Echoes in Dealey Plaza,"Not the Book"

[Steven Skeen]

I do not favor a Knoll shooter for several reasons beyond what I stated regarding lateral motion. Look at the elevation of the Knoll above the street. The shooter would be shooting DOWNWARD. The bullet's trajectory from that location seems inconsistent with the motion of JFK's head wound as seen in the extant Zapruder film. JFK does not appear to be struck from a bullet coming DOWN on his head from the right front. Struck from the front? Yes--but, not with a downward trajectory. I don't know...but it doesn't seem likely to me. I don't wish to speculate beyond that and offer a "theory" as to what did take place, though.

What do you make of the possibility of a sewer drain sniper?

[Steven Skeen]

The behavior and complicity of the SS agents has often confused me. I tend to presently think they were guilty only of gross incompetence, especially Greer. Who would agree to ride in that car knowing it would be driven through a crossfire? Hell, one bullet hit the curb...and hit(s) to the windshield close to Greer's head if Altgen's photo is valid. I'm surprised Jackie's head didn't also come apart as close as it was to John's during the fatal shots. Now think of that. Would have been interesting for them to have to alter a second autopsy.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Steven Skeen

[Malcolm Ward]

There are two knolls.

_________________

That's a fascinating post, Malcolm.

First it's nice to know a bit more (a lot actually) of Walkers movements after landing at Shreveport (from Dallas, in the air during assassination) to be met by Ned Touchstone and co.

I like the whole article but particularly the shift of focus to superiors re SS and the Mention of O'Donnell. He fall apart, didn't he? Something really got to him that turned him into a wreck while others soldiered on.

Also this is an opportunity to again mention Ewald Peters who was the head of German security under Adenour and Erhardt. (sic) He was also an SD (village cop or something like that) member in early NAZI regime who went on to be an Officer in the Death Squads that followed the Wermacht into the Soviet Union, went 'underground, was trained in US (now ID Ewald), then on to Kriminal-Raten and in the US early Nov for a burial, then likely edvance party for Erhardt's visit in mid Dec when the Chancellor visited LBJ at his ranch later Dec.

I used J-store to search and found a total of a few inches in about 13 articles mentioned* by one unnamed SS member as friend, good guy. (mentioned in a couple of articles (Time Feb I think) after Ewald was unmasked by east German NAZI hunters in early jan 64' then shortly found dead in Jail. An interesting footnote in history)

There's more but... : an interesting article that I think helps to refocus.

edit add* typos

add2 One thing (possibly little known) that happened during the German visit to LBJ was LBJ teeling Erhardt to focus on Latin America so the US could shift more to Indochina. ewiw

edit add3 the owner(future) of the TSBD building flew the Dallas Boneheads to mexico for fun and games in 1948. fwiw

Ther's a lot in the article so it needs reading and rereading. I'll copy it here:

posted by Malcolm

FAST FORWARD: At 12:23 on November 22, from his office on the 7th floor of the Mercantile Building, Haroldson Lafayette Hunt watched John Kennedy ride towards Dealey Plaza, where fate awaited him at 12:30. A few minutes later, escorted by six men in two cars, Hunt left the center of Dallas without even stopping by his house.

At that very moment; General Walker was in a plane between New Orleans and Shreveport. He joined Mr. Hunt in one of his secret hideaways across the Mexican border. There they remained for a month, protected by personal guards, under the impassive eyes of the FBI. It was not until Christmas that Hunt, Walker and their party returned to Dallas.

It isn't enough to want to kill the President. There is also the Secret Service to think about. The Presidential assistants were prepared to affront political obstacles, but their "grace and their airy flanerie" had shielded them from the brutal side of American life. Innocent of violence and ignorant of hate, they failed to see the danger. Only Daniel P. Moynihan, a former longshoreman, had some idea of such things. Of all the Cabinet officials, only Bob Kennedy knew the risks of the Presidency. But he couldn't be behind his brother every minute of the day.

Ken O'Donnell, who was in charge of the White House staff, had authority not only over the personnel, but also over the Secret Service. He could transfer or fire anyone he wanted, and he had the power, to introduce reforms. He was also in charge of the President's trips.

The 56 Secret Service agents assigned to the White House detail were under the authority of the Treasury Department, but the responsible official, Assistant Treasury Secretary Robert Wallace, left the everyday direction of the Service to James Rowley, a mediocre civil servant. Gerald Behn, head of the White House Secret Service detail, lacked the necessary intelligence and qualifications for the job.

