Chris Davidson Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) On 6/24/2019 at 7:59 AM, David Josephs said: Thanks Chris.... So Truly's close call at Little Elm's curb and Position A were removed from Towner using techniques about which David Healy talks... the limo is matted and moved away from the curb...?? Preliminarily, it looks like they were headed towards PositionA. If the limo actually passes thru Position A, it SHOULD be on Towner... no? Yes, if the limo traverses PositionA, it has to be on Towner. Preliminarily, what we see in the extant Towner film ( could still be the limo traversing PositionA ) is manipulated to make it look like it was in the center lane instead. Follow the Elm St. slope. There are not a lot of video clips from this filming position including (car lines) to compare with the extant Towner film. The distance from JFK (within the limo, in this gif) to Position A is the the approx length of the limo = 21.34ft. Edited June 28, 2019 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 The path to PositionA from JFK's location in the previous gif. Rocker panel limo trim angle, pointing towards PositionA, veering off the West path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Looking at Position A and the lane lines... Does that look right to you? Plus, if the turn was wide... wouldn't position C be higher up Houston... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Seems to me the turn was a bit like this.... with a straight line from Position A to Z133... The Queen Mary could not have made the same wide turn to be where it was with the Limo at Z133.... Or Position A is a another Red herring...?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 52 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said: The path to PositionA from JFK's location in the previous gif. Rocker panel limo trim angle, pointing towards PositionA, veering off the West path. David's quote: "Seems to me the turn was a bit like this.... with a straight line from Position A to Z133..." Sorry about that, I should have pulled the limo out of this graphic. It was placed there to represent the limo's orientation to the lane marker and landmarks, representative of what we see in the extant Towner film. If you take my red line that crosses PositionA and create the other half of the triangle drawing down towards Station# 3+00, this would agree with your statement in bold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 That's not Robert West out there. Why would it be? It was never explained to him what PositionA represented. PositionA to extant z161: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sdECH4XR_tcx8S3tjmiun1uDREeLCBQx/view?usp=sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Price Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 I wanted to thank both Chris and David for your fantastic dedication and extremely in depth study of the photographic record and then I have a slightly off topic question. I have studied the films and pictures for a long time and thought that I remembered seeing at least one photo showing both the motorcycle officers on the right of the President's car as it proceeded down Elm St. I'm sure that I have seen two officers on the right on Houston St. I do remember seeing the turn onto Elm and thinking only one of the motorcycle officers was seen, but thought he was later seen. Now, when I started reading your thread on the wide turn and position "A", I was wondering if maybe this forced the officer to either drop back or drop out of formation as I can no longer find a picture with more than one officer alongside or behind the limousine on the right side. I'm sure one of you guys can confirm this one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 On 6/21/2019 at 1:10 PM, Chris Davidson said: More incorporating with Position A: PositionA to extant z161: 50.7ft - 20.65 = 30.05 / 18.3 = 1.642 + 416.83 = 418.472 = extant Z313 Elevation Conversion: 2.77ft - 1.128 = 1.642ft elevation change 30.2 (Station #299-329.2) /18.3 = 1.65 Specter had to fine tune the location of the original extant z313 shot (FBI/SS Dec 1963) in relationship to the Altgen's designated shot, by moving it back east up Elm St an elev of .13ft In doing so, this now synced with the elev span from z133(first limo frame on film) - z161. Think this is a reflection of syncing elevations to an extant film with the limo speed/distance as a variable? Knowing that Station# 234.5(329.2 - 94.7(50.7 + 44)) = Station C and Z166 on the West path = Station# 334.5 = Station# 329.2 (z161/168) + 5.3ft. When is 100ft over frame 166, not 166frames? Usually when 33 are removed from the equation to sync. 100ft/133frames = .751ft per frame x 18.3 = 13.75ft per sec = 9.36mph-7.5(100ft/166frames) = 1.86mph 1.86mph x 1.47 = 2.7342ft per sec x 9.125683sec(167 Towner frames@18.3fps) = 24.951ft After that, look for distance remnants popping up to complete the sync and see if plugging the difference back in matches the desired speed: 24.96ft/33frames = .756ft per frame Close enough for gubermint work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Richard Price said: I wanted to thank both Chris and David for your fantastic dedication and extremely in depth study of the photographic record and then I have a slightly off topic question. I have studied the films and pictures for a long time and thought that I remembered seeing at least one photo showing both the motorcycle officers on the right of the President's car