Bob Harris and the Battle of The Bulge

[Mike Williams]

Well, lets just do a little practical example. We'll let you do the math, just to see if you can. So far, all I see from your side is hand waving trying to pretend science.

In place of a head, lets use a nice turkey with about the same mass as a human head, and fill it with a medium like silicon RTV and let it setup. It isn't a perfect model for a head, as the internal skull pressure containment factors won't happen from a turkey body, but the energy and velocity transfer effects will happen. Lets lay it on a smooth oiled stainless steel table and shoot it with a hollow point hunting bullet so the bullet will deliver maximum kinetic energy exchange and not exit the turkey body.

Once again showing your lack of knowledge. You talk a fair game to those who know no better, but when you refer to energy and velocity transfer, your giving yourself away. Energy is consumed Mr. Phelp, momentum is transferred, and velocity, or the change in this velocity is the result.

The simple physics equations tell there must be near instantaneous conservation of energy as the bullet impacts and delivers its forward kinetic energy to the turkey body on the table. So, one drags out the nice simple equation of 1/2 M V^2 for the kinetic energy going in from the bullet and then one can calculate the instantaneous velocity of the bullet with turkey body in combination moving in the same direction. In free space the turkey body will be seen to move along across the table with a velocity that is only damped by friction with the table.

Are you kidding me? Come on Mr. Phelps. Really now? I find it amusing you seem to be using a principle of conservation of momentum, and referring to it as energy. You really need to rely more on education than wikipedia....

So, on the oiled surface table the hollow point bullet will impact the turkey body and it will them move down range and fall off the table due to low frictional resistance. Resistance plays a big role in how quickly the velocity transfer would be reduced by friction. With no friction the turkey body would go on for miles down range, if it were to happen in space. It is the principle of all mass reaction systems in space, and this is a mass reaction system. Works on land too, but you have to be inclusive of frictional effects. But for an oiled table it would go far enough to slide off the table.

In the case for JFK the velocity damping is carried out by his being alive and muscles tensed for the first shot, and dead for the second shot. JFK's head moves forward several inches due to the 1st from the rear shot. For the 2nd shot his is essentially dead, and the second shot will start off a similar velocity toward the rear and will be aided by gravity and perhaps some limo acclerations. But that same 1st shot type motion will be more accentuated for the 2nd and continue due to gravity. Stand a broom handle up and shoot it with anything and it will fall over, most of the 2nd shot effects is just him falling over to the side. JFK's limp body offered little resistance to damping for the second shot. So, the movement from the 2nd bullet's initial velocity transfer took a lot of travel to retard the velocity.

That you don't know this most simple factors of physics tells me that you perhaps need to go find a local university that has a physics department and sign up for classes or pay one of them to tutor you for these type energy and velocity transfer effects, and include that all important frictional factor effect that is essential toward how far the initial velocity transfer effect travels. Friction effects are everything for this mass reaction type analysis, and you have admitting being totally vapid of those essential elements for the analysis.

So far, you have done a lot of nonsense hand waving and the technical analysis is so poor that your vapidity on velocity transfer at impact and velocity damping effects are nonexistant. That simply isn't science, nor can I conclude you have any expertise per your being lacking of those essential methods of simple physics.

Then step up to the plate, and use the real world numbers, and show the calculations that prove me wrong, just as I asked in my initial post.

I believe you have seen what I claim, now let see your work to refute it.

Thus far the only hand waving and Bsing has come from you.

SO should I expect a reply soon that even resembles the idea that you know what you are talking about?

[Jim Phelps]

The logic is very simple-----and most person see right past your smoke screen. Bob Harris video is very telling, and there are folks that don't want that well established.

Your analysis isn't realistic, it is very difficult to write equations on text boards.

But for those that do want to understand the math, pick up some engineering books on Dymanics or Physics Books on Kinetic Energy and you'll find all the proof one needs. And take note that a Nobel Prize winning Physicist addressed the problem and said two bullets. Dr. Feinman was correct. Or those that know some College professors, show them the Bob Harris video and ask them to do the 1/2 M V**2 calculations.

I'll let you go on for a while, let you get real foolish looking. Who knows, I might toss the anaysis over to Bob Harris, and let him do the speading it around.

Perhaps we'll find something like Ms. Moorman speaks and tells she was standing on the grass when she took her famous JFK photo, and all that noise about she was standing on the road as shown by poor analysis with LASERs and pseudo science hand waving made them look so dumb. Ms. Moorman now ends up proving Zapruder Valid.

