Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[William Kelly]

Is that you, Lee?

I hesitate to say it but it's beginning to look more like a Betty Lee to me. Is that a large purse in his/her hands?

Listening to Buell Wesley Frazier's loyal protestations over the years of incredulity at the idea of Oswald's being the shooter, I cannot shake the suspicion that he saw his friend Oswald on the steps and that this fact was part of the reason he was subjected to such a gruelling interrogation regime the night of the assassination. It's as though he's been doing displaced penance ever since. Under the judicious friendly ministration of intrepidly unbiased JFK researcher Dave 'Oswald Time Trial' Perry.

Funny in this light that BWF's WC description of Bill Shelley's location at the time of the shooting--

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

--reads as a damn near perfect description of where we know Prayer Man was at that time (and where Shelley himself could not have been).

Frazier is still alive, why can't we show him these photos and films and ask him where he is standing and who is the "Prayer Man"?

[Robin Unger]

quote:

Now this bottom film of the cars turning the corner, who is the cameraman? thanks

Its the Wiegman film Bill

and i think the film showing Baker and Truly inside the TSBD may be Aleya

Edited August 28, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Robert Prudhomme]

For Oswald to be Prayer Man,

and

for the second-floor lunchroom incident to have really happened as described by Baker and Truly to the WC,

there is only one realistic scenario available....

Why would the Oswald of this scenario want to keep tabs on Baker & Truly's progress? The answer hardly needs spelling out.

Since I am the class dunce,

who naively believes in the complete innocence of Prayer Man Lee

you will have to spell it out for me.

Ray,

I think Sean has described one reasonable scenario: LHO saw Baker and Truly run by and goes to the 2nd floor to check their progress.

I disagree with Sean that there is only one realistic scenario.

As I described a few posts above there is at least one other possible scenario. Roughly during the same time interval that Oswald is seen upstairs near the lunchroom/ or by Reid's desk, Officer Mooney encounters the two unidentified men coming down the stairs to the 2nd floor. There are a couple possibilities here:

1. Oswald is supposed to rendevous with these two men. Use your imagination to think of a reason why.

2. Oswald is freaked out by what he witnessed out on the steps and is seeking out these two men to find out what the hell happened up there.

But for either #1 or #2, Lee would have to have known in advance that something was going on.

I am not claiming that I believe these are anything more than possibilites, at least for now.

Deputy Sheriff Mooney testified to the WC that he believed the two men coming down the stairs were also plainclothes deputy sheriffs. He does not identify who they were, nor does he say whether he asked them for credentials.

Were these two men ever identified?

[Robin Unger]

My best guess, is that Frazier was Prayer man

quote:

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

--reads as a damn near perfect description of where we know Prayer Man was at that time (and where Shelley himself could not have been).

Edited August 28, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Michael Griffin]

Can anyone identify the person who took this film, when it was taken, where in it is- what floor? and who are the guys in suits and hats that Baker and Truly are talking to?

Bill,

Great questions……..wish I could help answer them, but hopefully someone else here can. Your questions, however, bring to mind another question about Officer Baker at DPD Headquarters.

Below is Officer Baker’s WC testimony about seeing LHO at police headquarters:

Representative BOGGS -Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit.

Representative BOGGS -After he had been arrested?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

…………….

Mr. DULLES - I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES - Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations.

Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Mr. DULLES - You saw him for a moment at that time?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

<End Quote>

I am very intrigued as to whether Officer Baker laid eyes upon LHO at DPD HQ before, during, or after giving his affidavit. When it comes to determining the timing of that, I find Officer Baker’s WC testimony to be very confusing. It seems as if Baker is saying that those questioning Oswald were physically blocking Baker’s exit from a small office after he gave his affidavit, but did Officer Baker first spot the Oswald entourage before he had completed his affidavit?

I suggest that this is a crucial question for the following reason: If Officer Baker had laid eyes upon the now suspect LHO at DPD HQ before or during the giving of his affidavit, then I find it almost impossible to believe that Officer Baker would not have mentioned the 2nd floor lunch room encounter in that affidavit if it had actually occurred.

I am hoping that some other forum member can shed some light on the timing of the DPD HQ sighting vs. the affidavit.

