Bob Harris and the Battle of The Bulge

[Jim Phelps]

Bob Harris writes:

"So JFK was killed to stop him from banning flouride, which is part of an insidious, secret plot to make the American people docile and stupid?"

========

Fluoridation was certainly a part of the complex situation, but not the sole reason. The biggest problem in the industrial world and even coal burning is fluoride releases, which first promted fluoridation to mask that pervasive problem in a higher national background by using the water system to make the chronic fluoride exposure related illness patterns pervasive.

One has to remember always that Fluoride and Sugar are a partnership. Sugar promotes bacterial growth on the teeth that then makes an acid that slowly makes holes in the teeth or cavities. In all countries where sugar is not a staple, cavities are not a problem. The Cuban sugar industry made the cavity problems in the US. Fluoride partnered with the Jewish money Cuban Sugar industry to prop up the market because fluoride in the water kills the bacteria growth in the sugar plaques. So, the fluoride issue covered up the Manhattan Project toxic release problems, and about 50 industries with severe fluoride release and risk problems, like the oil refining business. Cavities don't happen in areas that don't have sugar forced into the food supply, and it is an addiction issue once started as sugan modulates the brain serotonin levels.

There are a lot of cover ups and even the tobacco issues are one huge addiction and cancer risk issue based upon exploitation. It is every bit as bad as the fluoride health effects cover up:

http://extras.journalnow.com/lostempire/tob5b.htm

http://tobaccodocuments.org/profiles/colby_frank_g.html

I don't think there is one singular issue that caused the JFK assassination, else we'd be back to lone nut issues. JFK's assassination is the result of a year long build up that formed a large conspiracy with many elements from the NAZIs, with NASA and Fluoride issues, to Israel's hate of the NAZIs coming back to hant them in Egypt and JFK making the special as part of the space cooperative with Russia. JCS Lyman Lemnitzer and Curtis LeMay hated JFK as much as Oak Ridge/DISC, Dallas. Lemitzer was Pro-Israel and right in the middle of many problems before and after JFK.

Just like JFK went after nuclear testing over Sr-90 in teeth, he would also have to notice that Sr-90 is potentiated by fluoride and fluoridation. Fluoridation was an issue in the Boston papers. Fluoride release is a huge health issue for both the aluminum and uranium issue of national security and one that they could not admit due to the public outrage that would follow. JFK had been studing the Nuclear Weapons issues, especially as Oak Ridge was involved in the kill Castro with Cancer issues that involved LHO, JVB, Oschner, radiation techniques, et al. Everyone suspected that JFK's working with the Soviets spoiled that plan, as he tipped it off to them. So that had all the nucler gang wanting JFK killed, which was helped with LeMay and Lemnitzer. And the nuke complex DISC was in the middle of it via Hoover/LBJ, Oak Ridge, et al.

JFK was killed because he was going after several things at once, with no safety net. If he did things right he'd have gone after Lemnitzer and LeMay for treason against the People over the Northwoods plan. JFK should never have allowed Northwoods to remain classified. Lyman Lemnitzer was big Dulles buddy from the times of NAZI Paperclip scientists pulled out of Germany. Right in the middle of the JFK Isreal issue is West German NAZI rocket scientists helping Egypt build rockets and perhaps nuke advice. Then JFK is boosting NASA NAZI into world prominence and using that to attempt peace and mutual space effort to avoid a cold war in space. Right at this time, JCS Lemnizer is Pro-Israel and JFK tossed him over to Europe in place of going after the real problem of proposing killing US citizens over their despiration to get into Cuba and fake out the Soviets.

JFK has no safety net for his grand plan to take down LBJ, because LBJ and Hoover teamed up against him. JFK was hard line after the Israelis not to build nuke bombs, as it would affect the NASA mutual cooperation in space and making peace, if the Russians saw a US Ally putting nukes in the Russian back door like the Jupiter Missles in Turkey that set all that escallation off with Cuba. JFK was having to tip toe around that Russian sensitivity to untie the knot. Not extending the cold war into space was a huge effort that JFK wanted to avoid, but after he gets shot the US goes and makes this huge lenticular space plane as a nuke platform in space. After JFK gets shot the Israels pull a Northwoods on the USS Liberty using LBJ, to attempt the get the US to attack Egypt. It was an Israeli plan to get the US to go after the West German NAZI missle issues, or get them back for allowing it.

