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Paul Brancato
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Recent interview with Antonio Veciana in spanish:

http://www.diariolasamericas.com/locales/kennedy-mato-cia-exagente-entrevista.html

You can use google translate on the page and it does a fair job of converting it.

Maybe this is "old news," but in the interview Veciana says he met Maurice Bishop in Havana, and it was there that Bishop asked him to work for the CIA.

Just wondering: Was Dave Phillips ever in Cuba after Castro came into power?

--Tommy :sun

Never mind. I just found the answer to my question in the first sentence of this article:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/09/15/george-f-will-a-perfect-failure/

Also, A. J. Weberman says that Phillips was infiltrated into Cuba in June, 1961 and met with Veciana.

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Tommy, not to be repetitive but not only did Phillips work for the CIA in Havana before the Cuba project kicked off, he contacted anti-Castro types who were working on a Castro assassination and Phillips even mentions using an alias and disguise in those contacts. If you have SWHT I go into great detail on that in my chapter on Phillips, pointing out a great number of such details - down to the level that Veciana notes contacting Bishop at a certain restaurant -which David Phillips identified as his personal favorite. Of course each detail was circumstantial but together they made such a tight case that I've never doubted Phillips was Bishop.

As to Weberman, uh, well not exactly, Phillips worked as a contract undercover employee in Havana for the CIA, was exposed, recalled, then went back briefly before leaving permanently.

I suppose he might have infiltrated back in 61 but I'm not sure of any source or corroboration for that...it doesn't seem to fit with the work or station he was assigned to at the time.

-- Larry

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Steve Rosen - I was not aware that there was antipathy between Phillips and Angleton, and would like to know where to look for evidence of this. You make a good point that Phillips would have been quite sloppy in meeting Oswald if he was setting him up as a patsy. Newman, in his great book 'Oswald and the CIA', says that Angleton was in the best position to 'patsify' Oswald, and of course one would have to think that Angleton knew that Oswald was part of a smear FPCC campaign. By your logic Phillips would have been involved in that smear campaign, and Angleton would have used his knowledge to superimpose the setting up of Oswald the patsy onto that MC trip by first tying him with Kostikov, using an impersonator to do so at least on the phone, and then hiding that information long enough to get the FBI to remove Oswald from the watch list, and revealing the Kostikov connection right after the assassination.

Are you aware of any information that would either support or negate the possibility that William Harvey and E. Howard Hunt could together run the on the ground in Dallas hit team? Just curious...

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Steve Rosen - I was not aware that there was antipathy between Phillips and Angleton, and would like to know where to look for evidence of this. You make a good point that Phillips would have been quite sloppy in meeting Oswald if he was setting him up as a patsy. Newman, in his great book 'Oswald and the CIA', says that Angleton was in the best position to 'patsify' Oswald, and of course one would have to think that Angleton knew that Oswald was part of a smear FPCC campaign. By your logic Phillips would have been involved in that smear campaign, and Angleton would have used his knowledge to superimpose the setting up of Oswald the patsy onto that MC trip by first tying him with Kostikov, using an impersonator to do so at least on the phone, and then hiding that information long enough to get the FBI to remove Oswald from the watch list, and revealing the Kostikov connection right after the assassination.

Are you aware of any information that would either support or negate the possibility that William Harvey and E. Howard Hunt could together run the on the ground in Dallas hit team? Just curious...

Paul,

Maybe Angleton arranged for Oswald (or a double) to be seen in the company of Phillips by Veciana.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Paul Brancato, on 02 Dec 2013 - 2:36 PM, said:snapback.png

Steve Rosen - I was not aware that there was antipathy between Phillips and Angleton, and would like to know where to look for evidence of this. You make a good point that Phillips would have been quite sloppy in meeting Oswald if he was setting him up as a patsy. Newman, in his great book 'Oswald and the CIA', says that Angleton was in the best position to 'patsify' Oswald, and of course one would have to think that Angleton knew that Oswald was part of a smear FPCC campaign. By your logic Phillips would have been involved in that smear campaign, and Angleton would have used his knowledge to superimpose the setting up of Oswald the patsy onto that MC trip by first tying him with Kostikov, using an impersonator to do so at least on the phone, and then hiding that information long enough to get the FBI to remove Oswald from the watch list, and revealing the Kostikov connection right after the assassination.
Are you aware of any information that would either support or negate the possibility that William Harvey and E. Howard Hunt could together run the on the ground in Dallas hit team? Just curious...

