Proof of Motorcade Stopping?

[Ray Mitcham]

According to the NASA solar position indicator, at 12.30 on the 22nd November 1963, the sun's elevation was just below 38 degrees up from the horizon. Hardly overhead.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Thanks Greg and Ray for the correction as to the sun's position.

[Pamela Brown]

It is amazing how much attention is incorrectly paid to the question of whether or not the limo stopped. The question that needs to be asked is just how fast was Greer going when he was looking back at JFK?

Zero mph.

Exactly. All anyone needs to do is to reference the range of Z-film frames where Greer has turned to face JFK. During that time, at the very least, the limo was not going anywhere.

[Pamela Brown]

The big question for me is, who would risk shooting through the windshield from the front?

The shooters, and I believe there were shooters plural, were extraordinarily careful to avoid wounding anyone but JFK. Connolly and Tague were unavoidable collateral damage, more or less. A shot through the windshield from the front would have been hazardous for lots of persons in addition to JFK. It would have been a low-percentage shot.

Because I believe the shooters were carefully trained professionals, I find it difficult to believe one of them would have risked such a shot. Such a shot surely risked exposing a frontal shooter, which the plotters wanted to avoid.

Agree that the lack of significant damage to the limo is proof that pros fired the shots, and not LHO from his $12 M/C with it's unbalanced site. I think "Do not damage the limo" was one of the main tenets of the assassination script that had been prepared beforehand. Pros would not do something messy such as fire a shot through the windshield from the front. That would accomplish nothing.

Ironically, it was my assertion of this position that caused Fetzer to lose control on the RDR forum. He went ballistic and had me booted off.

[Robert Mady]

A intentional shot thru the windshield does one other thing, in a true investigation the location of a shooter could be pinpointed.

If a hole in the windshield caused the frontal throat injury, tracing back to the rifle would be simple and absolutely proof of a conspiracy.

They would not have chanced this shot. IMO

Pamela, I agree with you that professionals would not create this evidence intentionally.

[Pamela Brown]

How do we know which direction the bullet went through the windshield, if it did indeed go through the windshield?

There is no evidence a bullet went through the windshield. There was a defect. You can see it in the Altgens 1-7 and CE350.

[Pamela Brown]

David, there is no doubt that there was a hole in the windshield and the molding around the windshield was dented, I am saying that this evidence was created after the fact and then recorded and then immediately destroyed so that it could not be analyzed. The dent and hole or nick in the windshield supported shot from behind fiction, most likely intended to be fragments from the head wound. The evidence was destroyed because it would not stand up to close scrutiny.

Gonna have to disagree with you Robert... we can see the cracks in the windshield in DP in Altgens and at Parkland. Whether Greer and Kellerman see a crack or lied about seeing it is not the point... it's there and those standing around the limo at Parkland claim to have seen a thru and thru hole. He said she said.... Since the windshield cannot be authenticated as evidence - it really doesn't matter what conclusion is offered... yet whatever it is, it occurred during the assassination, same with the dented chrome... there were shots from the rear - Tague, manhole cover, sidewalk results of shots from behind the limo... JFK's back wound and JC's backwound could not be cause by shots from the front.

Pamela - I know you've done amazing work on the limo yet how can you say that when you were neither there or actually saw the windshield that night while others were and did... ?

Those who said they saw a thru and thru hole - lying?

Ford plant worker per Weldon - also a fib?

Finally, I did an analysis to figure out how fast that limo was moving based on how long it took Hill to get from where he was to the back of the limo... by my calcs the limo had slowed to less than 3 mph so that in just over 2 steps Hill makes it.

Hill is 15 feet from the front of the Queen Mary. The WCR claims the speed at 11mph which is of course wrong - since Hill would have to drop down and be running at almost 20mph to catch the limo so quickly - unless everyone was traveling alot slower - it also appears as if frames are missing from Nix as he takes the first steps - this gif should give us an idea of how slow these vehicles were moving...

Also notice Cheney and theother motocop stopping and looking to their right - no Cheney gunning forward, no Hargis stopping and moving across Elm... (even more telling is the Quicktime version of Zapruder. Run it backward from the end to this point and see how the limo slows like crazy...

I was not there, but Vaughn Ferguson was. Ferguson was the FMC liaison to the WHG and he was with the car for four days following the assasination. The limo remained in the WHG until early December when it was whisked away for the rebuild.

Whitaker was not present. Nothing about his story makes sense. He may have played golf with Ferguson when he was at Dearborn and heard things from him that he then tried to call his own. There are numerous people who claim to have seen the limo who were not actually there. Whitaker is just one of them looking for a bit of fame.

