Harvey and Lee: John Armstrong

[Don Jeffries]

Bernie,

I found the official post-assassination timeline for Oswald to be absurd long before Lee Farley arrived on the scene. In fact, on the Bledsoe-bus thread he started, I first ran afoul of both him and Greg Parker. Not realizing anything about their personalities, I merely chided them for being what I thought was aggressively disrespectful to David Lifton. The fact that I agreed with them totally and disagreed with David mattered little to them. I had taken them to task, and they would not accept that.

Thus, I became, in their eyes, some kind of Lifton fan boy. This will, I'm sure, come as a great surprise to David, whom I have only had a few email exchanges with and really don't know at all. But it is indicative of how Greg Parker seeks to manipulate things in order to convey the message he wants.

If you think I hate Greg, I suggest you check out the forum he runs, and see just what kind of vile things have been said about me over there, including the most childish cartoon caricatures imaginable. I object to what Greg Parker is doing here- twisting information, attacking the messenger, and playing the martyr all the while, claiming it is he who is being attacked. For all I know, Greg Parker could be the nicest guy in the world. I wouldn't have a forum that attacked him, or anyone else, like that.

You''ll notice that I can disagree with Armstrong's post-assassination timeline without attacking his work overall, and without trying to brand his massive book as being worthless. I also would never accuse him of being dishonest or deceptive, as Greg continues to do, without any proof, in regards to Jack White.

[Greg Parker]

Larry,

David has already provided Sylvia Odio's testimony, in which she clearly states that the man was introduced as "Leon Oswald." I did this as well, some time ago, in the Sylvia Oido-Inconvenient Witnesses thread. It doesn't appear that her testimony is about to stop Greg Parker from claiming what he wants to claim.

As I've stated before, I have no vested interest here- I am not an Armstrong disciple. However, there is no denying that he unearthed a huge mass of material, and that much of it is important. I can't imagine Armstrong has made much money on his book. It might have cost him more to have it printed, for all I know, than he's made in sales. Whatever you can say about it, Harvey and Lee took a lot of time and effort on his part.

I'm sure there are mistakes in Armstrong's work- as I noted, I don't accept his post-assassination timeline and Tippit scenario, which relies heavily upon the official narrative. However, it's irresponsible for Greg or anyone else to infer that the entire theory is deceptive in nature, and especially to continue accusing the late Jack White of unethical behavior.

The testimony was not what was asked for. That's like preferring Marina's testimony to what she originally told authorities.

The rest of what you say is just an irrelevant rant - another attack on me. Larry never mentioned anything about Armstrong or his theory.

[Larry Hancock]

Don, l do see you begin that thread with a WC citation, for those interested the following is the complete excerpt of where a name is mentioned:

Mrs. Odio.

They told me they were coming because of the assassination of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father and mother had belonged in Cuba, and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas, and I told him a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about what happened in my house.

Mrs. Odio.

He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and the American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in Spanish, trying to be cute, but very few, like "Hola," like that in Spanish.

rs. Odio.

to say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don't recall at the time I was at the door things about him.
I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this American.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald?

Mrs. Odio.

She says she doesn't recall. She could not say that it is true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name very clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men.

Mr. Liebeler.

But she didn't remember it?

Mrs. Odio.

No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This I don't recall. I said, "I am going to see Antonio Alentado," which is one of the leaders of the JURE here in Dallas. And I think I just casually said, "I am going to mention these names to him to see if he knows any of them." But I forgot about them.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Larry Hancock

[Greg Parker]

Here is a THIRD witness who says Sylvia never mentioned getting the name "Oswald" from the visitors themselves.

[Greg Parker]

And I'm still waiting for a non-farcical explanation as to why a person impersonating someone would ( a ) not use the correct first name and ( b ) go unshaven when the person being impersonated was always clean-shaven.

[Jim Hargrove]

Don't you get it? This is all a SPY GAME! Someone, probably one of those numerous CIA media assets we've all heard about, got the newspaper to post a washed-out version of the photo so people, at least at some point, wouldn't recognize the spy games that were being played. Not until John A came up with a little cash to buy the "retransmission" photo from AP/Wide World did the full scope of what had occurred come to light. It's speculation, but John suspects Hugh Aynesworth as the guy who got the ball rolling with the wash-out photo.

