HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.

[Ray Mitcham]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

James Humes may just have been mistaken. After all, he was really busy over the assassination weekend, what with interviewing Oswald, making sure all the letters and parcels got delivered properly, and performing President Kennedy's autopsy.

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Paul Trejo]

14 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Paul

Your theory of Vickie Adams taking 8-10 minutes to make it from the 4th floor window to the 1st floor is completel derailed by this one simple excerpt from her WC testimony, which you continue to ignore, and which I will continue to remind you of, each and ever time you propose your 10 minute theory.

" Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most. "

Robert,

I propose that you are projecting your own assumptions into that exchange.

Without distinguishing NORTH and SOUTH windows, Belin tacitly asked Vickie was how long it took her to get from the NORTH window to the bottom of the stairs below.

The correct answer is "less than one minute."

Yet Vickie was standing at the SOUTH window while she was watching the JFK motorcade.   I think you've ignored that fact.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 6, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I believe that Shelley's and Lovelady's timings were approximate. When added up they equal 7 minutes. Compare that to the 10-minute total estimate in the Shelley interview. Those two numbers -- 7 and 10 -- compare favorably, considering they are approximate.

Victoria Adams arrived at the bottom of the stairs roughly 1.5 minutes after the shooting. Alistair says 2 minutes. Fine... those two approximations are in the same, reasonable, ballpark.

Given those numbers, Victoria Adam's could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs,

Even at the extremes, the timing still doesn't work out. Let's say the Shelley/Lovelady excursion was 5 minutes rather than the 7 to 10 minutes. And that Victoria's trip down the stairs was 3 minutes instead of 1.5 to 2 minutes. There is still a 2 minute difference and so Victoria's encounter with Shelley/Lovelady is still impossible.

And it's not just the timing, Paul. There are many things that make Victoria Adams' WC testimony suspect. I wish you would read about it.

Last but not least, suppose that Victoria Adams' testimony is correct. That would mean that Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies are at least partial fabrications. The fact that they both said that it was 3 minutes from the shooting to the time they left the TSBD stairs kills any hope of their excursion to the west doorway being quick enough that Victoria could have seen them there.

To have any hope of the encounter happening, that Shelley/Lovelady 3-minute delay would have to shrink down to nothing! Okay, so let's assume it was 0 seconds and not 3 minutes. How on earth could they have thought it was 3 minutes instead of 0 seconds? BOTH of them? With the reminder that Gloria Calvery couldn't have gotten there in such a short period of time?

Sandy,

I still maintain that Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker are all telling the truth -- it is only the traditional MISREADING of their WC testimony that is in error.

You say we can't have it BOTH ways -- but that presumes that you are READING them correctly.

I maintain that you, like Alistair and Robert, are MISREADING the testimony of Vickie Adams, and ignoring that Belin is speaking about a NORTH window and a SOUTH window, even though he (deliberately) confuses Vickie by saying, "the window."

Once we realize that Vickie Adams didn't start moving from the SOUTH window (from which she watched the JFK motorcade) to the NORTH window (which is the window near the stairs) until after 30 seconds -- then we can orient the truth.

There is a window at the SOUTH and a window at the NORTH.   That is literally true.   The stairs are near the NORTH window.  Vickie was watching the JFK motorcade from the SOUTH window.

When Belin asked Vickie "how long" it would take her to go from "the window" to the first floor, she said "less than one minute."

That is ONLY true if Vickie understood "the window" to mean the NORTH window, which is by the stairs.

It is utterly IMPOSSIBLE for anybody to go from the 4th floor SOUTH window to the NORTH window and THEN down the stairs to the 1st floor in "less than one minute."

So, tradition has simply MISREAD Vickie Adams.  That solves the case.  Shelley and Lovelady were telling the truth, and so was Vickie Adams.   We CAN have it BOTH WAYS.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo  

Edited January 6, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

"James Humes" may just have been mistaken. After all, he was really busy over the assassination weekend, what with interviewing Oswald, making sure all the letters and parcels got delivered properly, and performing President Kennedy's autopsy.

Jeremy,

Perhaps Harry Holmes is innocent -- but I would remind you of one key fact.  It was from Harry Holmes that the DPD first learned of LHO's address at North Beckley, because Harry Holmes,, being the Dallas Postmaster, had LHO's application form dated November 1, 1963, for his PO Box.

HOWEVER -- LHO had written the WRONG NUMBER for this North Beckley rooming house -- yet Harry Holmes gave the DPD the RIGHT NUMBER.

In what universe is that possible?