LeMay wanted to kick the Soviets with a nuclear war while they were very behind in nuclear weapons production because they were spending to much on space and rockets. Oak Ridge was running wide open on nuclear weapons production and it would take more than a decade for Russia to make parity with the US weapons levels. This due to DDE backing the JCS visions for lots of nukes, both for SAC and LeMay wanted to jump start a nuke war while Russians were behind. JCS wanted into Cuba and use that to go bomb the crap out of Russia in a decisive take down. JFK didn't like that highly aggessive plan, and opted for peace at every turn the CIA and JCS forced upon him. Plus, JFK was taking to the Russians more than his own CIA and JCS, and the Russians and he were devoping a trust that the Mil / Ind Network did not want for their war plan build up. CIA and JCS called JFK's buddy with the Communists as Treason to counter their treason via Northwoods.

It is pretty clear that JFK is going after LeMay over the old Roswell issues with the NAZI scientists and a crashed UFO issue near White Sands. On Nov. 12, 1963 JFK was going for Soviet collaboration in space and wanted NASA to give up the UFO secrets that would come to hit LeMay right in the face. Plus, the CIA was having a heart attack at having to tell "Lancer" the whole story. LeMay was going down with LBJ, and what do we find at the JFK autopsy but LeMay choping his fat Cigar watching the autopsy and having the military control the whole thing and limit all that information to a bare minimum of information releases to keep things confused for 60 years.

The spark that ignited the JFK hit started in Oak Ridge with weapons production cuts, Cuba, and Civil Rights riot in Clinton, and the Israel issues sealed the deal. Enter DISC and PERMENDEX funding for the hit, Mafia (Rubenstein, Lanski, Roselli), and high level corruption and faked up WC collaborators, along with Mockingbird, was the ultimate cover up. Oak Ridge has a lot of Pro-Israel interest from Hyman Rickover and Alvin Weinberg, to the many ALSOS scientists run out of Europe, before the US took on the second flight of the NAZIs with Paperclip.

And part of the plan to keep the public so very dumb as to not notice all these higher factors, via use the NAZI technique of fluoridation on the entire population. Since Israel had issues with the NAZI's helping Egypt with rockets and that JFK NASA NAZI issues was a problem, why not dish out some NAZI techniques on the US to help make the population of the US fall into line with what they wanted as the "Crooks" in office came to power as JFK was offed. And Nixon was a "Crook" because he was involved in the whole mess for starting the Cuba operations. NIxon, the CIA and LBJ crook moved in after LBJ to try and hold down the Crooks fort. In Oak Ridge, the term "Crook" was used to mean those in the national security group that sided with those that wanted JFK killed. How else can one explain a country that allows such corruption and criminal alliances to exist in their very government that haa turned into one of usury and abuse of the US Citizens. So, fluoride is indeed involved in the US's loss of liberty and freedoms as it was taken over by Crooks. But, there were many Crooks that sought to kill JFK and mutually collaborate in coving it up. And the American public remains unbelievably dumb, when all of them should not be tolerating any of this. Certainly, neither the Soviets, not the NAZIs, nor the Mil/Ind complex is going to awaken the American Sleeping Giant by telling them about fluoride toxic effects toward controlling populations, as it would not be in there collective interest. Yet, for Freedom to reign, the giant must be awakened.

1962 Wright-Patterson--LeMay nukes in space land

http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent/?file=PMsaucer

JFK killed project Orion:

http://www.nasa.gov/offices/oce/appel/ask-academy/issues/volume3/AA_3-1_F_past.html

Liberty--Northwoods

http://www.spingola.com/Dead_Sailors.htm

Lemnitzer

http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/ftr-578-darkness-at-sunrise/

Egyptian NAZIs:

http://www.lekket.com/data/articles/003-001-008_000.pdf

Nixon knew he had to pay back Israel for JFK:

http://www.torah.org/features/firstperson/Nixon-Kissinger.html

Mockingbird:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/mockingbird2.htm

=========

JFK's issues still permeate society today, as the Civil Rights issues were even carried forth by LBJ, and the Soviet USA cooperation in space is working and no nuke weapons in space. Everyone declaired hands off Cuba, and the Soviet Union didn't have to get incincerated by LeMay over the issues of NAZIs in Egypt. But there is still some left over issues from JFK that need lots of attention. Still need to boot the Fed Res and make a gold standard currency that feeds back to the people, still need to stop fluorides that rob people of their liberty, and really need to reveal all the issues of the JFK murder by Crooks in high US office.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Daniel Gallup]

As one might notice there is a rather large effort to Debunk the Zapruder Film and just about all the others as rigged, tampered, and remade. Good list is now there to review and comment, and look at their various technical flaws. I am perfectly happy they believe all that, as it means they have no evidence of anything as a result. Every bit has been Debunked in their world of analysis. I suppose they can't even claim there is an assassination, so much has been Debunked. One of the DeBunker Folks even links the NASA Moon Landing type information as being all faked, which I seriously question.

