Who Did it?

[Greg Parker]

[Greg Parker]

[Greg Parker]

[Ron Ecker]

Thanks. So Fritz and other officers shed no light at all on the break in formation. Specter and Belin saying that Fritz broke formation because the car was a little too far ahead makes no sense at all unless I'm missing something. I guess we're supposed to believe that Fritz broke formation to go to the car and tell the driver, "You've got this car too far ahead. Now look how far we have to -- " BANG!

[Ron Ecker]

In his WC testimony Fritz claimed that he thought Oswald and the officers escorting him were closer behind him than they actually were, though the questions and answers are confusing.

Mr. BALL. How far ahead of Ruby were you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well. I thought they were right behind me almost but I noticed from the picture they were a little further back than I actually thought they were, probably where Mr. Baker is to this gentleman. I believe maybe a little bit farther than that, maybe about----
Mr. BALL. How far behind Oswald were you, how far behind Oswald. Oswald was behind you?
Mr. FRITZ. Behind me.
Mr. BALL. How many feet would you say?
Mr. FRITZ. In feet I would say probably 8 feet.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know of Jack Ruby?

Notice how Ball changes the subject when Fritz tells him that Oswald was about 8 feet behind him.

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks. So Fritz and other officers shed no light at all on the break in formation. Specter and Belin saying that Fritz broke formation because the car was a little too far ahead makes no sense at all unless I'm missing something. I guess we're supposed to believe that Fritz broke formation to go to the car and tell the driver, "You've got this car too far ahead. Now look how far we have to -- " BANG!

Ron, if you watch the pertinent video you'll see that the car was backing up (because it was too far forward at some point) and it looks like Fritz was trying to tell the driver where or when to stop.

Notice how the car's brake lights are on in the frame I posted? That's because the driver was braking after having backed the car up closer to Oswald and entourage.

Never mind. I can't seem to post the "screen shot" image here. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it.

--Tommy

PS But I agree with you, Ron. Fritz obviously broke away from Oswald because 1 ) he didn't want to get shot by Ruby, and 2 ) he wanted Reno to stop! stop! stop! so that Ruby would have plenty of room to "do the job."

Edited September 3, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Thomas Graves,

In post #37, you say in effect that Fritz was a team player; that he went along with a plan to kill Marina's husband. I don't dispute or affirm this. But question: In your opinion if Fritz was a team player, who was the team leader?

BTW, I like that you have been an adventurer. Do you identify with Marina's husband in any way? Do you think adventurers have been painted falsely over the years? What do you recommend as an adventurer?

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas Graves,

In post #37, you say in effect that Fritz was a team player; that he went along with a plan to kill Marina's husband. I don't dispute or affirm this. But question: In your opinion if Fritz was a team player, who was the team leader?

BTW, I like that you have been an adventurer. Do you identify with Marina's husband in any way? Do you think adventurers have been painted falsely over the years? What do you recommend as an adventurer?

Jon,

I was kidding about Fritz. I think the old codger really was trying to help Reno Pierce back up the car to exactly the right spot, whatever that was.

Regarding my own personal experiences, I fully expect a certain xxxxxxx mafia guy I know to track me down any day now, so I'd rather keep my methods and sources to myself if you know what I mean.

Do I think "adventurers" have been painted falsely over the years? No I don't, Jon. I think most of us are "odd ducks" and that many, many of us have a very strong death wish.

Do I "identify" with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Yes, I can. Both of us. LOL

--Tommy

Edited September 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

Ron is right, kind of. IMO, The MICC is not really the government. The government is a facade like so many others for the MICC at this point.

What you're saying is that the MICC is the real government, with our so-called Constitutional government being a facade. So still the government (the real one) did it. But to avoid confusion I would say that yes, the MICC did it.

This was a Military Industrial Congressional Complex backed assassination to retain the status quo... the "I" makes the stuff, the "M" buys the stuff and the "C" pays for the stuff.

