Great New Movie Spells out the Case for Oswald as Prayer Man

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Robert,

From his testimony, it sounds like Baker stood inside the enclosed "vestibule" which was between the second floor itself, and the lunch room proper. The vestibule's outer door could have closed behind him. Even if it hadn't, it would have been difficult for Adams and Styles to see him and Truly unless they happened to look in that direction as they were scurrying towards the next flight of downward-leading stairs which was very close to where they "landed" on the second floor. So close, in fact, that they were probably on the second floor landing for only two or three seconds. They were concentrating on getting down stairs as quickly as possible (not wanting to turn their ankles while walking quickly in their 3' heels, they were most likely just looking at the floor in front of them), and probably didn't even look towards the vestibule / lunch room. Even if they did hear Baker's or Truly's voice, they may not have thought there was anything unusual going on in there. And as far as Baker was concerned, his attention was totally focused upon Oswald.

Floor plan of the second floor:

http://jfkassassinat...ibits/ce497.jpg

Photo taken from a point about 10' away from the second floor's stairwells showing the lunchroom's "vestibule" door from the outside. "Warren Commission, Volume XVII: CE 498 - Photograph taken near the stairs of the second floor of the TSBD."

:

--Tommy

****************************************************************************************************************

Thomas and all other members

Please carefully read the following excerpt from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony, and then tell me how you think Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles could have passed through the 2nd floor landing without seeing OR hearing Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, or being seen OR heard by Roy Truly or Marrion Baker:

"Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door."

Does anyone see how this contradicts Mr. Gilbride's theory that Styles and Adams slipped through the 2nd floor landing unnoticed, simply because of his erroneous belief that Truly, Baker and Oswald were in the lunch room, behind a closed vestibule door?

ROY TRULY NEVER WENT THROUGH THE VESTIBULE DOOR AND ALLOWED IT TO CLOSE BEHIND HIM!!

His own words: "I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way." He leaned in, he didn't walk in. Why did he not go trough the 2nd door, and into the lunch room? SIMPLE, Marrion Baker was standing in the lunch room doorway, directly in front of him and holding a gun on Oswald.

Contrary to what WC apologists would have us believe, the alleged 2nd floor lunch room did not occur in the lunch room; it occurred in the vestibule between the lunch room and the 2nd floor landing. Truly would have been standing in the open vestibule doorway (see photo below) and would have been plainly visible to Adams and Styles as they passed through the landing.

At this close distance, and with Truly standing in the open doorway above, Styles and Adams could not have passed through the landing without hearing Truly and Baker, or being heard by Truly and Baker.

Do not be taken in by Thomas' weak arguments. Adams and Styles did not see anything because of the dimly lit landing? How did Baker see Oswald in the first place then, if it was so dimly lit? Baker's attention was totally focused on Oswald? Wrong again. The very second Truly opened the vestibule door and leaned in, Baker turned back to look at Truly to ask him if Oswald worked there, to which Truly answered "Yes". The very next moment, Baker and Truly departed the vestibule and continued upstairs. In other words, Truly could only have been leaning through that doorway for a few seconds. Would Baker have not been on the alert for other noises? The man had his gun drawn, and was looking for a killer. The slightest sound would have alerted him.

It is quite easy to see why the WC worked so hard to discredit the testimony of Victoria Adams, going so far as to alter her statement to the FBI to include a sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor that never occurred. She was the one thing that could show the 2nd floor lunch room encounter for the fabrication it was.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Dear Robert,

You sound worried.

--Tommy

PS Why did you send me the harassing Personal Message this morning (at 6:54 AM)? --

"Caught ya"

"You're disinfo and I will [am going to] expose you."

You sound desperate and unbalanced, Bob.

Were you up all night?

Maybe you should get some sleep.

My response (sent a few minutes ago):

"Sounds like a threat.

Don't get too paranoid now.

This should be fun.

--Tommy "

Edited December 8, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Dear Robert,

From his testimony, it sounds like Baker stood inside the enclosed "vestibule" which was between the second floor itself, and the lunch room proper. The vestibule's outer door could have closed behind him. Even if it hadn't, it would have been difficult for Adams and Styles to see him and Truly unless they happened to look in that direction as they were scurrying towards the next flight of downward-leading stairs which was very close to where they "landed" on the second floor. So close, in fact, that they were probably on the second floor landing for only two or three seconds. They were concentrating on getting down stairs as quickly as possible (not wanting to turn their ankles while walking quickly in their 3' heels, they were most likely just looking at the floor in front of them), and probably didn't even look towards the vestibule / lunch room. Even if they did hear Baker's or Truly's voice, they may not have thought there was anything unusual going on in there. And as far as Baker was concerned, his attention was totally focused upon Oswald.

Floor plan of the second floor:

http://jfkassassinat...ibits/ce497.jpg

Photo taken from a point about 10' away from the second floor's stairwells showing the lunchroom's "vestibule" door from the outside. "Warren Commission, Volume XVII: CE 498 - Photograph taken near the stairs of the second floor of the TSBD."

:

--Tommy

****************************************************************************************************************

Thomas and all other members

Please carefully read the following excerpt from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony, and then tell me how you think Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles could have passed through the 2nd floor landing without seeing OR hearing Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, or being seen OR heard by Roy Truly or Marrion Baker:

"Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door."

Does anyone see how this contradicts Mr. Gilbride's theory that Styles and Adams slipped through the 2nd floor landing unnoticed, simply because of his erroneous belief that Truly, Baker and Oswald were in the lunch room, behind a closed vestibule door?

