Sandy Larsen Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bernie Laverick said: 2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Michael, In your demonstration you compared the teeth of the corpse to the teeth of Lee Harvey Oswald. That particular photo of Lee Harvey Oswald is one that the H&L group consider to be HARVEY. So all you demonstrated was that you agree with us as far as the matching teeth go. If you want to compare the corpse's teeth to LEE's teeth, so that you can prove the H&L group wrong, then you'll have to do so with a photo we consider to be LEE. But good luck with that because there are no pictures of LEE where his teeth can be clearly seen. In fact, LEE usually didn't smile with teeth showing. Maybe because he was missing one of his front teeth. Oh Sandy what are we going to do with you...? So you now believe that the teeth of the corpse exhumed from that grave are from Harvey's mouth. You can see the match, you say? I didn't really look that close at Michael's presentation, Bernie. It was Michael who said he saw a match. But I'll take his word for it. Quote This is the corpse that somehow had a mastoid operation scar so as to replicate 'Lee's' medical record. You haven't explained how, but let's suppose you are right, let's concede that they somehow faked the mastoidectomy scar. It would be an extreme act don't you think? The plotters would have had to pull off something stunning to do this. But needs must, you say. These people are capable of anything in order to conceal this plot, you say. But damn it! They just couldn't chip one of the teeth so it would match how you interpret 'Lee's' dental status? Really? Why wouldn't they have done that? They did a mastoid operation either when 'Harvey' was six, or they did it when he was dead, according to you. But they didn't make sure to chip one of 'Harvey's' teeth? Numerous photos of the Oswald known to the world clearly show he didn't have a broken tooth. So it would have been stupid of them to fake a broken tooth. All they needed to do was match what was on Lee's medical and dental records. The dental records were apparently close enough that differences could be explained away as non-erupted wisdom teeth and sloppy record keeping. Which leaves just the question of the mastoidectomy scar. Edited October 15, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Bojczuk Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Credit to Sandy for at least facing up to the problem that the exhumation evidence causes for the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' theory, unlike his fellow believers. Pretty much all we've had from Jim Hargrove are the usual 'but what about this' changing-the-subject data dumps; from David Josephs the usual 'but the bad guys can do anything' paranoia with added personal insults; and from James Norwood, well, nothing, since he seems to have found more pressing engagements after being challenged to a debate. Sandy is claiming that the mastoidectomy evidence has been faked, but that he isn't sure who actually faked it, or when, or how, or indeed whether it was the body or the scientists' report that was faked. Apparently it could have been the scientists themselves who faked their report (as well as the photographs from the exhumation, presumably); or it could have been unnamed members of unnamed official agencies who faked the body, either before or after death, and who then coerced the scientists into keeping quiet; or it could have been little green men from outer space who beamed the body into their spacecraft and replaced it with a clone. Anything's possible. For Sandy (or anyone else) to make a credible case that the exhumation evidence was faked, he needs to provide some sort of detailed account of how it might plausibly have been faked, and by whom. The more detail there is, the more credible the account becomes. You can't just claim it was faked and leave it at that. Of course, there's no actual evidence that anything was faked, just the inconvenient fact that the exhumation evidence invalidates a poorly supported and far-fetched theory. The very minimum that's needed is a list of the various elements that would have been required to fake either the body or the report, or both. Perhaps Sandy (or Jim, or David, or James if anyone can track him down) could provide such a list, so that we can work out how many people must have been involved in this particular plot and how likely it is that the plot could have been kept secret. To get the ball rolling, and because anything's possible, here's one scenario: 1 - News gets out that the body in Oswald's grave is going to be exhumed. Alarm bells go off in the headquarters of the 'Oswald project'. 2 - The chief of the 'Oswald project' calls a meeting, during which various courses of action are discussed. The consensus is that because the official cover story required the so-called 'Lee Harvey Oswald' character to have had a mastoidectomy, the non-existence of a mastoidectomy defect on the body in the grave would give away the two-Oswald plot. It is decided that the body in the grave needs to be surgically altered to show evidence of having undergone a mastoidectomy operation at the age of six, and that the best opportunity to do this is to intercept the body after it is dug up and before it is examined by the pathologists. 3 - On the day of the exhumation, a van containing a fully equipped mobile pathology lab is parked just around the corner from the cemetery. The van contains a specially fabricated coffin that looks and smells as though it has been in the ground for nearly two decades. 4 - Members of the 'Oswald project', disguised as members of the public visiting the cemetery, wait for the real coffin to be lifted from the grave. When the coffin emerges, the 'Oswald project' team stages a diversion ("Look over there!"), the mocked-up coffin is taken out of the van and hurriedly brought to the grave, the original coffin is moved to one side, the fake coffin moved into place, and the original coffin is hurriedly carried out of the cemetery and placed in the back of the van, all without anyone noticing. 5 - Inside the van, pathologists working for the 'Oswald project' quickly dissect the head of the body that had been in the grave. They chip and grind away at the skull, and in no time at all manage to create a fake mastoidectomy defect. They cross their fingers and hope that it looks as though it had been performed 35 years earlier on a living six-year-old boy. 6 - Meanwhile, the mocked-up coffin is loaded into an undertaker's hearse and begins its journey to the site of the scientific examination. Before it can get there, members of the 'Oswald project', disguised as traffic cops, pull over the hearse. While they engage the attention of the people in the hearse, other members of the 'Oswald project' drive the mobile pathology lab van up to the hearse, open the back of the hearse, remove the mocked-up coffin, place it by the side of the road, carry the original coffin (now containing the surgically modified body) from the back of their van and place it in the hearse, and pick up the mocked-up coffin from the side of the road and place it in their van, all without anyone noticing. 