One of the first issues to note is they don't seem to consider the issue of the bulge tells that two shots hit JFK's head, one from the rear and a short second later a shot to the temple. This is what Mr. Harris's detail provides us. The first shot leaves a small hole on the back of the skull and pops off a flap at the right temple area. The second shot to the temple entrance area pops off the top of the skull and some scalp and this is when the material hits the people to the rear of the limo. They seem to be stuck on one shot to the head.

Lots of their "proofs" are based upon people's memories and the last time I looked at what people remember of situaltions is that you can take ten people and ask them to recount what they saw and get ten different recollections, some of them extremely different than the others. People's memories, observation abilities, are subjective and have many faults. But they exploit this effect. Not very good science. Even Police Officers have to be trained how to accurately observe and report with reasonable accuracy.

There are lots of issues with their reconstructions. There is a lot of claiming they are the experts and have all these credentials. But do the work yourself and look at the finer issues and things don't always work as claimed.

And with all that---is there one place they talk about the Bulge at the back of JFK head that Mr. Harris brings to light so well. That second head shot effect that hits his right temple and blows back the scalp and the skull at the cow-lick area? Look for yourselves.

That one little bulge impact issue is the essential essence in the Zapruder Film, the missing piece that only came along with better video edit and higher film resolutions.

Can anyone imagine an Assassintion Research area on "Facebook", what a joke. Facebook is a gossip thing for kids. It is like Tweeting, a little comment list for kids. No archives, stuff disappears. Limited space for a sentence or two. That appears Mr. Fetzers kind of hang out and what he calls reseach area.

I don't think anyone can put forth that Facebook is an Assassination Reseach area, without a giggle.

I have a problem with the Harris presentation. If the large amount of brain, blood and bone shot backward is from the second shot, why don't we see a backwards spray in the extant Z-film? Harris take great pains to show the defect in Z-337, but no corresponding ejecta towards the rear. Did I miss his explanation? Confused in Pasadena, Daniel

Please forgive my responding to my own post, but no one responded to my question, so I shall ask it again. Harris is very careful to state that no debris is exiting the back of the head in the initial head shot at 313. This is what one sees on the extant film, and verified, he says, by careful analysis. So then he allows there is a second shot to the head which is then the source of all the backwards/left blood and brains that would account for the mess on the trunk, Hargis etc. The trouble is, I see no such ejecta when Harris says the second shot occurred. Why is that? Someone please please please enlighten, and thanks in advance. Daniel

[Jim Phelps]

I think some of the basics may be that the first shot significantly damaged the JFK skull and allowed for some pressure vent pathways. So, the high pressure effects of the first shot formed like 200 psi like explosive looking releases out of his right temple area.

The issue of the second shot could not create the same large pressurization effects that explosively blew out materials with a 200 psi driving force.

So, the second bullet rips into the temple area and the pressure doesn't get up to 200 psi, perhaps much lower as it vents, but as the pressure wave goes it pops up the 7 inch long defect and tosses out the lighter color grey matter and no so much blood.

Lots of the materials bone chuck and brain mush gets caught under the scalp due to the bulge effect. But the light color grey masses don't show up too well on the trunk lid.

There are some differences that the second shot could not get the high impulse pressure and it was also likely a different bullet type.

There are some inconsistencies, and I also wondered why the rear bits are not as visible. Yet, the head dynamic reaction effects tell the basic story. I think it was the peak pressure effects in the skull could not form once it was opened up with the first head shot.

[Mike Williams]

As one might notice there is a rather large effort to Debunk the Zapruder Film and just about all the others as rigged, tampered, and remade. Good list is now there to review and comment, and look at their various technical flaws. I am perfectly happy they believe all that, as it means they have no evidence of anything as a result. Every bit has been Debunked in their world of analysis. I suppose they can't even claim there is an assassination, so much has been Debunked. One of the DeBunker Folks even links the NASA Moon Landing type information as being all faked, which I seriously question.

