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# Is that ... (Gasp) ... Billy Lovelady Talking With Gloria Calvery on the Steps?

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4 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I see two arms, one black and one bare, but there seems to be no room for two arms or people.

If I've been following everything correctly... the 'arm' (that looks like it's 'climbing' up the wall) isn't an arm at all, it's actually a woman 'peaking' round the corner. lol I agree that there seems to be no room for two arms or people...

.... or even one person (between W.I.B and "Lovelady"). I will somewhat address that in my response to Tommy's last comment now.

4 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Lovelady was pretty short (5' 6"?), so how about his being two steps above (a tallish?) W.I.B.?

That work for you?

(I do see someone apparently passing between "Lovelady" and W.I.B.)

I've read a few times that Lovelady was 5ft8...

*Here's one example from this link here:

Quote

The following physical description and background information was obtained from interrogation and observation of Lovelady:

 Name: Billy Nolan Lovelady Race: White Sex: Male Born: 2/19/37, Myrtle Springs, Texas Height: 5'8" Weight: 170 Eyes: Green Hair: Brown, thin Build: Medium Complexion: Medium

That's the height I was using to knock up a quick and rough calculation.
5ft 8 = 68 inches
Average human head length 8-9 inches.
Height of TSBD steps approx 7 inches.

At the start of the gif we can see near enough the whole head of the (so called ) "Lovelady" above W.I.B.
I used the figure of 8 inches for 'his' head height

So if they were only 1 step between them (to start with) then W.I.B would be 67 inches tall. (5ft 7)
If there were two steps between them (to start with) then W.I.B would be 74 inches tall. (6ft 2)

*Obviously I am just 'guestimating' the figures.

I reckon that rules out, imo, them being two steps apart though as it would be very unusual for W.I.B to be 6ft 2! Even more unusual for W.I.W (the one ascending the stairs) to be of a very similar height (and she does look to be of very similar heights to W.I.B when she appears to be aside her on the same steps).

P.S. I am just about to respond to Bill's comment, in which I will include a (crude) 'diagram' pointing to what I am currently 'seeing' (and I hope you will appreciate my 'attempt' at humour therein. )
P.P.S At some point I am going to try and match off some of the people in the Wiegman frame with the Darnell/Couch clip in the hope that either W.I.B and/or W.I.W can be 'identified'. (might need some help on that one. )

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1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

It's a woman who is in semi-profile who is looking west towards the RR yard while easing up the stairs.

Took me a while to see it, but now I see her peaking out and then easing up the stairs.

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

That Benny Hill stuff doesn't work like simply removing the glare from the image. It was the over contrasted lighting adjustment of sunlight shining off her shoulders and face that looked like a disjointed arm. What the gif Chris made does is show the stairs through the shadows on  the stairs. May have been Kamp that wanted to argue otherwise, but it is what it is.

I quickly (and crudely) knocked up the following image to show where I am on this at the moment.
(nb: as mentioned in my last response to Tommy, I don't think there is anyone between the W.I.B and the (so called) "Lovelady" character)

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10 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Took me a while to see it, but now I see her peaking out and then easing up the stairs.

I quickly (and crudely) knocked up the following image to show where I am on this at the moment.
(nb: as mentioned in my last response to Tommy, I don't think there is anyone between the W.I.B and the (so called) "Lovelady" character)

Well done Alistair, you'll have this case solved yet!

Yet, I am looking for an Lol or Omg to my Dorothy Hunt sheep or patsy-herder comment. No need to reply; jus sayin. Xol-xo-xo !!!

Edited by Michael Clark
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44 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

If I've been following everything correctly... the 'arm' (that looks like it's 'climbing' up the wall) isn't an arm at all, it's actually a woman 'peaking' round the corner. lol I agree that there seems to be no room for two arms or people...

.... or even one person (between W.I.B and "Lovelady"). I will somewhat address that in my response to Tommy's last comment now.

I've read a few times that Lovelady was 5ft8...

*Here's one example from this link here:

That's the height I was using to knock up a quick and rough calculation.
5ft 8 = 68 inches
Average human head length 8-9 inches.
Height of TSBD steps approx 7 inches.

