Question for Doug Caddy

[Douglas Caddy]

I am only repeating what I was told, which is that there is a secreted film of the assassination that shows Hunt as the spotter and Sturgis as one of the shooters. If such a film were made, undoubtedly an advanced-type camera provided by an intelligence agency was used that would have made identification of key players easy.

Sturgis' written confession to Cardinal Cooke in 1971 included among the many crimes he had committed being one of the shooters of JFK. Marita Lorenz testified that she saw Hunt the night before the assassination in a safe house in Dallas distributing money to some of those involved in the planned assassination.

As far as Hunt being caught up in Watergate, both he and James McCord voted to call off going into the Democratic National Committee after the building’s guard found the tape on the garage door and removed it. They were overridden by Gordon Liddy, who was the team leader and who apparently felt he could not withstand the expected dressing down by Jeb Magruder had the operation been called off.

Robert Merritt claims that he told the arresting officer, Carl Shoffler, two weeks in advance of the break-in of the plan to do so on June 17, 1972. Merritt’s tip came from his own informant source who heard it in a telephone conversation that he surreptitiously listened to.

Here is an excerpt from James Hougan’s invaluable account of Watergate, Secret Agenda, published in 1984:

Adding to the suspicions surrounding Shoffler is the fact that he is no ordinary cop. Prior to joining the police department in Washington, he had served for years at the Vint Hill Farm Station in Virginia. This is one of NSA’s most important domestic “listening posts.” Staffed by personnel assigned to the Army Security Agency (ASA), Vint Hill Farm is thought to be responsible for intercepting communications traffic emanating from Washington’s Embassy Row. By itself, this proves nothing, but it is ironic that the police officer responsible for making the most important IOC (Interception of Communications) bust in American history should himself have worked in the same area only a few years before.

Shoffler’s work at Vint Hill was mentioned in passing in the staff interviews for the Ervin committee. This occurred as the result of an allegation against Shoffler by his former commanding officer at Vint Hill, Captain Edmund Chung. According to Captain Chung, he had occasion to dine with Shoffler in the aftermath of the Watergate arrests. Chung claimed that Shoffler told him the arrests were a tip-off, that [Alfred] Baldwin and Shoffler had been in contact with each other prior to the last break-in, and that if Shoffler ever made the whole story public, “his life wouldn’t be worth a nickel.”

I am glad that this particular topic of a possible secreted film has been resurrected on the forum because of the additional information provided now by members, especially that by Tommy that includes photos of the federal building from which both the Schoolbook Depository and Dealey Plaza could be clearly viewed. If the Office of Naval Intelligence had space in that building, this also is a significant piece of information.

[Thomas Graves]

I thought about posting this picture, but I questioned whether this guy would have had opportunity to walk over from the Post Office building in time to be in Cancellare's photo, and in step with or slightly ahead of three men who are seen in the Main-Houston corner photos (the Rip Robertson-Adrian O'Hare lookalikes, and the baldng man some people peg as Diaz Lanz).

I could be wrong on the timing of Cancellare's photo. One useful approach is to look for the out-of-towners in Dealey photos, and this guy looks like one, along with "Robertson," "O'Hare" and "Hemming." My timing doesn't necessarily preclude that this might be Hunt, who could have left the PO building ahead of the shooting.

A word about Hunt: In large, military-style undertakings - Guatemala, Bay of Pigs - his MO was precisely to remain a command post director. He was more hands-on for the Nixon burglaries (Ellsburg's psychiatrist, Watergate-DNC), and only by luck or planning remained behind for the final Watergate entrance for which he was arrested. So you'd expect Hunt in a command post location in Dealey, or even outside Dealey, and not among the shooters. Any expert insights, Doug Caddy?

Hi David,

Just a side note:

It's been speculated by some that the dark complected, cap-wearing man walking across the grass with "Rip Robertson" and "John Adrian O'Hare" in the Cancellare photo is Herminio Diaz Garcia.

As regards Pedro Diaz Lanz, it's been suggested that he's the man visible standing at the curb wearing a dark sport coat and white pants. The same white pants wearing guy is caught earlier in a film as he starts walking across the "infield grass" towards the Grassy Knoll from the general direction of the Terminal Annex Building immediately before the fatal head shot.