Remember, too, that Earlene Roberts testified that while LHO was back at his rooming house for only a couple of minutes, changing his shirt and getting his pullover jacket, a DPD police car stopped outside for a few seconds, and beeped the horn twice.  Earlene looked at the DPD car briefly, because she was expecting a visit from a friendly DPD officer on personal business, and it was not him. 

My point is that *somebody* in the DPD already knew LHO's address -- when the TSBD and Roy Truly only had Ruth Paine's address.  Even James Hosty of the FBI (allegedly) was still trying to find LHO's address from Ruth Paine.

So -- to me -- Harry Holmes is still on my suspect list.

But -- let's not get sidetracked -- this thread is about Shelley-Lovelady.   My only point here is that if Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker are all telling the truth, then WHO was lying?  I maintain it was Captain Will Fritz and Harry Holmes -- and their co-conspirators.  That was my point.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Paul Trejo
Holmes, not Humes

[Richard Price]

Paul, are you referring to Postal Inspector Harry Holmes?  The only Humes I know of in relation to the assassination is Dr. Humes from the autopsy.

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul, from your reading of Vickie Adams testimony, how long do you think it took her from the time of the shots to reach the first floor to be in a position to see Shelley/Lovelady?

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul, from your reading of Vickie Adams testimony, how long do you think it took her from the time of the shots to reach the first floor to be in a position to see Shelley/Lovelady?

Alistair,

I would count 2 minutes at the south windows, gossiping, then 1 minute walking to the north side, also looking through windows, and 5 more minutes standing at the north windows by the stair, then 1 minute to walk down with Sandra.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 7, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Richard Price said:

Paul, are you referring to Postal Inspector Harry Holmes?  The only Humes I know of in relation to the assassination is Dr. Humes from the autopsy.

Richard,

Oops... you are entirely correct.  I'm thinking of the Dallas postalI nspector, Harry Holmes.

Thanks for the correction

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 7, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I would count 2 minutes at the south windows, gossiping, then 1 minute walking to the north side, also looking through windows, and 5 more minutes standing at the north windows by the stair, then 1 minute to walk down with Sandra.

Regards 

Cheers for the response Paul, appreciated.

Do you have something of a timeline from that point (reaching the first floor) to re-entering the at the front of the building? 

Regards

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Do you have something of a timeline from that point (reaching the first floor) to re-entering the at the front of the building? 

Regards

Alistair,

Yes, I read Vickie Adams' WC testimony with much interest, and I do have a speculative timeline for her arrival at the 1st floor stairwell, to her leaving the TSBD by a rear exit, and then walking around the building until she returned through the front door of the TSBD. 

My timeline goes roughly like this -- very approximately:

12:30 . Approximate time that JFK was shot.   Vickie and her co-workers on the 4th floor begin looking more earnestly through the many windows on the south, west and north 4th floor walls; watching the increasing chaos near the Grassy Knoll outside, and guessing what might have happened.

12:39 . Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles arrive at the TSBD 1st floor stairwell.  They had seen nobody on the stairs in their quick walk down.  They stood near the stairs, observing the chaos, and worrying whether there were still shooters -- whether outside or inside -- but now observing more people on the 1st floor.  (They did not see Roy Truly or DPD officer Marrion Baker.)

12:40 . At approximately this time, as Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady testified, they entered from the west entrance, which is closest to the stairs, and they met Vickie and Sandra slightly east of the northeast elevator.  The four spoke very briefly about the possibility of a JFK shooting, and they kept moving through all the excitement.

12.42 . Vickie and Sandra exited the TSBD at the Houston Street dock, out the north door, down some stairs towards the rear of the dock.  

12.43 . Vickie and Sandra hurried westward towards the parking lot behind the Grassy Knoll.

12:44 . Once in the parking lots, a DPD officer shouted to them, "Get back to the building!"   Vickie replied, "But we work here."   The officer repeated,  "Tough! Get back!"  Vickie replied, "Was JFK shot?"  The officer shouted, "I don't know! Go back!"   Vickie then said, "All right."

12:46 . Vickie and Sandra returned to the TSBD toward the southwest, toward the front entrance.  

12:47 . Vickie and Sandra noticed several TSBD employees near the front entrance, including Joe Molina and Avery Davis.  They stood there for a few minutes, discussing the chaos and the crowds.  

12:50 . A DPD motorcycle was parked at the corner of Houston and Elm, and Vickie walked over to the motorcycle to hear the DPD police report.  There Vickie heard precisely that shots were fired from the TSBD 2nd or 4th floor.  At this point, Vickie panicked, since she herself had been on the 4th floor.   

12:52 . Vickie decided to get back to her office on the 4th floor, but now there was a DPD officer preventing people from entering the TSBD.  After negotiating with the officer, he let Vickie through.  