I would change that (as I believe John Simkin once did) to the Military Industrial Congressional Intelligence Complex. The "I" makes the stuff, the "M" buys the stuff, the second "I" arranges for the stuff to be used, and the "C" pays for the stuff.

Jon - The Military did it. The Military did the autopsy. The Military flew the body to DC. The Military was the background of 99% of those on the ground around JFK.

How much the Military reached out to the CIA et al is the question yet no one else could facilitate both the operation and the cover-up as effectively as the Military.

They do it quite oftne throughout history as well.

Hi Ron...

I've not gone that way since I believe that "CIA" was just another way to say "Military Intelligence" but by dropping the "Military" part it presents the illusion they are separate.

Specific agent action may run off course... but the CIA was, is and will always be a Military instrument and was one of the main reasons the FBI's SIS was ended in 1945.

It was one if not the only one of its kind - an intelligence gathering machine run by the FBI outside of Military involvement and not to interfere with Mil Intel where it operated, in the Western Hemisphere.

To DVP once again... it is not our role to prove alternate possibilities or innocence. It is your responsiblity to prove guilt.

Proving Guilt requires authenticated Evidence as would be accepted by a court of law.

IOW you need to PROVE C2766 was ever in Oswald's possession with authenticated and corroborated proof.

C2766 must have been at 4905 Magazine on September 23rd when Ruth takes Marina and June to Irving along with all their possessions save a couple of small suitcases Oswald is seen with by a neighbor. The Rifle, to have gottento that Garage MUST have been transported during this trip.

PROVE IT.

Mr. JENNER - Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. JENNER - You didn't see any kind of weapon?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. JENNER - Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE - No; I saw nothing of that nature.

Mr. JENNER - Did you drive them to your home?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes; immediately.

Mr. JENNER - Did you see that being done, were you present?

Mrs. PAINE - I helped do it; yes.

Mr. JENNER - Did you see any weapon on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. JENNER - Whether a rifle, pistol or--

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. JENNER - Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package?

Mr. PAINE - That did not occur to me.

Mr. PAINE - I don't remember whether the date was September. I remember that was the date they came back from New Orleans and I do remember that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their car. I only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was the heaviest thing there and they were easy also.

Mr. LIEBELER - You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon into the garage?

Mr. PAINE - That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the station wagon to the garage.

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us when the last time was that you saw that package in the garage prior to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE - No; I am afraid I can't.

[James DiEugenio]

TG: PS But I agree with you, Ron. Fritz obviously broke away from Oswald because 1 ) he didn't want to get shot by Ruby, and 2 ) he wanted Reno to stop! stop! stop! so that Ruby would have plenty of room to "do the job."

That isn't the point.

​The point is that if you watch the whole sequence, its Fritz who breaks the protection cup by darting out front by so much. There is no way Ruby could have gotten into such a perfect position if Fritz had not done that.

Secondly, as you watch it you will see that everyone looks at Ruby as the shot goes off, everyone except Fritz.

Third as you watch the whole sequence unfold on the original NBC feed, as the police get off the elevator with Oswald and enter the foyer area, the first horn goes off. Then as the second horn goes off, Ruby instantly darts forward to kill Oswald. If you see the entire episode on Evidence of Revision from a different camera and angle, you will see Ruby hiding behind, I think Harrison, waiting for Oswald to come off the elevator.

I never say that Fritz planned what he did in advance to have Oswald killed. What I, and others, say is that the police put Ruby in a good position so that if the moment arose--as it did with Fritz breaking formation--he would have the opportunity to rub out Oswald. Which he did, due to the negligence by Fritz.

IMO, this is why Fritz became something of a recluse after the WR came out.

Edited September 4, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[Thomas Graves]

TG: PS But I agree with you, Ron. Fritz obviously broke away from Oswald because 1 ) he didn't want to get shot by Ruby, and 2 ) he wanted Reno to stop! stop! stop! so that Ruby would have plenty of room to "do the job."

