Bringing JFK assassination truth to the mainstream/ fingering the "Tools" when you see them

[Len Colby]

Perot did despise Bush, and it was primarily because of the POW-MIA issue, which Perot had put his heart and soul into. I'm sure he was disillusioned with the whitewash congressional "investigation" led by John Kerry and John McCain, which was being conducted during this same time period.

Ross Perot may be just about the only billionaire I've ever liked.

You can’t really take those loony theories seriously which seem more based on anti-Asian bias and paranoia of Communism rather than evidence. Just why would the Vietnamese have secretly maintained large numbers of US POWs? Negotiating there release would have been a bargaining chip at the peace talk and there would have been no reason to hold them after 1975.

[Len Colby]

I'm afraid #4 is wrong. I always believed that was him until someone posted this picture of the man from behind and to the right. He's got too much hair. I attached this file.

Kathy C

The guy look more like Johnny Cash!

[Guest Robert Morrow]

I have a friend, Shirley Kinder, active in Texas politics in the Dallas, TX, area. She is age 72 today and was age 42 in 1992 when she went to work as a volunteer for the Ross Perot campaign. I have spoken to here several times including last night.

Shirley says two things. One is that she was working at the Adolphus Hotel at that time and ran into a Newsweek reporter who bragged to her in summer, 1992, that "I'm going to come back in two weeks and break a big one on Ross Perot."

The Newsweek reporter did not know she was a volunteer for the Perot campaign. He told her this before Perot dropped out and I don't think the story every got printed.

Secondly, and very importantly, Shirley Kinder helped to run the Ross Perot volunteer phone bank. This phone bank kept running even AFTER Ross Perot pulled out of the race on 7/16/92. The volunteers kept calling because they were so fired up for Perot that they wanted to talk him back in the race; so they kept working for him.

Shirley Kinder says that in the phone bank room one night was one of Perot's security men and this is one he told her:

"Ross Perot has had a hit put out on his life. I cannot tell you who put the hit out. But he [Perot] should be afraid." And as this man said the last sentence he emphasized every word of it. Or perhaps this man said "The person who who put out the hit is someone he [Perot] should be afraid of." Again, the man would have emphasized every word in that last sentence.

This security man did not explicitly say WHO had put out a hit on Ross Perot, but he emphasized every word of the sentence saying that Ross Perot SHOULD be afraid.

I am being speculative here, but I think the security man was referring to George Herbert Walker Bush, especially given what we know about the Chip Tatum revelations.

Shirley Kinder has told me this story multiple times. Like me, she is a supporter of Ron Paul and that is how I met her over the internet.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Robert Morrow

[Guest Robert Morrow]

The purported Bush letter to Chip Tatum does not *explicitly* say kill Ross Perot

Oh really?

It says he can use any means necessary

He can exceed existing regulations.

If loss of life occurs, he shall be protected from prosecution.

Please Bob.

The idea that a president would put this down on WH letterhead memorandum, and sign it, this is so silly that only a sucker like you would fall for it. Its so stupid that it reminds me of the fake Angleton memo about the Majestic Project. Its not the way the real world works. And if you spent more time studying that real world you would not fall for crap like this. And pollute this forum with it.

But you know what PT Barnum said, right?

PS Good one Zach. The guy has Perot's voice nailed.

I actually agree with you on this point. It seems suspicious that Bush would put out a memorandum of this type. That is why it has taken me awhile to believe this story. However, Tatum's accounts of CIA drug running is confirmatory of everything else we have learned in the 1980's.

And he was initially charged with "TREASON" - that is a fact and I am sure we can look it up in a court case somewhere. In my opinion there is no doubt that Chip Tatum was an intelligence operative. The question is how much of his story to believe. I personally believe practically all of it.

I know someone, Jon Gentry of Dallas, who has personally interviewed Tatum multiple times. See above.

In 2008 at the Iowa Straw poll, while campaigning for Ron Paul, I ran into one of Ted Gunderson's close friends. I mentioned Chip Tatum and the man said that back then Chip Tatum and Ted Gunderson (then still alive) talked on a regular basis. He also said that Tatum had gone underground and was still alive and that the story about him being found dead, washed up on a Honduran beach, was bogus. Apparently, just a cover story to help Tatum blend back in as he went underground.

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

How in the name of GOD is posting ONLY on this HIGHLY SPECIALIST SITE a means of bringing JFK truth "to the mainstream" ? This is just where we are supposed to talk only to those who already know lots about the assassination. Posting here is useful but it does absolutely NOTHING to bring more new readers to the truths of the assassinations.