12:54 . Vickie pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off.  So, Vickie took the southern stairs to the 2nd floor.

12:55 . Vickie stood on the 2nd floor along with many other TSBD workers, gossiping about the JFK assassination.  

13:00 . Vickie then went to the northwest elevator on the 2nd floor.  Inside there were two men in suits, whom Vickie assumed were Detectives.   The elevator did not operate; so all three walked up the stairs to the 4th floor, where Vickie collected her belongings to prepare to go home. 

Now -- I estimate a full half-hour for all this activity.  Vickie herself, however, testified that all her activity after the JFK shooting occurred in LESS THAN FIVE MINUTES.  

This is why I continue to maintain that many or perhaps most WC witnesses do a very poor job of estimating the TIMING of their interaction with others after the JFK assassination.   People spend more time talking with others than we like to admit, I would suppose. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 7, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Far more important than the Adams-Truly-Baker challenge to the TIMING of the Shelley-Lovelady testimony -- is the flat-out contradiction of the Shelley-Lovelady testimony by FBI agent James Bookhout. 

This is because Bookhout claims that LHO himself claimed that he spoke with Bill Shelley at the front entrance of the TSBD in the minutes after the JFK shooting.   Yet nobody at the TSBD entrance testified that they saw LHO anywhere near the front entrance of the TSBD.  Not Shelley; not Lovelady; not anybody.

This is serious.  Ultimately, FBI agent James Bookhout (along with all those in the LHO interrogation group along with Captain Will Fritz) is accusing Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady of LYING. 

If we really want to defend the honesty of Shelley-Lovelady, we must defend them from James Bookhout and his gang. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 7, 2017 by Paul Trejo
emphasis

[Alistair Briggs]

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

 This is why I continue to maintain that many or perhaps most WC witnesses do a very poor job of estimating the TIMING of their interaction with others after the JFK assassination.   People spend more time talking with others than we like to admit, I would suppose.

I agree that people do a very poor job of estimating time! But surely there has to be some limit to just how poor someone's timing could be in the circumstances.

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Now -- I estimate a full half-hour for all this activity.  Vickie herself, however, testified that all her activity after the JFK shooting occurred in LESS THAN FIVE MINUTES. 

Can a difference between a testified 5 minutes and a posited 30 minutes really be justified as being a very poor job of estimating time?

*For actual clarity, as per your posited timeline above you have put the re-entering of the building at 22 minutes.

Presumable it is the same very poor job of timing on Adams part that has led to you positing that it was 10 minutes after the shots that she had got to the position of seeing Shelley/Lovelady, despite her words in her testimony pointing to that time period being approx. 2 minutes... As per her testimony that would leave another approx. 3 minutes to complete the rest of what she claimed to do from that point until re-entering the building.

As per what her testimony 'reads' 2 minutes + 3 minutes = 5 minutes
As per the timeline you are positing 10 minutes + 12 minutes = 22 minutes

That is a huge diifference! As I said earlier, I agree that people do a very poor job of estimating time... but there has to be a limit.

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

12:40 . At approximately this time, as Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady testified, they entered from the west entrance, which is closest to the stairs, and they met Vickie and Sandra slightly east of the northeast elevator.  The four spoke very briefly about the possibility of a JFK shooting, and they kept moving through all the excitement.

And yet you are saying that that very poor timing doesn't seem to affect Shelley and Lovelady, you are saying that they testified to it being 10 minutes (Sandy's original posited timeline puts it at 7 minutes btw) and you are claiming that as an exact precise time on their part and to reconcile that with Adams testimony you are having to add in an extra 8 minutes to her testified movements which you put down to either a very poor job of timing or sloppy questioning.

Happy to be corrected on that if you feel I am misunderstanding your point of view, Paul?

Regards

[Guest]

22 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Yes,I believe he did. When I said above that Oswald couldn't have been with Shelley after the shooting, I meant after Shelley had visited the rail yards with Lovely. (I must be more careful with how I word things)

As Shelley said they got back to the TSBD after ten minutes, how could Adams have seen them at the elevator on the first floor? She certainly didn't take ten minutes to get down the stairs.

This barrel of fish smells rotten.

 

Sorry, Sandy, just seen your post above.

Right you are Ray Mitcham. Out With Bill Shelley, in front pins Oswald on the steps while the limo passed by.

Shelley left the steps immediately after and came back into the TSBD through a side entrance, so if Oswald, as per Bookhout's statement talked to Shelley afterwards then that places him even longer in the TSBD and gives even  more credence to the initial reports of Oswald being sighted at 12:45 inside the TSBD (which also times with Roger Craig's observation of Oz running down....).