It is difficult, of course, to protect an active President, and it is impossible to protect him completely during his public appearances. But there are ways to reduce the risk, and there are certain rules which are applied by Presidential security forces throughout the world, be it in France, the USSR, or Bolivia. The protection of the President witnin the United States(3) presents a special problem. The Secret Service is obliged to cooperate with the local police, which are sometimes incompetent or unreliable, and can even, as in Dallas, be dangerous.(4) But a Presidential security force should be able to rise to the challenge. The guerrilla warfare specialists who organized the Dallas ambush were amazed to discover that Kennedy's Secret Service worked like a troop of boy scouts.

Several members of the White House detail were not qualified for their jobs. Their average age was 40, and as in the Senate the highest positions were awarded on the basis of seniority. Bill Greer, the driver of the Presidential Lincoln, was 54 and had 35 years' experience, enough to lull anybody's reflexes. After O'Donnell and perhaps Kellerman (the agent who rode in the front of the President's car in Dallas), Greer bears a heavy responsibility for the success of the assassination. We shall explain why a little later.

The White House agents had two sessions a year on a Washington firing range, but they practiced only target shooting like any amateur. Their reflexes were never tested. At any rate, a security agent's gun is of secondary importance. Generally, he has no time to shoot. His job is to anticipate an attempt on the President's life. Soviet security agents, for instance, have narrowly defined responsibilities. In official motorcades, one agent watches the windows on the first floor, another those on the second, another the spectators in the front row, still another the people standing alone, another the local policemen and a sixth the soldiers lining the road.

Lawson, the Secret Service advance man in Dallas, let the local authorities show him around the city, and his report reached the White House only the day before the President's departure. Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963 was about as heavily guarded as the Grand Canyon on a winter day.

There is a standard procedure for assuring the security of a motorcade traversing a city. As Superintendent Ducret, the man responsible for President De Gaulle's security, describes it: "Of course, it is impossible to watch everything and occupy everything along the President's route. But it can be assumed that occupied office or apartment buildings are relatively safe. A potential assassin might, of course, try to enter one of these buildings, but he would be at the mercy of a witness. Serious conspirators will rarely take such a risk.

"On the other hand, all unoccupied buildings, administrative buildings outside of working hours, warehouses, building sites, and naturally all bridges, walls, and vacant lots that would be ideal for an ambush must not only be watched, but actually occupied by forces placed directly under the supervision of the Presidential security division."

On November 21, the two men in charge of the ambush observed the Kennedy motorcade in Houston. In Texas, as in Utah, the Secret Service was entirely dependent upon the local police. Not only did the agents behave on these trips as if they were members of the party; they were always one step ahead. At 12:30 pm, seconds before the assassination, agent Emory Roberts jotted in his shift report, "12:35 pm, the President arrived at the Trade Mart." The Secret Service was already thinking ahead to tomorrow, when Kennedy was to visit Lyndon Johnson on his ranch. Roy Kellerman, who took his place at Dallas, proved so incompetent that at Parkland Hospital his men started taking orders from agent Emory Roberts. Later, during the flight back to Washington, Rufus Youngblood took over. These men had traveled 200,000 miles with the President. Somewhere along the line, they had neglected the first rule of security: they had lost their reflexes.

When the first shot rang out at Dealey Plaza, agent Clint Hill, who was later decorated, was the first to move, and it took him 7 or 8 seconds to react. In eight seconds, the average sprinter can cover 80 yards. Yet "Halfback," the back-up car in which Hill was riding, was almost touching the Presidential limousine, and neither vehicle was traveling more than 12 miles an hour.

Kennedy's Secret Service agents apparently had no idea of the importance of a second in an assassination attempt. Agent Hickey, riding in Halfback, had an AR-15 automatic rifle on his lap, but it took him two seconds to load it and get ready to fire. In two seconds a modern bullet travels more than a mile.

The organizers of the ambush knew, of course, that the Secret Service was inefficient, but they had never imagined that their reflexes were that slow, and they had laid their plans in the assumption that Kennedy's agents would react immediately. The tactical and ballistic aspects of the operation, which we shall examine later, were based on a hypothetical operating time of three seconds. This was the estimated reaction time of Kennedy's bodyguards. But the President's driver could have reduced it even more. The President's car was a Lincoln with a souped-up engine specially designed for rapid accelerations, and we shall see later how speed affects the accuracy of a gunman.

The blame must be laid not so much on the Secret Service agents as on their chiefs, and on the White House assistant responsible for the President's security. We have cited only their most glaring errors, but there were others -- less important perhaps, but characteristic of their lack of discipline, such as their drinking on duty. Abraham Bolden, the only Negro in the Presidential bodyguard, asked to testify before the Warren Commission on the subject of some of these accusations, but the Committee refused to hear him. Later, he was fired from the Secret Service on grounds of professional incompetence.