--Tommy

Edited October 9, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

What the hell happened with the film that was supposedly put up for sale? I would guess that the story was real, that someone bought the film, and that all present signed a non-disclosure agreement, which btw has become the norm in any dealings that would reveal anything about how power works. From my lowly place as a musician I know this to be a fact on the ground. I had to sign one in order to perform at the proposal of Kanye West to Kim Kardashian!, and had a conversation on that occasion with some freelance musicians in which they told me of similar signings on jobs they had done on yachts where secret deals and meetings were taking place. I think this a more likely explanation for the death of that story than the idea that the film doesn't exist or that the sale never took place.

The common denominator in this thread is that there was, as Peter Dale Scott would surmise, a continuity of government operation in play, and that elements of the CIA and other intelligence units were part of that operation. We can guess who was spotted there and whether the presence of one operative or another was logical, but the fact remains that an operation took place that day, and it wasn't 'rogue'. It wasn't one government agency or another, but rather elements of several of them, the common ground being a more hidden group not on the books, not overseen by our elected government in their official capacity but probably including some elements of same. I agree that it was necessary to film their coup in order to protect the operation from future revelations.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Paul Brancato

[David Andrews]

I thought about posting this picture, but I questioned whether this guy would have had opportunity to walk over from the Post Office building in time to be in Cancellare's photo, and in step with or slightly ahead of three men who are seen in the Main-Houston corner photos (the Rip Robertson-Adrian O'Hare lookalikes, and the baldng man some people peg as Diaz Lanz).

I could be wrong on the timing of Cancellare's photo. One useful approach is to look for the out-of-towners in Dealey photos, and this guy looks like one, along with "Robertson," "O'Hare" and "Hemming." My timing doesn't necessarily preclude that this might be Hunt, who could have left the PO building ahead of the shooting.

A word about Hunt: In large, military-style undertakings - Guatemala, Bay of Pigs - his MO was precisely to remain a command post director. He was more hands-on for the Nixon burglaries (Ellsburg's psychiatrist, Watergate-DNC), and only by luck or planning remained behind for the final Watergate entrance for which he was arrested. So you'd expect Hunt in a command post location in Dealey, or even outside Dealey, and not among the shooters. Any expert insights, Doug Caddy?

Hi David,

Just a side note:

It's been speculated by some that the dark complected, cap-wearing man walking across the grass with "Rip Robertson" and "John Adrian O'Hare" in the Cancellare photo is Herminio Diaz Garcia.

As regards Pedro Diaz Lanz, it's been suggested that he's the man visible standing at the curb wearing a dark sport coat and white pants. The same white pants wearing guy is caught earlier in a film as he starts walking across the "infield grass" towards the Grassy Knoll from the general direction of the Terminal Annex Building immediately before the fatal head shot.

--Tommy

Tommy - I have the name confused. I see who you have identified at the Elm Street curb in Cancellare (top), and in your post on a film taken from the south, as Diaz Lanz.

I was referring to the man in Cancellare standing with hands at sides near Charles Brehm and son, who is also on Main Street in the alleged Altgens photo (bottom) with "Robertson," "O'Hare" and "Hemming." His dark hair is receding, and he's just behind "Conein."

He has been pegged as a Cuban by some observers in the past. Which Cuban? I can't find the reference, even in FFIDP. I see, however, that this is not Pedro Diaz Lanz. Does anyone remember the identification once attributed to this guy?

Speaking of the "Hunt" figure in Dealey, is it possible that the man in the hat hidden behind the cop's helmet in the alleged Altgens below is that "Hunt" figure in Cancellare ? The Main-Houston pack seems to have migrated together, with "Hemming" now by the NE pergola.

Edited October 10, 2014 by David Andrews

[David Andrews]

David, lets get a little more specific on Hunt's roles. He was a political action officer in both Guatemala and on the JMARC project. What that means is that he pressed the flesh with rebel or exile surrogates and served as a bag man for money. Beyond that he did political assessments of his contacts and wrestled with moving preferred surrogate leaders into political power positions. You would have found him working out of headquarters but in no way in a operational command post role. His trade craft was pitiful and he was written up for security violations. He also partied way too much for the security folks and was not trusted by the Ops guys - Morales noted on a memo that he would not trust him to keep any particular secret.