Oswald was the first to leave the building after leaving his details

 

 

This isn't just some TSBD list. Peggy Joyce Hawkins is on this list and she was no TSBD employee. As stated by some everyone who wanted to go had to leave their details at the front door.

Yeah that bus/cab/Mrs Roberts malarky...........

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

Yes, I read Vickie Adams' WC testimony with much interest, and I do have a speculative timeline for her arrival at the 1st floor stairwell, to her leaving the TSBD by a rear exit, and then walking around the building until she returned through the front door of the TSBD. 

My timeline goes roughly like this -- very approximately:

12:30 . Approximate time that JFK was shot.   Vickie and her co-workers on the 4th floor begin looking more earnestly through the many windows on the south, west and north 4th floor walls; watching the increasing chaos near the Grassy Knoll outside, and guessing what might have happened.

12:39 . Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles arrive at the TSBD 1st floor stairwell.  They had seen nobody on the stairs in their quick walk down.  They stood near the stairs, observing the chaos, and worrying whether there were still shooters -- whether outside or inside -- but now observing more people on the 1st floor.  (They did not see Roy Truly or DPD officer Marrion Baker.)

12:40 . At approximately this time, as Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady testified, they entered from the west entrance, which is closest to the stairs, and they met Vickie and Sandra slightly east of the northeast elevator.  The four spoke very briefly about the possibility of a JFK shooting, and they kept moving through all the excitement.

12.42 . Vickie and Sandra exited the TSBD at the Houston Street dock, out the north door, down some stairs towards the rear of the dock.  

12.43 . Vickie and Sandra hurried westward towards the parking lot behind the Grassy Knoll.

12:44 . Once in the parking lots, a DPD officer shouted to them, "Get back to the building!"   Vickie replied, "But we work here."   The officer repeated,  "Tough! Get back!"  Vickie replied, "Was JFK shot?"  The officer shouted, "I don't know! Go back!"   Vickie then said, "All right."

12:46 . Vickie and Sandra returned to the TSBD toward the southwest, toward the front entrance.  

12:47 . Vickie and Sandra noticed several TSBD employees near the front entrance, including Joe Molina and Avery Davis.  They stood there for a few minutes, discussing the chaos and the crowds.  

12:50 . A DPD motorcycle was parked at the corner of Houston and Elm, and Vickie walked over to the motorcycle to hear the DPD police report.  There Vickie heard precisely that shots were fired from the TSBD 2nd or 4th floor.  At this point, Vickie panicked, since she herself had been on the 4th floor.   

12:52 . Vickie decided to get back to her office on the 4th floor, but now there was a DPD officer preventing people from entering the TSBD.  After negotiating with the officer, he let Vickie through.  

12:54 . Vickie pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off.  So, Vickie took the southern stairs to the 2nd floor.

12:55 . Vickie stood on the 2nd floor along with many other TSBD workers, gossiping about the JFK assassination.  

13:00 . Vickie then went to the northwest elevator on the 2nd floor.  Inside there were two men in suits, whom Vickie assumed were Detectives.   The elevator did not operate; so all three walked up the stairs to the 4th floor, where Vickie collected her belongings to prepare to go home. 

Now -- I estimate a full half-hour for all this activity.  Vickie herself, however, testified that all her activity after the JFK shooting occurred in LESS THAN FIVE MINUTES.  

This is why I continue to maintain that many or perhaps most WC witnesses do a very poor job of estimating the TIMING of their interaction with others after the JFK assassination.   People spend more time talking with others than we like to admit, I would suppose. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Nice try, but stumbles at the first hurdle.

Adams and Styles left before the limo went under the triple underpass!

Almost immediately after the shooting.

Read Barry Ernest's book The Girl On The Stairs Paul, that book alone destroys the 2nd floor lunch room fugezi on its own.

And before you retort I'd like to add that I give Barry more credit on this than anyone else due to his decades worth of research on this particular matter. No point in continuing to discuss this any further unless you have read this book.

 

[Alistair Briggs]

Just to add to what Bart said in response to the post from Paul!

I haven't (yet) read Barry Ernest's book 'The Girl On The Stairs' so I can't really comment on the 'left before the limo went under the triple underpass' and I can't really comment on (the book) 'alone destroys the 2nd floor lunch room 'fugezi' on its own' part.

But without reading the book I can agree with Bart about Adams/Styles leaving 'almost immediately after the shooting'.

(Whilst Bart and I may disagree with what 'almost immediatele' actually means, it wouldn't be too far apart )

Edited January 7, 2017 by Alistair Briggs