Sean,

Thank you for your many excellent contributions to this fascinating thread. In a methodical, step by step manner, you have cogently presented your case for Prayer Man being LHO. Great work, and please carry on!

Edited August 28, 2013 by Michael Griffin

[William Kelly]

For Oswald to be Prayer Man,

and

for the second-floor lunchroom incident to have really happened as described by Baker and Truly to the WC,

there is only one realistic scenario available.

• Oswald stands in the front entrance, not showing the slightest curiosity about what's just happened on the street--that's because he's been expecting it

BK: What is he expecting? Not the assassination. How do you know what he's expecting?

• He is however taken by surprise by Baker's sudden and extraordinarily early dash into the building

BK: Why is Baker's sudden and early dash into the building extraordinary, and why would "Prayer Man" be taken by surprise if he just saw the assassination and resulting commotion?

• He follows him and Truly upstairs by taking the front stairs and crossing the second floor

BK: Agreed. If "Prayer Man" is Oswald or if Oswald is anywhere on the first floor, he must have ascended the front stairs and made his way through the empty office that he returns through a minute later. But he wasn't following Baker and Truly and doesn't know where they are going.

• He looks through the door window at Truly crossing the landing

BK: How do you know that? Why would he do that? If he did that I think he did a handstand first and then flipped his fingers in front of his nose at Truly.

• He also sees Baker come onto the landing, but is startled when Baker notices him back.

BK: According to Baker he didn't see a face in the window, he saw the blur of a man walking past and when Baker approached the door he saw the man walking away him through the window.

• Not wishing to draw attention to himself, he spins around and starts walking into the lunchroom.

BK: How do you know he didn't wish to draw attention to himself and spins around? He was walking to the lunchroom in the first place.

• Et cetera.

Why would the Oswald of this scenario want to keep tabs on Baker & Truly's progress? The answer hardly needs spelling out.

BK: How do you know Oswald was keeping tabs on Baker and Truly? I don't know he did and see no evidence of it.

Without speculating on scenarios and motives, I think the most rational scenario is the one that we put together from what we know.

1) "Prayer Man" is standing at the top of the steps to the side of the front and is there in the film of Baker running towards the steps. We don't have proof that Baker ran past this guy but we can suspect it.

2) "Prayer Man" is dressed (like Oswald and Frazer) in a dark, long sleeved collared shirt with t-shirt underneath and short hair.

3) Although not mentioned in the published literature "Prayer Man" appears to be a TSBD employee, though 15 of the 19 male employees are accounted for elsewhere, and it could possibly be Oswald.

4) From the timing of the other films we can estimate the time being approximately 12:30.30 and the man may have been there at the time of the assassination, and when Baker and Truly enter the building.

5) There is some speculation on the part of researchers that an interaction takes place between "Prayer Man" and Baker an Truly as they enter the building, but there is no evidence of this or a reason for it to happen.

6) Baker and Truly go the rear of the building, find the service elevators on the fifth floor and begin to ascend the steps, while "Prayer Man," if he is Oswald, or Oswald where ever he is, goes to the second floor via the front steps and either passing through the empty office - or getting change from Mrs. Hine, then goes to the second floor lunchroom where he in seen by Baker through the closed lunchroom door window and is stopped by Baker. Baker says that Oswald is not out of breath or hyper or nervous in any way, just surprised at having a .38 stuck in his belly. Truly, ahead of Baker, didn't see Oswald go through the door, as he would had Oswald done so, and Truly gives Oswald a pass as an employee, not a suspect. Truly later says he not only didn't see Oswald, but didn't know Baker saw Oswald through the window of the door until days later.

7) Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps to the third floor, fourth floor - where Baker reported he stopped a man in a brown coat, which some suspect to be the man in the Brown Sports Coat seen on the sixth floor next to the man in white shirt with the rifle by people on the street, or as Baker later said, it was a mistake and he was referring to the second floor lunchroom incident with Oswald.