"Someone"? "Probably"? "Speculation"?

And all that was needed was for someone to come up with a little cash to buy the "retransmission" photo and the whole plot comes tumbling down.

SPY GAMES?

Utter madness...

Right! Thinking "Lee Harvey Oswald" was a SPY is UTTER MADNESS!!!

I believe you!!! Let's review why you are so right about this....

So here's our Russian-speaking kid, who "defects" to Russia traveling with the non-convertible military script he'd saved from his days as a U.S. Marine Communist. On a Saturday, when the U.S. embassy in Moscow simply can't do much business, he unsuccessfully denounces his U.S. citizenship and says he'll tell the Russkies everything he knows, which apparently would include knowledge from his days as a U.S. Marine Communist monitoring top secret U-2 flights in Japan. When Russian authorities are apparently unimpressed by his Communist tendencies, they tell him to go home, forcing our boy to attempt "suicide."

When he eventually does go home, the State Department loans him the money to get here. Instead of being arrested for espionage, our favorite Marine Communist soon moves to New Orleans and starts hanging out with virulent anti-communists, where he expresses his deep love for Cuba and Castro. Before traveling to Dallas to become a self-proclaimed world-famous patsy, he allegedly is allowed by the U.S. to travel to Mexico City, where he could "defect" yet again!

Lee Harvey Oswald a SPY?? HOW CAN YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT?? UTTER MADNESS INDEED!!

[Bernie Laverick]

Don't you get it? This is all a SPY GAME! Someone, probably one of those numerous CIA media assets we've all heard about, got the newspaper to post a washed-out version of the photo so people, at least at some point, wouldn't recognize the spy games that were being played. Not until John A came up with a little cash to buy the "retransmission" photo from AP/Wide World did the full scope of what had occurred come to light. It's speculation, but John suspects Hugh Aynesworth as the guy who got the ball rolling with the wash-out photo.

"Someone"? "Probably"? "Speculation"?

And all that was needed was for someone to come up with a little cash to buy the "retransmission" photo and the whole plot comes tumbling down.

SPY GAMES?

Utter madness...

Right! Thinking "Lee Harvey Oswald" was a SPY is UTTER MADNESS!!!

I believe you!!! Let's review why you are so right about this....

So here's our Russian-speaking kid, who "defects" to Russia traveling with the non-convertible military script he'd saved from his days as a U.S. Marine Communist. On a Saturday, when the U.S. embassy in Moscow simply can't do much business, he unsuccessfully denounces his U.S. citizenship and says he'll tell the Russkies everything he knows, which apparently would include knowledge from his days as a U.S. Marine Communist monitoring top secret U-2 flights in Japan. When Russian authorities are apparently unimpressed by his Communist tendencies, they tell him to go home, forcing our boy to attempt "suicide."

When he eventually does go home, the State Department loans him the money to get here. Instead of being arrested for espionage, our favorite Marine Communist soon moves to New Orleans and starts hanging out with virulent anti-communists, where he expresses his deep love for Cuba and Castro. Before traveling to Dallas to become a self-proclaimed world-famous patsy, he allegedly is allowed by the U.S. to travel to Mexico City, where he could "defect" yet again!

Lee Harvey Oswald a SPY?? HOW CAN YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT?? UTTER MADNESS INDEED!!

"Lee Harvey Oswald a SPY"

Yes I know. Where have I stated otherwise?

Why does questioning your highly implausible explanation for the washed out photos in any way imply doubt on whether Oswald was wittingly or otherwise working for American intelligence?

Straw man cometh and straw man goeth...

Shameful tactics used to support utter madness...

[Paul Trejo]

David, could you give a citation for where Odio originally stated that the young man was introduced as Leon "Oswald". Either during the visit or during the call next day. Thanks...

...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/odio.htm

Mrs. ODIO. They (the FBI) told me they were coming because of the assassination of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father and mother had belonged in Cuba, and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas, and I told him a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about what happened in my house.

