliff,

Bob Livingston, M.D., who was a world authority on the human brain and also an expert on wound ballistics,

explained to me that it had apparently hit bone and fragmented, one part going downward into the right lung,

the other upward an rupturing the tough membrane that covers the cerebellum, called the "tentorium". He

said that, unless the tentorium had been ruptured PRIOR to the two shots to the head--one from behind in

the vicinity of the EOP, the other entering the right temple--cerebellum would still not have been extruding

from the massive blow-out at the back of the head. Bruising of the right lung was detected, which would be

consistent with efforts to remove that bullet fragment. I would assume what was left of the fragment in the

brain was blown out by the shock waves from the frangible bullet that blew his brains out to the left/rear.

Jim

Quote:

If the neck wound was an entrance, where did it go?

I go with dissolved. It's what the autopsists suspected the night of the autopsy.

Cliff, do you have an opinion on whether a dissolving round could (or did) go through the windshield first?

I can't see anyone aiming through the windshield. Any hole there was the result of a miss, imo.

The throat shot was a perfect hit.

[Mike Williams]

Cliff,

Bob Livingston, M.D., who was a world authority on the human brain and also an expert on wound ballistics,

explained to me that it had apparently hit bone and fragmented, one part going downward into the right lung,

the other upward an rupturing the tough membrane that covers the cerebellum, called the "tentorium". He

said that, unless the tentorium had been ruptured PRIOR to the two shots to the head--one from behind in

the vicinity of the EOP, the other entering the right temple--cerebellum would still not have been extruding

from the massive blow-out at the back of the head. Bruising of the right lung was detected, which would be

consistent with efforts to remove that bullet fragment. I would assume what was left of the fragment in the

brain was blown out by the shock waves from the frangible bullet that blew his brains out to the left/rear.

Jim

Jim,

What a crock.

I would love for this wound ballistics expert to explain how a fragment of the bullet went into the right lung, and yet the parietal pleura is not ruptured! Here is a clue, it is impossible. The Parietal Pleura is the outer layer in the pleura cavity. If a bullet fragment entered this area it would have to puncture this layer. Period.

Further there is no evidence what do ever of a blow out in the back of the head. Even if there were, and with a marginal understanding of physics and Pascals law one could quickly conclude the result.

Frankly Jim, you are as incorrect about this, as you are just about anything else.

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff,

Bob Livingston, M.D., who was a world authority on the human brain and also an expert on wound ballistics,

explained to me that it had apparently hit bone and fragmented, one part going downward into the right lung,

the other upward an rupturing the tough membrane that covers the cerebellum, called the "tentorium".

This does not account for the hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process or the air pocket overlaying the C7 and T1 transverse processes, does it?

He said that, unless the tentorium had been ruptured PRIOR to the two shots to the head--one from behind in

the vicinity of the EOP, the other entering the right temple--cerebellum would still not have been extruding

from the massive blow-out at the back of the head.

An excellent argument for three head shots, the tentorium ruptured a split second before the temple shot.

Bruising of the right lung was detected, which would be consistent with efforts to remove that bullet fragment. I would assume what was left of the fragment in the brain was blown out by the shock waves from the frangible bullet that blew his brains out to the left/rear.

Jim

It wasn't just bruising of the lung tip detected on x-ray -- it was the hairline fracture of the T1 transverse process and the air pocket around the same location.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see where the good doctor's analysis takes this into account.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Cliff,

Since Mike Williams has confirmed my opinion of him as a buffoon,

a blow-hard, and a shill, let me address the same questions that I

have address to Pat and to him to you. I presume that you do not

dispute that JFK had a blow-out at the back of his head and slightly

to the right, which was about the size of your fist when you double

it up, which is substantiated by the Dealey Plaza witnesses, Clint Hill,

the Parkland physicians, both McClelland and Crenshaw's diagrams,

and David Mantik's studies of the X-rays, not to mention Gary Aguilar's

research on the descriptions of the wound--and, most importantly,

Thomas Evan Robinson's detailed observations. I assume you agree.