ROY TRULY NEVER WENT THROUGH THE VESTIBULE DOOR AND ALLOWED IT TO CLOSE BEHIND HIM!!

His own words: "I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way." He leaned in, he didn't walk in. Why did he not go trough the 2nd door, and into the lunch room? SIMPLE, Marrion Baker was standing in the lunch room doorway, directly in front of him and holding a gun on Oswald.

Contrary to what WC apologists would have us believe, the alleged 2nd floor lunch room did not occur in the lunch room; it occurred in the vestibule between the lunch room and the 2nd floor landing. Truly would have been standing in the open vestibule doorway (see photo below) and would have been plainly visible to Adams and Styles as they passed through the landing.

At this close distance, and with Truly standing in the open doorway above, Styles and Adams could not have passed through the landing without hearing Truly and Baker, or being heard by Truly and Baker.

Do not be taken in by Thomas' weak arguments. Adams and Styles did not see anything because of the dimly lit landing? How did Baker see Oswald in the first place then, if it was so dimly lit? Baker's attention was totally focused on Oswald? Wrong again. The very second Truly opened the vestibule door and leaned in, Baker turned back to look at Truly to ask him if Oswald worked there, to which Truly answered "Yes". The very next moment, Baker and Truly departed the vestibule and continued upstairs. In other words, Truly could only have been leaning through that doorway for a few seconds. Would Baker have not been on the alert for other noises? The man had his gun drawn, and was looking for a killer. The slightest sound would have alerted him.

It is quite easy to see why the WC worked so hard to discredit the testimony of Victoria Adams, going so far as to alter her statement to the FBI to include a sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor that never occurred. She was the one thing that could show the 2nd floor lunch room encounter for the fabrication it was.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Dear Robert,

You sound worried.

--Tommy

PS Why did you send me the harassing Personal Message this morning (at 6:54 AM)? --

"Caught ya"

"You're disinfo and I will expose you."

You sound desperate and unbalanced, Bob.

Were you up all night?

Maybe you should get some sleep.

My response (sent a few minutes ago):

"Sounds like a threat.

Don't get too paranoid now.

This should be fun.

--Tommy "

Yup, truth hurts, don't it.

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Robert,

From his testimony, it sounds like Baker stood inside the enclosed "vestibule" which was between the second floor itself, and the lunch room proper. The vestibule's outer door could have closed behind him. Even if it hadn't, it would have been difficult for Adams and Styles to see him and Truly unless they happened to look in that direction as they were scurrying towards the next flight of downward-leading stairs which was very close to where they "landed" on the second floor. So close, in fact, that they were probably on the second floor landing for only two or three seconds. They were concentrating on getting down stairs as quickly as possible (not wanting to turn their ankles while walking quickly in their 3' heels, they were most likely just looking at the floor in front of them), and probably didn't even look towards the vestibule / lunch room. Even if they did hear Baker's or Truly's voice, they may not have thought there was anything unusual going on in there. And as far as Baker was concerned, his attention was totally focused upon Oswald.

Floor plan of the second floor:

http://jfkassassinat...ibits/ce497.jpg

Photo taken from a point about 10' away from the second floor's stairwells showing the lunchroom's "vestibule" door from the outside. "Warren Commission, Volume XVII: CE 498 - Photograph taken near the stairs of the second floor of the TSBD."

:

--Tommy

****************************************************************************************************************

Thomas and all other members

Please carefully read the following excerpt from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony, and then tell me how you think Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles could have passed through the 2nd floor landing without seeing OR hearing Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, or being seen OR heard by Roy Truly or Marrion Baker:

"Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door."

Does anyone see how this contradicts Mr. Gilbride's theory that Styles and Adams slipped through the 2nd floor landing unnoticed, simply because of his erroneous belief that Truly, Baker and Oswald were in the lunch room, behind a closed vestibule door?

ROY TRULY NEVER WENT THROUGH THE VESTIBULE DOOR AND ALLOWED IT TO CLOSE BEHIND HIM!!

His own words: "I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way." He leaned in, he didn't walk in. Why did he not go trough the 2nd door, and into the lunch room? SIMPLE, Marrion Baker was standing in the lunch room doorway, directly in front of him and holding a gun on Oswald.

Contrary to what WC apologists would have us believe, the alleged 2nd floor lunch room did not occur in the lunch room; it occurred in the vestibule between the lunch room and the 2nd floor landing. Truly would have been standing in the open vestibule doorway (see photo below) and would have been plainly visible to Adams and Styles as they passed through the landing.

At this close distance, and with Truly standing in the open doorway above, Styles and Adams could not have passed through the landing without hearing Truly and Baker, or being heard by Truly and Baker.

Do not be taken in by Thomas' weak arguments. Adams and Styles did not see anything because of the dimly lit landing? How did Baker see Oswald in the first place then, if it was so dimly lit? Baker's attention was totally focused on Oswald? Wrong again. The very second Truly opened the vestibule door and leaned in, Baker turned back to look at Truly to ask him if Oswald worked there, to which Truly answered "Yes". The very next moment, Baker and Truly departed the vestibule and continued upstairs. In other words, Truly could only have been leaning through that doorway for a few seconds. Would Baker have not been on the alert for other noises? The man had his gun drawn, and was looking for a killer. The slightest sound would have alerted him.

It is quite easy to see why the WC worked so hard to discredit the testimony of Victoria Adams, going so far as to alter her statement to the FBI to include a sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor that never occurred. She was the one thing that could show the 2nd floor lunch room encounter for the fabrication it was.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Dear Robert,

You sound worried.