One of the first issues to note is they don't seem to consider the issue of the bulge tells that two shots hit JFK's head, one from the rear and a short second later a shot to the temple. This is what Mr. Harris's detail provides us. The first shot leaves a small hole on the back of the skull and pops off a flap at the right temple area. The second shot to the temple entrance area pops off the top of the skull and some scalp and this is when the material hits the people to the rear of the limo. They seem to be stuck on one shot to the head.

Lots of their "proofs" are based upon people's memories and the last time I looked at what people remember of situaltions is that you can take ten people and ask them to recount what they saw and get ten different recollections, some of them extremely different than the others. People's memories, observation abilities, are subjective and have many faults. But they exploit this effect. Not very good science. Even Police Officers have to be trained how to accurately observe and report with reasonable accuracy.

There are lots of issues with their reconstructions. There is a lot of claiming they are the experts and have all these credentials. But do the work yourself and look at the finer issues and things don't always work as claimed.

And with all that---is there one place they talk about the Bulge at the back of JFK head that Mr. Harris brings to light so well. That second head shot effect that hits his right temple and blows back the scalp and the skull at the cow-lick area? Look for yourselves.

That one little bulge impact issue is the essential essence in the Zapruder Film, the missing piece that only came along with better video edit and higher film resolutions.

Can anyone imagine an Assassintion Research area on "Facebook", what a joke. Facebook is a gossip thing for kids. It is like Tweeting, a little comment list for kids. No archives, stuff disappears. Limited space for a sentence or two. That appears Mr. Fetzers kind of hang out and what he calls reseach area.

I don't think anyone can put forth that Facebook is an Assassination Reseach area, without a giggle.

I have a problem with the Harris presentation. If the large amount of brain, blood and bone shot backward is from the second shot, why don't we see a backwards spray in the extant Z-film? Harris take great pains to show the defect in Z-337, but no corresponding ejecta towards the rear. Did I miss his explanation? Confused in Pasadena, Daniel

Please forgive my responding to my own post, but no one responded to my question, so I shall ask it again. Harris is very careful to state that no debris is exiting the back of the head in the initial head shot at 313. This is what one sees on the extant film, and verified, he says, by careful analysis. So then he allows there is a second shot to the head which is then the source of all the backwards/left blood and brains that would account for the mess on the trunk, Hargis etc. The trouble is, I see no such ejecta when Harris says the second shot occurred. Why is that? Someone please please please enlighten, and thanks in advance. Daniel

Daniel,

The explanation is simple. There was no second head shot.

For one, the energy required to move the head back in the fashion we see, is impossible from a bullet.

In example:

As we can see the impact energy at 90 yards is 1328 ft-lbs  since we are passing through skull we should use the higher end at .3%

So

1328*.003= 3.98 ft-lbs of energy to the target, and a human punch on average is 110 Ft. Lbs.

With the above considered how many Ft-Lbs of energy would a transiting bullet have to strike with in order to transfer 110ft-lbs to the target?

37,000*.003=111Ft.-Lbs.

How would we achieve this?

An 800 grain .50 cal BMG has an energy of 14,895 ft-lbs at the muzzle.

So lets grab 2 of those for a total of 29790 ft-lbs

which leaves us 7210 ft-Lbs.

7.62x51 nato (.308) is 175 grains and 2627 ft.-lbs at the muzzle.

so lets grab 2 of those and we are up to 35,044 ft lbs

We still need another 1956 ft lbs......hmmmm.....

how about the .45 acp in 230 grains as it has a muzzle energy of 352 ft lbs

so lets grab 5 of those

we are now at 36,804 ft lbs.

damn still short......by......196 ft lbs!

so lets go back shopping and get......

1 32 grain .22 cal with 191 ft lbs of energy

  

We are still short by 5 ft lbs, so I suppose we could shoot with a carcano as well which adds another 3.98 ft lbs....

So in order to hit a target with enough transiting shots to equal a human punch we need to hit them with:

2-.50 cals

2-.308cals

5-.45 acp's

1-.22 cal

and a carcano

all at the same time.

really now.........

Once one realizes that this rearward movement can not be attributed to a bullet, then things become much easier to reason.

