Paul Trejo Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) Yet it all fits together, IMHO, Glenn. The Secret Service Agents supposed to protect JFK the next morning, spent most of the night drinking at two nightclubs, THE CELLAR and THE FORT WORTH PRESS CLUB. My questions for the topic of a "Stopped Limo" thread would be about SS Agent Forrest Sorrels and these two nightclubs. Was Forrest Sorrels a regular at one or both of these nightclubs? Was Forrest Sorrels the one who, as Dallas host, enticed the Secret Service Agents protecting JFK to carouse all night with him? Those are my sub-questions. I believe they're relevant. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited August 3, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Paul, I do agree with some of your previous points, but: "It seems to me that the Limo slowed down to 7mph directly next to the gutter drain on Elm street, and quickly sped up after that." At Z313, 7.6 mph. Z313-Z351 averaged 9.21 mph. Top speed between Z313 and Z351 = 9.21 x 2 =18.42 - 7.6 = 10.82mph. An increase in speed of 3.22mph, 2 seconds after the Z313 headshot. The film is not as it appears to be. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 i too believe that the SS are involved. much because of Doug Horne's story, and others... didn't dispute that. it just seems that you often try to steer a topic in your pet direction, and i think that's tacky. what the SS carousing the night before has to do with the topic of the limo slowing i have no idea. i think everyone agrees that the SS got drunk the night before. of course it's relevant in the bigger picture, but unless we want to charge Greer with a DUI, i'm not sure it bears on the speed of the limo and what Z shows... what the slowest speed of the limo being 7.6 on film and the witnesses statements to the contrary have to do with the topic is obvious. it's yet another nail in the Zapruder coffin (for me), and in the WC's con-game (for me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Yet it all fits together, IMHO, Glenn. The Secret Service Agents supposed to protect JFK the next morning, spent most of the night drinking at two nightclubs, THE CELLAR and THE FORT WORTH PRESS CLUB. My questions for the topic of a "Stopped Limo" thread would be about SS Agent Forrest Sorrels and these two nightclubs. Was Forrest Sorrels a regular at one or both of these nightclubs? Was Forrest Sorrels the one who, as Dallas host, enticed the Secret Service Agents protecting JFK to carouse all night with him? Those are my sub-questions. I believe they're relevant. Regards, --Paul Trejo it also slowed down just next to the Umbrella, so many people call that proof that the Umbrella was a weapon. I call it a stretch without further evidence to support that, just like i need further evidence to support a gun from the storm drain. what i DO see is that the limo slowed down at the same time the President got shot, and that there was a man in charge of the speed of the limo. i made all of these observations without the aid of conjecture and supposition. yay me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 ...what the slowest speed of the limo being 7.6 on film and the witnesses statements to the contrary have to do with the topic is obvious. it's yet another nail in the Zapruder coffin (for me), and in the WC's con-game (for me). So, let's see if I have this straight, Glenn. You believe that the 59 witnesses were correct, and that the limo actually stopped for the head shot? And then the Z-film was tampered to remove the stop itself? Yet in that case I would ask how the head-shot appears so full and complete in the Z-film. There seems to be no tampering with the film at precisely that second in time. Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Burnham Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 For the sake of discussion, let's assume the limo stopped or slowed to a crawl... The importance of the limo stop evidence is multifaceted. If we assume that the limo stopped (or for those who are yet undecided, that it slowed down to a crawl) but the extant film does not show that stop, then the film was tampered, hence a conspiracy to obstruct justice. We must also ask why the presidential protection detail failed to follow the proper protocol for evading an attack. If a threat--particularly gunfire from any direction--is detected, then rapid acceleration and the acquisition of lateral motion is immediately indicated as the first means to protect. That the extant Z-film was edited to remove evidence of the limo stop (or extreme slow down) is not the point. The point for the editing / alteration was to conceal Secret Service complicity or gross incompetence when failing to follow normal protection procedures. Greer's claim that he slowed down because he thought that they may have been "heading into an ambush" is ludicrous. It is the "gross incompetence at worst" limited hangout position. Even if Greer did think that they were "heading into an ambush" (which means he thought there were shots from the front) --indeed, especially if he thought that was the case--then rapid acceleration / lateral motion (a zig-zag pattern) should have been his conditioned, reflexive response. After all, what other choice did he have? Was he considering putting the vehicle in reverse? Perhaps a U-turn? No, Greer actually had to "think it through" in order to override his training and resist the reflexive response with which he was conditioned to properly respond. In other words, slowing or stopping the vehicle was the absolute worst choice he could have made. It would all but insure success for the assassin(s). Choosing to stop was a decision that first countermanded the correct "trained" response and then replaced it with "new" faulty instructions. If Magic Johson fed Kareem Abdul Jabaar the basketball on a fast break, while Kareem was standing alone under the basket, Kareem would instinctually slam dunk the ball. In order for him to fail he would need to deliberately stop, wait for the defenders to come back and guard him, and then allow them to block his shot. He would literally have had to "override his conditioning" to prevent himself from making the correct play (a slam dunk). If he did this when the Lakers were down by one point with only a half second on the clock and it lost the game for them, what would we think happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) “Those who had been in the motorcade were racking their brains with if only this, if only that. One of them came to her [Jackie Kennedy]. Bill Greer, his face streaked with tears, took her head between his hands and squeezed until she thought he was going to squeeze her skull flat. He cried, ‘Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn’t mean to do it. I didn’t hear, I should have swerved the car, I couldn’t help it. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it I swerved. If only I’d seen in time! Oh!’ Then he released her head and put his arms around her and wept on her shoulder.” "Death of a President" by William Manchester It seems that whenever the discussion here comes around to the issue of the limo stopping/not stopping, no mention is made of the fact that, of the 59 witnesses who claimed to have seen the limo stop/almost stop, a good number of them ALSO saw the limo swerve to the left. If we assume a certain degree of validity can be derived from the overwhelming number of witnesses who saw the limo stop/almost stop, we are then compelled to further grant that validity to the witnesses who saw the limo swerve to the left. Plain and simple, the limo seen in the Zapruder film did NOT swerve to the left. Therefore, if the witnesses are to be believed, the only conclusion to be drawn from this is that the swerve was removed from the Zapruder film. If the swerve was removed, the possibility exists that the complete stop of the limo was also removed. If the swerve and the stop were removed, we must then consider the head shot at z313 is also a fabrication. P.S. I've always wondered what Bill Greer meant when he said "....as soon as I saw it, I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time!" What on earth was "it"? Edited August 3, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 you've learned the art of condescension well. you sound like DVP now. how's that feel? let's see if your logic works better (condescension is ugly, isn't it?). So, let's see if I have this straight, Glenn. You believe that the 59 witnesses were correct, and that the limo actually stopped for the head shot? -- I never suggested that i think all 59 are "correct" - if you read my first post you'll see that i put emphasis on the vagaries of the terms "slowed", "near stopped" and "stopped" -- i DO think that if 59 people say that the limo did something resembling nearly stopping then that's what happened. it did something like nearly stopping. -- i did't say stopped - i said slowed, didn't i? did i say stopped? let me go look. [clop, clop, clop ... clop, clop, clop - I'm back] just took a look. nope, it says slowed. And then the Z-film was tampered to remove the stop itself? -- yes, i think that the Zapruder film was most likely altered at some point in time, and that part of the alteration included changing the speed of the limo - since the limo was almost always moving, any alteration would have pretty much had to change the speed of the limo... yes? no? -- if the limo comes to a stop and that part of the film is removed, then it stands to reason that the limo would then appear to continue moving. yes? no? (this is rhetoric) -- Yet in that case I would ask how the head-shot appears so full and complete in the Z-film. There seems to be no tampering with the film at precisely that second in time. -- I disagree. the head shot perhaps appears mostly full, but a) i've never seen a real headshot to compare this with (have you?), the blood and matter cloud disappears WAY too fast (within about 3 frames, which is FASTER than any mist should dissipate in those current winds), and c) there seems to be the matter of a missing hole in the back of Ks head that should be visible. I really feel that the film was tampered with at precisely that time (and probably at the turn onto Elm), which, if the limo were to have stopped at that time like 59 people suggest that it did to one degree or another, would also be part of the film that was affected. not too sure about that last assumption. i think a lot of people would disagree with you on that. sorry about being a smarta** to you. i did it in response to yours, and i didn't like it very much. i think it's very unnecessary and totally ineffective. look where it gets David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 For the sake of discussion, let's assume the limo stopped or slowed to a crawl... The importance of the limo stop evidence is multifaceted. If we assume that the limo stopped (or for those who are yet undecided, that it slowed down to a crawl) but the extant film does not show that stop, then the film was tampered, hence a conspiracy to obstruct justice. We must also ask why the presidential protection detail failed to follow the proper protocol for evading an attack. If a threat--particularly gunfire from any direction--is detected, then rapid acceleration and the acquisition of lateral motion is immediately indicated as the first means to protect. That the extant Z-film was edited to remove evidence of the limo stop (or extreme slow down) is not the point. The point for the editing / alteration was to conceal Secret Service complicity or gross incompetence when failing to follow normal protection procedures. Greer's claim that he slowed down because he thought that they may have been "heading into an ambush" is ludicrous. It is the "gross incompetence at worst" limited hangout position. Even if Greer did think that they were "heading into an ambush" (which means he thought there were shots from the front) --indeed, especially if he thought that was the case--then rapid acceleration / lateral motion (a zig-zag pattern) should have been his conditioned, reflexive response. After all, what other choice did he have? Was he considering putting the vehicle in reverse? Perhaps a U-turn? No, Greer actually had to "think it through" in order to override his training and resist the reflexive response with which he was conditioned to properly respond. In other words, slowing or stopping the vehicle was the absolute worst choice he could have made. It would all but insure success for the assassin(s). Choosing to stop was a decision that first countermanded the correct "trained" response and then