8) Meanwhile Oswald bought his coke and walked out the south door to the lunchroom that he had entered a minute earlier, and crosses paths with Mrs. Reid, who notices Oswald - though she didn't know his name at the time - wearing a white t-shirt and had a full coke in his right hand. She tells him the president was shot and he mumbles something she didn't hear and wasn't interested. She described Oswald as being "cool and calm and stoic" and not in a hurry. Mrs. Reid, who had been standing next to Truly and Mr. Campbell outside on the street, later retraced her steps after the assassination from the street to her office desk on the second floor where she crossed paths with Oswald and they concluded it took 2 minutes - 120 seconds.

9) Mr. Campbell entered the building through the front door (Shelly ran around the back and reentered the rear/side door), and Campbell is quoted in a next day newspaper as saying he saw Oswald standing by the storage area next to the front steps, which he must have just descended from the second floor.

10) We then see in the third, yet unidentified film, a lot of cops outside the front door of the TSBD and a man - "College Boy" with long sleeved dark shirt with t-shirt underneath, who may or may not be Oswald or "Prayer Man," standing at the top of the steps and then descending and walking east - the action and direction that the Warren Report says Oswald took.

That's a radical alternate "non-conspiracy" scenario as to what happened, and I think its closer to the truth than the official story.

[Richard Hocking]

For Oswald to be Prayer Man,

and

for the second-floor lunchroom incident to have really happened as described by Baker and Truly to the WC,

there is only one realistic scenario available....

Why would the Oswald of this scenario want to keep tabs on Baker & Truly's progress? The answer hardly needs spelling out.

Since I am the class dunce,

who naively believes in the complete innocence of Prayer Man Lee

you will have to spell it out for me.

Ray,

I think Sean has described one reasonable scenario: LHO saw Baker and Truly run by and goes to the 2nd floor to check their progress.

I disagree with Sean that there is only one realistic scenario.

As I described a few posts above there is at least one other possible scenario. Roughly during the same time interval that Oswald is seen upstairs near the lunchroom/ or by Reid's desk, Officer Mooney encounters the two unidentified men coming down the stairs to the 2nd floor. There are a couple possibilities here:

1. Oswald is supposed to rendevous with these two men. Use your imagination to think of a reason why.

2. Oswald is freaked out by what he witnessed out on the steps and is seeking out these two men to find out what the hell happened up there.

But for either #1 or #2, Lee would have to have known in advance that something was going on.

I am not claiming that I believe these are anything more than possibilites, at least for now.

Deputy Sheriff Mooney testified to the WC that he believed the two men coming down the stairs were also plainclothes deputy sheriffs. He does not identify who they were, nor does he say whether he asked them for credentials.

Were these two men ever identified?

No.

[Sean Murphy]

I don't know if this of help, but i stabled the short Darnell sequence myself, taking care of the rotation in the frames.

This is a GIF with all frames incl all heavy blur frames:

Martin, I don't know where we'd be without you and Robin (and Gerda, if only she'd report back for duty...).

Is that a jerk in Prayer Man's arm??

While you're there--would you know how one might go about evaluating and if necessary correcting the Darnell frames for aspect-ratio distortion?

[Sean Murphy]

Can anyone identify the person who took this film, when it was taken, where in it is- what floor? and who are the guys in suits and hats that Baker and Truly are talking to?

Bill, the film was taken by Roy Cooper 11/22. It shows the rear of the first floor. The other men have not been identified. Heartbreakingly, there's no audio!

(Gary Mack gave me this information a few years back.)

[Sean Murphy]

Deputy Sheriff Mooney testified to the WC that he believed the two men coming down the stairs were also plainclothes deputy sheriffs. He does not identify who they were, nor does he say whether he asked them for credentials.

Were these two men ever identified?

No, Robert, they haven't, and their presence coming down the stairs a few minutes after the shooting makes a nonsense of the WC-defender idea that it would have been impossible for a stranger or strangers to exit the building from the sixth floor undetected or unchallenged.

[Sean Murphy]

My best guess, is that Frazier was Prayer man

quote:

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

--reads as a damn near perfect description of where we know Prayer Man was at that time (and where Shelley himself could not have been).

Robin,

Frazier would be the obvious candidate but I honestly don't see how it can be him.

