Bob Harris and the Battle of The Bulge

[Mike Williams]

Jim,

I also should add this as it pertains.

Is this the same Robert Harris who claims to have been studying the assassination for decades, and YET:

1) Proposes a Dal Tex shooter from an obviously closed window?

2) Claims the Limo was black

3) Claimed to own a Carcano just like Oswald's, and yet, never knew the scope was a cantilever mount? (that's a fancy word for side mount)

4) That claimed the jump seat sat on rails and was adjustable.

5) That claims JFK is grimacing shielding his face, when everyone, including the witnesses say he was smiling and waving?

6) That claimed Jackie never climbed out on the trunk?

7) That claims a shot at 285 narrowly misses the limo,(because he studied it "very closely" in his cad program) Only to find out this shot goes over by some 40 feet.

8) That claims Ronald Fuller, who's stretcher was near JBC's, was an accidental shooting victim.

9) That claims not one single person reacted to a shot before z285. Guess he missed the whole 223 thing huh?

10) That claims the evidence envelope from CE 842 was altered and forged. Just to find out all he had to do was turn the envelope over to see Fritz initials?

I have to tell you Jim, to applaud the work of Harris speaks volumes about you.

[Mike Williams]

Greg,

Thanks for posting that. Is this in the record somewhere? I do not believe I have read this before.

Hi Mike. Yes, this is the text of an Official Justice Department Document. There is literally no doubt as to its authenticity. This is the memorandum of the TAPED telephonic conversation between LBJ and Hoover. It received NO news coverage whatsoever. When the LBJ tapes were finally declassified and made available on the internet--it was as if this was insignificant.

Amazing.

Greg,

I would like to read more about his, are there threads here on it? This is pretty intriguing stuff.

[Jim Phelps]

More Pascal's Gas Equation it appears.

You really are a Marine.

The subject was and always has been the "Bob Harris Bulge Video" of the Zapruder Film. Bob nailed the second bullet effects. And I like his analysis. So did Robert Feynman, Nobel Physicist.

And me.

http://extras.journalnow.com/lostempire/tob5b.htm

http://tobaccodocuments.org/profiles/colby_frank_g.html

Edited June 6, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Greg Burnham]

Greg,

Thanks for posting that. Is this in the record somewhere? I do not believe I have read this before.

Hi Mike. Yes, this is the text of an Official Justice Department Document. There is literally no doubt as to its authenticity. This is the memorandum of the TAPED telephonic conversation between LBJ and Hoover. It received NO news coverage whatsoever. When the LBJ tapes were finally declassified and made available on the internet--it was as if this was insignificant.

Amazing.

Greg,

I would like to read more about his, are there threads here on it? This is pretty intriguing stuff.

I don't know if there are threads on that subject here, Mike. However, way back in 2000 I did a presentation on it for JFK LANCER -- I think I was the first one to point it out at a conference (maybe not). I also sent copies of the text of the actual conversation, copies of the audio tape itself, and copies of the above memorandum to EVERY NEWS SERVICE of which I was aware (ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, AP, UPI, C-SPAN) -- and guess what? I received not even a reply. Keep in mind, I did not claim it was definitive proof of anything. I purposely made sure I did not come across as a "loon" -- I simply made the information available. Not a peep from them...nothing. Then, finally, C-SPAN replied and thanked me. They have done a good job archiving, but that's it.

[Daniel Gallup]

The explanation is simple. There was no second head shot.

For one, the energy required to move the head back in the fashion we see, is impossible from a bullet.

Once one realizes that this rearward movement can not be attributed to a bullet, then things become much easier to reason.

We do know that there was blood and brain matter forward of the target, so much so that is was on the inside of the windshield, the outside of the windshield, and ALL the way up to the hood ornament of the limo. Furthermore, it had to oppose a 12-15 mph headwind to get there!

Unless one can claim that for a 60 second period on 11/22/63 the laws of physics were suspended, then there is no survivable claim that there was a second frontal head shot.

It really boils down to equal and opposite reactions. A large blood cloud emitted from the front, attributed to a rear entering bullet should, and would be replicated from the rear, if a front entering bullet had exited the back of the head.

Mike

Mike, I too am of the opinion that there was only one shot. If I may ask , what do you think accounts for Kennedy's backward movement? Best, Daniel

[Mike Williams]

More Pascal's Gas Equation it appears.

You really are a Marine.

The subject was and always has been there the Bob Harris Bulge video of the Zapruder Film. Bob nailed the second bullet effects.

Pascal Law revolves around pressure in fluid Jim.

Bob failed to prove this issue as miserably as you have failed to show my calculations wrong.

So, are you going to prove yourself and Harris correct, and prove me wrong with the actual calculations needed anytime soon?

Here is a small hint for you. A .50 caliber BMG which has massive bullet size (700g) and incredible FPE, only moves a 200+ pound object 2.5 inches even when the bullet remains in the target.

I note you completely dodge my remarks of Harris's work. I figured you would. You dodged them as handily as you dodged proving me wrong.

