Proof of Motorcade Stopping?

[Robert Mady]

David, there is no doubt that there was a hole in the windshield and the molding around the windshield was dented, I am saying that this evidence was created after the fact and then recorded and then immediately destroyed so that it could not be analyzed. The dent and hole or nick in the windshield supported shot from behind fiction, most likely intended to be fragments from the head wound. The evidence was destroyed because it would not stand up to close scrutiny.

The telling piece of evidence is that neither KELLERMAN nor GREER recalled any damage to the limo during testimony, the SSA that drove the limo to the airport was not called as a witness to determine if anyone else in Dallas noticed the damage. The reason being is the damage was created when the limo returned to Washington. This was false evidence.

I agree with you the z-film was altered, that does not mean there is not critical evidence remaining in the film, in other words the whole film was not created, it was altered, and mainly altered by frame removal and some special effects such as the false head wound and blood spray.

If you are going to say there is nothing to be gained from any evidence you will lack foundation for anything you dream up. A moderate stance is required and that is to be aware that there is deception buried within the records.

0183 missing?

I agree that the evidence remaining has been selected for our viewing, I just don't have the fatalistic attitude that dictates comprehension of the assassination to be impossible, contrary to this view, I know beyond doubt how the assassination occurred and how the majority of the records corroborate this reality.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Pamela Brown]

Thomas, also if we keep in mind the Queen Mary and the motorcycle escort came to a complete stop, the whole scene from any particular vantage point might appear that the limo also came to a complete stop along with the rest of the vehicles.

also even those close to the limo did not say the limo stopped, they used phrases using words like momentarily, so for all practical purposes the limo came to a momentary halt or almost did should satisfy any arguments. The fact is the limo slowed dramatically after Z-300 and did not accelerate until ~Z-347.

(we are all 'dumb clucks' when it comes to comprehending what the elites are doing and have done to us)

(the more we learn the more we understand how far ahead of us they are in their thinking and how deep the deceptions are they have laid in our path)

It is amazing how much attention is incorrectly paid to the question of whether or not the limo stopped. The question that needs to be asked is just how fast was Greer going when he was looking back at JFK?

[Pamela Brown]

David, there is no doubt that there was a hole in the windshield and the molding around the windshield was dented, I am saying that this evidence was created after the fact and then recorded and then immediately destroyed so that it could not be analyzed. The dent and hole or nick in the windshield supported shot from behind fiction, most likely intended to be fragments from the head wound. The evidence was destroyed because it would not stand up to close scrutiny.

There was no t+t hole in the windshield. That is a Fetzer myth based on a bad copy of the Altgens 1-6. Another rabbit trail, created to divert serious researchers from determining what actually did happen....

[David Josephs]

David, there is no doubt that there was a hole in the windshield and the molding around the windshield was dented, I am saying that this evidence was created after the fact and then recorded and then immediately destroyed so that it could not be analyzed. The dent and hole or nick in the windshield supported shot from behind fiction, most likely intended to be fragments from the head wound. The evidence was destroyed because it would not stand up to close scrutiny.

Gonna have to disagree with you Robert... we can see the cracks in the windshield in DP in Altgens and at Parkland. Whether Greer and Kellerman see a crack or lied about seeing it is not the point... it's there and those standing around the limo at Parkland claim to have seen a thru and thru hole. He said she said.... Since the windshield cannot be authenticated as evidence - it really doesn't matter what conclusion is offered... yet whatever it is, it occurred during the assassination, same with the dented chrome... there were shots from the rear - Tague, manhole cover, sidewalk results of shots from behind the limo... JFK's back wound and JC's backwound could not be cause by shots from the front.

Pamela - I know you've done amazing work on the limo yet how can you say that when you were neither there or actually saw the windshield that night while others were and did... ?

Those who said they saw a thru and thru hole - lying?

Ford plant worker per Weldon - also a fib?