We'll let you heat this up some and get a lot of people making some claims.

Make some more noise---get out on the limb with your claims.

Lets let you get way out on your limb. Keep going.

I think we'll have the board chucking here soon.

http://extras.journalnow.com/lostempire/tob5b.htm

http://tobaccodocuments.org/profiles/colby_frank_g.html

Edited June 6, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[David G. Healy]

Well, lets just do a little practical example. We'll let you do the math, just to see if you can. So far, all I see from your side is hand waving trying to pretend science.

In place of a head, lets use a nice turkey with about the same mass as a human head, and fill it with a medium like silicon RTV and let it setup. It isn't a perfect model for a head, as the internal skull pressure containment factors won't happen from a turkey body, but the energy and velocity transfer effects will happen. Lets lay it on a smooth oiled stainless steel table and shoot it with a hollow point hunting bullet so the bullet will deliver maximum kinetic energy exchange and not exit the turkey body.

Once again showing your lack of knowledge. You talk a fair game to those who know no better, but when you refer to energy and velocity transfer, your giving yourself away. Energy is consumed Mr. Phelp, momentum is transferred, and velocity, or the change in this velocity is the result.

The simple physics equations tell there must be near instantaneous conservation of energy as the bullet impacts and delivers its forward kinetic energy to the turkey body on the table. So, one drags out the nice simple equation of 1/2 M V^2 for the kinetic energy going in from the bullet and then one can calculate the instantaneous velocity of the bullet with turkey body in combination moving in the same direction. In free space the turkey body will be seen to move along across the table with a velocity that is only damped by friction with the table.

Are you kidding me? Come on Mr. Phelps. Really now? I find it amusing you seem to be using a principle of conservation of momentum, and referring to it as energy. You really need to rely more on education than wikipedia....

So, on the oiled surface table the hollow point bullet will impact the turkey body and it will them move down range and fall off the table due to low frictional resistance. Resistance plays a big role in how quickly the velocity transfer would be reduced by friction. With no friction the turkey body would go on for miles down range, if it were to happen in space. It is the principle of all mass reaction systems in space, and this is a mass reaction system. Works on land too, but you have to be inclusive of frictional effects. But for an oiled table it would go far enough to slide off the table.

In the case for JFK the velocity damping is carried out by his being alive and muscles tensed for the first shot, and dead for the second shot. JFK's head moves forward several inches due to the 1st from the rear shot. For the 2nd shot his is essentially dead, and the second shot will start off a similar velocity toward the rear and will be aided by gravity and perhaps some limo acclerations. But that same 1st shot type motion will be more accentuated for the 2nd and continue due to gravity. Stand a broom handle up and shoot it with anything and it will fall over, most of the 2nd shot effects is just him falling over to the side. JFK's limp body offered little resistance to damping for the second shot. So, the movement from the 2nd bullet's initial velocity transfer took a lot of travel to retard the velocity.

That you don't know this most simple factors of physics tells me that you perhaps need to go find a local university that has a physics department and sign up for classes or pay one of them to tutor you for these type energy and velocity transfer effects, and include that all important frictional factor effect that is essential toward how far the initial velocity transfer effect travels. Friction effects are everything for this mass reaction type analysis, and you have admitting being totally vapid of those essential elements for the analysis.

So far, you have done a lot of nonsense hand waving and the technical analysis is so poor that your vapidity on velocity transfer at impact and velocity damping effects are nonexistant. That simply isn't science, nor can I conclude you have any expertise per your being lacking of those essential methods of simple physics.

Then step up to the plate, and use the real world numbers, and show the calculations that prove me wrong, just as I asked in my initial post.

I believe you have seen what I claim, now let see your work to refute it.

Thus far the only hand waving and Bsing has come from you.

SO should I expect a reply soon that even resembles the idea that you know what you are talking about?

you're dancing Sgt. Mikey....

[Jim Phelps]

I guess there must be a story per this "Sgt. Mickey" term. I might know why.

Humm--last time I heard this "Dancing" term was about some Artsy guys in New Jesey crowing over 911, they got kicked out of the country shortly afterwards. I wonder where they got sent?

Those guys had a soap box.

It always helps to have a little noise on a topic. Keeps it number one on the list.

Then the strategy is keep the examples and proofs rather simple and down to Earth, as many shy away from math and physics. These JFK folks are just regular folks and that is the audience here.

So, got a Harris video that shows the two component damage and motion.

Got a Noble Physicist that agrees with the video by Harris.

Got some practical examples on head motion expected from similar energy exchange events. Video backs it up.

Got some rather simple science involved on mass and velocity.

So, lets keep this item number one on the list. I'll trickle out some more common sense examples from time to time.

http://extras.journalnow.com/lostempire/tob5b.htm

http://tobaccodocuments.org/profiles/colby_frank_g.html

Edited June 6, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Greg Burnham]

So anyone who makes the claim that there is a second head shot is left with 2 choices:

1) To contend the Z film is altered, something no expert has ever claimed...

Several experts have claimed exactly that, Mike. To name just one, for example, there is Dr. Roderick Ryan, who has a Ph.D. from the University of Southern California, majoring in cinema/communications. He is a retired scientist from KODAK, where he worked from 1947 until 1986 in several engineering and executive positions, including regional director of engineering services--motion picture division. His entire career has been devoted to motion picture film technology. He received numerous awards and recognitions during his career including, The Scientific & Engineering Award from the Society of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 1982. He is a Fellow of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and a member of the Committee for Selection of Scientific and Technical Awards, Special Effects, Documentary Films. -- among many other commendations and recognitions. In other words, he is an expert. See Bloody Treason pages 154 -160 (TWYMAN) for more details on Dr. Ryans credentials and his conclusions, one of which is his opinion that the "blobs" had been "painted in". -- Not easy to summarily dismiss coming from one of his expertise, no?

Greg,

Hope you have been well!

I would have to read more on this before commenting. Initially I would expect to see such epic news in the New York Times....

I mean from a historical stand point, an expert coming forward to claim the z film is altered would be epic, would you not agree?

I've been pretty well, Mike. Thanks for asking. Other than a case of whiplash from a huge wave in Hawaii last month--I'm fine. Now, back to the topic. I really don't expect the MSM to print things like that, do you? As an example, I remember sending C-SPAN a copy of an LBJ taped phone conversation with HOOVER in which HOOVER tells LBJ that [paraphrased] "If Connally wouldn't have been in the way, the president would have been hit by all three shots!" Well, now think about that one for a minute, Mike. How could Connally, who was seated IN FRONT of JFK, ever have been in the way of a shot intended for JFK if the shooter was located behind JFK? Yet, you can go to C-SPAN and find that telephone conversation for yourself...but, will it EVER appear in the New York Times? Not a chance.

[Mike Williams]

The logic is very simple-----and most person see right past your smoke screen. Bob Harris video is very telling, and there are folks that don't want that well established.

Your analysis isn't realistic, it is very difficult to write equations on text boards.

The refute my analysis, and don't give me any crap about difficulty posting equations. I do it all the time. Thats a cop out Jim, and it is as telling as your obvious mistakes regarding energy and force, not to mention your complete lack of understanding the physics presented.

But for those that do want to understand the math, pick up some engineering books on Dymanics or Physics Books on Kinetic Energy and you'll find all the proof one needs. And take note that a Nobel Prize winning Physicist addressed the problem and said two bullets. Dr. Feinman was correct. Or those that know some College professors, show them the Bob Harris video and ask them to do the 1/2 M V**2 calculations.

I'll let you go on for a while, let you get real foolish looking. Who knows, I might toss the anaysis over to Bob Harris, and let him do the speading it around.

Well its only been posted some 30 times on JFK boards. I am sure Harris has seen it. Unfortunately Harris lacks the same ability you do. You both appear woefully inadequate to address the subject.

Im still waiting for you to post the work of Feinman. I smell BS. Whats taking you so long Jim?

Perhaps we'll find something like Ms. Moorman speaks and tells she was standing on the grass when she took her famous JFK photo, and all that noise about she was standing on the road as shown by poor analysis with LASERs and pseudo science hand waving made them look so dumb. Ms. Moorman now ends up proving Zapruder Valid.

Or Perhaps you'll see Mooreman's recent interview where she confirms she was standing on the grass?

We'll let you heat this up some and get a lot of people making some claims.

Make some more noise---get out on the limb with your claims.

Lets let you get way out on your limb. Keep going.

I think we'll have the board chucking here soon.

Ok so so far what we have from you is a bunch of "I thinks", a few exhibits that you don't comprehend energy, momentum and clearly don't know the difference between ft lbs energy and ft lbs force. We have a quick and transparent cop out that you cant post equations on a board, and then just a bunch of useless chin music.