But alas, it seems like actually trying to SPREAD truth to new, younger readers is beneath the dignity of our sophisticates here on Education Forum! A tree will continue to fall in the forest while the NYT manufacture of lying consent and McDissent continues to go unchallenged.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Nathaniel Heidenheimer

[Len Colby]

I have a friend, Shirley Kinder, active in Texas politics in the Dallas, TX, area. She is age 72 today and was age 42 in 1992 when she went to work as a volunteer for the Ross Perot campaign. I have spoken to here several times including last night.

Shirley says two things. One is that she was working at the Adolphus Hotel at that time and ran into a Newsweek reporter who bragged to her in summer, 1992, that "I'm going to come back in two weeks and break a big one on Ross Perot."

The Newsweek reporter did not know she was a volunteer for the Perot campaign. He told her this before Perot dropped out and I don't think the story every got printed.

Secondly, and very importantly, Shirley Kinder helped to run the Ross Perot volunteer phone bank. This phone bank kept running even AFTER Ross Perot pulled out of the race on 7/16/92. The volunteers kept calling because they were so fired up for Perot that they wanted to talk him back in the race; so they kept working for him.

Shirley Kinder says that in the phone bank room one night was one of Perot's security men and this is one he told her:

"Ross Perot has had a hit put out on his life. I cannot tell you who put the hit out. But he [Perot] should be afraid." And as this man said the last sentence he emphasized every word of it. Or perhaps this man said "The person who who put out the hit is someone he [Perot] should be afraid of." Again, the man would have emphasized every word in that last sentence.

This security man did not explicitly say WHO had put out a hit on Ross Perot, but he emphasized every word of the sentence saying that Ross Perot SHOULD be afraid.

I am being speculative here, but I think the security man was referring to George Herbert Walker Bush, especially given what we know about the Chip Tatum revelations.

Shirley Kinder has told me this story multiple times. Like me, she is a supporter of Ron Paul and that is how I met her over the internet.

So she aged 30 years over the course of a 20-year period? What did fall through a crack in the space time continuum? Based on her “MeetUp” photo she is a lot closer to 42 now that to 72 or even 62. So did misrepresent her age to Morrow or did she deceptively post a decades old photo?

http://www.meetup.com/tlcdallas/members/4484668/

She also comes across as a raving loon (from the link above)

“FDR took our gold Bad. Lincoln tried to buck the Fed. Reserve by printing $ (good)...look what happened to him and Kennedy, for example; they both attempted to buck the Fed, and both were assassignated.......what a coincidence....Not!”

Except that FDR didn’t take anyone's gold let alone hers because ‘best’ case scenario she was born several years after the Gold Reserve Act which limited the amount of gold most private citizens could own. The Fed of course did not come into existence till decades after Lincoln’s presidency and there was no central bank at the time. I guess she’s referring to issuance of Greenbacks 1861 -2 but it’s a stretch to imagine he was assassinated in 1865 over this especially since he was reelected in 1864 and they placed in circulation until 1971. As for JFK he actually decided to replace Silver Certificates, issued by the Treasury with Federal Reserve Notes, issued by the Illuminati, eeer Fed.

All that aside her stories proves nothing especially since her trustworthiness is questionable. So a reporter thought he had the goods on Perot is that a conspiracy. Didn’t Rather try to get Bush? Didn’t the press go after Cain, Hart and others? The story from the security man is hearsay and there is no indication as to what the source was or who was supposedly responsible. Perot was already in 3rd when he quit, after he was last week’s news being tossed after it stint in the bottom of a bird cage.

Tatum’s story by any reason standard completely lacks credibility.

Morrow seems drawn to the stuff like a moth to flame or a fly to…

[Michael Hogan]

I'm afraid #4 is wrong. I always believed that was him until someone posted this picture of the man from behind and to the right. He's got too much hair. I attached this file.

Kathy C

The guy look more like Johnny Cash!

Of course it is. In October 1965, Johnny Cash was arrested in El Paso, Texas for attempting to smuggle amphetamines across the Mexican border in his guitar case. These were the mug shots.

[Len Colby]

I'm afraid #4 is wrong. I always believed that was him until someone posted this picture of the man from behind and to the right. He's got too much hair. I attached this file.

Kathy C

The guy look more like Johnny Cash!

Of course it is. In October 1965, Johnny Cash was arrested in El Paso, Texas for attempting to smuggle amphetamines across the Mexican border in his guitar case. These were the mug shots.