Paul,

Maybe Angleton arranged for Oswald (or a double) to be seen in the company of Phillips by Veciana and even, perhaps, still unknown other people?

Paul and Tommy,

Remember that Veciana said that he was early to his meeting and that's the only reason he saw Oswald. Regardless of that, I find it hard to swallow that Phiilps, "the Pillar" of spy craft would arrange to meet two different operatives at the same location within 15 minutes, or so, of each other. Unless he was "sloppy" and/or not as skilled as everyone suggests.

If Veciana was meant to see Oswald to what end? If he was meant to see Oswald, why wouldn't Phillips identify Oswald to Veciana?

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Paul Brancato, on 02 Dec 2013 - 2:36 PM, said:snapback.png

Steve Rosen - I was not aware that there was antipathy between Phillips and Angleton, and would like to know where to look for evidence of this. You make a good point that Phillips would have been quite sloppy in meeting Oswald if he was setting him up as a patsy. Newman, in his great book 'Oswald and the CIA', says that Angleton was in the best position to 'patsify' Oswald, and of course one would have to think that Angleton knew that Oswald was part of a smear FPCC campaign. By your logic Phillips would have been involved in that smear campaign, and Angleton would have used his knowledge to superimpose the setting up of Oswald the patsy onto that MC trip by first tying him with Kostikov, using an impersonator to do so at least on the phone, and then hiding that information long enough to get the FBI to remove Oswald from the watch list, and revealing the Kostikov connection right after the assassination.

Are you aware of any information that would either support or negate the possibility that William Harvey and E. Howard Hunt could together run the on the ground in Dallas hit team? Just curious...

Paul,

Maybe Angleton arranged for Oswald (or a double) to be seen in the company of Phillips by Veciana.

[...]

If he was meant to see Oswald why wouldn't Phillips identify Oswald to Veciana?

Chris,

I think this is what you're asking:

"If Veciana was meant to see Oswald with Phillips, why wouldn't Phillips identify Oswald to Veciana?"

If I've got that right, you seem to be assuming that Phillips knew that Veciana was supposed to see Oswald and Phillips together.

But what if Phillips didn't know that?

What if Angleton was trying to set both Oswald and Phillips up for something at apparent cross purposes in Angleton's Grand Game?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Guys, there may be an even simpler explanation. Phillips was a headquarters guy, his tradecraft skills were not necessarily in practice (same with Howard Hunt) and Dallas

would not be considered a hostile environment - not like MC where everybody fielded surveillance teams. So he meets with Oswald to discuss a pending visit to the

embassies in Mexico City and some potential anti-FPCC propaganda. Veciana shows up early or Oswald stays late...done. Veciana thinks nothing of it and later wonders

only because he was talking to Phillips about more Castro assassination attempts and links that to Oswald.

And if you question my comment on Phillip's tradecraft, in a separate instance in a hotel room, Phillips goes to the bathroom leaving his open briefcase for Veciana to

peruse and Veciana sees and later describes what is pretty clearly an AMWORLD memo with Henry Hecksher's initials on the distribution....which Veciana later thought might have

been Howard Hunt.

-- not all these headquarters guys were up to 007 class field work, both Phillips and Hunt have security violation citations in their files on more than one occasion, Larry

Edited by Larry Hancock
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Tommy & Larry,

I'm sorry. I put "pillar" in quotes about Phillip's spycraft because I was quoting another post in this same thread and I actually was being just a little facetious. And I think, Tommy, you had actually posted that Angleton may have arranged for Oswald and Phillips to be seen together.

Although I believe a conspiracy as complex as we have is Angleton's M.O., I don't think Veciana was meant to see Oswald.

The other thing this incident reinforces with me is that I'm not convinced that 'our' Oswald was ever in Mexico. There's no evidence that it wasn't all made up by the CIA as part of the story to frame him as the assassin.

When exactly did this encounter take place? or does Veciana simply not remember? The official timeline has Oswald leaving New Orleans in late September for Mexico at the same time that Marina and Ms. Paine leave for Dallas. If Oswald is seen in late September by Veciana in Dallas then something isn't kosher with that timeline.

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Steve Rosen - I was not aware that there was antipathy between Phillips and Angleton, and would like to know where to look for evidence of this. ... Just curious...