Finally, I did an analysis to figure out how fast that limo was moving based on how long it took Hill to get from where he was to the back of the limo... by my calcs the limo had slowed to less than 3 mph so that in just over 2 steps Hill makes it.

Hill is 15 feet from the front of the Queen Mary. The WCR claims the speed at 11mph which is of course wrong - since Hill would have to drop down and be running at almost 20mph to catch the limo so quickly - unless everyone was traveling alot slower - it also appears as if frames are missing from Nix as he takes the first steps - this gif should give us an idea of how slow these vehicles were moving...

Also notice Cheney and theother motocop stopping and looking to their right - no Cheney gunning forward, no Hargis stopping and moving across Elm... (even more telling is the Quicktime version of Zapruder. Run it backward from the end to this point and see how the limo slows like crazy...

[Robert Mady]

David, I understand the evidence posted.

May I ask some questions?

1) Some witnesses claimed to see a t-n-t hole in the windshield, yet the evidence you posted clearly shows that it was not a t-n-t hole, how do you rationalize this discrepancy?

2) Could the photographs have been altered?

3) If the damage supported shots coming from the rear, why was the evidence so quickly disposed of?

4) Why would GREER and KELLERMAN lie about the damage when this damage was supportive of the WC fiction why could the WC not produce one witness to bolster claims the damage was done in Dallas, more specifically during the assassination? A SSA drove the car to the airport, where is his testimony, another agent may have taken the limo off the plane in Washington, where is his testimony? Doesn't this damage help with the fiction that shots came from the rear?

5) Could the damage to the windshield have been post added to the limo when it was back in Washington, similar to alterations HUMES made to KENNEDY's wounds at Bethesda? Because if a bullet had struck KENNEDY from the rear, it had to exit forward, it had to exit and strike something within the limo, such as the windshield and the chrome strip... The windshield and the chrome strip connects with the head wound just like the 'pristine' bullet connects with the shallow back wound. It is all false evidence.

More than 4 shots?

You are proposing more than 4 shots fired.

I would ask you to rationalize the use of poor marksmen for such an important task, logically, utilizing 1 or 2 of best snipers that could be identified and willing to kill a President would be preferable, then build a course and train them until they could not miss. LBJ's gunman was not a sniper, Mafia thugs are not known to be snipers, yet these are type of characters identified to be snipers used for the assassination. Plus why would the conspirators use ANYONE that could be readily connected to LBJ or a Mafia figure???

Is it possible that much of the evidence we are trying to rationalize has been created to keep us guessing? Could it be nothing more than deception?

Same as -> Rifle found: Japanese rifle, no, British Enfield, no, 30-30, no, 7.65 Argentine Mauser, no, 6.5 MC They created bread crumb trails away from truth.

Bullets in the grass, ricocheting off of street, manhole cover, curb, back of seat, chrome around windshield, windshield, KENNEDY hit 3 or 4 times, JC hit 2 or 3 times...

Bullets fired from street drain, picket fence, Underpass, Other side of Underpass, TSBD SN, TSBD West window, Dal-Tex 2nd floor, Court Building roof, Records Building roof, from the Queen Mary, GREER, man with a camera, Umbrella Man...

With bullets flying all over DP, a precise, professional, well planned assassination is transformed into amateur hour with wannabe snipers incapable of hitting KENNEDY or even a slowly moving or stopped limo, it seems it was fortunate that many people were not killed in the process of killing KENNEDY.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert

Given this line of thinking, don't you think a well trained sniper could have taken JFK out with one shot?

[David Josephs]

David, I understand the evidence posted.

May I ask some questions?

1) Some witnesses claimed to see a t-n-t hole in the windshield, yet the evidence you posted clearly shows that it was not a t-n-t hole, how do you rationalize this discrepancy?

2) Could the photographs have been altered?

3) If the damage supported shots coming from the rear, why was the evidence so quickly disposed of?