Yes of course that is Cash in the mug shots, I was referring to the person in Kathleen’s photo. Because of the way she attached it it didn’t appear in my post. So does anyone know for sure where ‘the Man in Black’ was during the assassination?

Edited March 30, 2012 by Len Colby

[Guest Robert Morrow]

I used to think that was a photo of GHW Bush; I just don't know now. Ditto the picture of the man in the doorway of TSBD that looks like Bush. I do think GHW Bush was involved in the JFK assassination.

Along with Col. Fletcher Prouty and Gen. Victor Krulak, I DO think this is a photo of CIA and Air Force General Edward Lansdale: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aMylIdfMyKI/S9OyB8CqQPI/AAAAAAAAACw/UNi-msJwybQ/s1600/landsdale-1.jpg

[Mark Wengler]

I have a friend, Shirley Kinder, active in Texas politics in the Dallas, TX, area. She is age 72 today and was age 42 in 1992 when she went to work as a volunteer for the Ross Perot campaign. I have spoken to here several times including last night.

Shirley says two things. One is that she was working at the Adolphus Hotel at that time and ran into a Newsweek reporter who bragged to her in summer, 1992, that "I'm going to come back in two weeks and break a big one on Ross Perot."

The Newsweek reporter did not know she was a volunteer for the Perot campaign. He told her this before Perot dropped out and I don't think the story every got printed.

Secondly, and very importantly, Shirley Kinder helped to run the Ross Perot volunteer phone bank. This phone bank kept running even AFTER Ross Perot pulled out of the race on 7/16/92. The volunteers kept calling because they were so fired up for Perot that they wanted to talk him back in the race; so they kept working for him.

Shirley Kinder says that in the phone bank room one night was one of Perot's security men and this is one he told her:

"Ross Perot has had a hit put out on his life. I cannot tell you who put the hit out. But he [Perot] should be afraid." And as this man said the last sentence he emphasized every word of it. Or perhaps this man said "The person who who put out the hit is someone he [Perot] should be afraid of." Again, the man would have emphasized every word in that last sentence.

This security man did not explicitly say WHO had put out a hit on Ross Perot, but he emphasized every word of the sentence saying that Ross Perot SHOULD be afraid.

I am being speculative here, but I think the security man was referring to George Herbert Walker Bush, especially given what we know about the Chip Tatum revelations.

Shirley Kinder has told me this story multiple times. Like me, she is a supporter of Ron Paul and that is how I met her over the internet.

So she aged 30 years over the course of a 20-year period? What did fall through a crack in the space time continuum? Based on her “MeetUp” photo she is a lot closer to 42 now that to 72 or even 62. So did misrepresent her age to Morrow or did she deceptively post a decades old photo?

http://www.meetup.com/tlcdallas/members/4484668/

She also comes across as a raving loon (from the link above)

“FDR took our gold Bad. Lincoln tried to buck the Fed. Reserve by printing $ (good)...look what happened to him and Kennedy, for example; they both attempted to buck the Fed, and both were assassignated.......what a coincidence....Not!”

Except that FDR didn’t take anyone's gold let alone hers because ‘best’ case scenario she was born several years after the Gold Reserve Act which limited the amount of gold most private citizens could own. The Fed of course did not come into existence till decades after Lincoln’s presidency and there was no central bank at the time. I guess she’s referring to issuance of Greenbacks 1861 -2 but it’s a stretch to imagine he was assassinated in 1865 over this especially since he was reelected in 1864 and they placed in circulation until 1971. As for JFK he actually decided to replace Silver Certificates, issued by the Treasury with Federal Reserve Notes, issued by the Illuminati, eeer Fed.

All that aside her stories proves nothing especially since her trustworthiness is questionable. So a reporter thought he had the goods on Perot is that a conspiracy. Didn’t Rather try to get Bush? Didn’t the press go after Cain, Hart and others? The story from the security man is hearsay and there is no indication as to what the source was or who was supposedly responsible. Perot was already in 3rd when he quit, after he was last week’s news being tossed after it stint in the bottom of a bird cage.

Tatum’s story by any reason standard completely lacks credibility.

Morrow seems drawn to the stuff like a moth to flame or a fly to…

Len people can look younger than their age look at Raquel Welch she is 72 does she look like a person 72 years old?