Mrs. ODIO. No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told me they were members of JURE, and were trying to let me have them come into the house. When I said no, one of them said, "We are very good friends of your father." This struck me, because I didn't think my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they saw my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really would or that somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the American. He said, "You are working in the underground." And I said, "No, I am sorry to say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don't recall at the time I was at the door things about him. I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this American.

Mrs. ODIO. The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from work, so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on Thursday. I have been trying to establish that. He was trying to get fresh with me that night. He was trying to be too nice, telling me that I was pretty, and he started like that. That is the way he started the conversation. Then he said, "What do you think of the American?" And I said, "I didn't think anything." And he said, "You know our idea is to introduce him to the underground in Cuba, because he is great, he is kind of nuts." This was more or less--I can't repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. He told us we don't have any guts, you Cubans, because President Kennedy should have been assassinated filter the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the freedom of Cuba actually. And I started getting a little upset with the conversation. And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he (Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to see me on their return to Dallas. Then he mentioned something more about Oswald. They called him Leon. He never mentioned the name Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone?

Mrs. ODIO. He never mentioned his last name. He always referred to the American or Leon [i.e. on the telephone]

Good work, David Josephs. BTW, this data can be used to support other theories besides the H&L theory.

IMHO, J. Edgar Hoover would insist on the "Lone Nut" theory of Oswald so forcefully, that this testimony by Silvia Odio had to be attacked like a mad dog.

Regards

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 4, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Right! Thinking "Lee Harvey Oswald" was a SPY is UTTER MADNESS!!!

I believe you!!! Let's review why you are so right about this....

So here's our Russian-speaking kid, who "defects" to Russia traveling with the non-convertible military script he'd saved from his days as a U.S. Marine Communist. On a Saturday, when the U.S. embassy in Moscow simply can't do much business, he unsuccessfully denounces his U.S. citizenship and says he'll tell the Russkies everything he knows, which apparently would include knowledge from his days as a U.S. Marine Communist monitoring top secret U-2 flights in Japan. When Russian authorities are apparently unimpressed by his Communist tendencies, they tell him to go home, forcing our boy to attempt "suicide."

When he eventually does go home, the State Department loans him the money to get here. Instead of being arrested for espionage, our favorite Marine Communist soon moves to New Orleans and starts hanging out with virulent anti-communists, where he expresses his deep love for Cuba and Castro. Before traveling to Dallas to become a self-proclaimed world-famous patsy, he allegedly is allowed by the U.S. to travel to Mexico City, where he could "defect" yet again!

Lee Harvey Oswald a SPY?? HOW CAN YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT?? UTTER MADNESS INDEED!!

Sarcasm aside, Jim, there are other explanations for that data.

IMHO, Lee Harvey Oswald wanted very badly to obtain a full-time position in the CIA, and would perform any duty in order to attain that goal (e.g. to be like Howard Hunt and earn ten times the pitiful income he suffered with.)

He never attained that goal. Still, Oswald was always OF INTEREST to the CIA, the FBI and others. He might have done some free-lance work for them (and probably did, if we can believe Henry Wade). But that is a far cry from actually being a full-time Officer of the CIA or FBI.

As for the photographic evidence, the USSR did play games with photographs. That was shown fairly well by Jack White. Yet the H&L theory mixes the USSR photos with USA photos to concoct a super-modern theory of Spy Games.

The correct portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald, IMHO, was that of a CIA wannabe, who could be easily manipulated by Fake CIA Agents in New Orleans like David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin, Fred Crisman, Tom Beckham, and especially Guy Banister.

David Atlee Phillips did "confess" in his 1988 writing, "The AMLASH Legacy," that he was grooming Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate Fidel Castro. That rings true to me. Not that Oswald was on salary for the CIA, but that Oswald was *hoping* to get a job with the CIA by jumping through DAP's hoops. (Oswald probably thought his sheep-dip under Guy Banister was somehow connected with these DAP hoops.)

