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look at these clowns fondling the evidence...

i know it was 1963 and in nut country, but Perry Mason had been on tee vee how long at this point?

and there is the four foot bag again...

I've always wondered what is keeping the bag upright in that photo.

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Clint Bradford has a web page showing the chronology of photos/videos taken in Dealey Plaza.

http://www.jfk-info.com/photos1.htm

On this site, he time-stamps the Allen photos of the TSBD entrance (referenced above) as being shot around 12:42 to 12:44 pm.

The Dr. Pepper bottle (and chicken bag) on the 5th/6th floor of the TSBD have not been discovered at that time. They are discovered closer to 1 o'clock.

Can anyone corroborate Bradford, or provide more sources for the time of William Allen's photos?

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look at these clowns fondling the evidence...

i know it was 1963 and in nut country, but Perry Mason had been on tee vee how long at this point?

and there is the four foot bag again...

I've always wondered what is keeping the bag upright in that photo.

Curtain rods!

--Tommy :sun

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Earlier, Robin Unger posted the photos of Detectives Montgomery and Johnson bringing the brown paper bag and the Dr. Pepper bottle, allegedly found near the Sniper's Lair, out of the TSBD.

Going through the testimony of Montgomery and Johnson clarifies the timing question. They arrived at the TSBD at, or just before 1 pm. Both men then went to the 6th floor where they received instructions from Fritz to guard the area around the SE window to make sure no one disturbed the scene, including the bag and the Dr. Pepper bottle. They were on the 6th floor when the rifle was found (1:22 pm). It is safe to say the very earliest they could have left the building is 1:25 pm.

The William Allen photos showing the bottle on the top step in the NW corner of the entrance were taken about or a few minutes before 12:45.

So the bottle being removed by Detective Johnson is not the same bottle we see in the corner of the entrance.

General info on Heights of Coke and Dr. Pepper bottles in 1963:

Coke Bottle:

6.5 ounce - Height 7.75"

10 ounce - Height 9.5"

12 ounce - Height 9.5"

16 ounce - Height 11.75"

Dr. Pepper Bottle:

6.5 ounce - Height 8.1"

8 ounce - Height 7.5"

10 ounce - Height 9.6"

12 ounce - Height 9.25" up to 9.6"

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I've always wondered what is keeping the bag upright in that photo.

Curtain rods!

Tommy and Blair - doesn't he seem to be holding it with one hand at the bottom? That would be a difficult balancing act if it were a rifle inside. Not impossible - I think the Carcano (even though that weapon was given it's very own perp walk later) weighed 7 lbs. 7 oz. - length 3 ft 4 in. I suppose it could be the Mauser puportedly also found there. If it was a second weapon that would imply that at that very early hour in the investigation they were already trying to cover up the presence of a second weapon. It's very strange.

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Mr. BALL. That was your habit, carrying your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that day, on November 22d, how did you carry your lunch from home to work?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8--paper bag.
Mr. BALL. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Small bag?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Like you get in the grocery store?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.
Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.
Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.
Mr. BALL. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.
Mr. BALL. Anything else?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I believe that was all.
Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.
Mr. McCLOY. What floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.
Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Bonnie_Ray_Williams.jpg

fritos-original.gif

Edited by Robin Unger
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So what happened to the Frito bag?

Studebaker mentions a frito mixed in with the chicken bones in the brown sack.

Mr. Ball.

Any chicken bones in any other place?

Mr. Studebaker.

No.

Mr. Ball.

None outside the sack?

Mr. Studebaker.

No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put right back in. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too.

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look at these clowns fondling the evidence...

i know it was 1963 and in nut country, but Perry Mason had been on tee vee how long at this point?

and there is the four foot bag again...

I've always wondered what is keeping the bag upright in that photo.

Curtain rods!

--Tommy :sun

Tommy and Robert,

Another Allen photo with the top of the bag folded over.

TSBDBigBagBottle_zps67420a47.jpg

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Richard

This cop appears to be holding a Dr Pepper bottle.

He may have left it on the step ?

Click on the image to view FULL SIZE

metapth184797_xl_1989_100_0024_0013%281%

Robin, it definitely adds one more variable.

If there is any way to sequence the Allen photo's, that could provide an answer.

Does the bottle in his hand look empty to you?

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