We do know that there was blood and brain matter forward of the target, so much so that is was on the inside of the windshield, the outside of the windshield, and ALL the way up to the hood ornament of the limo. Furthermore, it had to oppose a 12-15 mph headwind to get there!

Unless one can claim that for a 60 second period on 11/22/63 the laws of physics were suspended, then there is no survivable claim that there was a second frontal head shot.

It really boils down to equal and opposite reactions. A large blood cloud emitted from the front, attributed to a rear entering bullet should, and would be replicated from the rear, if a front entering bullet had exited the back of the head.

Mike

[Mike Williams]

I think some of the basics may be that the first shot significantly damaged the JFK skull and allowed for some pressure vent pathways. So, the high pressure effects of the first shot formed like 200 psi like explosive looking releases out of his right temple area.

The issue of the second shot could not create the same large pressurization effects that explosively blew out materials with a 200 psi driving force.

So, the second bullet rips into the temple area and the pressure doesn't get up to 200 psi, perhaps much lower as it vents, but as the pressure wave goes it pops up the 7 inch long defect and tosses out the lighter color grey matter and no so much blood.

Lots of the materials bone chuck and brain mush gets caught under the scalp due to the bulge effect. But the light color grey masses don't show up too well on the trunk lid.

There are some differences that the second shot could not get the high impulse pressure and it was also likely a different bullet type.

There are some inconsistencies, and I also wondered why the rear bits are not as visible. Yet, the head dynamic reaction effects tell the basic story. I think it was the peak pressure effects in the skull could not form once it was opened up with the first head shot.

Jim,

Almost.

There is no doubt that the pressure inside the head would be more significant with the initial shot. However, much of this energy was consumed in breaking apart the skull, something an alleged second shot would not have to do.

This having been said, a second shot would be less restrained, and should show as much, if not more release of ejecta, because the ejecta at this point is unrestrained by the skull.

Below is an example of unrestrained blood ejecta.

Note that the back spatter in this instance is text book, as is the larger in quantity and velocity forward spatter.

Something additional to consider. Blood is a liquid. Brain mass is rather gelatinous, and considered near liquid as well.

As such they share a unique quality, they do not compress very much at all. If they do not compress, then they do not expand much either (the whole equal and opposite thing at work again) If they do not expand significantly, then their ability to create an "explosion" is very limited.

The common analogy would be water pipes freezing. They do not explode, they simply crack open. Dynamite, with its confined and rapidly expanding gas explodes, simply because the gas has the ability to expand greatly, and rapidly.

So anyone who makes the claim that there is a second head shot is left with 2 choices:

1) To contend the Z film is altered, something no expert has every claimed, or

2) To abandon the second frontal head shot scenario, something I might add that even Cyril Wecht can not support.

I have several ballistics articles on my webpage should you desire the read.

www.jfkballistics.com/articles.html

[Greg Burnham]

So anyone who makes the claim that there is a second head shot is left with 2 choices:

1) To contend the Z film is altered, something no expert has ever claimed...

Several experts have claimed exactly that, Mike. To name just one, for example, there is Dr. Roderick Ryan, who has a Ph.D. from the University of Southern California, majoring in cinema/communications. He is a retired scientist from KODAK, where he worked from 1947 until 1986 in several engineering and executive positions, including regional director of engineering services--motion picture division. His entire career has been devoted to motion picture film technology. He received numerous awards and recognitions during his career including, The Scientific & Engineering Award from the Society of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 1982. He is a Fellow of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and a member of the Committee for Selection of Scientific and Technical Awards, Special Effects, Documentary Films. -- among many other commendations and recognitions. In other words, he is an expert. See Bloody Treason pages 154 -160 (TWYMAN) for more details on Dr. Ryans credentials and his conclusions, one of which is his opinion that the "blobs" had been "painted in". -- Not easy to summarily dismiss coming from one of his expertise, no?

[Jim Phelps]

Hi,

I would say there are many wrong assumptions being made per these analysis, imho. The only way a .3 % energy loss would come anywhere close to happening is if the bullet was armor piercing type, not deformed on impact, and leaves the skull fully intact. That didn't happen. I first year engineering or physics student would make fun of that assumption. I can see you are no expert in statics and dynamics.

First, the rear shot shows the head jump forward with appropriate motion for the energy transferred. The energy transfer is up around 50%, as the bullet deforms on passing into the shull and comes out in shreds at right angles to the incident path. JFK is still somewhat rigid and alive there, so the forward motion is somewhat resisted or damped out.