So are you going to put up, and prove me wrong as I have ask for two days now?

How long must we wait?

[Jim Phelps]

Citations from Hoover. eheheh

That is about as bad as M's teflon don bullet analysis.

I can tell we are off to see the Wizzard.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Mike Williams]

So anyone who makes the claim that there is a second head shot is left with 2 choices:

1) To contend the Z film is altered, something no expert has ever claimed...

Several experts have claimed exactly that, Mike. To name just one, for example, there is Dr. Roderick Ryan, who has a Ph.D. from the University of Southern California, majoring in cinema/communications. He is a retired scientist from KODAK, where he worked from 1947 until 1986 in several engineering and executive positions, including regional director of engineering services--motion picture division. His entire career has been devoted to motion picture film technology. He received numerous awards and recognitions during his career including, The Scientific & Engineering Award from the Society of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 1982. He is a Fellow of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and a member of the Committee for Selection of Scientific and Technical Awards, Special Effects, Documentary Films. -- among many other commendations and recognitions. In other words, he is an expert. See Bloody Treason pages 154 -160 (TWYMAN) for more details on Dr. Ryans credentials and his conclusions, one of which is his opinion that the "blobs" had been "painted in". -- Not easy to summarily dismiss coming from one of his expertise, no?

Greg,

Hope you have been well!

I would have to read more on this before commenting. Initially I would expect to see such epic news in the New York Times....

I mean from a historical stand point, an expert coming forward to claim the z film is altered would be epic, would you not agree?

I've been pretty well, Mike. Thanks for asking. Other than a case of whiplash from a huge wave in Hawaii last month--I'm fine. Now, back to the topic. I really don't expect the MSM to print things like that, do you? As an example, I remember sending C-SPAN a copy of an LBJ taped phone conversation with HOOVER in which HOOVER tells LBJ that [paraphrased] "If Connally wouldn't have been in the way, the president would have been hit by all three shots!" Well, now think about that one for a minute, Mike. How could Connally, who was seated IN FRONT of JFK, ever have been in the way of a shot intended for JFK if the shooter was located behind JFK? Yet, you can go to C-SPAN and find that telephone conversation for yourself...but, will it EVER appear in the New York Times? Not a chance.

Greg,

Hope you recover well!

I have no doubt that if the mass media heard about this they would print it. They slaughter the political stem daily, why hold back now?

As for the LBJ tape, I have not heard it, and do not know the context to take it in.

[Mike Williams]

I guess there must be a story per this "Sgt. Mickey" term. I might know why.

Humm--last time I heard this "Dancing" term was about some Artsy guys in New Jesey crowing over 911, they got kicked out of the country shortly afterwards. I wonder where they got sent?

Those guys had a soap box.

It always helps to have a little noise on a topic. Keeps it number one on the list.

Then the strategy is keep the examples and proofs rather simple and down to Earth, as many shy away from math and physics. These JFK folks are just regular folks and that is the audience here.

So, got a Harris video that shows the two component damage and motion.

Got a Noble Physicist that agrees with the video by Harris.

Got some practical examples on head motion expected from similar energy exchange events. Video backs it up.

Got some rather simple science involved on mass and velocity.

So, lets keep this item number one on the list. I'll trickle out some more common sense examples from time to time.

Are you going to post the work of this physicist?

Are you ever going to address my query about Pascals law?

Do you even know what that is Jim?

Do you have any idea just why pascals law applies to the topic at hand?

Oh someone is dancing alright, and its pretty clear its Jim here.

Stop dancing Jim and get to work.

[Greg Burnham]

So anyone who makes the claim that there is a second head shot is left with 2 choices:

1) To contend the Z film is altered, something no expert has ever claimed...

Several experts have claimed exactly that, Mike. To name just one, for example, there is Dr. Roderick Ryan, who has a Ph.D. from the University of Southern California, majoring in cinema/communications. He is a retired scientist from KODAK, where he worked from 1947 until 1986 in several engineering and executive positions, including regional director of engineering services--motion picture division. His entire career has been devoted to motion picture film technology. He received numerous awards and recognitions during his career including, The Scientific & Engineering Award from the Society of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 1982. He is a Fellow of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and a member of the Committee for Selection of Scientific and Technical Awards, Special Effects, Documentary Films. -- among many other commendations and recognitions. In other words, he is an expert. See Bloody Treason pages 154 -160 (TWYMAN) for more details on Dr. Ryans credentials and his conclusions, one of which is his opinion that the "blobs" had been "painted in". -- Not easy to summarily dismiss coming from one of his expertise, no?