4) Why would GREER and KELLERMAN lie about the damage when this damage was supportive of the WC fiction why could the WC not produce one witness to bolster claims the damage was done in Dallas, more specifically during the assassination? A SSA drove the car to the airport, where is his testimony, another agent may have taken the limo off the plane in Washington, where is his testimony? Doesn't this damage help with the fiction that shots came from the rear?

More than 4 shots?

You are proposing more than 4 shots fired.

I would ask you to rationalize the use of poor marksmen for such an important task, logically, utilizing 1 or 2 of best snipers that could be identified and willing to kill a President would be preferable, then build a course and train them until they could not miss. LBJ's gunman was not a sniper, Mafia thugs are not known to be snipers, yet these are type of characters indented as potential snipers in DP. Plus why would the conspirators use ANYONE that could be readily connected to LBJ or a Mafia figure???

Is it possible that much of the evidence we are trying to rationalize has been created to keep us guessing? Could it be nothing more than deception?

Same as -> Rifle found: Japanese rifle, no, British Enfield, no, 30-30, no, 7.65 Argentine Mauser, no, 6.5 MC They created bread crumb trails away from truth.

Bullets in the grass, ricocheting off of street, manhole cover, curb, back of seat, chrome around windshield, windshield, KENNEDY hit 3 or 4 times, JC hit 2 or 3 times...

Bullets fired from street drain, picket fence, Underpass, Other side of Underpass, TSBD SN, TSBD West window, Dal-Tex 2nd floor, Court Building roof, Records Building roof, from the Queen Mary, GREER, man with a camera, Umbrella Man...

With bullets flying all over DP, a precise, professional, well planned assignation is transformed into amateur hour with wannabe snipers incapable of hitting KENNEDY or even a slowly moving or stopped limo, it seems it was fortunate that many people were not killed in the process of killing KENNEDY.

1) I don't see how you can come to a conclusion about a hole or not from those images. All I posted them for was to show that SOMETHING happened to the windshield in DP which was identical to the windshield seen at Parkland. You claimed this damage to be done after the fact - I think this disproves that. What I did say was there were witnesses at Parkland who say they saw a t-n-t hole...

2) Altered to place damage where damage was seen by those who looked? You saying the Parkland images were altered to add this damage?

3) If... If the damage was only indicative of a shot from the rear there would be no need to replace it unless the bullet used did not have or leave any copper within the damage as it should (Tague curb). If it was a t-n-t from the front it had to be removed from evidence.

Let's please try and remember that Oswald was set up. That other bullets where involved and other directions which the WCR via the FBI and SS had to cover-up. NONE of the evidence was going to prove he was killed with a shot from behind yet that was the assignment.... why remove all the steel from the WTCs? Why say OSwald was not ot Odio's, why create a fake gun purchase... ?? "WHY" is not something we can know with any certainty, we can only guess. So let's not ask "WHY" questions and stick to who, what, when, where and how.

4)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion on November 22, after the shooting, to observe closely the windshield?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. The only time I was in the car was going to the hospital and I never--I didn't see the car any more. It was just from the shooting until we got to Parkland that I was with the car. I left the car there and never did see it until it was back at the White House garage

...

Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, did you say you did not notice this crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had flags on the car and you know they were waving at a high rate of speed and you have the Presidential flag and the American flag in front of you there; you know when you are going at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, I don't know how you would say it, it attracts you so much that I didn't have any recollection of what happened on the windshield.

----

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield area after the assassination in Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in the garage on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not.

I simply do not draw the same conclusions as you appear to be jumping to.... You want to give some special meaning to what these men said about the windshield - The fact that so much was avoided related to the windshield suggests to me there was something to hide - but we don't know.

Do you believe Weldon's story about the Ford plant glass replacement?

Do you believe anyone who says they saw a hole?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/06/douglas-p-horne/photographic-evidence-of-bullet-hole-in-jfk-limousine-windshield-hiding-in-plain-sight/

(1) Dallas motorcycle patrolmen Stavis Ellis and H. R. Freeman both observed a penetrating bullet hole in the limousine windshield at Parkland Hospital. Ellis told interviewer Gil Toff in 1971: “There was a hole in the left front windshield…You could put a pencil through it…you could take a regular standard writing pencil…and stick [it] through there.” Freeman corroborated this, saying: “[i was] right beside it. I could of [sic] touched it…it was a bullet hole. You could tell what it was.” [David Lifton published these quotations in his 1980 book, Best Evidence.]