You Jim, have proven to be a wind bag, but there is hope, I ask yet again for you to show that I am incorrect.

[Michael Hogan]

Ahhhh ahahah. Pascal's Law is a gas equation usually dedicated to hot air.

No, it is not.

[Mike Williams]

Greg,

Thanks for posting that. Is this in the record somewhere? I do not believe I have read this before.

Hi Mike. Yes, this is the text of an Official Justice Department Document. There is literally no doubt as to its authenticity. This is the memorandum of the TAPED telephonic conversation between LBJ and Hoover. It received NO news coverage whatsoever. When the LBJ tapes were finally declassified and made available on the internet--it was as if this was insignificant.

Amazing.

Greg,

I would like to read more about his, are there threads here on it? This is pretty intriguing stuff.

I don't know if there are threads on that subject here, Mike. However, way back in 2000 I did a presentation on it for JFK LANCER -- I think I was the first one to point it out at a conference (maybe not). I also sent copies of the text of the actual conversation, copies of the audio tape itself, and copies of the above memorandum to EVERY NEWS SERVICE of which I was aware (ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, AP, UPI, C-SPAN) -- and guess what? I received not even a reply. Keep in mind, I did not claim it was definitive proof of anything. I purposely made sure I did not come across as a "loon" -- I simply made the information available. Not a peep from them...nothing. Then, finally, C-SPAN replied and thanked me. They have done a good job archiving, but that's it.

Greg,

You know my position on this case. There are Few CT's that I respect as much as I do you. I can only hold this in thought, and look further into it. Thank you for showing this to me.

[Mike Williams]

The explanation is simple. There was no second head shot.

For one, the energy required to move the head back in the fashion we see, is impossible from a bullet.

Once one realizes that this rearward movement can not be attributed to a bullet, then things become much easier to reason.

We do know that there was blood and brain matter forward of the target, so much so that is was on the inside of the windshield, the outside of the windshield, and ALL the way up to the hood ornament of the limo. Furthermore, it had to oppose a 12-15 mph headwind to get there!

Unless one can claim that for a 60 second period on 11/22/63 the laws of physics were suspended, then there is no survivable claim that there was a second frontal head shot.

It really boils down to equal and opposite reactions. A large blood cloud emitted from the front, attributed to a rear entering bullet should, and would be replicated from the rear, if a front entering bullet had exited the back of the head.

Mike

Mike, I too am of the opinion that there was only one shot. If I may ask , what do you think accounts for Kennedy's backward movement? Best, Daniel

Daniel,

I could only speculate. It is rather clear that a bullet can not do this. See the references above. It is just as clear that the jet effect is only so much horse poo. I should explain that one I suppose.

Blood, being a fluid, and brain matter being a semi fluid, have two unique qualities, they do not compress to any significant degree. Having said that, since they do not compress significantly, they can not expand significantly.

In other words, rapid expansion of fluid to cause a jet effect is impossible merely because the fluid itself does not possess the expansion needed to accomplish this.

Gas on the other hand does have the ability to expand rapidly. Think dynamite.

Now, from personal experience I can tell you that a person struck in the head with a bullet can do some unpredictable things. Run, Jump, or, at times, just fall straight down.

My best guess Daniel is a muscular reaction.

This seems to be indicated in many ways, but this to me seems the most likely scenario.

Mike

[Jim Phelps]

Since some folks like burning up bandwidth that have some lacking expertise, so this is for the others that know a little science.

Some fun reading on bullet dynamics. The key word is "dynamics", not "statics". Persons that understand science know the distinction. One has wave theory and propagation of pressure waves involved and the other doesn't. Simple physics that most high school kids know.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8Gq-rVVIbA4C&pg=PT652&lpg=PT652&dq=bullet+vaporization+fluids&source=bl&ots=sWQhD0Jhnd&sig=-wMxb_bNsHg1XSJspkWLG0mYplY&hl=en&ei=OizoTejXNsju0gGGieCjAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

They also know that dynamics makes gases, aerosols, and etc. nearly instantaneously. So, were are not even playing with fluids, but a lot of gas generation.

Everyone knows "High Vel" bullets in air can't be analysed by Pascal's Law, as it is only good for low speed and static systems. At issue is the mass reaction times don't have the time to make pressures equal anywhere. Wave pressures dominate the system theory.

"High Velocity" bullets cause pressure waves in air, and there is no such thing as equal pressure distributions because of the wave nature of the interactions of the fluid, gaseous, and aerosol system involved in a head shot. That wave pressure effect makes the crack or sonic boom in the air. Pascal doesn't apply.

There are pressure waves inside the head and these bounce off the skull to make complex nodes of very high and lower pressures. And there is no such thing as Pascals Law being applicable toward systems that exceed the speed of sound in the medium, due to the pressure wave effects. The highest instantanous pressures are generally along the pathway of the bullet, and the closer to the pathway center, the higher the pressure. There are lots of velocity effects due to mass reactions.

Anyone suggesting the use of Pascal's Law simply doesn't account for the wave effects causing a huge differences in pressure all around the skull internally. Pascal only works for slow moving systems where wave system effects are not in high domination for the effects.