• Prayer Man's upper garment looks far too light to be BWF's dark jacket
• BWF's comment that Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also makes it clear that Lovelady was closer to the wall than BWF himself--whereas Prayer Man is right over by the wall and is making no attempt to improve his already lousy view
• BWF testified that his view of the Presidential limousine went out of view as it went further down Elm St. because of all the spectators lining the street; Prayer Man cannot see any of that (cf Lovelady, who is east of Prayer Man and hence has a better view than him yet still has to move to his left and lean over just to follow the progress of the limousine)
• Prayer Man is clearly holding something; BWF gives no indication that he was holding anything (he went inside shortly afterwards to pick up and eat his lunch)

Edited August 28, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Sean Murphy]

Bill,

Great questions……..wish I could help answer them, but hopefully someone else here can. Your questions, however, bring to mind another question about Officer Baker at DPD Headquarters.

Below is Officer Baker’s WC testimony about seeing LHO at police headquarters:

Representative BOGGS -Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit.

Representative BOGGS -After he had been arrested?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

…………….

Mr. DULLES - I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES - Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations.

Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Mr. DULLES - You saw him for a moment at that time?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

<End Quote>

I am very intrigued as to whether Officer Baker laid eyes upon LHO at DPD HQ before, during, or after giving his affidavit. When it comes to determining the timing of that, I find Officer Baker’s WC testimony to be very confusing. It seems as if Baker is saying that those questioning Oswald were physically blocking Baker’s exit from a small office after he gave his affidavit, but did Officer Baker first spot the Oswald entourage before he had completed his affidavit?

I suggest that this is a crucial question for the following reason: If Officer Baker had laid eyes upon the now suspect LHO at DPD HQ before or during the giving of his affidavit, then I find it almost impossible to believe that Officer Baker would not have mentioned the 2nd floor lunch room encounter in that affidavit if it had actually occurred.

I am hoping that some other forum member can shed some light on the timing of the DPD HQ sighting vs. the affidavit.

Sean,

Thank you for your many excellent contributions to this fascinating thread. In a methodical, step by step manner, you have cogently presented your case for Prayer Man being LHO. Great work, and please carry on!

Hi Michael,

That's very nice of you to say so, appreciate it.

In answer to your question--

Yes, Baker definitely did lay eyes on Oswald as he was giving his affidavit.

We know this not just from his own WC testimony but from Marvin Johnson's report which covers, amongst other things, Baker's giving of his affidavit:

Note Johnson's recollection that Baker tended to place the encounter with the still unnamed 'man' on the fourth floor.

The word 'later' in Johnson's report obviously caused some anxiety, because he added a curiously placed coda to his report (click to enlarge):

If Baker really did say there and then, 'That's the man I saw on the fourth floor', then it's passing strange that his affidavit fails to register the identification--it could have been so easily interpolated by hand by Johnson there and then--or that Baker didn't at least go on to formally identify Oswald in a lineup.

[Sean Murphy]

Without speculating on scenarios and motives, I think the most rational scenario is the one that we put together from what we know.

1) "Prayer Man" is standing at the top of the steps to the side of the front and is there in the film of Baker running towards the steps. We don't have proof that Baker ran past this guy but we can suspect it.

2) "Prayer Man" is dressed (like Oswald and Frazer) in a dark, long sleeved collared shirt with t-shirt underneath and short hair.

3) Although not mentioned in the published literature "Prayer Man" appears to be a TSBD employee, though 15 of the 19 male employees are accounted for elsewhere, and it could possibly be Oswald.

4) From the timing of the other films we can estimate the time being approximately 12:30.30 and the man may have been there at the time of the assassination, and when Baker and Truly enter the building.

5) There is some speculation on the part of researchers that an interaction takes place between "Prayer Man" and Baker an Truly as they enter the building, but there is no evidence of this or a reason for it to happen.

6) Baker and Truly go the rear of the building, find the service elevators on the fifth floor and begin to ascend the steps, while "Prayer Man," if he is Oswald, or Oswald where ever he is, goes to the second floor via the front steps and either passing through the empty office - or getting change from Mrs. Hine, then goes to the second floor lunchroom where he in seen by Baker through the closed lunchroom door window and is stopped by Baker. Baker says that Oswald is not out of breath or hyper or nervous in any way, just surprised at having a .38 stuck in his belly. Truly, ahead of Baker, didn't see Oswald go through the door, as he would had Oswald done so, and Truly gives Oswald a pass as an employee, not a suspect. Truly later says he not only didn't see Oswald, but didn't know Baker saw Oswald through the window of the door until days later.

7) Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps to the third floor, fourth floor - where Baker reported he stopped a man in a brown coat, which some suspect to be the man in the Brown Sports Coat seen on the sixth floor next to the man in white shirt with the rifle by people on the street, or as Baker later said, it was a mistake and he was referring to the second floor lunchroom incident with Oswald.

8) Meanwhile Oswald bought his coke and walked out the south door to the lunchroom that he had entered a minute earlier, and crosses paths with Mrs. Reid, who notices Oswald - though she didn't know his name at the time - wearing a white t-shirt and had a full coke in his right hand. She tells him the president was shot and he mumbles something she didn't hear and wasn't interested. She described Oswald as being "cool and calm and stoic" and not in a hurry. Mrs. Reid, who had been standing next to Truly and Mr. Campbell outside on the street, later retraced her steps after the assassination from the street to her office desk on the second floor where she crossed paths with Oswald and they concluded it took 2 minutes - 120 seconds.

9) Mr. Campbell entered the building through the front door (Shelly ran around the back and reentered the rear/side door), and Campbell is quoted in a next day newspaper as saying he saw Oswald standing by the storage area next to the front steps, which he must have just descended from the second floor.

10) We then see in the third, yet unidentified film, a lot of cops outside the front door of the TSBD and a man - "College Boy" with long sleeved dark shirt with t-shirt underneath, who may or may not be Oswald or "Prayer Man," standing at the top of the steps and then descending and walking east - the action and direction that the Warren Report says Oswald took.

That's a radical alternate "non-conspiracy" scenario as to what happened, and I think its closer to the truth than the official story.

Bill,

Prayer Man was definitely on the steps during the assassination: the Wiegman frames in which he appears start just seconds before the headshot.

**

Re. point #6:

BK: while "Prayer Man," if he is Oswald, or Oswald where ever he is, goes to the second floor via the front steps and either passing through the empty office - or getting change from Mrs. Hine, then goes to the second floor lunchroom where he in seen by Baker through the closed lunchroom door window and is stopped by Baker.

SM: This still does not answer the simple question: why on earth would a man who has just heard and seen the pandemonium outside suddenly want to hurry immediately upstairs to buy a coke?

This question looms even larger when Oswald's calm demeanour is stressed, for that alleged fact, far from helping the case for Oswald's defence, only makes his behaviour seem all the more weird.

Are we seriously to believe that Oswald's reaction to the chaos and horror outside would have been one of

a ) sudden thirst

and

b ) utter calmness bordering on serene indifference?

Was Oswald a radically dissociated personality?

**

Re. point #10:

That other film is irrelevant to the Prayer Man/Oswald question, because it was taken quite a few minutes later--after the Hughes & Martin footage showing the congested front entrance. We know this because the police vehicles have not yet arrived and parked outside the TSBD when Hughes & Martin are filming.

**

I'm sorry to belabour the point, but it's not going to go away:

To invest simultaneously in the notion that Oswald could be Prayer Man and in the notion that the second-floor lunchroom incident happened just as Baker and Truly described to the WC is to portray Oswald's immediate reaction to the shooting as utterly bizarre, if not downright suspicious.

Do you really want to go down that road?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

That's a radical alternate "non-conspiracy" scenario as to what happened, and I think its closer to the truth than the official story.

And is closer to the truth than even David Von Pein's version.

Or the version of anyone from the thundering herd of Oswald accusers

up to now.

Edited August 29, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

• BWF ... went inside shortly afterwards to pick up and eat his lunch)

Which makes him another sociopath

like all the other employees

who went back to their workplace,

right Sean?

So tell us Sean,

in your infinite wisdom,

did Frazier know when he went back inside

to eat lunch,

that shots were fired

seemingly from the building

where he worked?

Or was he just confused,

like Prayer Man Lee?

Edited August 29, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll