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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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18 hours ago, James R Gordon said:

 

Bart,

 

I am making my way through this book. I know the book is called “Prayerman: out of the shadows and into the light.” However it could very easily have been titled “What Sean Murphy said.”

 

I do not know if you are involved in the slagging-off that is currently going on in ROKC and the members there. It says a great deal about the character of those members but more important the extent ROKC and the membership will go to when they notice someone criticising an issue they hold to be important to them. I can understand the abuse that Bill Miller and I have received. But I am appalled that just because Robin Unger commented that he did not believe Prayerman was Oswald a whole page in their current web of abuse directed at EF membership has been devoted to unseemly abuse directed solely at Robin. I say shame on ROKC and shame on those members who participated in this kind of criticism. I do hope you are not a party to this behaviour for although I disagree with you on this issue I have found you to be an honourable person.  

 

And now to respond to the second floor encounter. It has become clear to me that this is a critical issue - and one the supporters of this theory cannot allow to stand. 

 

There is a very telling moment in Chapter 2. Stan quotes Sean Murphy reflecting that if the encounter with Baker took place at the second floor lunchroom then Prayerman is unlikely to be Oswald. Throughout the book it becomes very clear that the second floor lunchroom meeting becomes a crucial part of the narrative. If it can be questioned and undermined then it will support Prayerman being Oswald and - if it cannot be questioned - the second floor meeting will destroy the idea that Prayerman is Oswald.

 

Aware of the damage if this meeting could be established as factual Sean muses that even if Oswald/Prayerman is in his position outside and sees Baker rushing into the building there was still time for him to leave his position rush upstairs to the second floor grab a Coke and be there in time for the meeting. This scenario goes nowhere because it is quickly realised just how ridiculous it is. 

 

However - ridiculous though this idea is - it underlined just how critical the second floor meeting is and how if not dealt with it could explode the idea that Prayerman was Oswald.

 

And this has raised a thought. Throughout the book we are told this person lied, this did not happen, this testimony is false. I am now wondering whether this is all gamesmanship to protect Oswald being Prayerman rather than the fruits of research.

James,

I do not think you are giving this book a fair treat, almost every remark you have posted on Stan Dane's book so far reeks of negativity. The book is a summarisation of this thread of which Sean Murphy put forward the large majority of the material. 

Regarding the 2nd floor lunch room encounter, you are right it is an integral part to support Prayer Man. What this thread does not fully expose is how messed up the actual story is.

When I did the interactive presentation I started with the movies and used the 2FLRE as the third chapter. It has now become its opener, due to the abundance of the material I managed to grab together and put into the first essay "Anatomy Of A 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter". The amount of quoted material inside that essay utterly destroys the fakery of the 2FLRE. This essay is the most complete collection of works available regarding this matter. And a considerable update will be published in about two weeks.

It also exposes the lies by Truly, Reid, Baker, Johnson, Fritz, Bookhout etc.

Add on the lies by Shellley and Lovelady.

Here's the challenge for anyone out there: show me they did not lie. And that those so called 'developments' in their witness testimonies are truthful compared to their first statements.

Game on?

HNY!

 

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58 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Either that or Shelley and Lovelady were coached what to say regarding this event, and the coaching -- which served to debunk Victoria Adam's damaging testimony -- accidentally contradicted the official Baker story.

I thought you were another one that believed the powers that be got to the witnesses .... seems if you truly believe that, then the first day statement would be the accurate one which seems to support the Darnell film.

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21 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

James,

I do not think you are giving this book a fair treat, almost every remark you have posted on Stan Dane's book so far reeks of negativity. The book is a summarisation of this thread of which Sean Murphy put forward the large majority of the material. 

Regarding the 2nd floor lunch room encounter, you are right it is an integral part to support Prayer Man. What this thread does not fully expose is how messed up the actual story is.

When I did the interactive presentation I started with the movies and used the 2FLRE as the third chapter. It has now become its opener, due to the abundance of the material I managed to grab together and put into the first essay "Anatomy Of A 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter". The amount of quoted material inside that essay utterly destroys the fakery of the 2FLRE. This essay is the most complete collection of works available regarding this matter. And a considerable update will be published in about two weeks.