[Pat Speer]

I have a friend, Shirley Kinder, active in Texas politics in the Dallas, TX, area. She is age 72 today and was age 42 in 1992 when she went to work as a volunteer for the Ross Perot campaign. I have spoken to here several times including last night.

Shirley says two things. One is that she was working at the Adolphus Hotel at that time and ran into a Newsweek reporter who bragged to her in summer, 1992, that "I'm going to come back in two weeks and break a big one on Ross Perot."

The Newsweek reporter did not know she was a volunteer for the Perot campaign. He told her this before Perot dropped out and I don't think the story every got printed.

Secondly, and very importantly, Shirley Kinder helped to run the Ross Perot volunteer phone bank. This phone bank kept running even AFTER Ross Perot pulled out of the race on 7/16/92. The volunteers kept calling because they were so fired up for Perot that they wanted to talk him back in the race; so they kept working for him.

Shirley Kinder says that in the phone bank room one night was one of Perot's security men and this is one he told her:

"Ross Perot has had a hit put out on his life. I cannot tell you who put the hit out. But he [Perot] should be afraid." And as this man said the last sentence he emphasized every word of it. Or perhaps this man said "The person who who put out the hit is someone he [Perot] should be afraid of." Again, the man would have emphasized every word in that last sentence.

This security man did not explicitly say WHO had put out a hit on Ross Perot, but he emphasized every word of the sentence saying that Ross Perot SHOULD be afraid.

I am being speculative here, but I think the security man was referring to George Herbert Walker Bush, especially given what we know about the Chip Tatum revelations.

Shirley Kinder has told me this story multiple times. Like me, she is a supporter of Ron Paul and that is how I met her over the internet.

So she aged 30 years over the course of a 20-year period? What did fall through a crack in the space time continuum? Based on her “MeetUp” photo she is a lot closer to 42 now that to 72 or even 62. So did misrepresent her age to Morrow or did she deceptively post a decades old photo?

http://www.meetup.com/tlcdallas/members/4484668/

She also comes across as a raving loon (from the link above)

“FDR took our gold Bad. Lincoln tried to buck the Fed. Reserve by printing $ (good)...look what happened to him and Kennedy, for example; they both attempted to buck the Fed, and both were assassignated.......what a coincidence....Not!”

Except that FDR didn’t take anyone's gold let alone hers because ‘best’ case scenario she was born several years after the Gold Reserve Act which limited the amount of gold most private citizens could own. The Fed of course did not come into existence till decades after Lincoln’s presidency and there was no central bank at the time. I guess she’s referring to issuance of Greenbacks 1861 -2 but it’s a stretch to imagine he was assassinated in 1865 over this especially since he was reelected in 1864 and they placed in circulation until 1971. As for JFK he actually decided to replace Silver Certificates, issued by the Treasury with Federal Reserve Notes, issued by the Illuminati, eeer Fed.

All that aside her stories proves nothing especially since her trustworthiness is questionable. So a reporter thought he had the goods on Perot is that a conspiracy. Didn’t Rather try to get Bush? Didn’t the press go after Cain, Hart and others? The story from the security man is hearsay and there is no indication as to what the source was or who was supposedly responsible. Perot was already in 3rd when he quit, after he was last week’s news being tossed after it stint in the bottom of a bird cage.

Tatum’s story by any reason standard completely lacks credibility.

Morrow seems drawn to the stuff like a moth to flame or a fly to…

Len people can look younger than their age look at Raquel Welch she is 72 does she look like a person 72 years old?

The point was that Robert said she was 42 in 92, and was now 72. That doesn't add up.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Guest Robert Morrow]

I have a friend, Shirley Kinder, active in Texas politics in the Dallas, TX, area. She is age 72 today and was age 42 in 1992 when she went to work as a volunteer for the Ross Perot campaign. I have spoken to here several times including last night.

Shirley says two things. One is that she was working at the Adolphus Hotel at that time and ran into a Newsweek reporter who bragged to her in summer, 1992, that "I'm going to come back in two weeks and break a big one on Ross Perot."

The Newsweek reporter did not know she was a volunteer for the Perot campaign. He told her this before Perot dropped out and I don't think the story every got printed.

Secondly, and very importantly, Shirley Kinder helped to run the Ross Perot volunteer phone bank. This phone bank kept running even AFTER Ross Perot pulled out of the race on 7/16/92. The volunteers kept calling because they were so fired up for Perot that they wanted to talk him back in the race; so they kept working for him.