He simply was not a paramilitary ops guy in any sense, the made contacts, he promised things to people and he passed money. He appears to have been good at that but only with his type of political surrogates, he created as many problems as he solved in that sense. If anything it seems it was his pro Agency spy stories that impressed his superiors. It would be with that background that someone would need to fit him into some role that would put him in a photograph in the Plaza.

Larry - all true, and welcome info. But Hunt was broadcasting radio propaganda during the Guatemala "triumph" and the BOP debacle, so that puts him in the operational arena, and at a distance, but not in a command role. I believe the Guatemala psyop was regarded as his baby, though, and was important to his career.

I take all your points, and never meant to put Hunt "in command" at Dealey or in another military-style operation. I was trying to point out that I find him unlikely in an on-the-ground role at Dealey (such as shooter's spotter), and that the Post Office would be a possible location for Hunt - at a distance which would have kept him from appearing in the Cancellare photo.

I understand that we shouldn't generalize Hunt's various roles at Guatemala, at BOP, and in his Nixon burglary work, and that he was operating in each case under limits imposed on him - so all of his "distance" work was not always preferential.

You may feel that Hunt had no reason to be in Dealey at all. But remember that Hunt, when put on the spot, was incapable of contesting in court that he had been in Dallas, and that even his family wouldn't alibi him. What if his last crack about being "on the sidelines" for the Kennedy killing was meant literally, a kind of semantic dodge for having been there as someone's observer, but not himself involved?

Do you feel that Hunt was in any way involved in the assassination? Do you give any credence to Marita Lorenz describing Hunt as a "bag man" for Sturgis and Ruby?

Edited October 10, 2014 by David Andrews

[Larry Hancock]

Understood David, certainly if he were involved I'd expect to find him somewhere else other than on the ground - the only thing I could come up with is that he might have played a role in working on planting a number of quick links to a Castro plot. Thing is, we know of a bunch of those and they all seem to have happened through other channels or without him. I certainly can see Hunt hearing details of the conspiracy though his contacts, in particular though Artime/Quintero....but I have problems seeing an actual role for him. And of course if Morales had offered it to him as Hunt himself stated...and Hunt had taken a pass.....Hunt would have most likely met with a quick and untimely accident.

[Thomas Graves]

I thought about posting this picture, but I questioned whether this guy would have had opportunity to walk over from the Post Office building in time to be in Cancellare's photo, and in step with or slightly ahead of three men who are seen in the Main-Houston corner photos (the Rip Robertson-Adrian O'Hare lookalikes, and the baldng man some people peg as Diaz Lanz).

I could be wrong on the timing of Cancellare's photo. One useful approach is to look for the out-of-towners in Dealey photos, and this guy looks like one, along with "Robertson," "O'Hare" and "Hemming." My timing doesn't necessarily preclude that this might be Hunt, who could have left the PO building ahead of the shooting.

A word about Hunt: In large, military-style undertakings - Guatemala, Bay of Pigs - his MO was precisely to remain a command post director. He was more hands-on for the Nixon burglaries (Ellsburg's psychiatrist, Watergate-DNC), and only by luck or planning remained behind for the final Watergate entrance for which he was arrested. So you'd expect Hunt in a command post location in Dealey, or even outside Dealey, and not among the shooters. Any expert insights, Doug Caddy?

Hi David,

Just a side note:

It's been speculated by some that the dark complected, cap-wearing man walking across the grass with "Rip Robertson" and "John Adrian O'Hare" in the Cancellare photo is Herminio Diaz Garcia.

As regards Pedro Diaz Lanz, it's been suggested that he's the man visible standing at the curb wearing a dark sport coat and white pants. The same white pants wearing guy is caught earlier in a film as he starts walking across the "infield grass" towards the Grassy Knoll from the general direction of the Terminal Annex Building immediately before the fatal head shot.

--Tommy

Tommy - I have the name confused. I see who you have identified at the Elm Street curb in Cancellare (top), and in your post on a film taken from the south, as Diaz Lanz.

I was referring to the man in Cancellare standing with hands at sides near Charles Brehm and son, who is also on Main Street in the alleged Altgens photo (bottom) with "Robertson," "O'Hare" and "Hemming." His dark hair is receding, and he's just behind "Conein."