Second, the second bullet is not the same type bullet and this one is frangable type that dissipates all the energy into the head, so the rear movement will be greater than that for the shot from the rear. Also, JFK is essentially dead at this point and gone limp as a dish rag and the only thing holding him up was his back brace and Jackie. So when the rearward energy transfer hit he just fell on back and to the left into Jackie's lap.

The limp person effect is like shooting a baseball laying on a flat table. The imparted energy makes for a rearward velocity that continues until it encounters resistance. Since JFK is limp at the second shot, the motion is not damped and the rearward velocity of the head allows for his to fall back and to the left side.

I can't agree with you energy transfer factors from the two bullets. You only get that low a value in very special cases, and it is nonsense to apply those values to JFK's ballistics case.

IMHO, wrong assumptions are being made.

Plus, this scalp pooched out area happens well after the first rear of the head shot, and that indicates energy injected into the skull after the first shot.

We even have a Noble Prize winning Physicist that comes to the same conclusion. Recalling Dr. Feinman's analysis.

Sorry, don't buy your math energy transfer assumptions.

I might go with some red tint added on the Z-film, but I'd have to look at it myself to see it. But, too many people saw stuff fly out the rear of JFK's head and that blob on the back formed latently from the first shot's impact. Can't deny such obvious physics. So, don't agree the Z-film has black blobs painted in, but there could well be that happening on the Life Magazine photo. The grey scales appear to do well on Zapruder, but not the Life Magazine photo.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Jim Phelps]

There is one more hypothesis. Two people just used the wrong ballistic models.

Do some more correct test models and you might get to the real issues. I see test models that show very little bullet deformation. Neither JFK head shot fits those type models.

IMHO

[Mike Williams]

I would say there are many wrong assumptions being made per these analysis, imho. The only way a .3 % energy loss would come anywhere close to happening is if the bullet was armor piercing type, not deformed on impact, and leaves the skull fully intact. That didn't happen. I first year engineering or physics student would make fun of that assumption. I can see you are no expert in statics and dynamics.

Then of course rather than offering an "I would say" opinion, you are free to do the work, and show us that I am incorrect. Surely if a 1st year physics student could refute what I have posted, then you should be able to without issue....right?

First, the rear shot shows the head jump forward with appropriate motion for the energy transferred. The energy transfer is up around 50%, as the bullet deforms on passing into the shull and comes out in shreds at right angles to the incident path. JFK is still somewhat rigid and alive there, so the forward motion is somewhat resisted or damped out.

"Up around"? Are you kidding me? The head moves forward less than 3" and while I would agree that this is an appropriate movement for a rear entering bullet, it certainly reflects no where near 50% of the energy. (clearly showing you struggle with the difference between foot/lbs (energy) and foot/lbs (force).

In the table I posted above, we can see that the bullet hits with 1400-1500 ft lbs energy. If 50% of that is transferred we are looking at 700-750 ft.lbs. 7 times greater than a the average human punch. You really think this will move the head forward less than 3 inches?

Second, the second bullet is not the same type bullet and this one is frangable type that dissipates all the energy into the head, so the rear movement will be greater than that for the shot from the rear. Also, JFK is essentially dead at this point and gone limp as a dish rag and the only thing holding him up was his back brace and Jackie. So when the rearward energy transfer hit he just fell on back and to the left into Jackie's lap.

No bullet, in any way shape or form ever transfers ALL the energy. It is an impossibility, and a remark that shows your knowledge of the subject matter is limited Jim.

For one, energy is expended in the form of heat. For another energy is consumed by the very fragmentation of the projectile. Even bullets that stay in the target do not transfer all their energy to the target.

Additionally there is no indication whatsoever of a frangible bullet. This myth was put down years ago.

""Dr. Charles Petty of the HSCA forensic pathology panel

responded to Dr. Wecht's frangible-bullet theory in his testimony

before the committee. [Quoting Petty:] "I happen to be the coauthor of

the only paper that has ever been written about the wounding

capabilities of frangible bullets. .... Such bullets and the breakup

products of [these] bullets are easy to detect in X-rays. There are no

such fragments in the X-ray of the late president's head. There was no

frangible bullet fired. I might also add that frangible bullets are

produced in .22 caliber loads and they are not produced [for] larger

weapons."