Shirley Kinder says that in the phone bank room one night was one of Perot's security men and this is one he told her:

"Ross Perot has had a hit put out on his life. I cannot tell you who put the hit out. But he [Perot] should be afraid." And as this man said the last sentence he emphasized every word of it. Or perhaps this man said "The person who who put out the hit is someone he [Perot] should be afraid of." Again, the man would have emphasized every word in that last sentence.

This security man did not explicitly say WHO had put out a hit on Ross Perot, but he emphasized every word of the sentence saying that Ross Perot SHOULD be afraid.

I am being speculative here, but I think the security man was referring to George Herbert Walker Bush, especially given what we know about the Chip Tatum revelations.

Shirley Kinder has told me this story multiple times. Like me, she is a supporter of Ron Paul and that is how I met her over the internet.

So she aged 30 years over the course of a 20-year period? What did fall through a crack in the space time continuum? Based on her “MeetUp” photo she is a lot closer to 42 now that to 72 or even 62. So did misrepresent her age to Morrow or did she deceptively post a decades old photo?

http://www.meetup.com/tlcdallas/members/4484668/

She also comes across as a raving loon (from the link above)

“FDR took our gold Bad. Lincoln tried to buck the Fed. Reserve by printing $ (good)...look what happened to him and Kennedy, for example; they both attempted to buck the Fed, and both were assassignated.......what a coincidence....Not!”

Except that FDR didn’t take anyone's gold let alone hers because ‘best’ case scenario she was born several years after the Gold Reserve Act which limited the amount of gold most private citizens could own. The Fed of course did not come into existence till decades after Lincoln’s presidency and there was no central bank at the time. I guess she’s referring to issuance of Greenbacks 1861 -2 but it’s a stretch to imagine he was assassinated in 1865 over this especially since he was reelected in 1864 and they placed in circulation until 1971. As for JFK he actually decided to replace Silver Certificates, issued by the Treasury with Federal Reserve Notes, issued by the Illuminati, eeer Fed.

All that aside her stories proves nothing especially since her trustworthiness is questionable. So a reporter thought he had the goods on Perot is that a conspiracy. Didn’t Rather try to get Bush? Didn’t the press go after Cain, Hart and others? The story from the security man is hearsay and there is no indication as to what the source was or who was supposedly responsible. Perot was already in 3rd when he quit, after he was last week’s news being tossed after it stint in the bottom of a bird cage.

Tatum’s story by any reason standard completely lacks credibility.

Morrow seems drawn to the stuff like a moth to flame or a fly to…

Len people can look younger than their age look at Raquel Welch she is 72 does she look like a person 72 years old?

The point was that Robert said she was 42 in 92, and was now 72. That doesn't add up.

Shirley Kinder is a gorgeous 72. That photo was taken when she was age 71.

Can you imagine what she looked like 30 years ago at age 42 while volunteering for Ross Perot? She said that she looked about age 30 at that time. Shirley Kinder also worked as a concierage for the Penthouse at the Adolphus Hotel and that time; that is how she meet the Newsweek reporter who bragged in that in 2 weeks he was going to come back and drop a big story on Ross Perot.

I carefully went over with Shirley a few days ago what that member of Ross Perot's security told her in 1992 *after* Perot had dropped out.

"Ross Perot has had a hit put out on his life. I cannot tell you who put the hit out. But he [Perot] should be afraid." as he emphasized every word in the last sentence.

Or his last sentence was perhaps this "Someone who he should be afraid of" with the security man emphasizing *every* word of that sentence.

Shirley Kinder was one of the leaders of the Perot volunteer phone bank that kept calling even after Perot dropped out of the race on 7/16/92.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Robert Morrow

[Len Colby]

I have a friend, Shirley Kinder, active in Texas politics in the Dallas, TX, area. She is age 72 today and was age 42 in 1992 when she went to work as a volunteer for the Ross Perot campaign. I have spoken to here several times including last night.

Shirley says two things. One is that she was working at the Adolphus Hotel at that time and ran into a Newsweek reporter who bragged to her in summer, 1992, that "I'm going to come back in two weeks and break a big one on Ross Perot."

The Newsweek reporter did not know she was a volunteer for the Perot campaign. He told her this before Perot dropped out and I don't think the story every got printed.

Secondly, and very importantly, Shirley Kinder helped to run the Ross Perot volunteer phone bank. This phone bank kept running even AFTER Ross Perot pulled out of the race on 7/16/92. The volunteers kept calling because they were so fired up for Perot that they wanted to talk him back in the race; so they kept working for him.