He has been pegged as a Cuban by some observers in the past. Which Cuban? I can't find the reference, even in FFDIP. I see, however, that this is not Pedro Diaz Lanz. Does anyone remember the identification once attributed to this guy?

Speaking of the "Hunt" figure in Dealey, is it possible that the man in the hat hidden behind the cop's helmet in the alleged Altgens below is that "Hunt" figure in Cancellare ? The Main-Houston pack seems to have migrated together, with "Hemming" now by the NE pergola.

5108986598_920a7390d9_z.jpgAltgens4recon3.jpg

David,

Are you thinking of Operation 40's Guillermo Novo?

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKnovoG.htm

--Tommy

[Ron Ecker]

Sturgis' written confession to Cardinal Cooke in 1971 included among the many crimes he had committed being one of the shooters of JFK. Marita Lorenz testified that she saw Hunt the night before the assassination in a safe house in Dallas distributing money to some of those involved in the planned assassination.

I'm familiar with Lorenz's story, but I have never heard of Sturgis' written confession to Cardinal Cooke. Where can this confession be found?

[Ron Ecker]

Douglas, I should have Googled before I asked about the confession. I found your thread from last year on the subject.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19994

[Douglas Caddy]

One of the more explosive disclosures made by Sturgis in his confession is the identity of who killed Tippit, and it wasn't Oswald.

[Larry Hancock]

Perhaps everyone could better appreciate Sturgis if they had heard the tapes of he and his lawyer discussing Sturgis efforts to make radical comments, hoping they would get in the press and then he could generate libel suits. The tapes were obtained by a collector from estate sales after his death and Debra played them at a Lancer conference, don't know where they are at the moment but it gives you a better context for Sturgis....just as did the charity scam he and some relatives operated for a time in the 60's. Beyond that, take a read of Gaeton Fonzi's detailed dialog on the Sturgis / Lorenz relationship and see more of the media games in play....as well as Fonzi's evaluation.

Taking a lot of these "confessions" literally without doing a lot of homework on the characters involved is....well I'll just leave it there...plenty of diversions to go around, with

many personal motives in play. Larry

[Paul Brancato]

Larry - do you dismiss the Lorenz/Sturgis material or just view it with healthy skepticism?

[Thomas Graves]

One of the more explosive disclosures made by Sturgis in his confession is the identity of who killed Tippit, and it wasn't Oswald.

So who does Sturgis say killed Tippit?

Jack Ruby?

Larry Crafard?

Igor Vaganov?

Roscoe White?

Michael Paine?

--Tommy

Edited October 10, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, I'm afraid that - as usual - there is a bit of truth in the Lorenz/Sturgis stuff and a lot of garbage. Let's take one example....her claims about being an operational participant in training with the OP40 guys. That is total nonsense, she might have been out around some exile training (we have a photo of her out with the Interpen folks at one media parachute jump event and I tracked down one newspaper report suggesting she might have been around at another incident where one of the volunteers shot another in the leg accidentally) but there is no way she was out in the bush doing what she says with Morales and Jenkins real teams...on the other hand, both she and Sturgis did have some experience with Cadre's cadre and both may have provided identifications, names, background info on their activities etc that was used in the OP40 training, after all those guys had a specific mission of locating and eliminating senior Castro cadre.

So are there bits and pieces of truth around their claims, sure. But Fonzi does a great job investigating and deflating most of them. Its also important to separate what Lorenz and Sturgis gave to the FBI and their relationships with the NY FBI office from anything in Miami or having to do with JMWAVE, etc. Thing is, we have had a ton of good documents on both of them for some two decades now, including Sturgis' offer to set up an assassination on Castro circa 59 before he left Cuba...extended through the US embassy staff in Havana to the CIA and rejected. What is bothering/frustrating me is that we have so much real information now - but it constantly gets trumped by all the dramatic stuff which circulates via the WEB. All the work that went into getting the documents, getting the real story is being neutralized - its sort of like what happened to the History Channel on cable. Once it was history, now its entertainment - and draws lots ore viewers. But then as my wife notes, I'm certainly becoming more curmudgeonly as well...

[Ron Ecker]

One interesting thing about Sturgis (though I don't know what it means) is that during his HSCA testimony he couldn't remember the first name of his first wife.