At the start of the gif we can see near enough the whole head of the (so called ) "Lovelady" above W.I.B.
I used the figure of 8 inches for 'his' head height

So if they were only 1 step between them (to start with) then W.I.B would be 67 inches tall. (5ft 7)
If there were two steps between them (to start with) then W.I.B would be 74 inches tall. (6ft 2)

*Obviously I am just 'guestimating' the figures.

I reckon that rules out, imo, them being two steps apart though as it would be very unusual for W.I.B to be 6ft 2! Even more unusual for W.I.W (the one ascending the stairs) to be of a very similar height (and she does look to be of very similar heights to W.I.B when she appears to be aside her on the same steps).

P.S. I am just about to respond to Bill's comment, in which I will include a (crude) 'diagram' pointing to what I am currently 'seeing' (and I hope you will appreciate my 'attempt' at humour therein. )
P.P.S At some point I am going to try and match off some of the people in the Wiegman frame with the Darnell/Couch clip in the hope that either W.I.B and/or W.I.W can be 'identified'. (might need some help on that one. )

Dear Alistair,

Are you taking into account the very real possibility that "Lovelady" is leaning forward during most of the clip, thereby making him appear to be shorter (and closer to W.I.B.?) than he really was?  When he stands fully upright near the end, it looks like he's at least 10" higher than W.I.B..

BTW, Have you looked at Chris Davidson's other GIF's on this thread, yet?  If so, do you agree with Sandy Larsen and I that "Lovelady" really  is ... Lovelady?

--  Tommy

Edited by Thomas Graves
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On 2/21/2017 at 4:01 AM, Bill Miller said:

I would bet against you because if you were to find that clip that the film capture came from - you would eventually see that when Lovelady comes out of profile to the camera by turning his body slightly that his open long sleeved shirt is unbuttoned and exposed T-Shirt has become visible.

And you would lose the bet....

Quote

I would bet against you because if you were to find that clip that the film capture came from - you would eventually see that when Lovelady comes out of profile to the camera by turning his body slightly that his open long sleeved shirt is unbuttoned and exposed T-Shirt has become visible.

....I did find the clip, and I did find a segment where Lovelady "comes out of profile to the camera by turning his body slightly." And yet I don't see what you claim I would see, "that his open long sleeved shirt is unbuttoned and exposed T-Shirt has become visible."

What I see is what I originally told you, that the shirt is buttoned up. (Unless we are to believe that the shirt is being magically held closed.)

Note the shadow now appearing on Lovelady's chest, primarily on his right half of the chest. Which proves that the right half of the shirt is exposed to the camera in this frame. The following photo can be used as a reference to see where the white tee shirt should be exposed:

Quote

You may note that I said "if you were to find" .... because if someone had that portion of film and merely chose the profile view to claim the shirt was buttoned, then that would be deceitful as I sure you would agree.

Gee Bill, I just posted the image I had available in my collection. I never dreamed someone would accuse me of being deceitful by posting it rather than the one I post here, which I had to go out and find.

Quote

This now brings me to your comment that "Lovelady was known to button up his shirt for no apparent reason. Even when hanging around the TSBD steps." What assassination footage of Lovelady is there showing a frontal view where he didn't have his shirt open for you to have been able to make such a statement?

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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16 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

May Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves feel free to wait for the dust they left me in to clear!

What Bill has pointed to is a vertical white stripe that is located about an inch -- to Lovelady's left -- away from where the white tee shirt would be seen. That is not the center of Lovelady's body.

As for why that and other particular segments of white line are visible when others are not, I cannot explain. As can be seen in the photo below, the white stripes -- both vertical and horizontal -- are all consistently the same width and the same brightness.

For argument's sake, suppose Bill is right about that line being white tee shirt fabric. One has to wonder why no white can be seen above that segment of white. Even though the opening of the shirt should be wider -- a lot wider -- at the neckline. Look at the photo above... no white can be seen at the neckline. Compare to the photo below.

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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

And you would lose the bet....