[Mike Williams]

The limp person effect is like shooting a baseball laying on a flat table. The imparted energy makes for a rearward velocity that continues until it encounters resistance. Since JFK is limp at the second shot, the motion is not damped and the rearward velocity of the head allows for his to fall back and to the left side.

Well Jim, if your first remarks did not offer grave doubt as to your understanding of physics, these certainly do.

I do not believe I have ever read that the effects of momentum are based upon living or dead objects.

The weight of the target remains the same.

I can't agree with you energy transfer factors from the two bullets. You only get that low a value in very special cases, and it is nonsense to apply those values to JFK's ballistics case.

Of course you could not agree, unless you understood the subject matter!

The opportunity for you to do the calculations and show that I am wrong is upon you. Give it a go.

IMHO, wrong assumptions are being made.

Plus, this scalp pooched out area happens well after the first rear of the head shot, and that indicates energy injected into the skull after the first shot.

We even have a Noble Prize winning Physicist that comes to the same conclusion. Recalling Dr. Feinman's analysis.

Sorry, don't buy your math energy transfer assumptions.

I might go with some red tint added on the Z-film, but I'd have to look at it myself to see it. But, too many people saw stuff fly out the rear of JFK's head and that blob on the back formed latently from the first shot's impact. Can't deny such obvious physics. So, don't agree the Z-film has black blobs painted in, but there could well be that happening on the Life Magazine photo. The grey scales appear to do well on Zapruder, but not the Life Magazine photo.

If you feel wrong assumptions are being made, again, show the work and I will be glad to retract. I would rather be accurate than right any day. You ahve to golden opportunity to prove me wrong.

As far as the claim that the back of the head bulges out after the rear entering bullet....I would think we should see this with a single entry to the back of the head. The real question here, is why do you think this has to be a ramification of a front entering bullet?

Are you at all familiar with Pascals laws of fluid dynamics?

I have not read Feinman's analysis. I would certainly have to do that before offering comment on his analysis, or your interpretation of it.

[Mike Williams]

So anyone who makes the claim that there is a second head shot is left with 2 choices:

1) To contend the Z film is altered, something no expert has ever claimed...

Several experts have claimed exactly that, Mike. To name just one, for example, there is Dr. Roderick Ryan, who has a Ph.D. from the University of Southern California, majoring in cinema/communications. He is a retired scientist from KODAK, where he worked from 1947 until 1986 in several engineering and executive positions, including regional director of engineering services--motion picture division. His entire career has been devoted to motion picture film technology. He received numerous awards and recognitions during his career including, The Scientific & Engineering Award from the Society of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 1982. He is a Fellow of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and a member of the Committee for Selection of Scientific and Technical Awards, Special Effects, Documentary Films. -- among many other commendations and recognitions. In other words, he is an expert. See Bloody Treason pages 154 -160 (TWYMAN) for more details on Dr. Ryans credentials and his conclusions, one of which is his opinion that the "blobs" had been "painted in". -- Not easy to summarily dismiss coming from one of his expertise, no?

Greg,

Hope you have been well!

I would have to read more on this before commenting. Initially I would expect to see such epic news in the New York Times....

I mean from a historical stand point, an expert coming forward to claim the z film is altered would be epic, would you not agree?

[David G. Healy]

So anyone who makes the claim that there is a second head shot is left with 2 choices:

1) To contend the Z film is altered, something no expert has ever claimed...

Several experts have claimed exactly that, Mike. To name just one, for example, there is Dr. Roderick Ryan, who has a Ph.D. from the University of Southern California, majoring in cinema/communications. He is a retired scientist from KODAK, where he worked from 1947 until 1986 in several engineering and executive positions, including regional director of engineering services--motion picture division. His entire career has been devoted to motion picture film technology. He received numerous awards and recognitions during his career including, The Scientific & Engineering Award from the Society of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 1982. He is a Fellow of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and a member of the Committee for Selection of Scientific and Technical Awards, Special Effects, Documentary Films. -- among many other commendations and recognitions. In other words, he is an expert. See Bloody Treason pages 154 -160 (TWYMAN) for more details on Dr. Ryans credentials and his conclusions, one of which is his opinion that the "blobs" had been "painted in". -- Not easy to summarily dismiss coming from one of his expertise, no?

Greg,

Hope you have been well!

I would have to read more on this before commenting. Initially I would expect to see such epic news in the New York Times....

I mean from a historical stand point, an expert coming forward to claim the z film is altered would be epic, would you not agree?

nice dodge Sgt. Mikey.....