Shirley Kinder says that in the phone bank room one night was one of Perot's security men and this is one he told her:

"Ross Perot has had a hit put out on his life. I cannot tell you who put the hit out. But he [Perot] should be afraid." And as this man said the last sentence he emphasized every word of it. Or perhaps this man said "The person who who put out the hit is someone he [Perot] should be afraid of." Again, the man would have emphasized every word in that last sentence.

This security man did not explicitly say WHO had put out a hit on Ross Perot, but he emphasized every word of the sentence saying that Ross Perot SHOULD be afraid.

I am being speculative here, but I think the security man was referring to George Herbert Walker Bush, especially given what we know about the Chip Tatum revelations.

Shirley Kinder has told me this story multiple times. Like me, she is a supporter of Ron Paul and that is how I met her over the internet.

So she aged 30 years over the course of a 20-year period? What did fall through a crack in the space time continuum? Based on her “MeetUp” photo she is a lot closer to 42 now that to 72 or even 62. So did misrepresent her age to Morrow or did she deceptively post a decades old photo?

http://www.meetup.com/tlcdallas/members/4484668/

She also comes across as a raving loon (from the link above)

“FDR took our gold Bad. Lincoln tried to buck the Fed. Reserve by printing $ (good)...look what happened to him and Kennedy, for example; they both attempted to buck the Fed, and both were assassignated.......what a coincidence....Not!”

Except that FDR didn’t take anyone's gold let alone hers because ‘best’ case scenario she was born several years after the Gold Reserve Act which limited the amount of gold most private citizens could own. The Fed of course did not come into existence till decades after Lincoln’s presidency and there was no central bank at the time. I guess she’s referring to issuance of Greenbacks 1861 -2 but it’s a stretch to imagine he was assassinated in 1865 over this especially since he was reelected in 1864 and they placed in circulation until 1971. As for JFK he actually decided to replace Silver Certificates, issued by the Treasury with Federal Reserve Notes, issued by the Illuminati, eeer Fed.

All that aside her stories proves nothing especially since her trustworthiness is questionable. So a reporter thought he had the goods on Perot is that a conspiracy. Didn’t Rather try to get Bush? Didn’t the press go after Cain, Hart and others? The story from the security man is hearsay and there is no indication as to what the source was or who was supposedly responsible. Perot was already in 3rd when he quit, after he was last week’s news being tossed after it stint in the bottom of a bird cage.

Tatum’s story by any reason standard completely lacks credibility.

Morrow seems drawn to the stuff like a moth to flame or a fly to…

Len people can look younger than their age look at Raquel Welch she is 72 does she look like a person 72 years old?

The point was that Robert said she was 42 in 92, and was now 72. That doesn't add up.

Amazing even after having your error pointed to you twice you still haven't figured our

2012 - 1992 = 20 not 30. If she is 72 she was 52 in 1992, if she was 42 in 1992 she is 62 now. What ever her age is she is a misinformed loon.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Shirley Kinder is 72 now, and was age 52 then in 1992. She was very youthful then.

My bad on the math. Shirley Kinder is anything but a loon. She is very intelligent, active and energetic.

And, of course, you would have no information with which to judge her as a "loon," having done no research into her. Perot's security man told her that a hit had been placed on Ross Perot's life and that he should be very afraid, as he emphasized every word as he told her that.

And beyond that Colby, how do you know there were not death threats on Ross Perot's life in the 1992 campaign? So you call Kinder "misinformed" ... a volunteer in Dallas at Perot headquarters who personally spoke to a member of Perot's security team in real time in 1992 and was told that a hit had been placed on Perot's life.

Kinder was not specifically told *who* had ordered Perot killed, but it is obvious it was someone very powerful.

I think the person placing the hit on Ross Perot in 1992 was President George Herbert Walker Bush.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Robert Morrow

[Guest Tom Scully]

Ok Tom.

Please show me the "gems" in Baker's work or Hankey's?

Jim, between this, in your prior post, and this post of yours I am responding to after much hesitation, as in, why bother to waste my time, I think I described in the two posts linked below, what I believe Baker has brought to the table, over the past 20 years. Note that I never mentioned Hankey.

....Knowing the Baron is not evidence since the Baron knew Bush's buddy Mr. Hooker and had been in the oil business with him.....

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18751&view=findpost&p=249180

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18751&view=findpost&p=249182

I wrote in the posts linked above that I thought the best (unique work) of Baker were details about Bill Macomber, Robert G. Stone, Jr., and Americares founder, Robert Macauley.