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 4, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jim Hargrove]

Hi, Paul,

Yes, thank you, I've heard and read that position before, often presented by people who know every bit or more about this case than I do. But I simply find the explanation unlikely. After all, Occam's razor would suggest that if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck--rather than something else masquerading as one or trying to somehow become one. My opinion is that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald trained for his entire adult (and almost adult) life for his undercover assignment in Russia, and when he failed to impress the Comrades-in-charge there, he was so despondent that he tried, or almost tried, to commit suicide. That's pretty far to go for a wannabe.

I posted this once before, so please forgive the repetition, but here is one of my favorite short passages from Harvey and Lee:

NOTE: In a 1997 interview Robert Webster told JFK researcher and author Dick

Russell that he met Marina Prusakova in Moscow in the summer of 1959 and spoke with

her in English. Webster said that Marina spoke English well, but with a heavy accent.

A year after Webster was sent to Leningrad by the Soviet Government, 400 miles from

Moscow, he met Marina again shortly after he applied for an exit visa so that he could

return to the US. [interview of Robert Webster by Dick Russell at Cape Cod, MA. 1997]

Marina's friend in Dallas, Katya Ford, said that when she asked Marina why Oswald

went to Russia, Marina told her that he worked for the Rand Corporation and helped

set up the American exhibit at the World Trade Exposition in Moscow.[WC Document 5,

p. 259; FBI interview of Katherine Ford by SA James P. Hosty, 11/24/63] Marina had

momentarily confused Harvey Oswald with Robert Webster, the 1st US "defector," whom

she met in Moscow (1959) and again in Leningrad (1960).

It is not a coincidence that both Webster and Oswald "defected" a few months apart in

1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of

possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both

returned to the United States in the Spring of 1962. These US "defectors," acting in perfect

harmony, were both working for the CIA.

--H&L p. 799

Just my take (and JA's).

Edited June 4, 2015 by Jim Hargrove

[Bernie Laverick]

Hi, Paul,

Yes, thank you, I've heard and read that position before, often presented by people who know every bit or more about this case than I do. But I simply find the explanation unlikely. After all, Occam's razor would suggest that if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck--rather than something else masquerading as one or trying to somehow become one. My opinion is that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald trained for his entire adult (and almost adult) life for his undercover assignment in Russia, and when he failed to impress the Comrades-in-charge there, he was so despondent that he tried, or almost tried, to commit suicide. That's pretty far to go for a wannabe.

I posted this once before, so please forgive the repetition, but here is one of my favorite short passages from Harvey and Lee:

NOTE: In a 1997 interview Robert Webster told JFK researcher and author Dick

Russell that he met Marina Prusakova in Moscow in the summer of 1959 and spoke with

her in English. Webster said that Marina spoke English well, but with a heavy accent.

A year after Webster was sent to Leningrad by the Soviet Government, 400 miles from

Moscow, he met Marina again shortly after he applied for an exit visa so that he could

return to the US. [interview of Robert Webster by Dick Russell at Cape Cod, MA. 1997]

Marina's friend in Dallas, Katya Ford, said that when she asked Marina why Oswald

went to Russia, Marina told her that he worked for the Rand Corporation and helped

set up the American exhibit at the World Trade Exposition in Moscow.[WC Document 5,

p. 259; FBI interview of Katherine Ford by SA James P. Hosty, 11/24/63] Marina had

momentarily confused Harvey Oswald with Robert Webster, the 1st US "defector," whom

she met in Moscow (1959) and again in Leningrad (1960).

It is not a coincidence that both Webster and Oswald "defected" a few months apart in

1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of

possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both

returned to the United States in the Spring of 1962. These US "defectors," acting in perfect

harmony, were both working for the CIA.

--H&L p. 799

Just my take (and JA's).

One of my favourite passages...different book, same mission statement...

Psalm 25

Unto thee, O Lord, do I lift up my soul.

O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

Yea, let none that wait on thee be ashamed: let them be ashamed which transgress without cause.

Shew me thy ways, O Lord; teach me thy paths.

Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.

Good and upright is the Lord: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.

The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

For thy name's sake, O Lord, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.

Consider mine enemies; for they are many; and they hate me with cruel hatred.

