Proof of Motorcade Stopping?

[Robert Mady]

The issue of the motorcade stopping is vital to understanding the locations of the limo and other vehicles in the motorcade at the times of each of the three rifle shots. The fact that the limo did or did not stop is inconsequential.

There is adequate evidence proving the Zapruder film was altered and frames removed, so definitively determining the actions of the limo is likely impossible.

Whether GREER stopped or not is inconsequential anyway, once one gains the understanding on how the assassination occurred the actions of GREER can be fairly perceived as being benign.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Malcolm Ward]

If we agree that the motorcade route was part of the plan to kill JFK.Then whoever implemented or pushed for that route is in some way involved in JFK,s death.I am sure it could have by passed Dealy Plaza with a bit of forethought.

[Pamela Brown]

"Pamela, is there a documented chain of custody for the limo?"

There are diagrams, notes and photos from the FBI forensic exam of the limo. There is also the Ferguson Memo.

"The testimony of GREER and KELLERMAN is intriguing in that neither one of them was aware of damage to the windshield or molding or bullets bouncing around the front seats. "

Greer and Kellerman did not stay with the limo. Once SS100X arrived at Parkland Hospital they went with JFK and continued on with his body to AF1 and Bethesda. So I am not concerned that they were unaware of damage to the windshield or the chrome molding of the limo.

There may be an indication that they reacted to a shot or shots coming into the limo in that the Z film(s) show them ducking at some point after Z-313. Kellerman in his WC testimony, recalled a "flurry of shots". Of course, he was not asked any follow-up questions so we don't know exactly what he meant.

[Pamela Brown]

The issue of the motorcade stopping is vital to understanding the locations of the limo and other vehicles in the motorcade at the times of each of the three rifle shots. The fact that the limo did or did not stop is inconsequential.

There is adequate evidence proving the Zapruder film was altered and frames removed, so definitively determining the actions of the limo is likely impossible.

Whether GREER stopped or not is inconsequential anyway, once one gains the understanding on how the assassination occurred the actions of GREER can be fairly perceived as being benign.

Everyone knows the Z-film(s) were altered -- the so-called 'camera original' was spliced in at least two places. There is no provenance for these films, if you examine the timeline closely. In addition, the film(s) were not 'protected' from the public, as I viewed a copy of one in NYC in late 1964. So, agreed, there is much info missing about them and they should be referenced with caution, imo.

Whether or not Greer stopped is not imo the best question to ask. A better question is "just how fast was Greer going while he was facing JFK?' If you look at the Z-film(s) you will see him facing JFK for quite a while prior to Z-313. Greer was not going anywhere during that time. If you want to, go to a empty parking lot and try driving while facing backward.

[Robert Mady]

Pamela, my point on GREER and KELLERMAN and all SSA that handled the limo prior to returning to WDC, there is not a witness that was produced that authenticated the damage to the limo to events in Dallas. Again this should have been easy to establish, GREER would have seen this on the way to the hospital, the SSA that drove the limo to the airport, with absolute certainty would have noticed the cracked windshield, the WC utterly failed to produce a witness to link the damage to the assassination. This should be conspicuously obvious that they wanted the evidence introduced only in a cursory manner, the fact that this evidence was not real must be carefully considered.

Pamela, allow me to provide a scenario that can explain the mysterious phenomena found in film and photographs.

If you allow the possibility that the first shot was in deed silenced and that most of the SSA never heard the noise from this shot, including GREER and KELLERMAN.

After the silenced shot, lets say it occurred at Z-189, KENNEDY moves his hands to his throat, JACKIE can be seen supporting KENNEDYS forearm, NELLIE is turned sideways in her seat and CONNALLY is twisting to look to the rear: all by about z-254. KELLERMAN nor GREER have heard any threatening noise but now there is strange activity going on in the rear seats, of course they turn around to determine if there may be a problem, the limo is traveling at a very low speed, about 10 MPH, GREER only looks briefly, I would think most drivers would have no problem looking behind them for a second or two at these speeds. GREER and KELLERMAN were concerned about the occupants of the limo, they had no concept that an assassination was underway and that KENNEDY had been wounded, JACKIE didn't even realize her husband was wounded. (CONNALLYS both claimed they knew, but that is another topic)

Testimonies claim the limo slowed or momentarily stopped when the first shot was heard. When was the first shot heard?

We know the limo did not stop at Z-189, the limo did not stop at Z-220 or Z-230, the limo stopped around Z-313.

The VP-Follow up car had to come to a stop after the first shot because SSA were exiting the vehicle before the second shot sounded, yet the VP car is pacing the QM in the Bronson film up until after Z-313, it is painfully obvious that the VP car did not stop before Z-313 it should be obvious the VP-follow-up car didn't stop either. If they had, we know the VP car kept going, the SS agents would have been fools. Photographic evidence places the VP-follow-up car stopping near where the limo was at about frame z-313. The motorcade came to a halt because GREER slowed or stopped around Z-313.

Why the research community is incapable of connectiong these evidences together to form a coherent image of the assassination is beyond my understanding.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

In other words there is a huge disconnect to what we believe is happening in Altgens #6 to what actually is depicted.

The public was sold this propaganda photo with the impression that the FIRST shot had just sounded and three agents can be seen reacting by looking toward the rear, in FACT this can not possibly be true according to the WCR fiction two shots have sounded and they occurred some time prior to this photo being taken, plus we KNOW no witnesses reacted to the sound of gunfire until after Z-313. Altgens lied and claimed he captured this image at the moment of the first shot, which means either 3.6 seconds had elapsed since Z-189 or Z-232 at least 1.4 seconds had elapsed. This timing and shot discrepancies need to be purposely overlooked when Altgens is used to prove a point, the point should be he lied, he is an unreliable witness, he is a witness that was persuaded to fall in line with the government cover-up.