It also exposes the lies by Truly, Reid, Baker, Johnson, Fritz, Bookhout etc.

Add on the lies by Shellley and Lovelady.

Here's the challenge for anyone out there: show me they did not lie. And that those so called 'developments' in their witness testimonies are truthful compared to their first statements.

Game on?

HNY!

 

To answer the challenge, Bart, there is one scenario that would alleviate Shelley's and Lovelady's lies, at least a bit anyways.

If the lady ID'ed as Gloria Calvery really was Calvery, she did not immediately return to the TSBD steps but, rather, appears to have loitered on the grass near the Stemmons sign for several minutes; confirmed by film footage. If she did not return to the steps for 3-4 minutes, and Baker did not enter the TSBD immediately after crossing the Elm St. extension, is it possible Lovelady and Shelley really were 25 steps down the Elm St, extension when they looked back and saw Truly and Baker entering the TSBD?

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As seen in Couch, Shelley and Lovelady take no notice of Baker's sprint whatsoever. Both of them were full of it when they mentioned looking back and seeing Baker. 

Another falsehood by them

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Hi Bart

I know you are a firm believer in Shelley and Lovelady being captured on film walking down the Elm St. extension together toward the rail yard. I mean no malice toward people who believe this but, I am just not convinced that we are seeing Shelley and Lovelady, and am going all out to either prove or disprove this. To that end, I have observed the man in the film ID'ed as Shelley is plainly an inch or two taller than the Lovelady figure. As we know Lovelady stood 5'8" tall, I have set about attempting to determine how tall Shelley was in 1963.

The only info I have managed to find is a photo of Shelley as an ROTC lieutenant in his senior year in high school. Standing beside Shelley in the photo is another ROTC lieutenant who towers over Shelley by about a foot. For Shelley to be 5'9", this other officer would have to be 6'9"l very tall for 1945.

I have managed to find the mailing address for a man I believe to be Shelley's son, plus the address for a journalist who interviewed Shelley in the early 70's. Hopefully, one of these two will be able to tell me if Shelley was short or tall.

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5 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Here's the challenge for anyone out there: show me they did not lie. And that those so called 'developments' in their witness testimonies are truthful compared to their first statements.

Like the saying goes "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."  I think some folks see everything as a lie while others see it as an error. For instance, I didn't say you lied in your video about the Wiegman family being seen laying on the ground following the shooting - I said it was a misstatement, did I not.

Which Bill Shelley told the truth - is it the Bill Shelley who said the shots sounded like they came from the west which goes against Oswald shooting from the 6th floor and met Calvery before heading across the street ............

Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

Then Shelley said this occurred after his meeting with Calvery:

Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Now pay attention to the next questions and answers as this is where the confusion started as I am certain that Shelley didn't mean to imply that after hearing Calvery say the President was shot that Bill Shelley was going to stay there and watch the rest of the parade.

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

There is no doubt that there wasn't much of a meeting of the minds in those last six exchanges. And again Shelley said the meeting with Calvery took place before making it to the Island/Divider.

Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,
Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

And lastly .....

Mr. BALL - Did you stay there any length of time?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not very long.
Mr. BALL - How long would you say?
Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you trot or run back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less.
Mr. BALL - Then you went into the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

If one does the math - it becomes clear that the entire trip from the TSBD to the RR tracks - and back to the TSBD took about 3 minutes or so. That the themse was always that the meeting with Calvery came before touring the Plaza. That because of the poor questioning being given by the Commission that the meeting with Calvery or seeing Truly and Baker enter the building was born in my view.

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21 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Hi Bart

I know you are a firm believer in Shelley and Lovelady being captured on film walking down the Elm St. extension together toward the rail yard. I mean no malice toward people who believe this but, I am just not convinced that we are seeing Shelley and Lovelady, and am going all out to either prove or disprove this. To that end, I have observed the man in the film ID'ed as Shelley is plainly an inch or two taller than the Lovelady figure. As we know Lovelady stood 5'8" tall, I have set about attempting to determine how tall Shelley was in 1963.