If you believe any of that disinfo you have been seriously Fetzered imo. Anyone who has been Fetzered will go around in circles, unable to present a cogent argument or discuss any evidence with coherence, and will blindly lash out at anyone who points out the fact that the Emperor is wearing no clothes. Your choice. I hope you will rethink it...

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Pamela

My question was for those people who believe a bullet went through the windshield.

Once again, how do we know which direction a bullet went through the windshield, if a bullet did indeed go through the windshield?

[Greg Burnham]

As many of you know, for many years I worked as a police motorcycle escort officer for State Motor Patrol and later for California Motor Patrol. I was also a Certified Instructor for the California Highway Patrol's Motorcycle Safety Training Program. There is a very strong camaraderie that is shared among members of that rather elite (if I may say so myself) membership. During that time I became good friends with the late, Nick Prencipe. Nick had since retired from his job as lead Police Motorcycle Escort Officer for the [Washington] D.C. Park Police. Nick was the lead Police Escort Officer "point man" for all presidential motorcades in and around Washington, DC in support of the Secret Service Presidential Protection Detail. When he retired, the DC Park Police also retired his license plate with him, giving it to him as a memento. That license plate number reads: US Gov 1 --- IOW: It was the very first Federal Issue, "US Gov" plate ever produced. Hence the # 1.

Here are excerpts from his account:

"Nick Prencipe - This US Park Policeman's statements are puzzling, to say the least, and carry some serious conflicts that have not yet been resolved. Nick insists that he spoke with Greer during the early evening of 11/22/63, and that the conversation took place outside the White House. To all reports, Greer stayed with the body of JFK during the evening and was nowhere near the White House. Thus, Nick's subsequent story is open to question. Nick claims that based on his conversation with Greer, who said that bullets were coming at them from all directions and one of them came through the windshield (something Greer is not on record as saying to anyone else), Nick then went to the 'Secret Service' garage to look at 100X. When I interviewed Nick, he seemed to think this garage was closed down right after the assassination. He claimed that he walked right into the garage and there was no security around 100X. He cannot state at what time this took place. He then lifted the tarp on the car, which was sitting in the middle of the garage, and noted a small, through-and-through bullet hole in the lower passenger-side of the windshield. I asked him more than once if he saw any defect in the area near the rear-view mirror, and he stated that he had not. (A later interview with another researcher triggered his 'not being sure' where the hole was he saw, though he was 100% positive he had seen a hole. This is a good example of the 'hole-is-a-hole' theory.') However, Nick called the White House Garage the "Secret Service" Garage. So did Robert Frazier, whom we know led the team that examined 100X between 1-4:30 a.m. 11/23/63, so this fact adds to Nick's credibility. He spoke of 'lifting a tarp'. The FBI bulky photos show a tarp beside 100X, so this is another point of credibility. He also spoke of being in communication with other DC Park Police as they escorted 100X and 679X from Andrews Air Force Base to the White House Garage. The Taylor/Geiglein report substantiates that it was the DC Park Police who escorted the car; another point of credibility. Nick states that the car was in the center of the garage, and not in its bay; this adds some potential definition as to what time at night he was there -- supposedly, 100X was examined at 9 p.m. by the Secret Service, and at 10pm. a fragment of skull was supposedly retrieved from the floor near the jumpseat by Admiral Burkley, CPO Martinelli and Mills of Burkley's office. That means 100X was probably out of its bay during those examinations. By 1 a.m., when the FBI exam began, 100X was back in its bay, covered with the tarp, roof up, and was driven out into the garage by SA and FBI liaison Orrin Bartlett for the exam. Nick does not recall seeing anyone around the car, nor did he recognize anyone who was present; apparently he just walked right in. While these things are not likely, considering the car was supposedly under guard and all those without White House Garage credentials (such as the FBI) had to log in; however, although security was instituted at 9 p.m., the first entries into the logs were not until 1 a.m., so it could have been that the logs had not been started yet.

In actuality, 100X was the center of activity once it was driven to the White House garage at 9pm 11/22/63. Two Secret Service men and a White House policeman were assigned to guard the car; logs were set up to record those without White House garage credentials coming to see the car (the first entries were the FBI team at 1 a.m.). In addition, the Secret Service was determined to scour the car, finding all evidence themselves. Thus, it is highly unlikely that the car was unattended at any time during the evening. In addition, Nick cannot recall the names or faces of anyone who was there that night, nor give any description of them. This calls the accuracy of the timeline of his stated experience into question. Nick's statement does, perhaps, present an insight into a theme common to all the windshield bullet-hole witnesses -- each of them said they observed a small, clean hole, that you could put a pencil through. Ellis and Freeman were motorcycle officers, as was Nick; they had undoubtedly seen bullet-holes through windshields on many occasions. The fact that this hole was smaller than the size of a normal bullet (consistent perhaps with a bb or pellet gun ammunition) and had no white frothing around it, and no spider cracking emanating from it was not a concern to any of them. There may be an explanation -- Nick alluded, in his interview with me, to the fact that he thought the windshield was made of bulletproof glass. If that were the conception of each of these witnesses, they might not know what to expect, and perhaps the inconsistency of this hole with those made from bullets impacting two-ply safety glass would be understandable. However, the windshield of 100X was a standard Lincoln windshield, available at any Lincoln dealership or windshield replacement service. These witnesses didn't know that."