--Tommy

PS Why did you send me the harassing Personal Message this morning (at 6:54 AM)? --

"Caught ya"

"You're disinfo and I will [am going to] expose you."

You sound desperate and unbalanced, Bob.

Were you up all night?

Maybe you should get some sleep.

My response (sent a few minutes ago):

"Sounds like a threat.

Don't get too paranoid now.

This should be fun.

--Tommy "

corrected and bumped

PS I learned a long time ago that "I will [do something]" suggests that the speaker has just now made a spontaneous decision to do something, whereas "I am going [to do something]" suggests that he or she has been thinking about it for some time and has made plans to do something.

So please tell us, Bob, what do you have planned? (After you get some sleep, of course.)

Should I call a lawyer yet?

Or is this just a clever way for you to get kicked off this forum so you can "save face"?

--Tommy

Edited December 8, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

Do not be taken in by Thomas' weak arguments.

[...]

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Dear Robert,

You sound worried.

--Tommy

PS Why did you send me the harassing Personal Message this morning (at 6:54 AM)? --

Subject title: "Caught ya"

Message: "You're disinfo and I will [am going to] expose you."

You sound desperate and unbalanced, Bob.

Were you up all night?

Maybe you should get some sleep.

Here's my response (sent a few minutes ago):

" Sounds like a threat.

Don't get too paranoid now.

This should be fun.

--Tommy "

corrected and bumped

PS I learned a long time ago that "I will [do something]" suggests that the speaker has just now made a spontaneous decision to do something, whereas "I am going [to do something]" suggests that he or she has been thinking about it for some time and has made plans to do something.

So please tell us, Bob, what do you have planned? (After you get some sleep, of course.)

Should I call a lawyer yet?

Or is this just a clever way for you to get kicked off this forum so you can "save face"?

--Tommy

corrected in the previous post; edited and bumped for Prudhomme

PS Let me guess, Bob. Any intelligent student or researcher who has an excellent command of the English language and disagrees with you on a consistent basis is, by definition, "disinfo," i.e. a "disinformation agent," right? And the phrase "disinformation agent," when used to describe a contributing member of a JFK assassination forum, is generally accepted to mean "a person who is paid to intentionally mislead other students and researchers of the JFK assassination." Correct? Or do you think I do it for free?

That's ridiculous, Bob. How do you think I can afford all these Ferraris and Lamborghinis?

LOL

Edited December 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Richard Gilbride]

Robert,

Tommy aptly sums up my position in that I don't think Truly would volunteer any information about hearing Adams & Styles even if he had, i.e. he's the leader of the TSBD conspirators, wanting to keep the intel to a minimum, so why drag A & S into it? And Baker wouldn't be interrupted from his gun-in-the-belly inquiry of Oswald even if he did happen to hear muffled high heels outside on the landing. It did not apply to his present gestalt.

The vestibule door had recently been installed- its grain pattern is fresh and strong- and I do believe the purpose was to keep the racket from the stairs down to a manageable level. So that office workers could eat their lunches in relative tranquility.

The pneumatic door device closed the door completely in only a few seconds. This was not the plush model of pneumatic closers you occasionally find today- those puppies can take forever and a day.

Truly was at the lunchroom doorframe for about 15-20 seconds, arriving inside the vestibule just after Baker, who estimated he spent 30 seconds inside the vestibule/lunchroom area. You'll find a picture of this standard pneumatic closing device in the old ROKC archives thread "The Lunchroom Incident Revisited". Somewhere in the early pages Colin Crow found it from the Secret Service re-enactment film.

***********************************

TRULY: I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Oswald.

Belin never bothered to specifically ask whether, after Truly leaned in, he stepped in and allowed the vestibule door to close. That detail mattered little or nothing to the testimony, which was about Baker confronting Oswald.

If Truly had stayed frozen in time, leaning in and watching the Baker/Oswald interaction, how could he see Oswald's facial expression and the fact that Baker had a gun in Oswald's gut? They weren't in profile to Truly's point-of-view, because if they were, Baker and Oswald would both be 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. This wasn't what Truly described- he described Baker just inside the doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. The details Truly was able to garner came from moseying up to them. He crossed about 7-8 feet of vestibule floorspace and the vestibule door closed behind him.

[Richard Gilbride]

Vanessa,

I pointed out that you make no allowances for Baker's having been out to Parkland & Love Field, nor his probable mental lapse when he sat down and started composing his affidavit.

It is your hyperbole that is spinning this into an argument that I think Baker was "too stupid and confused"... You are exaggerating a perceived chink of light in Fritz's testimony that seems to you to favor a lunchroom-hoax interpretation. And completely ignoring the list of evidence that the hoaxers have to bend way out of whack in order to be able to fit it into the supports-the-hoax column.

A hypothesis must account for the totality of evidence. You refuse to go there, and prefer the safety of your tribe. We don't have much more to discuss if you want to hide behind the ROKC hoax promulgators.

[Richard Gilbride]

Ray,

Baker, having been up a bunch of stairs outside to reach what was to him the 2nd floor (for all he knew), soon ascended one flight of a split-level stairway, and did not know whether he was on the 3rd or 4th floor. We have the benefit of diagrams today to see that his description is way off the mark. He was not going to night school studying to be an architect.

The stairs were a big part of his recollection of the TSBD building while filling out his affidavit. After all, he had climbed them from the 1st to the 5th. Once he reached the top of the first set of stairs, which he had described being on the "3rd or 4th floor", he didn't see a man walking toward the stairway, did he?