That isn't the point.

​The point is that if you watch the whole sequence, its Fritz who breaks the protection cup by darting out front by so much. There is no way Ruby could have gotten into such a perfect position if Fritz had not done that.

Secondly, as you watch it you will see that everyone looks at Ruby as the shot goes off, everyone except Fritz.

Third as you watch the whole sequence unfold on the original NBC feed, as the police get off the elevator with Oswald and enter the foyer area, the first horn goes off. Then as the second horn goes off, Ruby instantly darts forward to kill Oswald. If you see the entire episode on Evidence of Revision from a different camera and angle, you will see Ruby hiding behind, I think Harrison, waiting for Oswald to come off the elevator.

I never say that Fritz planned what he did in advance to have Oswald killed. What I, and others, say is that the police put Ruby in a good position so that if the moment arose--as it did with Fritz breaking formation--he would have the opportunity to rub out Oswald. Which he did, due to the negligence by Fritz.

IMO, this is why Fritz became something of a recluse after the WR came out.

Dear James,

Don't get me wrong -- I'm a dyed-in-the-wool CTer. (My pet theory is that the observation post / command post for the assassination was probably in Harry D. Holmes fifth-floor office in the Terminal Annex Building across the plaza from the TSBD.) But I do try to find reasonable explanations for things that other, perhaps more "over the top," CTers prefer to give sinister, conspiratorial "reasons" for.

In this case, I think Fitz assumed that Oswald was being sufficiently well-guarded / protected by Graves [no relation to me] and Leavelle, and that Fitz's attention at that moment was focused on the backing-up car and getting it to stop where he wanted it to stop.

He didn't want Pierce to back the car into the oncoming Oswald, Graves, and Leavelle, did he? That's why he "broke away" -- to give visual / oral instructions, through the car's window, to Reno Pierce, to let him know when to stop,

That's the point.

Why do we have to read sinister motives into every so-called "suspicious" activity in this case? Is it because our community of students and researchers is perhaps just a little bit ..... paranoid?

Carry on.

--Tommy

Edited September 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[James DiEugenio]

Take a look at the sequence below from about 2:10 onward.

Especially at about 2:50, when the Dallas police cannot explain how Ruby penetrated the protective formation. They say he "jumped" over or around or whatever.

He did not have to do that, since Fritz left Oswald's front wide open.

If Fritz had a problem about the car : 1.) He should not have let that supersede the protection for Oswald, or 2.) He should have just stopped the whole thing until the car was in the correct position.

Plain and simple, with the help of two or three other Dallas policemen, who made sure Oswald got in through a supposedly locked door, Fritz got Oswald killed through his own negligence.

And the WC tried to cover this up in the report.

[David Andrews]

Any competent department would have set up a tight cordon of officers lining both sides of Oswald's route to the car, and backed the car up to end of the cordon before bringing Oswald out. DPD's excuse for its stupidity would doubtless be that they left open space for the news cameras - and the news cameras were the excuse for the whole business of not smuggling Oswald out to the county jail and then taking pictures of him when he arrived upstairs there. So there was no formation to break, as they left space open designated for the TV cameras. Fritz was all the "formation" there was in this loose game of crack-the-whip. Why not send an officer out to back the car up to what there was of a "formation"? Other motives.

Edited September 5, 2015 by David Andrews

[Ron Ecker]

I never say that Fritz planned what he did in advance to have Oswald killed. What I, and others, say is that the police put Ruby in a good position so that if the moment arose--as it did with Fritz breaking formation--he would have the opportunity to rub out Oswald. Which he did, due to the negligence by Fritz.

Then I assume you also believe that Fritz was not "in" on Holmes delaying the transfer until Ruby arrived on the scene. To Fritz it was just an honest interrogation by Holmes with no ulterior motive.

[James DiEugenio]

I'm an agnostic on that one.

Almost anything Holmes was in on that weekend was as fishy as a large can of tuna.