The Secret Service was guilty of negligence, as the highly respected Wall Street Journal commented. But its agents were professionals, and they recognized the work of other professionals. They were the first in the President's entourage to realize that the assassination was a well organized plot. They discussed it among themselves at Parkland Hospital and later during the plane ride back to Washington. They mentioned it in their personal reports to Secret Service Chief James Rowley that night. Ten hours after the assassination, Rowley knew that there had been three gunmen, and perhaps four, at Dallas that day, and later on the telephone Jerry Behn remarked to Forrest Sorrels (head of the Dallas Secret Service), "It's a plot." "Of course," was Sorrel's reply. Robert Kennedy, who had already interrogated Kellerman, learned that evening from Rowley that the Secret Service believed the President had been the victim of a powerful organization.

President Kennedy was dead, but the Secret Service was never officially inculpated. There were several staff changes in the White House detail, but two agents, Youngblood and Hill, were decorated. Because it reinforced its thesis, the Warren Commission blamed the Presidential guards, but a soldier is worth no more than his commanding officer, and the heads of the Secret Service were not worth much. As for Ken O'Donnell, ex-captain of the Harvard rugby team, at Dallas he was up against a team that played rough.

Exerts taken from here.

http://www.sott.net/...-Fascist-Texans

John,whenever I look up JFK Nazi's seem to crop up.I found a old link here that implies there involvement.Also a Link on Walker.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Nazi%20Connection%20to%20JFK%20Assass.html

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKSinvestBirch.htm

[Malcolm Ward]

The behavior and complicity of the SS agents has often confused me. I tend to presently think they were guilty only of gross incompetence, especially Greer. Who would agree to ride in that car knowing it would be driven through a crossfire? Hell, one bullet hit the curb...and hit(s) to the windshield close to Greer's head if Altgen's photo is valid. I'm surprised Jackie's head didn't also come apart as close as it was to John's during the fatal shots. Now think of that. Would have been interesting for them to have to alter a second autopsy.

Steven Skeen said,

What do you make of the possibility of a sewer drain sniper?

Have you ever seen this tape Steven.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Malcolm Ward

[Steven Skeen]

Hello Malcolm, I am familiar with Mr Wilson's deductions and I think he's done admirably in some key areas. Listen, the sewer drain explains how Lee Bower's had no clear sight from his catbird perch of any shooters fleeing the area. The rifle sight from there to the occupants of the Limo is like sighting fish in a barrel when one sees the photo restaging from that vantage. I am not fully sold, but it does make a case for itself. I do not, incidentally, particularly like the use of the Zapruder film for deductive conclusions as it has been solidly proven to have been tampered with.

[Malcolm Ward]

When General Walker,a military tactician,surveyed Dealey Plaza.I am sure he would have spotted the storm drain.If you look at the storm drain another way it could be likened to a Pill Box.There are a lot of them over here in the UK,even now many years after WW11.I have been in a few myself.Dark dank concrete boxes with little height and not much headroom.Much like a storm drain.Photos of pill boxes here.Note they were often,to the most part buried leaving only the shooting slots showing.

This one in particular.

Type 25

Extant example at Sheephatch Lane .

. A part of GHQ Line.

Horizontal section at the level of the embrasures.

Pillbox Type FW3/25, horizontal section at the level of the embrasures. Note simple circular plan.

The type 25 pillbox is the only FW3 design that is circular with a diameter of 8 feet (2.4 m). The walls were just 12 inches (30 cm) thick with no internal walls. There were three embrasures suitable for rifles or light machine guns and a small entrance like a low window. This design was made from reinforced concrete shuttered by corrugated iron; this gave the design the popular name Armco after the manufacturer of corrugated iron of that name.

http://en.wikipedia....of_World_War_II

I know the storm drain in Dealey Plaza had little room for a rifle.But has I earlier pointed out,the Welrod,operational from 1942 through to 1991.It was designed for assassinations,Welrod pistols in .32 / 7.65mm were also purchased and later manufactured in USA,so General Walker sure knew about them.Could have been used,in my opinion from the storn drain.Info on Welrod posted again here.

http://world.guns.ru...d-silent-e.html

Also the advantage of shooting upwards towards JFK would give a trajectory similar to one fired from above,Book Depository area.So when looking at the damage to JFK,s head could presume a downward trajectory could it not also presume a upward trajectory as Tom Wilson seems to suggest in the You Tube video I posted earlier above.A shot from here would attract little attention,indeed the only people looking at the road would have been a Driver like Greer,who would scan the road ahead.I do when I am driving.