You're taking a poor description that does give the hunch that perhaps the lunchroom incident was hoaxed, but this claim requires proof, not just a collection of more hunches. Each facet of the hoax hypothesis has a reasonable, mundane alternative explanation readily available. And several facets have to be completely distorted in order to fit a possible hoax scenario. Look at them, please, they are listed in post #120.

You have fallen for this mullarkey, it leads only to imaginary encounters and fruitless speculation. But hey, it's only a homicide case, let's indulge in sophistry as much as possible, right? Life's too short for achievable answers that will sustain.

[Greg Burnham]

Now Dawn, perhaps you should consult with a legal expert before making a statement like that. Because I’m sure they’ll tell you that legally-speaking it is not very nice to call someone a lying person.

ROFLMAO!

[Thomas Graves]

Robert,

Tommy aptly sums up my position in that I don't think Truly would volunteer any information about hearing Adams & Styles even if he had, i.e. he's the leader of the TSBD conspirators, wanting to keep the intel to a minimum, so why drag A & S into it? And Baker wouldn't be interrupted from his gun-in-the-belly inquiry of Oswald even if he did happen to hear muffled high heels outside on the landing. It did not apply to his present gestalt.

The vestibule door had recently been installed- its grain pattern is fresh and strong- and I do believe the purpose was to keep the racket from the stairs down to a manageable level. So that office workers could eat their lunches in relative tranquility.

The pneumatic door device closed the door completely in only a few seconds. This was not the plush model of pneumatic closers you occasionally find today- those puppies can take forever and a day.

Truly was at the lunchroom doorframe for about 15-20 seconds, arriving inside the vestibule just after Baker, who estimated he spent 30 seconds inside the vestibule/lunchroom area. You'll find a picture of this standard pneumatic closing device in the old ROKC archives thread "The Lunchroom Incident Revisited". Somewhere in the early pages Colin Crow found it from the Secret Service re-enactment film.

***********************************

TRULY: I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Oswald.

Belin never bothered to specifically ask whether, after Truly leaned in, he stepped in and allowed the vestibule door to close. That detail mattered little or nothing to the testimony, which was about Baker confronting Oswald.

If Truly had stayed frozen in time, leaning in and watching the Baker/Oswald interaction, how could he see Oswald's facial expression and the fact that Baker had a gun in Oswald's gut? They weren't in profile to Truly's point-of-view, because if they were, Baker and Oswald would both be 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. This wasn't what Truly described- he described Baker just inside the doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. The details Truly was able to garner came from moseying up to them. He crossed about 7-8 feet of vestibule floorspace and the vestibule door closed behind him.

Richard,

It's obvious (to me) that if Oswald (standing in a corner of the entranceway alcove during the shooting) went up to the second floor lunch room (via the front stairs or the passenger elevator), immediately after the assassination, the only plausible reason for his doing so was either to buy a soft drink (or candy) or perhaps to meet with (or find?) someone on the second floor. I can't see a "box" for empty bottles in the lunch room, but it's logical that there was one there. If so, I suppose it's possible he came to the lunchroom just to return his empty bottle (if he had one).

Do you think he went up there to buy a soft drink? To return a bottle? To buy some candy?

If so, do you think that was a reasonable thing for him to do at that particular time, instead of staying downstairs and watching on the wild goings on taking place outside?

Another idea: Do you think it's possible that Oswald (having just come up from downstairs) was passing through the lunch room when Baker spotted him through the vestibule door's window, and was on his way to somewhere else, perhaps even to a higher floor?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited December 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert,

Tommy aptly sums up my position in that I don't think Truly would volunteer any information about hearing Adams & Styles even if he had, i.e. he's the leader of the TSBD conspirators, wanting to keep the intel to a minimum, so why drag A & S into it? And Baker wouldn't be interrupted from his gun-in-the-belly inquiry of Oswald even if he did happen to hear muffled high heels outside on the landing. It did not apply to his present gestalt.

The vestibule door had recently been installed- its grain pattern is fresh and strong- and I do believe the purpose was to keep the racket from the stairs down to a manageable level. So that office workers could eat their lunches in relative tranquility.

The pneumatic door device closed the door completely in only a few seconds. This was not the plush model of pneumatic closers you occasionally find today- those puppies can take forever and a day.

Truly was at the lunchroom doorframe for about 15-20 seconds, arriving inside the vestibule just after Baker, who estimated he spent 30 seconds inside the vestibule/lunchroom area. You'll find a picture of this standard pneumatic closing device in the old ROKC archives thread "The Lunchroom Incident Revisited". Somewhere in the early pages Colin Crow found it from the Secret Service re-enactment film.

***********************************

TRULY: I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Oswald.

Belin never bothered to specifically ask whether, after Truly leaned in, he stepped in and allowed the vestibule door to close. That detail mattered little or nothing to the testimony, which was about Baker confronting Oswald.

If Truly had stayed frozen in time, leaning in and watching the Baker/Oswald interaction, how could he see Oswald's facial expression and the fact that Baker had a gun in Oswald's gut? They weren't in profile to Truly's point-of-view, because if they were, Baker and Oswald would both be 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. This wasn't what Truly described- he described Baker just inside the doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. The details Truly was able to garner came from moseying up to them. He crossed about 7-8 feet of vestibule floorspace and the vestibule door closed behind him.

You forget one small detail, Richard.

When Truly realized Baker was not behind him on the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, he returned to the 2nd floor landing to see what became of Baker. He described what happened next to the Warren Commission:

"Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24."