I almost didn't reply because I don't understand why you paint this as strictly an "evidence" issue and you refuse to insist on an explanation from Bush, a standard that would have negated the justification for pursuing the testimony of most of the WC and HSCA witnesses.

I am of the strong opinion, explained in the two posts linked above, that Mr. Bush and his close friend, Mr. Devine, owe the people of the United States an explanation of their interactions with Mr. Demohrenschildt, just as the WC and the HSCA pursued Demohrenschildt for justification for his close ties to Lee Harvey Oswald.

You refuse to give this connection its due. It adds to the obligation for Bush to explain all of it.:

...Kitchel, whose name appears in de Mohrenschildt's address book, said he knew the Russian “very well,” and considered himself a “great admirer.”49 In the early 1960s, George Kitchel was also close with Poppy Bush and played a role in ...

It seems likely Bush and Devine will go to their graves without explaining their relations with the man described as the best friend of the man Bush emphasizes was the lone assassin of President Kennedy, a decades long performance by Mr. Bush that makes it even more necessary for him to explain contacts with Demohrenschildt, and to prod Mr. Devine into also doing so. This is an obligation hanging over both their heads in life, and we must make them consider they will continue in death to be tarred by their choice of secrecy.

Jim,

I think the "show me" posture you have put yourself in has the unintended result of placing you in a strong position to be asking, who framed the Bush family? ...

....Circa 1975, "Gerry" Bemis and Thomas J. Devine initiated, supposedly on their own initiative, at least two meetings to evaluate Bush's future political prospects. ....

And please show me how the Torbitt Document helps us solve the JFK case today? Especially in light of the newly released ARRB documents? Do you think the assassination was carried out by DIvision FIve of the FBI?

Tom:

Way back in the days when I had my three file cabinets full of materials, I did a five part series on Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal for the late Rick De La Rossa's site.

I showed in painstaking detail how there were so many errors in the document so many questionable sources, that its premise about the actual plot to kill JFK simply had not held up. I thought it was an everything but the kitchen sink approach; LBJ, DISC, DIvision FIve, Marcello, Roy Cohn, NASA, ACC, Permindex etc etc etc.

Everyone but the CIA. And what made this so interesting is that this document came right after Garrison, and purportedly relied a lot on Garrison's files. Which is odd.

So, yes, there are some interesting tidbits in it. No doubt: Bloomfiled, Shaw's background, the mention of the top secret DISC etc.

But as far as helping uncover the JFK plot, I don't think so. I think at the time it was meant to confuse things.

http://http://www.newsmakingnews.com/torbitt.htm

....Roy Cohn, L.J. McWillie of Las Vegas, a gambling partner with Cliff Jones, Bobby Baker of Washington, D.C., Ed Levinson of Las Vegas, Benny Seigelbaum of Miami, Henry Crown of Chicago, associate of the Mafia, Patrick Hoy of the controlling clique in General Dynamics and Joe Bonanno of Lionel Corporation of New York.31

It should be pointed out here that John Connally, Paul Raigorodsky and Jean DeMenil were close friends and business associates. The were members of an exclusive club in Northern Jamaica. The name of the club was Tryall located on Montego Bay.

Bill Stephenson, former head of British Intelligence in the U.S., started in the club in 1946. Connally, DeMenil and Raigorodsky owned and still own palatial retreats within the tightly guarded Tryall compound. L.M. Bloomfield met with the three on numerous occasions at Tryall in Jamaica.32 ....

At the time of the assassination, Roy Cohn was counsel and partner in the NYC Fifth Avenue Coach Co. with the owner of Dallas Transit,

Thomas Eli Davis III was brother-in-law of DeMenil family member Josephine Schlumberger Davis, and this had been syndicated in newspapers across the U.S. in October, 1963:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=A8sqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gc0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=840,5517179&dq=songbird+chicago+businessmen+househol&hl=en

...I took the story back to Washington and Attorney General Clark authorized a dozen or so FBI men to check on Ragen's facts. A couple of weeks later they reported that they were true. They also reported that control of the underworld reached into very high places. Some of the rulers of the underworld had become supposedly respected businessmen and politicians whose names were household words in Chicago. Some of them, it was stated, had reformed. Yet they still controlled the mob....

Backed up in 1974 by the publication of this.:

Diaries, 1949-1959: Volume 1

books.google.com Drew Pearson, Tyler Abell - 1974 - 592 pages - Snippet view

I sold the idea to Tom Clark, then Attorney General, and the FBI interviewed Ragen at great length. They brought back a multitude of tips, leads, and evidence.