....because I did find the clip, and I did find a segment where Lovelady "comes out of profile to the camera by turning his body slightly." And yet I don't see what you claim I would see, "that his open long sleeved shirt is unbuttoned and exposed T-Shirt has become visible."

What I see is what I originally told you, that the shirt is buttoned up. (Unless we are to believe that the shirt is being magically held closed.)

Note the shadow now appearing on Lovelady's chest, primarily on his right half of the chest. Which proves that the right half of the shirt is exposed to the camera in this frame. The following photo can be used as a reference to see where the white tee shirt should be exposed:

Gee Bill, I just posted the image I had available in my collection. I never dreamed someone would accuse me of being deceitful by posting it rather than the one I post here, which I had to go out and find.

Nice try .... I will ignore your putting up a photo of Lovelady at a later date where he had his shirt buttoned higher when posing for the photo. We will just say that your hand slipped when that card came off the bottom of the deck.

Now pay close attention to the Martin film on the left. Just as Lovelady turns his head to where is takes a profile position - the gap in his unbuttoned shirt exposes his milk white T-shirt for just a moment. His left hand is down by his hip, so he wasn't unbuttoning his shirt as he twisted towards the camera.

I wish I had access to all my old enhancements and digital movies because this garbage was being defended by the Fetzer crowd many years ago and it was debunked to death. Lovelady's body turn exposing his white T-shirt is enough to show the flaws in your thinking. You choose a still image over a moving one - a poor image over a better one .... all in the name of giving the appearance that Lovelady buttoned up his shirt for that moment and then unbuttoned it soon afterward. That is simply ludicrous in my opinion.

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12 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Also, don't be so quick to use the poorest images to claim to be able to make positive ID's from. For all we know this guy seen above with the BL hairline could be "washout man"

Bill,

No, I didn't misidentify Lovelady.

The Lovelady I identified is the same one you identified in your photo, above. Early on in the video Lovelady was standing on the far right, up above the guy you have labeled as "Lovelady's hairline." Shortly after that Lovelady walks to the west  where we see him in your frame, above.

You can verify this in the video below. You can see Lovelady on the far right at 1:33. This is where I got the frame showing his open shirt. Shortly thereafter, the film shows him walking to the west. By 1:39 we see him where you have him labeled in your frame, above.

So no, I didn't misidentify Lovelady. But congratulations on finding another lookalike. It should be noted, however, that this lookalike isn't standing very near the TSBD stairway. Just compare the size of his head to Lovelady's. He's definitely standing much closer to the camera.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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12 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

am hoping that you didn't just make that up out of thin air so to try and seem correct. They call that "Fake News" these days. That is where someone invents a fact and then attempts to use it to support their position.

Be careful with your accusations, Bill.

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8 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

It's a woman who is in semi-profile who is looking west towards the RR yard while easing up the stairs.

That Benny Hill stuff doesn't work like simply removing the glare from the image. It was the over contrasted lighting adjustment of sunlight shining off her shoulders and face that looked like a disjointed arm. What the gif Chris made does is show the stairs through the shadows on  the stairs. May have been Kamp that wanted to argue otherwise, but it is what it is.

In the still photo it does look like a woman, in profile, looking west.

Problem is, the animated gif has her:

• Rising sideways up the steps. Possible, but awkward.
• With a rather long horizontal tumor (what has been described as All Black Woman's arm) on her back, rising with her.

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Do we all agree that the "arm" cannot belong to All Black Woman? As is apparent in this gif. (BTW, thanks Chris for the gifT.)

Also that the "hand" of the arm is not resting on the wall?

What, then, is that thing? I'm inclined to believe that there is somebody between Lovelady Man and All Black Woman. This person's left arm is extended for some reason as she takes a step up.

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36 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In the still photo it does look like a woman, in profile, looking west.

Problem is, the animated gif has her:

• Rising sideways up the steps. Possible, but awkward.
• With a rather long horizontal tumor (what has been described as All Black Woman's arm) on her back, rising with her.

Looks to me as though she is stepping up and turning to face west at the same time. And considering there is an outcropping there for her to hold onto - it is very possible.

No long horizontal tumor - just a manipulation created when someone bumped up the brightness which expanded the sunlight shining off the clothing on her upper back.