as it proceeded down Elm St. I'm sure that I have seen two officers on the right on Houston St. I do remember seeing the turn onto Elm and thinking only one of the motorcycle officers was seen, but thought he was later seen. Now, when I started reading your thread on the wide turn and position "A", I was wondering if maybe this forced the officer to either drop back or drop out of formation as I can no longer find a picture with more than one officer alongside or behind the limousine on the right side. I'm sure one of you guys can confirm this one way or the other. Thanks Richard. I believe this is what you are looking for: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Chris Davidson said: Preliminarily, what we see in the extant Towner film ( could still be the limo traversing PositionA ) is manipulated to make it look like it was in the center lane instead. Follow the Elm St. slope. There are not a lot of video clips from this filming position including (car lines) to compare with the extant Towner film. The distance from JFK (within the limo, in this gif) to Position A is the the approx length of the limo = 21.34ft. Information I requested from Gary Mack: "In reply to your questions, the camera original Towner film has one splice about 2/3 of the way through the limo turn onto Elm Street. Since the film was never examined by government investigators, the splice was first noticed by Robert Groden, who served as a consultant to the HSCA photo panel in 1978. From what Tina and Jim Towner told me over the years, they had no knowledge of how or when that splice was made. What is known is that the film was developed for them by The Dallas Morning News within a few days of the assassination; available records suggest the film was never seen by investigators until the HSCA. The only other time the film was out of the Towner’s possession was when LIFE magazine borrowed it from them in 1967 for publication in their November issue about Kennedy assassination photographers." Since the Towners have no idea when/how the splice occurred, the "powers that be" had a possible 4 year span to alter their film. How do we know LIFE magazine didn't switch the Towner extant spliced film for a more altered version when preparing their Nov 1967 publication? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Price Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Thanks for the reply Chris. I think what you posted is the only possible view of officer D. L. Jackson's motorcycle. It shows only what appears to be the front of the front wheel. However, when looking at individual frames of the Zapruder film in the sequence (range of 153-158), the wheel appearing does not seem to be similar to the adjacent escort motorcycle and nothing more ever appears. In trying to nail this down, I find there does not appear to be a single image from any angle showing officer Jackson or his motorcycle anywhere on Elm St. before, during or after the assassination. I also searched for depositions or interviews with Jackson. I found a few including a HSCA interview/deposition in which he elaborates on his position, but is extremely vague. He mentions "dropping back 5 or 6 feet" when turning onto Elm St., but then follows up by saying that he has just "rounded the corner and is 15 to 20 feet away from the limo when he sees Connally react to a shot and says he STOPPED his motorcycle. He says he looked to the overpass, saw a policeman with his hands on his hips, looked to his right and rear (TSBD area) and saw people "falling to the ground". Very Confusing and conflicting. If you or anyone else thinks this needs more discussion, maybe it should be moved to a new thread. I do not know how to move it, so feel free to do so if you think it is merited. Thank you. See this link for his interview (this is actually page 2): https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9965#relPageId=14&tab=page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Here are Chaney and Jackson looking up to the right after the shots.... Here they are as well... or am I mistaken and that's not Jackson with Chaney?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Price Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Thanks, David. That's the pictures/video I was thinking of. I was drawing a blank on who photographed/filmed it. That's the Nix film isn't it? I knew I had already went down that rabbit hole a long time ago on the JFK Lancer site. I wish I still had the memory you guys have. Now everyone can get back on track with the alteration in the intersection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 One real mystery is Chaney’s claim of gunning up to the lead car.... it’s repeated by 3 or 4 people.... but appears nowhere in the photographic evidence Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 I had offered an idea to Chris a while back and I think he ran with it... That "133" is a completely arbitrary yet meaningful frame #. It is my feeling that there were well more than 100 frames removed between 132 and 133 based on how long it takes for the motorcycle cop to make the wide turn onto Elm. To get the limo to Position A requires quite a wide turn... Look carefully at Z131 and see the 2 motorcycle cops... CHRIS - IS IT A COINCIDENCE THAT THE CYCLE IN 131 AND THE LIMO IN 133 ARE IN EXACTLY THE SAME PLACE?(132 is blurry) This is 131 and 133... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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