Paul,

Thanks for the kind words. I always enjoy your contributions here.

You'd think Angleton & Phillips might like each other, both being bright, talented writers, WWII vets, & rising stars in the early Agency years. But somehow, animus crept in.

In his bio The Night Watch, Phillips describes Angleton in very unflattering terms. He also wrote that he didn't see or meet Angleton until Phillips was at HQ as Chief of the Western Hemisphere Division in the early 1970's, which is almost assuredly not true.

For one, Anne Goodpasture places both of them at a retirement party for their mutual friend Win Scott in 1969 (see Jeff Morley's book Our Man in Mexico).

If you read Angleton's Congressional testimonies, he says Phillips was honest but not a very good operations officer. Quite a slam putting that on the record.

I found another source where Phillips warned a fellow officer that Angleton was dangerous & to be avoided.

So in my view, a natural question would be: Why did these two paragons of intelligence seemingly not like each other?

It could easily be attributed to personality differences.

Or, it could be a work-related point of contention.

Mexico City & the files of Lee Harvey Oswald appear to be a point where their professional interests could have intersected.

Phillips was working on at least one anti-FPCC operation which very well might have targeted or used Oswald in some way, with DRE assets in New Orleans, or in Mexico City.

Angleton and his CI/SIG office had exclusive access to both the Cuban & Russian components of Oswald's file. (See John Newman's book Oswald & the CIA, & Lisa Pease's essay on Angleton in The Assassinations for a primer there.)

For me, it's hard to draw any firm conclusions on the implications of Veciana's new statement.

If in fact Phillips was meeting Oswald in Dallas, it could have been an authorized anti-FPCC operation (or some other legitimate purpose). If Phillips knew Oswald was to be involved in some way with the assassination of JFK, it would be terrible tradecraft to be seen with Oswald.

Phillips took accusations & heat for years for his alleged meeting with Oswald in Dallas. Whether Oswald was the source of the mutual disdain Phillips & Angleton seemed to have shared is up for debate. More research is needed on both men relative to Oswald & each other.

Larry Hancock's analysis in this thread is a nice starting point & seems to make good sense to me.

As for Harvey & Hunt running the JFK assassination, I'm not sure.

In this Forum, David Sanchez Morales & Rip Robertson have been suggested as reasonable candidates to have run any such operation - if one actually existed.

James Richards, Zach Robertson, Lee Forman, & Larry Hancock have the best posts on that speculative subject throughout the Education Forum (and Larry on his blog - I don't have the link handy). I'd definitely recommend searching their posts & reviving any threads of interest with your always on-point questions.

Thanks for your interest - as well as that of Chris, Tommy, Larry & others viewing & posting on this timely & unresolved topic. Keep it up.

-- Steve

Edited by Steve Rosen
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One good starting point for putting this in context would be to think through what Phillip's jobs were in the fall of 63.

His regular job had involved intelligence operations against the Soviet and Cuban embassies in Mexico City, even he admitted that. And that amounts to true counter intelligence.

And in 1963 Angleton was making a major move to insert himself in CI being conducted in both Mexico City - and in Saigon for that matter. He had done just that

successfully at JMWAVE following the BOP fiasco.

Phillips new job under Fitzgerald was going to be anti-Castro propaganda and operations throughout the region, not just in Mexico City. For example, only he and the

station chief were briefed about AMWORLD and Phillips was assigned support tasks for that in Mexico and possibly elsewhere in the region.

So...Phillip's job was in transition. It would be likely to see him involved in the expansion of the anti-FPCC effort we know was going on, in the AMSANTA effort and other

intelligence operations against Cuba. Certainly the MC station had been trying to either turn or contaminate virtually all the Cuban staff there. and was continuing that effort.

So does all this put Phillips in some conflict with Angleton's drive to expand his CI influence in Mexico City, possibly. Does it put Phillips in between new boss Fitzgerald and his boss at the Mexico

City station, possibly. And of course there is Phillip's on ongoing connection with Veciana which seems to be virtually outside his day job. Not to mention that the original Castro assassination

plot against Castro in Havana, carried out with Phillips in contact with Veciana, had involved associates of Sylvio Odio's father and that is what put he and his wife in prison. Or that JMWAVE was virtually at war with JURE in the fall of 63. So we have Oswald with Phillips in Dallas and Oswald with Sylvia Odio in Dallas...