Plus, Pascal isn't even used to do the mass energy calculations to find the velocity of the head after the bullet's energy is absorbed by the head tissues. So, I don't have a clue as to why anyone would bring up Pascal for a Dymanic System in the first place.

I can only conclude they don't know what science to apply and when it applies.

I wonder what the next nonsense will be.

http://extras.journalnow.com/lostempire/tob5b.htm

http://tobaccodocuments.org/profiles/colby_frank_g.html

Edited June 6, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Jim Phelps]

In the very first part of this listing I put a very helpful URL on these dynamic ballistics effects, this one:

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/how_a_high-speed.html

=====

Citation:

"In the concept of a gunshot wound held by most individuals, the bullet goes through the person like a drill bit through wood, 'drilling' a neat hole through structures it passes through. However, this concept is erroneous. As a bullet moves through the body, it imparts kinetic energy to the surrounding tissue, flinging it away form the bullet’s path in a radial manner (direction) and producing a temporary cavity considerably larger than the diameter of the bullet. This temporary cavity, which has a lifetime of 5 to 10 msec from initial rapid growth until collapse, undergoes a series of gradually smaller pulsations and contractions before it finally disappears, leaving the permanent wound

=====

Note that positive and negative pressures happen due to the complex wave nature of the kinetic enegy loss along the pathway. Pascal is totally useless, as can be seen by the wave nature effects causing both positive and negative pressures within the skull.

=======

Citation:

"The picture is radically different in the case of a high-velocity missile. As the bullet enters the body, there is a "tail splash," or the backward hurling of injured tissue. The bullet passes through the target, creating a large temporary cavity whose maximum diameter may be up to 30 times the diameter of the original bullet. The maximum diameter of the cavity occurs at the point at which the maximum rate of loss of kinetic energy occurs. This cavity will undulate for 5 to 10 msec before coming to rest as a permanent track. In high-velocity centerfire rifles, the expanding walls of the temporary cavity are capable of doing severe damage. Local pressures on the order of 100 to 200 atm may develop. This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, nerves, or organs that are a considerable distance from the path of the bullet. Fractures can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet. Positive and negative pressures alternate in the wound, with resultant sucking of foreign material and bacteria into the wound from both entrance and exit.

=========

Citation:

"High-velocity missile wounds of the head are especially destructive because of formation of a temporary cavity within the cranial cavity. the brain is enclosed by the skull, a closed rigid structure that can relieve pressure only by "bursting." Thus, high-velocity missile wounds of the head tend to produce bursting injuries. That these bursting injuries are the result of temporary cavity formation can be demonstrated by shooting through empty skulls. A high-velocity bullet fired through an empty skull produces small entrance and exit holes with no fractures. The same missile fired through a skull containing brain causes extensive fracturing and bursting injuries.

======

I think we might need a little more intelligent and informed science, especially when all the clues and hard sciences were on the very front of this thread.

[Greg Burnham]

FWIW:

JFK Supernova

Although my original correspondence with Robert had nothing to do with what he subsequently believed he discovered, it's somewhat interesting. Do I agree with his conclusion? Not necessarily. Do I understand how he reached that conclusion? Not really. Still, among all of the peripheral noise contained therein, he does make some interesting observations.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Greg Burnham

[Jim Phelps]

I think if anyone really read Pascal's Law, this is what they'd read:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/445445/Pascals-principle

Citation:

Pascal’s principle, also called Pascal’s Law, in fluid (gas or liquid) mechanics, statement that in a fluid at rest in a closed container a pressure change in one part is transmitted without loss to every portion of the fluid and to the walls of the container. The principle was first enunciated by the French scientist Blaise Pascal.

=======

It clearly states that the Pascal Principle applies to liquid or gases, collective termed fluid.

AND that the fluid medium has to be at rest.

Which specically excludes even talking about Pascal's Principle for bullet dynamic effects.

[Jim Phelps]

Ahhhh ahahah. Pascal's Law is a gas equation usually dedicated to hot air.

No, it is not.

=====

Oh, Yes it does apply to hot air. Anything that exhibits ideal gas properties, even steam.

It only has to be near static and not flowing at high velocity.

So, is this Hogan's Law, as yours appears to not respect the definition, thus reality!

[Jim Phelps]

More Pascal's Gas Equation it appears.

You really are a Marine.

The subject was and always has been there the Bob Harris Bulge video of the Zapruder Film. Bob nailed the second bullet effects.

Pascal Law revolves around pressure in fluid Jim.

Bob failed to prove this issue as miserably as you have failed to show my calculations wrong.

You Jim, have proven to be a wind bag, but there is hope, I ask yet again for you to show that I am incorrect.

=============

So Simple---Pascal applies to ideal gases, and only fluids at rest, not moving fluoids, not fluids that have depth. The pressure at the bottom of a liquid column or lake is much greater than at the top.

I do think you've established your considerable knowledge of hot air. And you have no competence in the application of Pascal's Principle.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Jim Phelps