Greg,

Hope you have been well!

I would have to read more on this before commenting. Initially I would expect to see such epic news in the New York Times....

I mean from a historical stand point, an expert coming forward to claim the z film is altered would be epic, would you not agree?

I've been pretty well, Mike. Thanks for asking. Other than a case of whiplash from a huge wave in Hawaii last month--I'm fine. Now, back to the topic. I really don't expect the MSM to print things like that, do you? As an example, I remember sending C-SPAN a copy of an LBJ taped phone conversation with HOOVER in which HOOVER tells LBJ that [paraphrased] "If Connally wouldn't have been in the way, the president would have been hit by all three shots!" Well, now think about that one for a minute, Mike. How could Connally, who was seated IN FRONT of JFK, ever have been in the way of a shot intended for JFK if the shooter was located behind JFK? Yet, you can go to C-SPAN and find that telephone conversation for yourself...but, will it EVER appear in the New York Times? Not a chance.

Greg,

Hope you recover well!

I have no doubt that if the mass media heard about this they would print it. They slaughter the political stem daily, why hold back now?

As for the LBJ tape, I have not heard it, and do not know the context to take it in.

Thanks, Mike. Here's the memorandum Hoover dictated to his secretary at the completion of the phone call to memorialize it:

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION WASHINGTON, D.C.

1:39 p.m. November 29, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR MR. TOLSON MR. BELMONT MR. MOHR MR. CONRAD MR. DE LOACH MR. EVANS MR. ROSEN MR. SULLIVAN

The President called and asked if I am familiar with the proposed group they are trying to get to study my report - two from the House, two from the Senate, two from the courts, and a couple of outsiders. I replied that I had not heard of that but had seen reports from the Senate Investigating Committee.

The President stated he wanted to get by just with my file and my report. I told him I thought it would be very bad to have a rash of investigations. He then indicated the only way to stop it is to appoint a high-level committee to evaluate my report and tell the House and Senate not to go ahead with the investigation. I stated that would be a three-ring circus.

The President then asked what I think about Allen Dulles, and I replied that he is a good man. He then asked about John McCloy, and I stated I am not as enthusiastic about McCloy, that he is a good man but I am not so certain as to the matter of publicity he might want. The President then mentioned General (Lauris) Norstad, and I said he is a good man. He said in the House he might try (Hale) Boggs and (Gerald R.) Ford and in the Senate (Richard B.) Russell and (John Sherman) Cooper. I asked him about Cooper and he indicated Cooper of Kentucky whom he described as a judicial man, stating he would not want (Jacob K.) Javits. I agreed on this point. He then reiterated Ford of Michigan, and I indicated I know of him but do not know him and had never seen him except on television the other day and that he handled himself well on television. I indicated that I do know Boggs.

The President then mentioned that (Walter) Jenkins had told him that I have designated Mr. DeLoach to work with them as he had on the Hill. He indicated they appreciated that and just wanted to tell me they consider Mr. DeLoach as high class as I do, and that they salute me for knowing how to pick good men.

I advised the President that we hope to have the investigation wrapped up today but probably won't have it before the first of the week as an angle in Mexico is giving trouble - the matter of Oswald's getting $6500 from the Cuban Embassy and coming back to this country with it; that we are not able to prove that fact; that we have information he was there on September 18 and we are able to prove he was in New Orleans on that date; that a story came in changing the date to September 28 and he was in Mexico on the 28th. I related that the police have again arrested Duran, a member of the Cuban Embassy; that they will hold her two or three days; will confront her with the original informant; and will also try a lie detector test on her.

The President then inquired if I pay any attention to the lie detector test. I answered that I would not pay 100% attention to them; that it was only a psychological asset in investigation; that I would not want to be a part of sending a man to the chair on a lie detector test. I explained that we have used them in bank investigations and a person will confess before the lie detector test is finished, more or less fearful it will show him guilty. I said the lie detector test has this psychological advantage. I further stated that it is a misnomer to call it a lie detector since the evaluation of the chart made by the machine is made by a human being and any human being is apt to make the wrong interpretation.

I stated, if Oswald had lived and had take a lie detector test, this with the evidence we have would have added that much strength to the case; that these is no question he is the man.