Mr. ALTGENS - I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, ...

Anyway, another significant disconnect is we may use the testimony of the occupants of the VP and VP- Follow-up vehicles to bolster pet theories, although not one of their testimonies can be corroborated with Altgens #6, Z-Flim or Bronson Film. Why is that, it is because we have no clue how the assassination occurred because we believed the lies we were told, then built our theories using these lies in vain attempts to uncover the truth when we should have discarded everything the government, the disinformation media and pundits declared as truth. They lied about almost everything yet we unwittingly continue to use their propaganda as our foundations to find the truth. We must start with a foundation derived from truth, then details will follow logically.

The research community has become disconnected with the evidence essential to comprehend, instead we make stuff up because we are so confounded by it or become overwhelmed by the apparent contradictions that we abandoned the only sources of the truth that remain. All this confusion stems from the initial propaganda that was implanted in awareness, this deception has to be discarded, to do it one must re-examine the most primary evidence, without any preconceived notions that we know what occurred in DP, one must start by reading affidavits as if this event is brand new.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Paul Trejo]

If we agree that the motorcade route was part of the plan to kill JFK.Then whoever implemented or pushed for that route is in some way involved in JFK,s death.I am sure it could have by passed Dealy Plaza with a bit of forethought.

I agree entirely, Malcolm. IMHO, those involved in changing the JFK motorcade route included Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell and DPD Chief Jesse Curry (who was also the driver in the lead car).

I don't have evidence yet (it is so hard to obtain) but I believe that despite his public pronouncements, that Jesse Curry was a follower of the "Friends of Walker", along with several other Dallas policemen.

We must remember what Dallas Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig said about the area behind the picket fence on the Grassy Knoll -- it was a Dallas Police Department parking lot. Only those with a key could enter and exit from its one, locked gate -- and only DPD officers had keys. The Grassy Knoll was a DPD stronghold.

The plot, IMHO, was originally demanded by Ex-General Edwin Walker at a right-wing meeting in Dallas. It was members of the Dallas Police Department, IMHO, who came up with the plan: "Bend the motorcade over by the Grassy Knoll, and we'll fix his wagon!"

Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell and DPD Chief Jesse Curry then changed the motorcade route based on that plan. It worked.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 13, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Greg Burnham]

I don't have evidence yet (it is so hard to obtain) but I believe that despite his public pronouncements, that Jesse Curry was a follower of the "Friends of Walker", along with several other Dallas policemen.

We must remember what Dallas Deputy Sheriff said about the area behind the picket fence on the Grassy Knoll -- it was a Dallas Police Department parking lot. Only those with a key could enter and exit from its one, locked gate -- and only DPD officers had keys. The Grassy Knoll was a DPD stronghold.

The plot, IMHO, was originally demanded by Ex-General Edwin Walker at a right-wing meeting in Dallas. It was members of the Dallas Police Department, IMHO, who came up with the plan: "Bend the motorcade over by the Grassy Knoll, and we'll fix his wagon!"

Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell and DPD Chief Jesse Curry then changed the motorcade route based on that plan. It worked.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul said: "I don't have evidence yet (it is so hard to obtain) ..."

Perhaps it is "so hard to obtain" because it does not exist.

Until now.

[The above is satire only.]

Edited February 12, 2015 by Greg Burnham

[Jon G. Tidd]

Greg,

The photo you provide of the 11-29-63 Dallas newspaper (I guess) is astounding.

Do you have any information that the photo is a true representation of what was written for public consumption?

[Greg Burnham]

Jon,

I apologize for not identifying it as an entirely satirical post. I wrongly assumed it would be recognized as sardonic. Sometimes I think that if we can't laugh a little bit at ourselves, perhaps we can at least laugh at each other.

I have edited the original to indicate the article was contrived.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Greg Burnham

[Tom Hume]

I’d bet you’re off the hook, Greg. Look at Jon’s photograph, he’s smiling.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Greg,

Thanks. I'm a literal person.

[Greg Burnham]

I’d bet you’re off the hook, Greg. Look at Jon’s photograph, he’s smiling.

Whew!

[Greg Burnham]

Greg,

Thanks. I'm a literal person.

You're welcome, Jon. Usually, I'm literally a literate person.

The reason for my above sarcasm was to criticize, what I believe to be, the irresponsible peddling of a pet theory by one who has no evidence--by his own admission--to support his assertions.

What I posted (the contrived news article) is literally more evidence than he has ever produced in support of this claim.

The excuse proffered for not being able to substantiate his claim: "The evidence is hard to obtain..." is grossly fallacious as it presupposes the existence of the evidence upon which it relies to be

valid. The circularity of the reasoning constitutes an abuse of logic.

[Greg Burnham]

From a speech by Colonel Prouty:

More interest to me than a genealogy of Lee Harvey Oswald and all the rest is, who said, “Lets go to Dallas, Jack?” I understand that Kenny O’Donnell feels real bad about it. I understand that Bobby Kennedy had said from time to time he wished he’d have put his foot down. Gerry Bruno, the greatest advance man in politics went there, but did Gerry Bruno pick the route? Maybe Mark can tell you. Who did? Who decided, “Let’s go to Dallas? You’ve been to Fort Worth; you’ve got to go to Dallas.” That’s important because whoever decided that knew some things.