The only info I have managed to find is a photo of Shelley as an ROTC lieutenant in his senior year in high school. Standing beside Shelley in the photo is another ROTC lieutenant who towers over Shelley by about a foot. For Shelley to be 5'9", this other officer would have to be 6'9"l very tall for 1945.

I have managed to find the mailing address for a man I believe to be Shelley's son, plus the address for a journalist who interviewed Shelley in the early 70's. Hopefully, one of these two will be able to tell me if Shelley was short or tall.

Bob,

as per their statements and others they left immediately.

Wiegman backs this up

Couch backs this up

You think Shelley's height is going to make one iota of difference?

You are looking at wide angle shot 16 mm film, a small detail of it. One inch taller? Two inches taller?

Same area as Prayer Man's height.

Not enough detail available.

But I stick with the statements and footage for now.

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31 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

As seen in Couch, Shelley and Lovelady take no notice of Baker's sprint whatsoever. Both of them were full of it when they mentioned looking back and seeing Baker. 

Another falsehood by them

Your version seems a little twisted in my view. I don't think you purposely told a falsehood, but rather just simply erred about what was said. I believe that when they looked back from the Island - Baker and Truly were seen at the top of the steps and going into the building. Both Shelley and Lovelady are no longer visible on Darnell's film and Darnell didn't film the Officer ascending the the steps.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

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45 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

 

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Either that or Shelley and Lovelady were coached what to say regarding this event, and the coaching -- which served to debunk Victoria Adam's damaging testimony -- accidentally contradicted the official Baker story.

I thought you were another one that believed the powers that be got to the witnesses .... seems if you truly believe that, then the first day statement would be the accurate one which seems to support the Darnell film.

Jeez Bill, just because I believe there was some intimidation involved doesn't mean I believe that every authority intimidated every witness. That should go without saying.

As for first-day statements, I do generally trust them over later ones. Let's see if they support the Darnell film:

Lovelady:

"After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building."

Well, that doesn't contradict what we see in Darnell.


Shelley:

"I couldn't tell where the shots were coimg from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the president has been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened."

Again, doesn't contradict what we see in the film.


I don't know what that exercise accomplished.

 

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18 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Your version seems a little twisted in my view. I don't think you purposely told a falsehood, but rather just simply erred about what was said. I believe that when they looked back from the Island - Baker and Truly were seen at the top of the steps and going into the building. Both Shelley and Lovelady are no longer visible on Darnell's film and Darnell didn't film the Officer ascending the the steps.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

You are clutching BIG time.

If Shelley stayed on the steps for 3-4 mins

How on earth can he see Truly and Baker go into the building from the island in Darnell?

You have any idea how wrong you are?!

 

Who saw Baker go in?

Read in my essay and you will see that the other fibber Pauline Sanders is the only one who claims to have seen so.

While Frazier and Molina did not see anyone go in.

Sanders who is nowhere to be seen in Darnell compared to Frazier and Molina on the top of the steps.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bart Kamp
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44 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Hi Bart

I know you are a firm believer in Shelley and Lovelady being captured on film walking down the Elm St. extension together toward the rail yard. I mean no malice toward people who believe this but, I am just not convinced that we are seeing Shelley and Lovelady, and am going all out to either prove or disprove this. To that end, I have observed the man in the film ID'ed as Shelley is plainly an inch or two taller than the Lovelady figure. As we know Lovelady stood 5'8" tall, I have set about attempting to determine how tall Shelley was in 1963.

The only info I have managed to find is a photo of Shelley as an ROTC lieutenant in his senior year in high school. Standing beside Shelley in the photo is another ROTC lieutenant who towers over Shelley by about a foot. For Shelley to be 5'9", this other officer would have to be 6'9"l very tall for 1945.

I have managed to find the mailing address for a man I believe to be Shelley's son, plus the address for a journalist who interviewed Shelley in the early 70's. Hopefully, one of these two will be able to tell me if Shelley was short or tall.

Another thing that might hurt the Shelley/Lovelady-walk-down-Elm-ext. scenario is the guy standing in Lovelady's position on the steps who is bending over, talking to a person on a lower step. That might be Lovelady. This occurs while Baker is crossing the extension.

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