[Mike Williams]

So anyone who makes the claim that there is a second head shot is left with 2 choices:

1) To contend the Z film is altered, something no expert has ever claimed...

Several experts have claimed exactly that, Mike. To name just one, for example, there is Dr. Roderick Ryan, who has a Ph.D. from the University of Southern California, majoring in cinema/communications. He is a retired scientist from KODAK, where he worked from 1947 until 1986 in several engineering and executive positions, including regional director of engineering services--motion picture division. His entire career has been devoted to motion picture film technology. He received numerous awards and recognitions during his career including, The Scientific & Engineering Award from the Society of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 1982. He is a Fellow of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and a member of the Committee for Selection of Scientific and Technical Awards, Special Effects, Documentary Films. -- among many other commendations and recognitions. In other words, he is an expert. See Bloody Treason pages 154 -160 (TWYMAN) for more details on Dr. Ryans credentials and his conclusions, one of which is his opinion that the "blobs" had been "painted in". -- Not easy to summarily dismiss coming from one of his expertise, no?

Greg,

Hope you have been well!

I would have to read more on this before commenting. Initially I would expect to see such epic news in the New York Times....

I mean from a historical stand point, an expert coming forward to claim the z film is altered would be epic, would you not agree?

nice dodge Sgt. Mikey.....

Why would that be a dodge David?

Unlike yourself, I would prefer to be informed before rendering an opinion. I know you do not partake of this particular habit, I myself do.

[Jim Phelps]

Well, lets just do a little practical example. We'll let you do the math, just to see if you can. So far, all I see from your side is hand waving trying to pretend science.

In place of a head, lets use a nice turkey with about the same mass as a human head, and fill it with a medium like silicon RTV and let it setup. It isn't a perfect model for a head, as the internal skull pressure containment factors won't happen from a turkey body, but the energy and velocity transfer effects will happen. Lets lay it on a smooth oiled stainless steel table and shoot it with a hollow point hunting bullet so the bullet will deliver maximum kinetic energy exchange and not exit the turkey body.

The simple physics equations tell there must be near instantaneous conservation of energy as the bullet impacts and delivers its forward kinetic energy to the turkey body on the table. So, one drags out the nice simple equation of 1/2 M V^2 for the kinetic energy going in from the bullet and then one can calculate the instantaneous velocity of the bullet with turkey body in combination moving in the same direction. In free space the turkey body will be seen to move along across the table with a velocity that is only damped by friction with the table.

So, on the oiled surface table the hollow point bullet will impact the turkey body and it will them move down range and fall off the table due to low frictional resistance. Resistance plays a big role in how quickly the velocity transfer would be reduced by friction. With no friction the turkey body would go on for miles down range, if it were to happen in space. It is the principle of all mass reaction systems in space, and this is a mass reaction system. Works on land too, but you have to be inclusive of frictional effects. But for an oiled table it would go far enough to slide off the table.

In the case for JFK the velocity damping is carried out by his being alive and muscles tensed for the first shot, and dead for the second shot. JFK's head moves forward several inches due to the 1st from the rear shot. For the 2nd shot his is essentially dead, and the second shot will start off a similar velocity toward the rear and will be aided by gravity and perhaps some limo acclerations. But that same 1st shot type motion will be more accentuated for the 2nd and continue due to gravity. Stand a broom handle up and shoot it with anything and it will fall over, most of the 2nd shot effects is just him falling over to the side. JFK's limp body offered little resistance to damping for the second shot. So, the movement from the 2nd bullet's initial velocity transfer took a lot of travel to retard the velocity.

That you don't know this most simple factors of physics tells me that you perhaps need to go find a local university that has a physics department and sign up for classes or pay one of them to tutor you for these type energy and velocity transfer effects, and include that all important frictional factor effect that is essential toward how far the initial velocity transfer effect travels. Friction effects are everything for this mass reaction type analysis, and you have admitting being totally vapid of those essential elements for the analysis.

So far, you have done a lot of nonsense hand waving and the technical analysis is so poor that your vapidity on velocity transfer at impact and velocity damping effects are nonexistant. That simply isn't science, nor can I conclude you have any expertise per your being lacking of those essential methods of simple physics.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[John Dolva]

in a sense, apart for some very rapid movement, the head doesn't really travel back at all except relatively. Its forward movement is drastically slowed but never ceases a forward movement (sans the possible alluded to)