(2) St. Louis Post-Dispatch reporter Richard Dudman wrote an article published in The New Republic on December 21, 1963, in which he stated: “A few of us noted the hole in the windshield when the limousine was standing at the emergency entrance after the President had been carried inside. I could not approach close enough to see which side was the cup-shaped spot which indicates a bullet had pierced the glass from the opposite side.”

(3) Second year medical student Evalea Glanges, enrolled at Southwestern Medical University in Dallas, right next door to Parkland Hospital, told attorney Doug Weldon in 1999: “It was a real clean hole.” In a videotaped interview aired in the suppressed episode 7 of Nigel Turner’s The Men Who Killed Kennedy, titled “The Smoking Guns,” she said: “…it was very clear, it was a through-and-through bullet hole through the windshield of the car, from the front to the back…it seemed like a high-velocity bullet that had penetrated from front-to-back in that glass pane.” At the time of the interview, Glanges had risen to the position of Chairperson of the Department of Surgery, at John Peter Smith Hospital, in Fort Worth. She had been a firearms expert all her adult life.

(4) Mr. George Whitaker, Sr., a senior manager at the Ford Motor Company’s Rouge Plant in Detroit, Michigan, told attorney (and professor of criminal justice) Doug Weldon in August of 1993, in a tape recorded conversation, that after reporting to work on Monday, November 25th, he discovered the JFK limousine — a unique, one-of-a-kind item that he unequivocally identified — in the Rouge Plant’s B building, with the interior stripped out and in the process of being replaced, and with the windshield removed. He was then contacted by one of the Vice Presidents of the division for which he worked, and directed to report to the glass plant lab, immediately. After knocking on the locked door (which he found most unusual), he was let in by two of his subordinates and discovered that they were in possession of the windshield that had been removed from the JFK limousine. They had been told to use it as a template, and to make a new windshield identical to it in shape — and to then get the new windshield back to the B building for installation in the Presidential limousine that was quickly being rebuilt. Whitaker told Weldon (quoting from the audiotape of the 1993 interview): “And the windshield had a bullet hole in it, coming from the outside through…it was a good, clean bullet hole, right straight through, from the front. And you can tell, when the bullet hits the windshield, like when you hit a rock or something, what happens? The back chips out and the front may just have a pinhole in it…this had a clean round hole in the front and fragmentation coming out the back.” Whitaker told Weldon that he eventually became superintendent of his division and was placed in charge of five plant divisions. He also told Weldon that the original windshield, with the bullet hole in it, had been broken up and scrapped — as ordered — after the new windshield had been made.

More than 4 shots?

You are proposing more than 4 shots fired.

I would ask you to rationalize the use of poor marksmen for such an important task, logically, utilizing 1 or 2 of best snipers that could be identified and willing to kill a President would be preferable, then build a course and train them until they could not miss. LBJ's gunman was not a sniper, Mafia thugs are not known to be snipers, yet these are type of characters indented as potential snipers in DP. Plus why would the conspirators use ANYONE that could be readily connected to LBJ or a Mafia figure???

There you go asking WHY again.... We don't know why Robert nor does asking WHY change anything about the answers... If people fired simultaneously as I suspect, movement of the target from one hit could cause others to miss... That is my SPECULATION about your WHY question... Your assumptions keep running away with your logic - "Mafia thugs are not known to be snipers" - where do you come up with this stuff Robert? How many MAFIA THUGS did you ever know? And then again with the "WHY would this or that be" questions when we both know that the evidence which reached the Commissin and report was all BS - no one has been connected to anyone in reality and don't you suppose if hints were dropped that COULD lead back to LBJ he'd be a bit more willing to play along?