replaced it with "new" faulty instructions. If Magic Johson fed Kareem Abdul Jabaar the basketball on a fast break, while Kareem was standing alone under the basket, Kareem would instinctually slam dunk the ball. In order for him to fail he would need to deliberately stop, wait for the defenders to come back and guard him, and then allow them to block his shot. He would literally have had to "override his conditioning" to prevent himself from making the correct play (a slam dunk). If he did this when the Lakers were down by one point with only a half second on the clock and it lost the game for them, what would we think happened? and if in the film we see Kareem's knees bend to make the jump and then next see him standing under the basket without the basketball and the scoreboard has mysteriously increased at an increment of 2, and if 59 people at the game said that they saw him "slam" the ball through the hoop, or "slamdunk" the ball, or "do a really high layup," it would be safe to assume that the film was edited and that the NBA is in conspiracy with the Boston Celtics to manipulate the outcome of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) It seems that whenever the discussion here comes around to the issue of the limo stopping/not stopping, no mention is made of the fact that, of the 59 witnesses who claimed to have seen the limo stop/almost stop, a good number of them ALSO saw the limo swerve to the left. If we assume a certain degree of validity can be derived from the overwhelming number of witnesses who saw the limo stop/almost stop, we are then compelled to further grant that validity to the witnesses who saw the limo swerve to the left. Plain and simple, the limo seen in the Zapruder film did NOT swerve to the left. Therefore, if the witnesses are to be believed, the only conclusion to be drawn from this is that the swerve was removed from the Zapruder film. If the swerve was removed, the possibility exists that the complete stop of the limo was also removed. If the swerve and the stop were removed, we must then consider the head shot at z313 is also a fabrication. P.S. I've always wondered what Bill Greer meant when he said "....as soon as I saw it, I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time!" What on earth was "it"? good GRIEF, MAN!!! this is AND-GATE (or is it OR GATE...?) LOGIC like i haven't seen IN YEARS!!!!! Well DONE! oh my word, that's beautiful. Edited August 3, 2015 by Glenn Nall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 it also slowed down just next to the Umbrella, so many people call that proof that the Umbrella was a weapon. I call it a stretch without further evidence to support that, just like i need further evidence to support a gun from the storm drain... OK, Glenn, what do you think of this narrative about the "umbrella" gun? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcdMlNFL9Bk Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 For the sake of discussion, let's assume the limo stopped or slowed to a crawl... The importance of the limo stop evidence is multifaceted. If we assume that the limo stopped (or for those who are yet undecided, that it slowed down to a crawl) but the extant film does not show that stop, then the film was tampered, hence a conspiracy to obstruct justice. We must also ask why the presidential protection detail failed to follow the proper protocol for evading an attack. If a threat--particularly gunfire from any direction--is detected, then rapid acceleration and the acquisition of lateral motion is immediately indicated as the first means to protect. That the extant Z-film was edited to remove evidence of the limo stop (or extreme slow down) is not the point. The point for the editing / alteration was to conceal Secret Service complicity or gross incompetence when failing to follow normal protection procedures. Greer's claim that he slowed down because he thought that they may have been "heading into an ambush" is ludicrous. It is the "gross incompetence at worst" limited hangout position. Even if Greer did think that they were "heading into an ambush" (which means he thought there were shots from the front) --indeed, especially if he thought that was the case--then rapid acceleration / lateral motion (a zig-zag pattern) should have been his conditioned, reflexive response. After all, what other choice did he have? Was he considering putting the vehicle in reverse? Perhaps a U-turn? No, Greer actually had to "think it through" in order to override his training and resist the reflexive response with which he was conditioned to properly respond. In other words, slowing or stopping the vehicle was the absolute worst choice he could have made. It would all but insure success for the assassin(s). Choosing to stop was a decision that first countermanded the correct "trained" response and then replaced it with "new" faulty instructions. If Magic Johson fed Kareem Abdul Jabaar the basketball on a fast break, while Kareem was standing alone under the basket, Kareem would instinctually slam dunk the ball. In order for him to fail he would need to deliberately stop, wait for the defenders to come back and guard him, and then allow them to block his shot. He would literally have had to "override his conditioning" to prevent himself from making the correct play (a slam dunk). If he did this when the Lakers were down by one point with only a half second on the clock and it lost the game for them, what would we think happened? Greg, Well summarized. The only disagreement I have is the "Magic/Kareem scenario. Kareem was never down court, ahead of Magic, on the fast break. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The only valid question to ask about the speed of the limo imo is just how fast a car would be going when the driver is facing backward? That is a rhetorical question, but it cuts to the heart of the issue. During the Z-frames when Greer is facing JFK there is no question the limo was not going anywhere and may even have stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Pamela, I think Kinney is fairly close with his estimation. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Would a swerve to the left at 3-5 mph be noticeable on the Z film? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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