========================================

Note: I was not the interviewer in the above account.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Greg Burnham

[Robert Mady]

Pamela, there is no doubt there is photographic evidence and testimonial evidence of damage to windshield and molding. Just the controversy on t-n-t verses crack is reminiscent of Mauser vs MC when neither rifle were actually used.

What must be considered is there is not a SSA claiming damage to the limo prior to returning to Washington DC.

GREER and KELLERMAN may not have noticed damage to the molding, in the hectic aftermath this is conceivable. Although a bullet hitting the molding would have made a noise and bullet fragments had to ricochet somewhere.

KELLERMAN may not have noticed the windshield damage because he may have been preoccupied with radio transmission and what not.

But the damage was well within the sight of GREER, it would have been impossible for him not to have noticed and what reason would he have lied and claimed to not see it when damage promotes the government story of shots coming from the rear? This make no sense to me and is the telling aspect for the authenticity of this evidence.

Also a SSA or two drove the limo to the airport, there is no way in the world this SSA could not have seen the damaged windshield, the WC could have attained a statement or testimony from who ever the driver was and if he had a passenger, they did not.

There is just something fishy here.

The windshield and molding could have been saved at the FORD plant but by accounts they were destroyed on the spot.

The proposal is the evidence supports the WC fiction for shots coming from the rear, the evidence could have been planted, recorded and then destroyed because it would not have withstood critical analysis.

The time for the damage to be done to the limo would be shortly following the autopsy, this is when the fictional story began to solidify with a shot exiting the right front of KENNEDYS head. Where would the bullet fragments go...windshield and molding, they had to hit something or someone within the limo. If this damage was not planted then could they have had a plausible explanation were the bullet or bullet fragments went?

Be careful with this evidence, they altered films, changed testimonies, created testimonies, they certainly could alter photographs and damage windshields and limo moldings.

The fact the limo was damaged in two spots, indicates this damage was planted to reflect two bullet fragments exiting KENNEDYS head wound, one small that nicked the windshield and one large that dented the molding.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Robert Mady

[David Josephs]

David, I have posted hundreds of pieces of evidence supporting the assassination four shot model, that in addition disprove every theory there is.

You want evidence please go read my threads and let me know what I have posted that is incorrect or misinterpreted.

I'll post this last thing and be done...

What you've posted is your interpretation of what witnesses said or what they are credited with saying according to FBI or DPD reports - hardly reliable sources we have come to learn and understand.

If I was to debate with you I'd say your 4 shot scenario is not possible given the number of people you continue to claim only heard 3 of these 4 shots... but I am not here to debate with you.

I posted what your main witnesses actually said and in each case they refer to shots well before z313 - I even included images to help you and others visualize these actions and statements.

I've read over your threads and they don't change from previous readings... you interpret what a witness says based on your existing conclusion of 4 monument area shots, rather than reading what they are saying and corroborating it to other statements which show your analysis to be somewhat skewed toward your preconceived conclusion.

What I've offered is rebuttal and analysis of your work and rather than expand on the evidence you claim supports this conclusion, you simply speak louder.

You write in the other thread:

David, let me give you an example of the noise level for the three rifle shots.

2 witnesses located at Record and Main recalled hearing three shots

19 sheriff deputies located outside of DP heard three shots

1 witness a block north of the TSBD to the rear of the building heard three shots

1 witness a behind and to the side of the TSBD sitting in an enclosed building heard three shots

more than 70% of the witnesses heard three or more reports.

A number of witnesses depicted in A6 reported hearing three rifle shots

How does any of the above support 4 shots from the monuments? Which is your conclusion, correct?

The Assassination Four Shot Model, is the solution to the assassination mystery, it obsoletes all other theories.

Edited January 22, 2015 by David Josephs

[Chris Davidson]

Thomas, also if we keep in mind the Queen Mary and the motorcycle escort came to a complete stop, the whole scene from any particular vantage point might appear that the limo also came to a complete stop along with the rest of the vehicles.

also even those close to the limo did not say the limo stopped, they used phrases using words like momentarily, so for all practical purposes the limo came to a momentary halt or almost did should satisfy any arguments. The fact is the limo slowed dramatically after Z-300 and did not accelerate until ~Z-347.