Is it possible that much of the evidence we are trying to rationalize has been created to keep us guessing? Could it be nothing more than deception?

Same as -> Rifle found: Japanese rifle, no, British Enfield, no, 30-30, no, 7.65 Argentine Mauser, no, 6.5 MC They created bread crumb trails away from truth.

Bullets in the grass, ricocheting off of street, manhole cover, curb, back of seat, chrome around windshield, windshield, KENNEDY hit 3 or 4 times, JC hit 2 or 3 times...

Bullets fired from street drain, picket fence, Underpass, Other side of Underpass, TSBD SN, TSBD West window, Dal-Tex 2nd floor, Court Building roof, Records Building roof, from the Queen Mary, GREER, man with a camera, Umbrella Man...

With bullets flying all over DP, a precise, professional, well planned assignation is transformed into amateur hour with wannabe snipers incapable of hitting KENNEDY or even a slowly moving or stopped limo, it seems it was fortunate that many people were not killed in the process of killing KENNEDY

I am and have always been saying that ALL THE EVIDENCE WAS CREATED to keep us guessing. We are on the same page there... I have even asked and implored LNers to post any authenticated evidence - there is none.

Yet that does not mean that corroborated evidence is not authentic... Officer Foster sees the bullet gouge by the manhole cover as do Mr/Mrs Hartman https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11913&relPageId=51 Are you trying to say that no shots were fired from the rear cause I don't see that as possible.

Yes Robert, it is amazing that more people did not get hurt... but let's look at the physical damage in those few seconds:

Tague, manhole cover, Elm street sparks by Houston, north side of Elm sidewalk mark, windshield, chrome, JFK back, JCK head, JFK throat, JC back, JC front, JC wrist, JC thigh...

I have not named WHERE these originate, just that they occurred - you try to name to source locations which is interesting but only a guess.

At the end of the shooting we have only one person dead and one person injured - not bad for a bunch of amateurs - the bullets are accounted for just not in the manner we'd like to see... The FBI tells us at 9:18pm during the autopsy that there is another bullet lodged behind JFK's ear... we have both Todd and Johnson giving a bullet to Frasier, we have O'Connor telling us of a bullet removed from the intercostal muscles of JFK, we have no idea what was actually found in the cars of the motorcade as the SS and FBI are the ones we need to believe. We have the manhole cover bullet picked up by unknown blond dude. We have the bullet that hit the curb and nicks Tague. So no Robert, I don't think your last paragraph there is an accurate way to recap the situation.

Let's look at the PLAN - Kill JFK, implicate Oswald, Kill Oswald, write a cover-up report that convinces the world Oswald acted alone, go to Vietnam.

For over 50 years we've been dealing with this reality - very easy to see and understand yet the "bewildered herds" do not want to believe we were or are capable of such things.

So I need to ask you... which truth are the breadcrumbs steering us away from? To me they all lead back to the military industrial congressional complex and the coordinated execution of JFK for monetary and ideological reasons

Discussion the Evidence when the Evidence IS the Conspiracy is what Salandria warned us about... and here we are - not being able to help ourselves but to keep busy examining the minutia and letting the rich steal not only the country but the entire state and federal governing bodies.

Who really cares if it was a hole or not? Does it matter to the concepts of Conspiracy and Patsy whether there was one shooter in front or 5 all around Dealey?

When we start asking the right question (from another thread here I believe) - Can any of the incriminiating evidence be authenticated? and find that none of it can be, maybe we can accept we simply will never know as much about the killing as we will about the Conspiracy to commit and the cover-up whcih follows to this day.

DJ

Edited January 21, 2015 by David Josephs

[Robert Mady]

Robert P. Yes, it had to have been highly probable for one shot 1 kill, but nothing can be guaranteed.

I would think that they had allowed for more than 1 shot to be taken if necessary.

There had to be at least three rifle shots heard.

One to mask or obscure the fact that there was a 'silenced' shot. One rifle shot had to be used to account for this initial silenced shot.