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1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

You choose a still image over a moving one - a poor image over a better one .... all in the name of giving the appearance that Lovelady buttoned up his shirt for that moment and then unbuttoned it soon afterward.

That's enough!

I am seriously considering reporting you to admin for questioning my honesty.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Nice try .... I will ignore your putting up a photo of Lovelady at a later date where he had his shirt buttoned higher when posing for the photo. We will just say that your hand slipped when that card came off the bottom of the deck.

Now pay close attention to the Martin film on the left. Just as Lovelady turns his head to where is takes a profile position - the gap in his unbuttoned shirt exposes his milk white T-shirt for just a moment. His left hand is down by his hip, so he wasn't unbuttoning his shirt as he twisted towards the camera.

Okay, Bill, I agree with you that that white segment you showed me is Lovelady's white tee shirt showing through. But I still maintain that he buttoned his shirt up, and that that is apparent in the video. He obviously missed one button.

BTW, in this photo that you posted:

....you complained that it showed his shirt buttoned up higher than it was in video we're discussing. Well, apparently that is true given that the white strip we see in the video goes down to the button that we see buttoned up here. But in bringing this up, you are inadvertently making my case stronger. The further down the shirt is unbuttoned, the more the tee shirt will be exposed. And yet we see absolutely no white above the strip that you pointed out.

Also BTW, if this is your photo:

....it strengthens my case even more. Look how wide that shirt is open at that point in time. Yet at the later time in the video there is nothing! No white! Except for that short strip where Lovelady apparently missed a button when buttoning up.

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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That's it!

I am seriously considering reporting you to admin for questioning my honesty.

Report away because you either do it on purpose or you are showing to be inept at working with images. The latter was my first thought, but when you make the same mistakes over and over once you have been made aware of them , then one has to wonder but what you are doing it on purpose.

For example:  Just today you posted a Youtube video showing Billy Lovelady moving west on the stairs as seen in the Hughes film. At the very beginning of the walk west on the steps it is very clear that Lovelady's shirt is not buttoned up as his very white T-shirt is quite visible as seen here ...

Before that you made the claim that 'Loveday was known for buttoning up his shirt' and I asked you where did you get that information from ....... still waiting to hear you say that you made that up!

Then there was Lovelady after he moved towards the handrail and I pointed out that when he turns his head to a profile position .... his body turns just enough to give a glimpse of his unbuttoned shirt.  You responded with this, "Note the shadow now appearing on Lovelady's chest, primarily on his right half of the chest. Which proves that the right half of the shirt is exposed to the camera in this frame. The following photo can be used as a reference to see where the white tee shirt should be exposed:" What you said was utter hogwash and to make it worse - you used a different shirt than the one Lovelady wore on the day of the assassination. Did you even study that shirt before you decided to add it to the mix - it certainly doesn't appear so to me!

But even sillier is that the Lovelady who has walked west towards the handrail in just a few steps is the same Lovelady who has his white T-shirt exposed at the onset of his moving to the middle of the steps. That's right ... here is the image used in an illustration that begs the question - where is the white T-shirt at the time of the shooting that should be seen on "washout man"?  (see below)

So until you explain where you got the information that Lovelady is known to button and unbutton his shirt often, then I will say it doesn't fit that Billy has an unbuttoned shirt in the Hughes film as JFK's car comes onto Elm Street - the same is seen in Altgens 6 as the shooting is happening - but before Patrolman Baker can run across the Elm Street extension .... washout man has buttoned up his shirt .....

.... only to unbutton it as before as seen here below.

So instead of sitting up throughout the night posting about me being left in the dust by Thomas Graves ... you may wish to get some sleep so to be refreshed when looking at the photographic evidence. Perhaps then you can look at Lovelady in a newer plaid shirt and spot that the white stripes are only half the width of those on the shirt that Billy had on at the time of the assassination. And that the 11/22/63 shirt had a shirt pocket that the thin white pin striped shirt does not.

And if you do not see these things at first - just wait until the dust settles and eventually you'll figure it out.

Edited by Bill Miller

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