David Josephs Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 20 hours ago, Adam Johnson said: the space available for bullet trajectory to enter the back and avoid striking bone "Dr. Humes said that no major blood vessels were struck by the bullet passing through the President's neck." -Pierre Finck. A 6.75mm bullet is about .25" in diameter which in turn would leave a .25" channel thru the body - not counting the shock waves or any tumbling... Thanks Adam... 1st) the two wounds did not connect and 2nd) the bullt RISES from back to front.... you're not really suggesting it's possible.. right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Johnson Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Hi David, This is just a quick reply as I'm off to work shortly and will reply in full in about 8 hours.... But i do not believe the bullet that struck the president in the back went on to hit Gov. Connally. My opinions on what and where that bullet went have troubled me for the last 19 years...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Adam Johnson said: Hi David, This is just a quick reply as I'm off to work shortly and will reply in full in about 8 hours.... But i do not believe the bullet that struck the president in the back went on to hit Gov. Connally. My opinions on what and where that bullet went have troubled me for the last 19 years...... This is according to Paul O'Connor... the testimony from KNUDSEN suggests the same thing as he talked about the probes thru the body from both back and front. Mr. Purdy. Where did the probes go through the body? Mr. Knudsen. From the point where the projectile entered to the point where the projectile left. Mr. Purdy. Where were those two points?Mr. Knudsen. I did not say they were two points Mr. Purdy. Was there one probe that you saw through the body, or were there more than one? Mr. Knudsen. More than one. Mr. Knudsen. Right about where the neck-tie is. That would be somewhere in that vicinity. Mr. Purdy. Approximately how much lower than that would you say the other probe, which went through the chest cavity? Mr. Knudsen. I would put it six, seven inches. Mr. Purdy. The probe that you said you could see coming out of the neck, the front of the neck, where was it out of the back of the neck? How high up would you say that one was. Mr. Knudsen. About the base of the neck. ... so if we remember our Bethesda details... Lipsey who flew over with Wehle claims THEY took JFK to Bethesda Yet Lipsey's depiction does not include the hole lower in the back.. while describing 3 bullets hitting JFK.. right-side head, lower head and upper neck... "Part blown away - would #1" "entrance of Bullet #2" "-entrance of Bullet #3" (not in order) After the assassination, Lipsey said that he and Wehle met the body at Andrews Air Force Base and placed it in a hearst-to be transported to Bethesda Naval Hospital. Lipsey mentioned that he and Wehle then flew by helicopter to Bethesda and took JFK into the back of Bethesda. A decoy hearst had been driven to the front. After bringing the body into Bethesda, Lipsey said that Jackie Kennedy and the family entered the front of Bethesda and travelled to the "Presidential suite." (DJ-so who was in the decoy?) (see bottom for Bethesda Org Chart) After the assassination, Lipsey said that he and Wehle met the body at Andrews Air Force Base and placed it in a hearst-to be transported to Bethesda Naval Hospital. Lipsey mentioned that he and Wehle then flew by helicopter to Bethesda and took JFK into the back of Bethesda. A decoy hearst had been driven to the front. After bringing the body into Bethesda, Lipsey said that Jackie Kennedy and the family entered the front of Bethesda and travelled to the "Presidential suite." and you may have seen this - yet another of the missing bullets that were fired into the limo.. this is DURING the autopsy in DC Edited January 8, 2019 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Johnson Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Hi David, Who has written the page in blue ink above.....Is this Paul O Conners notes on who was in the autopsy room at various stages on Nov 22nd and 23rd 1963? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) On 1/1/2019 at 11:36 AM, Chris Davidson said: The actual throat wound height off the ground would have been 41.905" - 1.485 1.62 (2.665 2.8 - 1.18) = 40.42" 40.285" Frazier documented the windshield damage at 14.5" below the windshield top. The limo roof was 57" 57" - 14.5" = 42.5" Windshield damage was approx 42.5" - 40.42" 40.285 = 2.08" 2.215" above the throat wound = a slight downward trajectory from approx 315ft 399ft away. Shooter on the TSBD 6th floor west end say hello to your friend in the carpark upon the south knoll. Added on edit: Corrected to match original post. The 315ft measurement was down to the sidewalk. Sorry about that. 133yds to the top of the south knoll. .505 sec x 18.3 = 9.2415 frames x 1.041ft per frame (average limo speed z210-z222) = 9.62ft + .58ft (7 inches = torso depth) = 10.2ft z207 = Station# 3+71.1 Shot#1 = Station# 3+81.3 = Elevation 423.07 10.2ft 423.07 + 3.54ft (42.5inch above ground bullet hole in windshield) = Elevation 426.61 Handrail on the Triple Overpass = Elevation 428.40 1.79ft z207 - 12 minutes = .2degrees .2degrees at an elevation 1.39ft above the south knoll, its elevation = 426 (using Drommer plat.) Elevation 426 + 1.39 = 427.39 = shooter rifle barrel elevation, pulling trigger at approx z207. Barrel is approx 1 foot lower than the Overpass handrail. Bullet hits windshield, fragments, slows down to approx (741 x .724 ft per sec) 536ft per sec, deviates downward 2.08inches and strikes JFK's throat. Edited August 23, 2019 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 8 hours ago, Adam Johnson said: Hi David, Who has written the page in blue ink above.....Is this Paul O Conners notes on who was in the autopsy room at various stages on Nov 22nd and 23rd 1963? lol... that's just me trying to understand who reports to who at Bethesda... thought I'd share it - maybe would help someone else put things into perspective... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Johnson Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Hi Chris, Your work on this is amazing and very much appreciated. I have a challenge for you, I really hope if you get the chance you can look at the following for me and break down the measurements in distance and elevations from street level(most of which i believe you have probably already calculated)......just need to formulate my request into a logical understandable form. OK here we go.. Chris what i would like to achieve here is a list of measurements that if someone was to go to Dealey Plaza today and anchor a spot on the ground directly below the mid point of the 6th floor snipers window at street level. Then using this as our axis point run a tape measure so they could stand at the exact location on Elm Street and at the height you calculate, place a stand/tripod(for lack of a better word or implement name) at the height of JFK's throat wound(back wound point is under to much conjecture). I guess what I'm trying to achieve here is a kind of "follow the bouncing ball" where the ball is actually JFK's throat wound and the bouncing is its movement down Elm Street. The distance or section of the drive down Elm St I am interested in is from Z207 to Z226 I would like to plot each of these points in distance and height then later this year i hope to be in Dallas to conduct an experiment to see just where a laser pointer would strike on the surrounding buildings if placed facing backwards at specific angles (which i will be calculating from the photos of JFK's clothing). Basically i will be constructing a plastic housing that for want of a better description would look like like a cheer leaders bull horn only it would fit in the palm of your hand (roughly the size of a pen)....it will represent the size of a 6.35mm diameter exit hole on one end and then a slightly larger perhaps 10.5mm diameter opposite end thru which the laser pointer will be shone thru. The side walls of the tube helping to narrow the range finding of the beam. Anyway I hope you are able to assist, Many Thanks , Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Johnson Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) On 1/8/2019 at 9:42 AM, David Josephs said: "Dr. Humes said that no major blood vessels were struck by the bullet passing through the President's neck." -Pierre Finck. A 6.75mm bullet is about .25" in diameter which in turn would leave a .25" channel thru the body - not counting the shock waves or any tumbling... Thanks Adam... 1st) the two wounds did not connect and 2nd) the bullt RISES from back to front.... you're not really suggesting it's possible.. right? Here's an interesting one for us David, Case Report A 32-year-old male reported to the casualty of our centre, approximately 2 hours after sustaining a single gunshot wound to the left posterior cervical region of the neck. His chief complaint was neck pain. No neurological deficit was noted on examination. He was conscious. Sensory examination was intact for pin xxxxx and light touch throughout, and the vital signs were within normal limits. The bullet entrance wound was in the left posterior cervical region of the neck, above and medial to the scapula. No possible exit wound for the bullet could be identified anywhere else on the head and neck region. The patient had not seen the assailant as it was night time and the bullet had been fired from behind his back. Because of the same reason, neither the type of weapon used to fire the bullet, nor the distance between the weapon and the patient was known and could not be judged. Both carotid pulses were palpable, and there were no carotid bruits. Initial radiographic (Figs. 1, ,2)2) and CT scan (Figs. 3, ,4)4) studies showed a bullet fragment in the left side of the neck at the levels of C6 and C7. It appeared to be a civilian gunshot injury. Mechanism of Injury Gunshot Wounds Cause Injury by three mechanisms—direct tissue injury, temporary cavitation and transmission of shock waves. High velocity bullet wounds tend to follow a direct and predictable pathway, while low velocity bullets have a more erratic trajectory. Also, bullets have rotational characteristics that increase the possibility of an unusual and unpredictable course after impact. The rotation and tumbling of the projectile causes increased direct tissue damage Edited January 14, 2019 by Adam Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 7 hours ago, Chris Davidson said: 133yds to the top of the south knoll. .505 sec x 18.3 = 9.2415 frames x 1.041ft per frame (average limo speed z210-z222) = 9.62ft + .58ft (7 inches = torso depth) = 10.2ft z207 = Station# 3+71.1 Shot#1 = Station# 3+81.3 = Elevation 423.07 10.2ft Taking into consideration the 10.2ft distanced traveled from pull of trigger, the limo drop in elevation = 10.2ft/18.3ft = .557 x 12 inches = 6.68 inch drop. This lead is reflected in CE560 documentation. The problem is, it's supposed to represent a shot from the 6th floor snipers nest with a car traveling at 28+ mph(see CE884 Orange Version z207-z208). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Adam Johnson said: Hi Chris, Your work on this is amazing and very much appreciated. I have a challenge for you, I really hope if you get the chance you can look at the following for me and break down the measurements in distance and elevations from street level(most of which i believe you have probably already calculated)......just need to formulate my request into a logical understandable form. OK here we go.. Chris what i would like to achieve here is a list of measurements that if someone was to go to Dealey Plaza today and anchor a spot on the ground directly below the mid point of the 6th floor snipers window at street level. Then using this as our axis point run a tape measure so they could stand at the exact location on Elm Street and at the height you calculate, place a stand/tripod(for lack of a better word or implement name) at the height of JFK's throat wound(back wound point is under to much conjecture). I guess what I'm trying to achieve here is a kind of "follow the bouncing ball" where the ball is actually JFK's throat wound and the bouncing is its movement down Elm Street. The distance or section of the drive down Elm St I am interested in is from Z207 to Z226 I would like to plot each of these points in distance and height then later this year i hope to be in Dallas to conduct an experiment to see just where a laser pointer would strike on the surrounding buildings if placed facing backwards at specific angles (which i will be calculating from the photos of JFK's clothing). Basically i will be constructing a plastic housing that for want of a better description would look like like a cheer leaders bull horn only it would fit in the palm of your hand (roughly the size of a pen)....it will represent the size of a 6.35mm diameter exit hole on one end and then a slightly larger perhaps 10.5mm diameter opposite end thru which the laser pointer will be shone thru. The side walls of the tube helping to narrow the range finding of the beam. Anyway I hope you are able to assist, Many Thanks , Adam Adam, In essence, it sounds like you are trying to recreate/exact CE884 (There are two versions). Publicly released version: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0464b.htm It is the method that was used originally (on the ground), although once they got their initial starting point (say Z161), I believe they just measured to the next succeeding entry. I do have a brief video of this method starting from Position A to Z161. Will post later if interested. Edited January 9, 2019 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Johnson Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Hey Chris, Thanks for the reply....Do you agree with any of the following measurements?????? Z207 = 163.65 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z212 = 166.05 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z217 = 168.45 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z222 = 170.85 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest 5 Frames = a 2.4 feet increase in distance or Z207 = 174.70 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z212 = 179.33 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z217 = 183.96 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z222 = 188.59 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest 5 frames = 4.63 feet increase in distance Street level to the top of JFK's head = 3.27 feet or Street level to the top of JFK;s head = 4.398 feet Thanks again, Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said: Adam, In essence, it sounds like you are trying to recreate/exact CE884 (There are two versions). Publicly released version: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0464b.htm It is the method that was used originally (on the ground), although once they got their initial starting point (say Z161), I believe they just measured to the next succeeding entry. I do have a brief video of this method starting from Position A to Z161. Will post later if interested. Videos: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bNxJe52IUUt9cr_BPhoy41gDcRf3er3B/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sdECH4XR_tcx8S3tjmiun1uDREeLCBQx/view?usp=sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Adam Johnson said: Hey Chris, Thanks for the reply....Do you agree with any of the following measurements?????? Using the extant Z film and landmarks (Z206.5-z230.5) within, along with the WC (dots = frames) on the survey plat. Z206.5 - z230.5 = approx 23ft 23ft/24frames = .958ft per frame average Z207 = 163.65 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z207 surveyed at 162.34ft -Robert West surveyor Time-Life surveyed first shot impact at 163.65ft - Robert West surveyor Z212 = 166.05 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z217 = 168.45 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z222 = 170.85 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest - 176.75ft Robert West surveyor 5 Frames = a 2.4 feet increase in distance 5frames x .958ft per frame = 4.79ft I believe you're referring to the hypotenuse measurement from the rifle barrel on these next four to 3.27ft above street level. Z207 = 174.70 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest - Robert West 174.88ft Z212 = 179.33 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z217 = 183.96 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest Z222 = 188.59 feet from TSBD ground level below snipers nest - Robert West 188.6ft 5 frames = 4.63 feet increase in distance Street level to the top of JFK's head = 3.27 feet or 3.27ft = bullet mark in JFK's back measured from street level up. Street level to the top of JFK;s head = 4.398 feet = 52.78" Yes agreed, as per WC documentation Thanks again, Adam Adam, Answers in Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Johnson Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Awesome....... Thanks Chris. Have you ever done any comparisons with the yellow curb painted sections on Elm St visible at Z207, Z300, Z358, Z385 or Z435? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 On 1/9/2019 at 12:54 AM, Chris Davidson said: .505 sec x 18.3 = 9.2415 frames x 1.041ft per frame (average limo speed z210-z222) = 9.62ft + .58ft (7 inches = torso depth) = 10.2ft z207 = Station# 3+71.1 Shot#1 = Station# 3+81.3 = Elevation 423.07 10.2ft The range of z210-z222 (12.5ft/12frames = 1.041ft per frame) on CE884 is a little more concentrated than what is possible to measure in terms of stationary landmarks. z206.5 -z230.5 = .958ft per frame iow, z210-Station# 3+73.4 + 7.9ft = Station# 3+81.3 = bullet strike 7.9ft/1.041ft per frame = 7.5888frames = Z217.588 From z207-z217.588 = 10.588frames z207-z217.588 = 10.2ft/10.588frames = .963ft per frame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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