I also told him that Rubenstein down there has offered to take a lie detector test but his lawyer must be consulted first; that I doubt the lawyer will allow him to do so; that he has a West Coast lawyer somewhat like the Edward Bennett Williams type and almost as much of a shyster.

The President asked if we have any relationship between the two (Oswald and Rubenstein) as yet. I replied that at the present time we have not; that there was a story that the fellow had been in Rubenstein's nightclub but it has not been confirmed. I told the President that Rubenstein is a very seedy character, had a bad record - street brawls, fights, etc.; that in Dallas, if a fellow came into his nightclub and could not pay his bill completely, Rubenstein would beat him up and throw him out; that he did not drink or smoke; that he was an egomaniac; that he likes to be in the limelight; knew all of the police officers in the white light district; let them come in and get food and liquor, etc.; and that is how I think he got into police headquarters. I said if they ever made any move, the pictures did not show it even when they saw him approach and he got right up to Oswald and pressed the pistol against Oswald's stomach; that neither officer on either side made any effort to grab Rubenstein - not until after the pistol was fired. I said, secondly, the chief of police admits he moved Oswald in the morning as a convenience and at the request of motion picture people who wanted daylight. I said insofar as tying Rubenstein and Oswald together, we have not yet done so; that there are a number of stories which tied Oswald to the Civil Liberties Union in New York in which he applied for membership and to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee which is pro-Castro, directed by communists, and financed to some extent by the Castro Government.

The President asked how many shots were fired, and I told him three. He then asked if any were fired at him. I said no, that three shots were fired at the President and we have them. I stated that our ballistic experts were able to prove the shots were fired by this gun; that the President was hit by the first and third bullets and the second hit the Governor; that there were three shots; that one complete bullet rolled out of the President's head; that it tore a large part of the President's head off; that in trying to massage his heart on the way into the hospital they loosened the bullet which fell on the stretcher and we have that.

He then asked were they aimed at the President. I replied they were aimed at the President, no question about that.

I further advised him that we have also tested the fact you could fire those three shots in three seconds. I explained that there is a story out that there must have been more than one man to fire several shots but we have proven it could be done by one man.

The President then asked how it happened that Connally was hit. I explained that Connally turned to the President when the first shot was fired and in that turning he got hit. The President then asked, if Connally had not been in his seat, would the President have been hit by the second shot. I said yes.

I related that on the fifth floor of the building where we found the gun and the wrapping paper we found three empty shells that had been fired and one that had not been fired. that he had four but didn't fire the fourth; then threw the gun aside; went down the steps; was seen by a police officer; the manager told the officer that Oswald was all right, worked there; they let him go; he got on a bus; went to his home and got a jacket; then came back downtown, walking; the police officer who was killed stopped him, not knowing who he was; and he fired and killed the police officer.

The President asked if we can prove that and I answered yes.

I further related that Oswald then walked another two blocks; went to the theater; the woman selling tickets was so suspicious - said he was carrying a gun when he went into the theater - that she notified the police; the police and our man went in and located Oswald. I told him they had quite a struggle with Oswald but that he was subdued and shown out and taken to police headquarters.

I advised the President that apparently Oswald had come down the steps from the fifth floor; that apparently the elevator was not used.

The President then indicated our conclusions are: (1) he is the one who did it; (2) after the President was hit, Governor Connally was hit; (3) the President would have been hit three times except for the fact that Governor Connally turned after the first shot and was hit by the second; (4) whether he was connected with the Cuban operation with money we are trying to nail down. I told him that is what we are trying to nail down; that we have copies of the correspondence; that none of the letters dealt with any indication of violence or assassination; that they were dealing with a visa to go back to Russia.

I advised the President that his wife had been very hostile, would not cooperate and speaks only Russian; that yesterday she said, if we could give assurance she would be allowed to remain in the country, she would cooperate; and that I told our agents to give that assurance and sent a Russian-speaking agent to Dallas last night to interview her. I said I do not know whether or not she has any information but we would learn what we could. The President asked how Oswald had access to the fifth floor of the building. I replied that he had access to all floors. The President asked where was his office and I stated he did not have any particular place; that he was not situated in any particular place; that he was just a general packer of requisitions that came in for books from Dallas schools; that he would have had proper access to the fifth and sixth floors whereas usually the employees were down on lower floors. The President then inquired if anybody saw him on the fifth floor, and I stated he was seen by one of the workmen before the assassination.