A shot causing a fatal wound was essential to draw attention to an obvious cause of death.

They had to go in with a plan that would be capable of covering contingencies.

Robert just as it was necessary to murder KENNEDY it was also imperative that the assassination did not outright have the appearance of a conspiracy. This alone precludes the possibility of more than 4 shots having been fired.

Think about this, if TAGUE had not been injured, how much easier would it have been to sell the lone nut from the rear three shot scenario? TAGUE's injury was one of the first fatal flaws. What if there had been more bystander injuries or limo occupant injuries or deaths?

Edited January 21, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Roger DeLaria]

Anthony DeFiore has done some research on the front shots fired at JFK, which he says came from the South Knoll area. He will send you a complementary 295 page research compilation on this shot.

JFK ASSASSINATION: THE FRONT SHOT: The FRONT SHOT at JFK that hit him in the THROAT

http://jfkthefrontshot.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-front-shot-at-jfk-that-hit-him-in.html

[Robert Mady]

David, because when the conspiracy theory is presented to those not entrenched in the dogma the theories appear preposterous.

No rational individual is going to believe shots came from a sewer or that 16 shots were fired or a man with an umbrella fired a poisoned dart. We move from possibility to fantasy land and appear nutz.

The simplest explanation is likely the most correct.

It is interesting that when I explain the assassination four shot model to those that know little about the assassination they can see that the model correlates with testimony, that the films corroborate the model and the photographs are supportive. It is the researchers that are off in the twilight zone still attempting to piece together cherry-picked non-sense in order to create some logical explanations that fail to see truth in the simplicity of the solution.

And yes all the 4 shots came from the monument area.

The conspirators were able to convince SSA to lie, the police to lie, witnesses to change their stories, they even got White House aides to lie. We even have evidence that those that would not lie or stop voicing the truth were murdered.

Are you proposing the shot thru the windshield is the shot that wounded KENNEDY in the throat or did it come from the rear and strike curb near TAGUE?

[David Josephs]

Robert P. Yes, it had to have been highly probably of one shot 1 kill, but nothing can be guaranteed.

I would think that they had allowed for more than 1 shot to be taken if necessary.

There had to be at least three rifle shots heard.

One to mask or obscure the fact that there was a 'silenced' shot. One rifle shot had to be used to account for this initial silenced shot.

A shot causing a fatal wound was essential to draw attention to an obvious cause of death.

They had to go in with a plan that would be capable of covering contingencies.

Robert just as it was necessary to murder KENNEDY it was also imperative that the assassination did not outright have the appearance of a conspiracy. This alone precludes the possibility of more than 4 shots having been fired.

Think about this, if TAGUE had not been injured, how much easier would it have been to sell the lone nut from the rear three shot scenario? TAGUE's injury was one of the first fatal flaws. What if there had been more bystander injuries or limo occupant injuries or deaths?

The FBI was counting on it - this model is done BEFORE the Tague shot is acknowledged. Three shots, three hits as their story went.

Robert - you should be happy to see where the FBI places that last shot... z375 I believe

This model never sees the light of day and the CEs created from it (CE878-879) is quite the spin on this info

[Robert Mady]

Roger, thanks for the link, although in reading the synopsis it appears that the throat shot is proposed to have penetrated thru the windshield.

This scenario then must incorporate the active participation of GREER and KELLERMAN who would have heard the popping of the glass as the bullet penetrated the windshield they then would have been sprayed with shards of glass and then seen the hole and cracked windshield.

I do no believe GREER or KELLERMAN were complicit in the crime even though I believe both GREER and KELLERMAN were active in the cover-up.

[Robert Mady]

David please reference Deconstructing the Lies thread, no shots came from the rear, they all came from the monument area, this is evident when analyzing the claims made by witnesses when the claims are sorted by civilian origin verses government, enforcement or news media origin. There are distinctly two opposing stories, one is a complete utter lie, go see truth and decide.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

David there are four witnesses that claimed all of the shots happened while the limo only moved a few feet.