I have three questions for you for which my answers are given below.

(1) In relation to these three diagrams (from Parkland, from Bethesda

and from the HSCA), which most accurately represents the head wound?

(2) Where was JFK hit? Just describe the locations and nature of the

wounds he sustained, independently of your reasons for thinking so.

(3) Who is the single best witness when it comes to understanding the

wounds in corresponding to your beliefs and why do you agree with him?

My answers:

(1) The Parkland description is the most accurate. The Bethesda has

it after Humes used his saw and the HSCA presentation is indefensible.

To this day, I cannot understand why one or another member of the HSCA

medical panel, which included Cyril Wecht, M.D., J.D., did not raise

an enormous commotion in protest of the complete transformation of the

wound from its description in the signed autopsy report (the second of

these three images) and the HSCA representation (which is the third). I

might add that I have written to Cyril today to ask him this question.

(2) He was hit in the throat and incurred a small, clean oval wound.

He was hit in the back by a shot that entered about 5.5 inches below

his collar, which was a shallow wound at a downward angle that had no

point of exit. He was hit in the right temple by a shot that blew his

brains out the back of his head to the left/rear. The blow-out was a

the rear of his head, slightly to the right, and was the size of your

fist when you double it up. There was also a small entry wound to the

back of his head that entered around the EOP and was only discovered on

the basis of locating inward beveling on a small piece of bone fragment.

(3) Thomas Evan Robinson. As the mortician, he had the longest time to

examine the wounds as he prepared the body for burial. He has not only

confirmed the entry wound in the right temple, the blow-out at the back

of the head, and the wound to his back, but also testified that he had

a "nasty" throat wound. He did not observe the small, clean entry wound

because it had been completely obscured by alteration to make it look as

if it were a wound of exit. He had observed Humes take a saw to enlarge

the blow-out at the back of the head, so he knew the difference between

the wound JFK had sustained and the larger wound that Humes had created.

I have previously explained that we not only have the other Crenshaw

diagram of the throat wound before and after the tracheostomy, which

was performed by Malcolm Perry, but also Perry's description of it as a

wound of entry, which he did THREE TIMES during the Parkland press

conference, which I included in ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998) as it

Appendix ( C ). Mike Williams denial of the existence of evidence of

shots from the front is so bizarre when the evidence is so substantial

that I can't imagine why anyone would take him seriously after this.

And of course the massive blow-out of his brains and debris to the left/

rear impacted Officer Hargis so hard that he thought that he himself

had been shot. The brains splattered across the trunk was enough to

nauseate several Secret Service agents when they observed the limo in

the parking structure in Washington, D.C. And Erwin Swartz, a friend

of Zapruder, reported observing the blow out to the left/rear when he

viewed (what appears to have been) the unaltered Zapruder film after

its development in Dallas, additional evidence of a shot from the front.

Was he not aware of the fact that, when Malcolm Kilduff announced JFK's

death, he pointed to his right temple and said that it was a simple matter

of a bullet right through the head? And that, on radio and television that

day, there were reports of two shots, one to the throat and one to the head,

which Chet Huntley reported as a simple matter of a bullet to the head "which

entered his right temple", attributing that finding to Admiral George Burkley,

the president's personal physician? But enough of Mike Williams. I am more

interested in your views, given you think they come together so neatly once

we disregard the autopsy report and autopsy photographs. Your answers?

Read what Dr. Mantik says.

Jack

With all due respect, I prefer to stick with the historical record. I let one principle be my guide:

properly prepared medical evidence trumps improperly prepared medical evidence.

Once we disregard the final autopsy report, the autopsy photos, and everything regarding the

head wounds, the case falls neatly into place, in my opinion.

No expert guidance needed.

Edited April 8, 2011 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Good replies, Cliff. Doesn't Duncan know that nothing looks more like a wound of entry than a wound of entry?

The Parkland doctor's did NOT say that the neck wound was a wound of entry.

They said that it looked like an entrance wound.

We KNOW it was an entrance wound.