In other words, if the vestibule door was closed, it was definitely NOT a soundproof door, if Truly could hear Baker and Oswald speaking through it.

By his own testimony, Truly only leaned through the vestibule door long enough for Baker to turn back to him and ask "This man work here?" to which Truly replied "Yes". Five little words, all one syllable words, then Truly said they departed for the 3rd floor "immediately". Your estimation of Truly being inside the vestibule for 20-30 seconds is a gross exaggeration, when you consider it only took Baker 20 seconds to race his motorcycle to a point 45 feet from the TSBD steps, park it, dismount and run all the way to the TSBD front entrance, throwing people out of the way, as Baker described it.

No, Truly stated he opened the door back and leaned in. He said nothing about going through the door, and why would he? Baker was only a couple of feet from him in the lunch room doorway. How did Truly know Baker was holding a revolver to Oswald's stomach, without going further than the vestibule doorway? It's all in Truly's testimony, Richard.

"Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right."

Roy Truly can be forgiven for putting the cart before the horse, as this was indeed a tense moment, but his description could have been accurate. When Marrion Baker turned to speak with Truly, he most likely turned his whole upper body and exposed the revolver in his right hand.

Getting back to the lack of soundproofing in the vestibule door, and the short (much shorter than you think) duration of Truly's foray into the vestibule, we again are faced with a problem. If the vestibule door was closed, as you seem to believe despite a complete lack of evidence to support this notion, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles would still have heard the exchange between Baker and Truly, through the closed door, as they passed through the 2nd floor landing. As you may be aware, sound will travel through a door equally well in both directions.

From the WC testimony of Victoria Adams:

"Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.

Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?

Miss ADAMS - Correct"

Edited December 9, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Robert,

Tommy aptly sums up my position in that I don't think Truly would volunteer any information about hearing Adams & Styles even if he had, i.e. he's the leader of the TSBD conspirators, wanting to keep the intel to a minimum, so why drag A & S into it? And Baker wouldn't be interrupted from his gun-in-the-belly inquiry of Oswald even if he did happen to hear muffled high heels outside on the landing. It did not apply to his present gestalt.

The vestibule door had recently been installed- its grain pattern is fresh and strong- and I do believe the purpose was to keep the racket from the stairs down to a manageable level. So that office workers could eat their

Edited December 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert,

Tommy aptly sums up my position in that I don't think Truly would volunteer any information about hearing Adams & Styles even if he had, i.e. he's the leader of the TSBD conspirators, wanting to keep the intel to a minimum, so why drag A & S into it? And Baker wouldn't be interrupted from his gun-in-the-belly inquiry of Oswald even if he did happen to hear muffled high heels outside on the landing. It did not apply to his present gestalt.

The vestibule door had recently been installed- its grain pattern is fresh and strong- and I do believe the purpose was to keep the racket from the stairs down to a manageable level. So that office workers could eat their lunches in relative tranquility.

The pneumatic door device closed the door completely in only a few seconds. This was not the plush model of pneumatic closers you occasionally find today- those puppies can take forever and a day.

Truly was at the lunchroom doorframe for about 15-20 seconds, arriving inside the vestibule just after Baker, who estimated he spent 30 seconds inside the vestibule/lunchroom area. You'll find a picture of this standard pneumatic closing device in the old ROKC archives thread "The Lunchroom Incident Revisited". Somewhere in the early pages Colin Crow found it from the Secret Service re-enactment film.

***********************************

TRULY: I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Oswald.

Belin never bothered to specifically ask whether, after Truly leaned in, he stepped in and allowed the vestibule door to close. That detail mattered little or nothing to the testimony, which was about Baker confronting Oswald.

If Truly had stayed frozen in time, leaning in and watching the Baker/Oswald interaction, how could he see Oswald's facial expression and the fact that Baker had a gun in Oswald's gut? They weren't in profile to Truly's point-of-view, because if they were, Baker and Oswald would both be 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. This wasn't what Truly described- he described Baker just inside the doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. The details Truly was able to garner came from moseying up to them. He crossed about 7-8 feet of vestibule floorspace and the vestibule door closed behind him.

You forget one small detail, Richard.

When Truly realized Baker was not behind him on the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, he returned to the 2nd floor landing to see what became of Baker. He described what happened next to the Warren Commission:

"Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24."

In other words, if the vestibule door was closed, it was definitely NOT a soundproof door, if Truly could hear Baker and Oswald speaking through it.

By his own testimony, Truly only leaned through the vestibule door long enough for Baker to turn back to him and ask "This man work here?" to which Truly replied "Yes". Five little words, all one syllable words, then Truly said they departed for the 3rd floor "immediately". Your estimation of Truly being inside the vestibule for 20-30 seconds is a gross exaggeration, when you consider it only took Baker 20 seconds to race his motorcycle to a point 45 feet from the TSBD steps, park it, dismount and run all the way to the TSBD front entrance, throwing people out of the way, as Baker described it.

No, Truly stated he opened the door back and leaned in. He said nothing about going through the door, and why would he? Baker was only a couple of feet from him in the lunch room doorway. How did Truly know Baker was holding a revolver to Oswald's stomach, without going further than the vestibule doorway? It's all in Truly's testimony, Richard.

"Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right."

Roy Truly can be forgiven for putting the cart before the horse, as this was indeed a tense moment, but his description could have been accurate. When Marrion Baker turned to speak with Truly, he most likely turned his whole upper body and exposed the revolver in his right hand.