First rifle shot occurring at Z-313

BREHM

J NEWMAN

J HILL

HUDSON

FBI is not close in that the first rifle shot occurred at Z-313 and the limo only traveled 10-12 more feet before two more shots were fired. This accounts for the three rifle shots, this accounts for the only shots BREHM, NEWMAN, HILL and HUDSON heard. They obviously were unaware of the first 'silenced' shot fired at Z-189.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Robert Mady

[David Josephs]

David, because when the conspiracy theory is presented to those not entrenched in the dogma the theories appear preposterous.

No rational individual is going to believe shots came from a sewer or that 16 shots were fired or a man with an umbrella fired a poisoned dart. We move from possibility to fantasy land and appear nutz.

The simplest explanation is likely the most correct.

It is interesting that when I explain the assassination four shot model to those that know little about the assassination they can see that the model correlates with testimony, that the films corroborate the model and the photographs are supportive. It is the researchers that are off in the twilight zone still attempting to piece together cherry-picked non-sense in order to create some logical explanations that fail to see truth in the simplicity of the solution.

And yes all the 4 shots came from the monument area.

The conspirators were able to convince SSA to lie, the police to lie, witnesses to change their stories, they even got White House aides to lie. We even have evidence that those that would not lie or stop voicing the truth were murdered.

Are you proposing the shot thru the windshield is the shot that wounded KENNEDY in the throat or did it come from the rear and strike curb near TAGUE?

What people are willing to believe has no bearing on what occurred Robert.

What the EVIDENCE SAYS has no bearing on what occurred...

The "conspirators" did not need to convince anyone of anything... "They killed POTUS, what do you think they'd do to me" - didn't Dr. Crenshaw say this?

What people SAID and what got entered into Evidence are two very different things - Baker's affidavit on the 22nd has little to do with his testimony months later... even though the affidavit was more incriminating to Oswald than his testimony... whoever he saw coming down the stairs between the 3rd and 4th floors was something the WC did not want to deal with, so they changed the story.

The fact that you can make sense of terribly fraudulent evidence is to be applauded yet what if it came to pass that a shot WAS fired from the sewer - does it actually happening make it any more believeable?

Do I understand you that any evidence of a shot other than the 4 you say were fired from the front was planted after the fact? And this is more logical an explanation than 6-8 shots being fired from 3 directions in a triangulation guaranteed to kill the target?

The explanation of this case has little to do with LOGIC - everything I've read about double and triple agents and/or projects states that those outside the project simply cannot fathom the motivation of the key players - they simply do not have enough information on this history to come to a realistic conclusion other than pure speculation.

The absolutes you state seem to me as being presented as unquestionable conclusions that anyone with half a brain can and should not only understand but accept as the truth. I don't claim to know why things were done the way there were all I can do is authenticate the evidence offered and it it cannot be authenticated it has to be dismissed as evidence.

So let me ask you if you could take 1 or 2 elements of evidence for your conclusions and authenticate them. How is John Connally hit in the right rear from the right front or side of the limo? How is the manhole cover gouge made from the front? How is JFK's jacket, shirt and backwound created after the fact and please AUTHENTICATE this evidence.

I think this can make for great discussion - which authenticated piece of evidence prooves to you that we can forget about shots from the rear?

----------------

Regarding the windshield shot... I do not have the evidence to conclude one way or the other. I cannot see how the windshield and Tague are connected. Maybe it did hit JFK although Altgens does not seem to show that the windshield had been hit by that point. Maybe it was simply a fragment - (did you know that the cannister at NARA with the scrappings from the window is now empty?)

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10482&relPageId=12 is a link to WCD 80 and an SS report which states on the 3rd page (link is to page 1) "In addition, of particular note was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed"

Seems it was Hickey and Kinney who accompanied the limo on the airplane yet neither mentions the windshield in their reports - they were not called to testify.

Edited January 21, 2015 by David Josephs