Tom Clark told me afterward that it led to very high places. J. Edgar Hoover intimated the same thing. He said the people Ragen pointed to had now reformed. I learned later that it pointed to the Hilton hotel chain, Henry Crown,....

...and even later we've become aware of this:

Virginia Warren Daly dies at 80; popular socialite in New York and Washington

OBITUARIES

March 06, 2009|Patricia Sullivan | Sullivan writes for the Washington Post.

...Daly, who was rarely quoted in the news media, enjoyed traveling the world with hotel magnate Conrad "Connie" Hilton, her daughter said....

Ex-farmer, judge Crown remembered as 'wise, fair'

- Daily Herald - NewsBank - Mar 8, 1997

Crown clerked for US Supreme Court Justice Tom Clark from 1956 to 1959 and ... law at the Chicago firm of Jenner and Block, where he became a partner. ...

John J. Crown, judge, philanthropist

- Chicago Sun-Times - NewsBank - Mar 6, 1997

John J. Crown, 67, a former Cook County Circuit Court judge and youngest son of ... In 1959, he joined the law firm of Jenner & Block. ...

The Kennedy assassination cover-up‎ - Page 96

Donald Gibson - History - 2000 - 306 pages+

I am so sick and tired of hearing this as an excuse from people. Well see, you can't dismiss such and such because this sentence of this paragraph is in it.

This is not 1985 anymore. There have been 2 million pages of documents released today that impact this case. If you want to hang out with Albert Osborne and his band of assassins down in Mexico over that Texas murder case then fine. Or with the American Council of Churches, or the five fronts of Permindex or Bill Bonanno or whoever is in the latest version of that giant piece of obfuscation, fine. That is the kind of thing that interests you. It doesn't interest me anymore since there is so much new and good stuff at NARA. And it actually relates to how Kennedy was killed.

See one of my objections to Torbitt, besides the fact that it lies about its sourcing, is this: If everyone killed Kennedy then no one killed Kennedy. And the other side has won. Just by the weight of the obfuscation. To me, its almost as bad as saying Oswald killed Kennedy. If the DIA, DISC, NASA, Marcello, Roy Cohn, Bonnano,the FBI, Permindex, LBJ, Fred Korth etc if they all combined to kill JFK, then show me how it was done? Well Tom, guess what, the book Regicide just about did the same thing. Everyone and his mother killed Kennedy. With JIm Angleton as the coordinator. Well, if you know anything about Angleton, you knew that was a hoax. It was. So is Torbitt. Its not the way the real world works. And you can dig up some old newspaper clips about Cohn being a stock holder in a Dallas bus company, or even Hoover being a shareholder also, and what is the forensic worth of that? To me its Peter Dale Scott/Waldron stuff. You know everyone is connected by six degrees of separation. And if I show that A is related to this entity and that B knew A in 1957, and they had lunch in 1961 but the entity was in Dallas that day, then voila!

Voila what? Did Cohn tell the bus driver to produce a slip showing Oswald was on the bus in question? What is the evidence for that? That Cohn was a stock holder?

I don't want to deal with this kind of stuff anymore. It got us nowhere for decades.

But consider this, someone like BOP veteran Bernardo De Torres infiltrating Garrison's office before anyone knew about his inquiry, and then reporting on it to Miami CIA, and then having Eladio Del Valle, Ferrie's paymaster found murdered gangland style within feet of DeTorres' house on the same died Ferrie mysteriously dies, and DeTorres having photographs of what happened in Dealey Plaza, and then going on to work with Mitch Werbell, who reportedly designed the weapons used to kill Kennedy, now to me that is evidence.

And it was all declassified by the ARRB. Its is so potent that Waldron had to smudge it in his book by saying, well DeTorres was actually working for Trafficante. Baloney.

So why is DeTorres' name not in Torbitt? I think I can tell you why.

I am sick and tired of your de-emphasis of what came from Baker and from Torbitt that was and is truly unique, valuable, and still of as much potential as many other major clues. Last time I checked, the mysteries of the murders of JFK and LHO and of the obstruction of justice that followed are still to be formally solved.

Are the contamination of the WC investigation by the appointments of Warren and Jenner, via their ties to Crown Hilton not original Torbitt details? Were you aware that Cohn was partnered with Weinberg, the owner of Dallas Transit or that Weinberg's three brothers were introduced to Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club in 1963?