Getting back to the lack of soundproofing in the vestibule door, and the short (much shorter than you think) duration of Truly's foray into the vestibule, we again are faced with a problem. If the vestibule door was closed, as you seem to believe despite a complete lack of evidence to support this notion, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles would still have heard the exchange between Baker and Truly, through the closed door, as they passed through the 2nd floor landing. As you may be aware, sound will travel through a door equally well in both directions.

From the WC testimony of Victoria Adams:

"Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.

Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?

Miss ADAMS - Correct"

Dear Robert,

1 ) If you reread Richard's earlier posts, you'll see he never claimed the vestibule door was soundproof.

2 ) How do you know Truly couldn't have seen the gun in Baker's hand, pointing at Oswald's stomach, before Baker turned Truly's way? Truly's testimony actually indicates he could see the gun pointed at Oswald as soon as he reached the vestibule door, and that Baker, realizing that Truly was standing behind him (or at his side) then turned towards Truly to ask him if Oswald worked in that building:

Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

3 ) Rather than there being "a complete lack of evidence" to support Richard's contention the vestibule door was closed behind Baker, Truly, and Oswald, the opposite is actually the case. It was a new, self-closing door!

4 ) Adams and Styles were quickly walking a short distance (from one stairwell to the adjoining stairwell) across a wooden floor in noisy 3" heels, and they were probably talking to each other, as well. No wonder they couldn't hear Baker and Truly talking inside the vestibule, especially if the vestibule door was closed behind them.

--Tommy

You and Gilbride are living in a fantasy world. It would take no more than 5 seconds for Truly to stick his head through the vestibule door, exchange five short words with Baker, and have them immediately leave for the 3rd floor. Period.

Adams and Styles did not have enough time to cross the landing without running into Baker and Truly. Not to mention the astronomical odds against them crossing the landing in the precise five second moment Truly stuck his head into the vestibule.

Remember, Victoria Adams testified to seeing no one on her way down the steps.

Only an idiot or a paid disinfo agent would maintain the 2nd floor lunch room encounter actually occurred.

[Thomas Graves]

Robert,

Tommy aptly sums up my position in that I don't think Truly would volunteer any information about hearing Adams & Styles even if he had, i.e. he's the leader of the TSBD conspirators, wanting to keep the intel to a minimum, so why drag A & S into it? And Baker wouldn't be interrupted from his gun-in-the-belly inquiry of Oswald even if he did happen to hear muffled high heels outside on the landing. It did not apply to his present gestalt.

The vestibule door had recently been installed- its grain pattern is fresh and strong- and I do believe the purpose was to keep the racket from the stairs down to a manageable level. So that office workers could eat their lunches in relative tranquility.

The pneumatic door device closed the door completely in only a few seconds. This was not the plush model of pneumatic closers you occasionally find today- those puppies can take forever and a day.

Truly was at the lunchroom doorframe for about 15-20 seconds, arriving inside the vestibule just after Baker, who estimated he spent 30 seconds inside the vestibule/lunchroom area. You'll find a picture of this standard pneumatic closing device in the old ROKC archives thread "The Lunchroom Incident Revisited". Somewhere in the early pages Colin Crow found it from the Secret Service re-enactment film.

***********************************

TRULY: I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Oswald.

Belin never bothered to specifically ask whether, after Truly leaned in, he stepped in and allowed the vestibule door to close. That detail mattered little or nothing to the testimony, which was about Baker confronting Oswald.

If Truly had stayed frozen in time, leaning in and watching the Baker/Oswald interaction, how could he see Oswald's facial expression and the fact that Baker had a gun in Oswald's gut? They weren't in profile to Truly's point-of-view, because if they were, Baker and Oswald would both be 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. This wasn't what Truly described- he described Baker just inside the doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. The details Truly was able to garner came from moseying up to them. He crossed about 7-8 feet of vestibule floorspace and the vestibule door closed behind him.

You forget one small detail, Richard.

When Truly realized Baker was not behind him on the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, he returned to the 2nd floor landing to see what became of Baker. He described what happened next to the Warren Commission:

"Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24."

In other words, if the vestibule door was closed, it was definitely NOT a soundproof door, if Truly could hear Baker and Oswald speaking through it.

By his own testimony, Truly only leaned through the vestibule door long enough for Baker to turn back to him and ask "This man work here?" to which Truly replied "Yes". Five little words, all one syllable words, then Truly said they departed for the 3rd floor "immediately". Your estimation of Truly being inside the vestibule for 20-30 seconds is a gross exaggeration, when you consider it only took Baker 20 seconds to race his motorcycle to a point 45 feet from the TSBD steps, park it, dismount and run all the way to the TSBD front entrance, throwing people out of the way, as Baker described it.

No, Truly stated he opened the door back and leaned in. He said nothing about going through the door, and why would he? Baker was only a couple of feet from him in the lunch room doorway. How did Truly know Baker was holding a revolver to Oswald's stomach, without going further than the vestibule doorway? It's all in Truly's testimony, Richard.

"Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right."

Roy Truly can be forgiven for putting the cart before the horse, as this was indeed a tense moment, but his description could have been accurate. When Marrion Baker turned to speak with Truly, he most likely turned his whole upper body and exposed the revolver in his right hand.

Getting back to the lack of soundproofing in the vestibule door, and the short (much shorter than you think) duration of Truly's foray into the vestibule, we again are faced with a problem. If the vestibule door was closed, as you seem to believe despite a complete lack of evidence to support this notion, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles would still have heard the exchange between Baker and Truly, through the closed door, as they passed through the 2nd floor landing. As you may be aware, sound will travel through a door equally well in both directions.