-- I think my point here is that in the larger picture there were lots of concurrent things going on in the fall of 1963, and unfortunately we do sort though all of it... Larry

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Steve - maybe we shouldn't take the unkind assessments of each other made by Angleton and Phillips too seriously. You point out that Phillips probably lied in his book when he claimed not to have met Angleton until 1971. If they were working Oswald together by 1963 it would have been secret, perhaps ultra secret if the mission was to kill a president. I'm not saying they did, just that their protestations don't prove anything. Rather than causing me to dwell on whether Phillips wanted Veciana to see Oswald, or that Phillips was just a little careless, I prefer to see Veciana's recent statement as more proof that some CIA members were running Oswald. Of course Oswald may have thought he was running a completely different operation, monitoring Cuban groups on both sides of the Castro divide, dangling himself to see what he could catch. Michael and Ruth Paine's recollections support this idea. I think Newman's postulate that Angleton deliberately created the perfect patsy for the Dallas assassination makes sense, and implies a large CIA component. No one has yet commented on something I suggested a few times on recent posts, something I admit is counterintuitive in some way, which is that one way to accept the possibility of a larger conspiracy, a complex operation involving a patsy, multiple shooters, withdrawal of protection, etc., is to see it as a case of safety in numbers. Rather than think, as propagandists for the lone nut theory love to suggest, that too many people involved made a coverup more difficult, I think perhaps the opposite is true. The pressure on any individual, involved in such a complicated operation involving pre and post assassination plans, to keep the secret would have been enormous, and the plethora of eyes on possible leaks and the capacity to deal with leakers would make the plotters feel more apt to believe, when signing on to such a plan, that it would be successful and well concealed. The only other way to account for the pieces being so seamlessly in place is wishful thinking and randomness. Secret Service withdrawing support in the motorcade, Dallas cops standing down, no one checking all the windows, all just a bunch of JFK haters wishing him ill and hoping someone would take a potshot? Oswald being taken off the FBI watch list, Oswald or an imposter meeting with the head of KGB foreign assassinations, just random occurrences? Drastic changes in foreign policy by JFK's successor just good luck for the military industrial complex? Oswald's fake Communist credentials a fortuitous accident making a true investigation impossible? If Oswald did not shoot JFK the alternative seems to me to be a massive conspiracy.

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  • 2 months later...

'South Pacific Mail' ...was a British paper....

KNIGHT, ----- (? DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS ?)
"Knight" = Headquarters Chief of Propaganda Operations. "Knight was a tall, almost theatrically handsome man who had spent most of his CIA career on the outside, i.e. under cover. He spoke fluent Spanish and at one time had owned and edited a Spanish newspaper." (GUTD, p. 26) "After the war I moved to New York, sold a play, and used the money to go to Chile, to become a writer. Why don't you buy the 'South Pacific Mail?' asked the American consul in Valparaiso, Chili - more than 30 years ago - as he handed me an official-looking envelope. ... at age 27, became the copublisher and editor of a British newspaper touted as the oldest English-language publication in Latin America." (Secret Wars Diary, David Atlee Phillips, pp. 33-34). CIA 116-50 and CIA 158-610 re-releases To: Curtis from Knight.
CIA 116-50 re-release as CIA Doc JFK-104-10015-10153, p. 1; CIA 119-51 re-release as CIA Doc JFK 104-10015-10154 ; Give Us This Day, E. Howard Hunt, pp. 9, 26, 35, 37, 46, 77-78, 101-102, 145, 176-177, 181-183, 188, 180-191, 194, 197, 200-203, 206, 208-210; CIA 158-610, re-released as CIA JFK 104-10015-10168 , Lifton's pp. 91-93
Edited by Steven Gaal
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  • 4 months later...

Regarding Steven Gaal's last post, going by memory, it was either before or after, or both that some Spanish newspaper(s) were purchased. Details escape me, although I do remember that William Gaudet published the Latin American Newsletter, which was funded by the CIA; La Prensa was also an interesting paper.Regarding Paul's comments on Phillips and Angleton with Winston Scott out of the loop, I find quite accurate, with Goodpasture also helping the former. But my one observation has to do with the Colonel Bishop that Dick Russell interviewed, I always thought this was a different "Bishop," and the following document reference made me think of him....
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=135957&relPageId=6

It would be something of a fit if Colonel Bishop was trying to disguise who he was, although it is just a stab in the dark.

Edited by Robert Howard
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