The back wound was too low to be associated with the throat wound, especially given the path on the neck x-ray.

Nellie Connally described JFK as grabbing his throat, and we can see him react to throat trauma in the Zap.

The only Dealey Plaza back wound witness, SSA Glenn Bennett, described the back shot as separate from the first

"firecracker" he heard.

The back wound was probed by Humes and then Finck and no transit was found.

We KNOW that JFK's back wound was too low because of the location of the bullet hole in his tucked in custom made dress shirt in the vicinity of T3. And a ton of corroborative evidence for the T3 back wound is found in the Death Certificate (signed off as "verified"), the autopsy face sheet properly filled out in pencil (signed off as "verified", also in pencil as per proper autopsy protocol), and the eyewitness statements of more than a dozen people who saw the wound.

Any thing else, Duncan?

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Cliff,

This worries me. Have you never read Douglas Weldon's chapter in MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA (2000)?

We have many witnesses to the hole in the windshield from Parkland, which was even described in his

column in The St. Louis Post-Dispatch (21 December 1963) by Richard Dudman and discussed by Bob

Livingston, M.D., in several of his contributions to ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998). The Dudman piece

may be found on page 167, Bob's on pages 165-166, among other places. The hole is even visible in

the Altgens, as I have explained in many places, including on page 149 of MURDER. (I contrast it with

the substitute presented by the Secret Service, which is shown on page 157, as well as yet another on

page 158. And did you miss my comparison of the windshields on page 436 of THE GREAT ZAPRUDER

FILM HOAX (2003)? Are you unaware of these reports and of Weldon's study or are they excluded by

the methodology you have announced of basing your work on "the historical record", as though "the

historical record" were clear and unambiguous. I am fairly taken aback by your dismissal of the studies

of the medical evidence by David W. Mantik, who is the leading expert on the medical evidence in the

world today, and your apparent ignorance of Weldon's studies. He even tracked down the official at

Ford who had been responsible for replacing the windshield. How can you be serious and neglect it?

Jim

Quote:

If the neck wound was an entrance, where did it go?

I go with dissolved. It's what the autopsists suspected the night of the autopsy.

Cliff, do you have an opinion on whether a dissolving round could (or did) go through the windshield first?

I can't see anyone aiming through the windshield. Any hole there was the result of a miss, imo.

The throat shot was a perfect hit.

[David Andrews]

What do we make of no blood on the collar and shirt front in the extant Zapruder? Even Jackie didn't report any.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Cliff,

Since Mantik is my best source on the X-rays (for a host of good reasons), where do you derive your views

about the hairline fracture of the transverse process and the air pocket? We know the X-rays have been

altered. What is your source that I might examine the evidence for myself? MORTAL ERROR (1992), page

107 has an X-ray that seems to support your interpretation. Is that your source? Do you think that one

of the Secret Service agents accidentally shot JFK? Now I am even more eager to have your answers to the

questions I have post. Where was he shot? How many times? And from what directions? Many thanks!

Jim

Cliff,

Bob Livingston, M.D., who was a world authority on the human brain and also an expert on wound ballistics,

explained to me that it had apparently hit bone and fragmented, one part going downward into the right lung,

the other upward an rupturing the tough membrane that covers the cerebellum, called the "tentorium".

This does not account for the hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process or the air pocket overlaying the C7 and T1 transverse processes, does it?

He said that, unless the tentorium had been ruptured PRIOR to the two shots to the head--one from behind in

the vicinity of the EOP, the other entering the right temple--cerebellum would still not have been extruding

from the massive blow-out at the back of the head.

An excellent argument for three head shots, the tentorium ruptured a split second before the temple shot.

Bruising of the right lung was detected, which would be consistent with efforts to remove that bullet fragment. I would assume what was left of the fragment in the brain was blown out by the shock waves from the frangible bullet that blew his brains out to the left/rear.

Jim

It wasn't just bruising of the lung tip detected on x-ray -- it was the hairline fracture of the T1 transverse process and the air pocket around the same location.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see where the good doctor's analysis takes this into account.