[Greg Parker]

Hi, Paul,

Yes, thank you, I've heard and read that position before, often presented by people who know every bit or more about this case than I do. But I simply find the explanation unlikely. After all, Occam's razor would suggest that if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck--rather than something else masquerading as one or trying to somehow become one. My opinion is that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald trained for his entire adult (and almost adult) life for his undercover assignment in Russia, and when he failed to impress the Comrades-in-charge there, he was so despondent that he tried, or almost tried, to commit suicide. That's pretty far to go for a wannabe.

I posted this once before, so please forgive the repetition, but here is one of my favorite short passages from Harvey and Lee:

NOTE: In a 1997 interview Robert Webster told JFK researcher and author Dick

Russell that he met Marina Prusakova in Moscow in the summer of 1959 and spoke with

her in English. Webster said that Marina spoke English well, but with a heavy accent.

A year after Webster was sent to Leningrad by the Soviet Government, 400 miles from

Moscow, he met Marina again shortly after he applied for an exit visa so that he could

return to the US. [interview of Robert Webster by Dick Russell at Cape Cod, MA. 1997]

Marina's friend in Dallas, Katya Ford, said that when she asked Marina why Oswald

went to Russia, Marina told her that he worked for the Rand Corporation and helped

set up the American exhibit at the World Trade Exposition in Moscow.[WC Document 5,

p. 259; FBI interview of Katherine Ford by SA James P. Hosty, 11/24/63] Marina had

momentarily confused Harvey Oswald with Robert Webster, the 1st US "defector," whom

she met in Moscow (1959) and again in Leningrad (1960).

It is not a coincidence that both Webster and Oswald "defected" a few months apart in

1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of

possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both

returned to the United States in the Spring of 1962. These US "defectors," acting in perfect

harmony, were both working for the CIA.

--H&L p. 799

Just my take (and JA's).

One of my favourite passages...different book, same mission statement...

Psalm 25

Unto thee, O Lord, do I lift up my soul.

O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

Yea, let none that wait on thee be ashamed: let them be ashamed which transgress without cause.

Shew me thy ways, O Lord; teach me thy paths.

Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.

Good and upright is the Lord: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.

The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

For thy name's sake, O Lord, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.

Consider mine enemies; for they are many; and they hate me with cruel hatred.

Nailed.

(but not quite to a cross )

[Jim Hargrove]

Are you saying that you agree that "Lee Harvey Oswald" or the "Oswald Project" or whatever we should call it was a creature of American Intelligence??!!

My bet is that you clearly don't have permission to say that, even way down there in Australia!

Edited June 5, 2015 by Jim Hargrove

[Bernie Laverick]

"After all, Occam's razor would suggest that if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck--rather than something else masquerading as one or trying to somehow become one..." - Jim Hargrove

Talk about irony. Here is a JCB load to add to the mountain.

Apply the above sentence to those successfully debunking the whole H&L edifice - and you will understand your detractors better.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Bernie Laverick

[Steven Gaal]

"After all, Occam's razor would suggest that if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck--rather than something else masquerading as one or trying to somehow become one..." - Jim Hargrove

Talk about irony. Here is a JCB load to add to the mountain.\

Apply the above sentence to those successfully debunking the whole H&L edifice - and you will understand your detractors better.// LAVERICK

====================================

OCCAMS RAZOR DOES NOT APPLY IN SPY CRAFT . The public never ever really looked into the spy game except via fiction prior to 11/22/63 = The Duck was to appear to be a Duck. However with connecting the dots via government agency spy documents (the public never ever saw before),the duck is really TWO ducks and a masquerade IS exposed. Thus Hargrove is right in the context of a deeper document/witness examination.

gaal quack quack

More on the CIA's James Jesus Angleton. Alberto Gutierrez writes: "Angleton is credited with coining the term "Wilderness of Mirrors " meaning the confusion of the world of intelligence and espionage. He wrote that the "Wilderness of Mirrors "consists of the myriad stratagems, deceptions and all the other devices of disinformation that the Soviet Union and its coordinated intelligence services used to confuse and split the West, producing an ever-fluid landscape where fact and illusion merge. The term was used by David Martin as the tittle of his book about Angleton, Wilderness of Mirrors. (Seeley)

Edited June 5, 2015 by Steven Gaal