The President then asked if we got a picture taken of him shooting the gun and I said no. He asked what was the picture sold for $25,000, and I advised him this was a picture of the parade showing Mrs. Kennedy crawling out of the back seat; that there was no Secret Service Agent on the back of the car; that in the past they have added steps on the back of the car and usually had an agent on either side standing on the bumper; that I did not know why this was not done - that the President may have requested it; that the bubble top was not up but I understand the bubble top was not worth anything because it was made entirely of plastic; that I had learned much to my surprise that the Secret Service does not have any armored cars.

The President asked if I have a bulletproof car and I told him I most certainly have. I told him we use it here for my own use and, whenever we have any raids, we make use of the bulletproof car on them. I explained that it is a limousine which has been armorplated and that it looks exactly like any other car. I stated I think the President ought to have a bulletproof car; that from all I understand the Secret Service has had two cars with metal plates underneath the car to take care of hand grenades or bombs thrown out on the street. I said this is European; that there have been several such attempts on DeGaulle's life; but they do not do that in this country; that all assassinations have been with guns; and for that reason I think very definitely the President ought to always ride in a bulletproof car; that it certainly would prevent anything like this ever happening again; but that I do not mean a sniper could not snipe him from a window if he were exposed.

The President asked if I meant on his ranch he should be in a bulletproof car. I said I would think so; that the little car we rode around in when I was at the ranch should be bulletproofed; that it ought to be done very quietly. I told him we have four bulletproof cars in the Bureau: one on the West Coast, one in New York and two here. I said this could be done quietly without publicity and without pictures taken of it if handled properly and I think he should have one on his ranch.

The President then asked if I think all the entrances should be guarded. I replied by all means, that he had almost to be in the capacity of a so-called prisoner because without that security anything could be done. I told him lots of phone calls had been received over the last four or five days about threats on his life; that I talked to the Attorney General about the funeral procession from the White House to the Cathedral; that I was opposed to it. The President remarked that the Secret Service told them not to but the family wanted to do it.

I stated that was what the Attorney General told me but I was very much opposed to it. I further related that I saw the procession from the Capitol to the White House on Pennsylvania and, while they had police standing on the curbs, when the parade came, the police turned around and looked at the parade.

The President then stated he is going to take every precaution he can; that he wants to talk to me; and asked if I would put down my thoughts. He stated I was more than head of the FBI - I was his brother and his personal friend; that he knew I did not want anything to happen to his family; that he has more confidence in me than anybody in town; that he would not embroil me in a jurisdictional dispute; but that he did want to have my thoughts on the matter to advocate as his own opinion.

I stated I would be glad to do this for him and that I would do anything I can. The President expressed his appreciation.

Very truly yours,

[signed J. E. H.]

John Edgar Hoover Director

Edited June 2, 2011 by Greg Burnham

[Jim Phelps]

Ahhhh ahahah. Pascal's Law is a gas equation usually dedicated to hot air.

I suspect it is your governing principle. Just not mine.

That one seriously made me chuckle, ROFLOL

You are about to convince me that you really are a "Marine".

I think, since you have declaired commedy hour, it is better that I let some others have some fun with you.

http://extras.journalnow.com/lostempire/tob5b.htm

http://tobaccodocuments.org/profiles/colby_frank_g.html

Watching is fun, and I don't have to do much.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Greg Burnham]

Jim,

I apologize if it appears that my posts above are not entirely "on-topic" but my intent was to demonstrate that one of the assumptions Mike was relying upon for his argument, namely "no expert has ever claimed the Zapruder film was altered" -- was inaccurate. Secondly, I was demonstrating that just because the MSM hasn't reported evidence does not make it any less real or significant.

[Mike Williams]

Greg,

Thanks for posting that. Is this in the record somewhere? I do not believe I have read this before.

[Jim Phelps]

Hi Greg,

I can certainly agree on the Main Stream Media being rigged, Operation Mockingbird is still alive and well on a lot of issues.

Beyond that, have fun with M.

[Greg Burnham]

Greg,

Thanks for posting that. Is this in the record somewhere? I do not believe I have read this before.

Hi Mike. Yes, this is the text of an Official Justice Department Document. There is literally no doubt as to its authenticity. This is the memorandum of the TAPED telephonic conversation between LBJ and Hoover. It received NO news coverage whatsoever. When the LBJ tapes were finally declassified and made available on the internet--it was as if this was insignificant.

Amazing.