(we are all 'dumb clucks' when it comes to comprehending what the elites are doing and have done to us)

(the more we learn the more we understand how far ahead of us they are in their thinking and how deep the deceptions are they have laid in our path)

It is amazing how much attention is incorrectly paid to the question of whether or not the limo stopped. The question that needs to be asked is just how fast was Greer going when he was looking back at JFK?

Pamela,

http://www24.zippyshare.com/v/Juvktlqr/file.html

I believe Sam Kinney answered that question for us. With or without indicating whether the limo stopped. As you state, forget about proving whether it stopped or not (only way to prove it would be with the original film).

In this case, 3.74 mph to be more exact.

If you dissect this statement from Kinney, and put it into the context of a shot at Z313, the limo is moving at 3-5mph. When the fatal headshot occurred (after 313), closer to Altgens position, Z351, Greer hit the gas.

chris

[Chris Davidson]

Once again, use what is given to disprove the official story.

http://www13.zippyshare.com/v/EPMJUgQD/file.html

I would suggest studying how many steps Clint takes after the 5 frame delay where his legs are together.

In this case, 2 full steps + 1 half step(shortening stride to set up for left leg leap) and jump onto limo.

That would be right leg stride, then left leg stride, then short right stride and finally a jump off his LEFT LEG.

Let me guess, Clint is right handed, most indicative of a person who would jump off their left leg.

How far do you think a person can travel in 2 1/2 steps with a jump up at the end?

Now plug that into 8mph going away from the QM.

Z318-Z343 = 25 frames = 1.36 seconds

8mph(appears to be close estimate of the official version) @ 1.36 sec. = 16ft + whatever distance back from the limo Clint is @ Z318, say approx 9ft.

Approx 25ft traveled "2 1/2 steps plus a jump" to the limo.

I'm 6ft 1' and my running stride is 3 1/2 ft long.

Better yet, anyone can recreate a running distance in terms of individual steps. Just grab a tape measure.

chris

P.S. At 3.74mph over 1.36 seconds (plus 9ft traveled between cars) = 16.47ft.

Much easier to swallow, if not even slower than that.

[Robert Mady]

DAVID

You write in the other thread:

David, let me give you an example of the noise level for the three rifle shots.

2 witnesses located at Record and Main recalled hearing three shots

19 sheriff deputies located outside of DP heard three shots

1 witness a block north of the TSBD to the rear of the building heard three shots

1 witness a behind and to the side of the TSBD sitting in an enclosed building heard three shots

more than 70% of the witnesses heard three or more reports.

A number of witnesses depicted in A6 reported hearing three rifle shots

How does any of the above support 4 shots from the monuments? Which is your conclusion, correct?

It, was meant to address that no matter in which direction or how far a person was in relation to the limo, three rifle shots could be heard.

The problem is witnesses lack of awareness in the A6 photograph of any rifle shots having been fired.

Every aspect of A6 corroborates the Assassination Four Shot Model, Every aspect of A6 proves there were no rifle shots heard prior to the fatal head wound.

[Pamela Brown]

As many of you know, for many years I worked as a police motorcycle escort officer for State Motor Patrol and later for California Motor Patrol. I was also a Certified Instructor for the California Highway Patrol's Motorcycle Safety Training Program. There is a very strong camaraderie that is shared among members of that rather elite (if I may say so myself) membership. During that time I became good friends with the late, Nick Prencipe. Nick had since retired from his job as lead Police Motorcycle Escort Officer for the [Washington] D.C. Park Police. Nick was the lead Police Escort Officer "point man" for all presidential motorcades in and around Washington, DC in support of the Secret Service Presidential Protection Detail. When he retired, the DC Park Police also retired his license plate with him, giving it to him as a memento. That license plate number reads: US Gov 1 --- IOW: It was the very first Federal Issue, "US Gov" plate ever produced. Hence the # 1.

I interviewed Nick Prencipe for "SS100X" in Car Crash Culture. I did not find his story credible. He did not know what time the limo returned. He thought Greer was with the limo. His story had many flaws. He had apparently been prepped by others ahead of time. Most telling of all, when I asked him where the t+t hole was that he thought he saw, he gave me a location other than that of Fetzer's spiral nebulae. As you can imagine, this caused great consternation in the Fetzer camp. Anyone who chooses to give any credence to what he says will find themselves going around in circles....and, well, Fetzered, imo...

Edited January 23, 2015 by Pamela Brown