If Greer did indeed think shots were coming from the front,would this not explain his slowing down/stopping.He would not later in that day say he saw a shot from the front because as we now know,a shot from the front in LBJ,s reasoning would confirm a conspiracy and possibly lead to WW111.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Malcolm Ward

[David Andrews]

The info on fascist Texans (in post # 29) sourced from the SOTT website seems to have been cribbed - by the Sott blogger - from the highly dubious book Farewell America. Caveat emptor, caveat emptiness.

Edited April 26, 2012 by David Andrews

[Greg Burnham]

I do not favor a Knoll shooter for several reasons beyond what I stated regarding lateral motion. Look at the elevation of the Knoll above the street. The shooter would be shooting DOWNWARD. The bullet's trajectory from that location seems inconsistent with the motion of JFK's head wound as seen in the extant Zapruder film. JFK does not appear to be struck from a bullet coming DOWN on his head from the right front. Struck from the front? Yes--but, not with a downward trajectory. I don't know...but it doesn't seem likely to me. I don't wish to speculate beyond that and offer a "theory" as to what did take place, though.

What do you make of the possibility of a sewer drain sniper?

Definitely possible...perhaps even likely. This holds true especially when one considers that the head shot occurred farther west on Elm than what was originally reported. The "X" marked on the street today is not the correct location.

[Steven Skeen]

Definitely possible...perhaps even likely. This holds true especially when one considers that the head shot occurred farther west on Elm than what was originally reported. The "X" marked on the street today is not the correct location.

Thank you, Greg. May I impose upon you with a couple of additional inquiries? Do I understand correctly that only the immediate family (Jackie and RFK,...) was allowed to view the President's body after it was reposed in state? What do you think the likelihood of a future exhumation is? As I understand, RFK was the primary watchdog while alive. For example, he was responsible for the brain's whereabouts and final reunion with the body, according to JFK's secretary

edit: secretary's statements are unconfirmed as best I can determine.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Steven Skeen

[Greg Burnham]

Definitely possible...perhaps even likely. This holds true especially when one considers that the head shot occurred farther west on Elm than what was originally reported. The "X" marked on the street today is not the correct location.

Thank you, Greg. May I impose upon you with a couple of additional inquiries? Do I understand correctly that only the immediate family (Jackie and RFK,...) was allowed to view the President's body after it was reposed in state? What do you think the likelihood of a future exhumation is? As I understand, RFK was the primary watchdog while alive. For example, he was responsible for the brain's whereabouts and final reunion with the body, according to JFK's secretary

edit: secretary's statements are unconfirmed as best I can determine.

I believe that is the "official" story. Yes, no one else supposedly viewed the body besides some of the immediate family and the mortician. In 1967 the body was reinterred--in the middle of the night! For all intents and purposes, it was a secret military operation carried out by the Army Corp of Engineers. If memory serves a reporter was even arrested for being too nosey about it and trying to find out what was going on. So, to answer your question, IMO, there will never be an exhumation for the purposes of a second autopsy to discover the truth. There should be...but it won't happen.

edit: Of course Bobby, Teddy, a priest, et al were there for the reinterrment.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Greg Burnham

[J. Raymond Carroll]

IMO, there will never be an exhumation for the purposes of a second autopsy to discover the truth. There should be...but it won't happen.

I would not bet on that.

At the first Duquesne JFK conference all the forensic pathologists agreed

that only a proper medico-legal autopsy

can reveal the truth about JFK's wounds.

So if the inquiry continues, as it does on this and other forums

I believe a proper autopsy is inevitable,

though it may not be in our lifetime.

[Greg Burnham]

I hope you're right, Ray. (Except I prefer it in our lifetimes). But, you know, looking at the pictures of the reinterment, I still doubt it. It would have been very easy to do it then, but they didn't.

[Steven Skeen]

It seems to me a lot of members might suspect Bobby did not want an examination of the brain or body at that time because of the can of worms it would open, so to speak; for whatever that's worth.

[Greg Burnham]

It seems to me a lot of members might suspect Bobby did not want an examination of the brain or body at that time because of the can of worms it would open, so to speak; for whatever that's worth.

I agree, Steven. As frustrating as it is for us, sometimes the "Kennedy family" itself appears to have blocked further investigation. However, that probably is not entirely accurate either. Bobby had his own plans to re-open the investigation. He believed that he needed the power of the office of the POTUS to pull it off effectively. He was stopped. End of story. Case closed.