From the WC testimony of Victoria Adams:

"Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.

Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?

Miss ADAMS - Correct"

Dear Robert,

1 ) If you reread Richard's earlier posts, you'll see he never claimed the vestibule door was soundproof.

2 ) How do you know Truly couldn't have seen the gun in Baker's hand, pointing at Oswald's stomach, before Baker turned Truly's way? Truly's testimony actually indicates he could see the gun pointed at Oswald as soon as he reached the vestibule door, and that Baker, realizing that Truly was standing behind him (or at his side) then turned towards Truly to ask him if Oswald worked in that building:

Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

3 ) Rather than there being "a complete lack of evidence" to support Richard's contention the vestibule door was closed behind Baker, Truly, and Oswald, the opposite is actually the case. It was a new, self-closing door!

4 ) Adams and Styles were quickly walking a short distance (from one stairwell to the adjoining stairwell) across a wooden floor in noisy 3" heels, and they were probably talking to each other, as well. No wonder they couldn't hear Baker and Truly talking inside the vestibule, especially if the vestibule door was closed behind them.

--Tommy

You and Gilbride are living in a fantasy world. It would take no more than 5 seconds for Truly to stick his head through the vestibule door, exchange five short words with Baker, and have them immediately leave for the 3rd floor. Period.

Adams and Styles did not have enough time to cross the landing without running into Baker and Truly. Not to mention the astronomical odds against them crossing the landing in the precise five second moment Truly stuck his head into the vestibule.

Remember, Victoria Adams testified to seeing no one on her way down the steps.

Only an idiot or a paid disinfo agent would maintain the 2nd floor lunch room encounter actually occurred.

Dear Robert,

Adams and Styles didn't "cross the landing." They walked the short, curving distance from one stairwell to the adjoining stairwell in the same corner of the building. Then they disappeared down that stairwell. All done wearing 3" heels which must have been very noisy on that wooden floor and on those wooden steps. And they had just heard some gunshots and seen the beautiful Jackie Kennedy crawl up on the back part of the Presidential limousine. Do you think they might have been talking about that, or were they walking downstairs without talking, being as quiet as ... church mice?

You are right about one thing, though, Bob. I am an idiot. I'm a freaking moron and an idiot to try to "talk sense" to you.

--Tommy

PS I think it's against the Forum's Code of Conduct for one member to slander or even "cast aspersions" on another member. Your accusing me of being a "disinfo" in the PM you sent me this morning has been brought to the moderators' attention, not via any PM's I might have sent them about it (I haven't), but by my telling everyone about it in this thread.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Robert,

Tommy aptly sums up my position in that I don't think Truly would volunteer any information about hearing Adams & Styles even if he had, i.e. he's the leader of the TSBD conspirators, wanting to keep the intel to a minimum, so why drag A & S into it? And Baker wouldn't be interrupted from his gun-in-the-belly inquiry of Oswald even if he did happen to hear muffled high heels outside on the landing. It did not apply to his present gestalt.

The vestibule door had recently been installed- its grain pattern is fresh and strong- and I do believe the purpose was to keep the racket from the stairs down to a manageable level. So that office workers could eat their lunches in relative tranquility.

The pneumatic door device closed the door completely in only a few seconds. This was not the plush model of pneumatic closers you occasionally find today- those puppies can take forever and a day.

Truly was at the lunchroom doorframe for about 15-20 seconds, arriving inside the vestibule just after Baker, who estimated he spent 30 seconds inside the vestibule/lunchroom area. You'll find a picture of this standard pneumatic closing device in the old ROKC archives thread "The Lunchroom Incident Revisited". Somewhere in the early pages Colin Crow found it from the Secret Service re-enactment film.

***********************************

TRULY: I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Oswald.

Belin never bothered to specifically ask whether, after Truly leaned in, he stepped in and allowed the vestibule door to close. That detail mattered little or nothing to the testimony, which was about Baker confronting Oswald.

If Truly had stayed frozen in time, leaning in and watching the Baker/Oswald interaction, how could he see Oswald's facial expression and the fact that Baker had a gun in Oswald's gut? They weren't in profile to Truly's point-of-view, because if they were, Baker and Oswald would both be 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. This wasn't what Truly described- he described Baker just inside the doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. The details Truly was able to garner came from moseying up to them. He crossed about 7-8 feet of vestibule floorspace and the vestibule door closed behind him.

You forget one small detail, Richard.

When Truly realized Baker was not behind him on the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, he returned to the 2nd floor landing to see what became of Baker. He described what happened next to the Warren Commission:

"Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24."

In other words, if the vestibule door was closed, it was definitely NOT a soundproof door, if Truly could hear Baker and Oswald speaking through it.

By his own testimony, Truly only leaned through the vestibule door long enough for Baker to turn back to him and ask "This man work here?" to which Truly replied "Yes". Five little words, all one syllable words, then Truly said they departed for the 3rd floor "immediately". Your estimation of Truly being inside the vestibule for 20-30 seconds is a gross exaggeration, when you consider it only took Baker 20 seconds to race his motorcycle to a point 45 feet from the TSBD steps, park it, dismount and run all the way to the TSBD front entrance, throwing people out of the way, as Baker described it.

No, Truly stated he opened the door back and leaned in. He said nothing about going through the door, and why would he? Baker was only a couple of feet from him in the lunch room doorway. How did Truly know Baker was holding a revolver to Oswald's stomach, without going further than the vestibule doorway? It's all in Truly's testimony, Richard.

"Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right."

Roy Truly can be forgiven for putting the cart before the horse, as this was indeed a tense moment, but his description could have been accurate. When Marrion Baker turned to speak with Truly, he most likely turned his whole upper body and exposed the revolver in his right hand.

Getting back to the lack of soundproofing in the vestibule door, and the short (much shorter than you think) duration of Truly's foray into the vestibule, we again are faced with a problem. If the vestibule door was closed, as you seem to believe despite a complete lack of evidence to support this notion, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles would still have heard the exchange between Baker and Truly, through the closed door, as they passed through the 2nd floor landing. As you may be aware, sound will travel through a door equally well in both directions.

From the WC testimony of Victoria Adams:

"Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.

Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?

Miss ADAMS - Correct"

Dear Robert,

1 ) If you reread Richard's earlier posts, you'll see he never claimed the vestibule door was soundproof.

2 ) How do you know Truly couldn't have seen the gun in Baker's hand, pointing at Oswald's stomach, before Baker turned Truly's way? Truly's testimony actually indicates he could see the gun pointed at Oswald as soon as he reached the vestibule door, and that Baker, realizing that Truly was standing behind him (or at his side) then turned towards Truly to ask him if Oswald worked in that building:

Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

3 ) Rather than there being "a complete lack of evidence" to support Richard's contention the vestibule door was closed behind Baker, Truly, and Oswald, the opposite is actually the case. It was a new, self-closing door!

4 ) Adams and Styles were quickly walking a short distance (from one stairwell to the adjoining stairwell) across a wooden floor in noisy 3" heels, and they were probably talking to each other, as well. No wonder they couldn't hear Baker and Truly talking inside the vestibule, especially if the vestibule door was closed behind them.

--Tommy

You and Gilbride are living in a fantasy world. It would take no more than 5 seconds for Truly to stick his head through the vestibule door, exchange five short words with Baker, and have them immediately leave for the 3rd floor. Period.

Adams and Styles did not have enough time to cross the landing without running into Baker and Truly. Not to mention the astronomical odds against them crossing the landing in the precise five second moment Truly stuck his head into the vestibule.

Remember, Victoria Adams testified to seeing no one on her way down the steps.

Only an idiot or a paid disinfo agent would maintain the 2nd floor lunch room encounter actually occurred.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Dear Robert,

You make it sound as if Adams and Styles crossed the whole floor. All they did was walk the short, curving distance from one stairwell to the adjoining stairwell, both of which were in the same corner of the building. Then they disappeared down that stairwell. All done while wearing 3" heels which must have been very noisy on that wooden floor and on those wooden steps. They had just heard some gunshots about thirty seconds earlier, heard bystanders screaming down below along the motorcade route, and seen the beautiful Jackie Kennedy crawl up on the back part of the Presidential limousine. Do you think they might have been talking about that, or do you think they were walking downstairs without talking, being as quiet as ... church mice?

You are right about one thing, though, Bob. I am an idiot. I'm a freaking moron and an idiot to try to "talk sense" to you.

--Tommy

PS By the way, I believe it's against the Education Forum's Code of Conduct for one member to libel or even "cast aspersions" on another member. Your accusing me of being a "disinfo" in the PM you sent me at 6:54 this morning has been brought to the moderators' attention, not via any PM's I might have sent them about it (I haven't), but by my telling everyone about it on this thread. (I optimistically assume that some of the moderators read this thread from time to time.)

And now you've really done it -- you've rather foolishly "gone public" and accused me in your most recent post of being either an "idiot" or a "paid disinformation agent." Why? Because I "maintain" that the "2nd floor lunch room encounter" could have "actually occurred."

Way to go, Bob, you're really on a roll.

I have a suggestion for you, Bobby. Go ahead and try to follow through on your threat to "expose" me as a "disinfo" agent." It will be interesting to see what you come up with!

Please?

Pretty please with sugar on it?

I really need the money.

edited and bumped for Prudhomme

Edited December 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Vanessa Loney]

Vanessa,

I pointed out that you make no allowances for Baker's having been out to Parkland & Love Field, nor his probable mental lapse when he sat down and started composing his affidavit.

It is your hyperbole that is spinning this into an argument that I think Baker was "too stupid and confused"... You are exaggerating a perceived chink of light in Fritz's testimony that seems to you to favor a lunchroom-hoax interpretation. And completely ignoring the list of evidence that the hoaxers have to bend way out of whack in order to be able to fit it into the supports-the-hoax column.

A hypothesis must account for the totality of evidence. You refuse to go there, and prefer the safety of your tribe. We don't have much more to discuss if you want to hide behind the ROKC hoax promulgators.

Richard

And I pointed out that your argument is inherently flawed.

If Baker was confused about what happened with Oswald a few hours afterwards because he’d been out to Parkland and Love Field then how much more unreliable is his memory after a few weeks or months?

You cannot have it both ways with Baker. He cannot be an unreliable witness for one version of events and then a reliable witness for a different version of the same events.

If you are going to hang your case for the second floor lunchroom incident on Baker’s faulty memory or perceived lack of intelligence you are relying on a double-edged sword.

“A hypothesis must account for the totality of evidence”. I couldn’t agree more Richard. And I think the movie does a great job of putting all that evidence together in one place as well as adding new information and analysis.

I'm focussing on Baker's same day statement and Fritz's WC testimony because I think it puts in a nutshell what Baker really saw that day and what happened to his statement.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Vanessa Loney