7 - The scientific examination is carried out on the surgically modified body, and evidence of a mastoidectomy is discovered. The scientists give a news conference, and later publish an article in which they show evidence that the body had undergone a mastoidectomy at the age of six. There is much back-slapping at 'Oswald project' headquarters. The secrets of the 'Oswald project' are safe again! 8 - Unfortunately, the scientists who examine the body notice that the mastoidectomy defect looks like a modern fake and not something that had been carried out on a six-year-old in 1946. Word of this potentially calamitous development reaches 'Oswald project' headquarters. Before the scientists stage their news conference, members of the 'Oswald project' visit the scientists and persuade them to keep quiet. 9 - Unfortunately, a couple of press photographers are in the cemetery during the exhumation, and they snap the 'Oswald project' team swapping the two coffins around and placing one of them in the back of a van. Word of this potentially calamitous development reaches 'Oswald project' headquarters. Members of the 'Oswald project' visit the photographers and their photo lab technicians, destroy their photographs, and persuade them to keep quiet. 10 - Unfortunately, several motorists, cyclists and dog-walkers, as well as a party of schoolchildren and their teachers, see the hearse being pulled over by the fake traffic cops, and notice the 'Oswald project' team taking one dilapidated coffin out of the hearse and placing it by the side of the road, taking a second dilapidated coffin out of a van and placing it in the back of the hearse, then picking up the coffin that was at the side of the road and placing it in the van. Word of this potentially calamitous development reaches 'Oswald project' headquarters. Members of the 'Oswald project' visit all the motorists, cyclists, dog-walkers, schoolchildren and teachers, and persuade them to keep quiet. 11 - Unfortunately, the carpenters who fabricated the mock coffin on behalf of the 'Oswald project' wonder why anyone would need a mocked-up coffin that looked as though it had been in the ground for nearly two decades. They suspect that their work has been used for nefarious purposes, and they get in touch with a couple of investigative journalists. Word of this potentially calamitous development reaches 'Oswald project' headquarters. Members of the 'Oswald project' visit the carpenters and the journalists and persuade them to keep quiet. 12 - Unfortunately, all of the scientists, press photographers, photo lab technicians, motorists, cyclists, dog-walkers, schoolchildren, teachers, carpenters and journalists talk to their work colleagues, their friends and their family members about the various problems with the exhumation. Word of this potentially calamitous development reaches 'Oswald project' headquarters. The chief of the 'Oswald project', by now a chain-smoking and nail-chewing nervous wreck, calls a meeting. It is decided that there should be a large recruitment drive so that a special department of the 'Oswald project' can be set up. Members of this special department of the 'Oswald project' visit all of the work colleagues, friends and family members of each of the scientists, the press photographers, the photo lab technicians, the motorists, the cyclists, the dog-walkers, the schoolchildren, the teachers, the carpenters and the journalists, and persuade every single one of them to keep quiet. 13 - Unfortunately, a couple of the newly recruited members of the 'Oswald project' are overheard talking in public about their new jobs. Word of this potentially calamitous development reaches 'Oswald project' headquarters. The chief of the 'Oswald project' is discovered crouching in the corner of his office, whimpering. He is sacked. The new chief expands the special department of the 'Oswald project' to include half the population of the United States. The secrets of the 'Oswald project' are safe again! Anything's possible, isn't it? Unfortunately, not every possibility is equally likely. P.S. Just in case anyone catches sight of the elusive James Norwood, here's that invitation to a debate: https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1573-invitation-to-dr-norwood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 More endless philosophizing and straw dog mocking from Mr. B! Perhaps he'll be willing to show us the missing front tooth on the exhumation photo of Lee Harvey Oswald's teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 On 10/13/2017 at 4:36 PM, Jim Hargrove said: In the fall of 1954, LEE Oswald was in the 9th grade at Beauregard JHS, where he became friends with a kid named Ed Voebel after Voebel witnessed him in a protracted fight with the Neumeyer brothers, Johnny and Mike. Voebel and a couple of other kids attempted to patch Lee up. This was in November. Voebel told the Warren Commission that Oswald lost a tooth in the fight. Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right? Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out. Soon after the fight, Voebel took a famous photograph of Oswald that he eventually sold to LIFE magazine after the assassination. It appears to show LEE Oswald with a missing tooth. Here’s a close-up from Voebel’s photo: About a half century later, after one of a number of meetings John Armstrong had with Marina (Oswald) Porter, she gave him all the original photos of the 1981 exhumation. Here is one of them. As you can see, there is no missing front tooth. I have the Feb. 21, 1964 edition of LIFE magazine which contains a HUGE halftone reproduction of Voebel's photo that fills up all of page 70 and extends onto page 71. Now that I have a better scanner, I'll see if I can make a clearer image. Those two upper front teeth sure look real to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Jim your reply just doesn't fly in the face any longer. You have to explain how the teeth match the soldier photo with the exhume photo. You can't keep referring back to the blurry class photo with his head at a high angle. You then have to explain with reasonable plausibility why there was no major press release of the secret exhumation or other media coverage. It's not like a secret agent could just stick his hand in the ground and grab the skull in the dead of night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 This has already been explained to you twice, Michael. The Marine in the photo is Harvey, and so naturally his teeth match the exhumation dental photo. The boy with the missing tooth in Ed Voebel’s classroom photo is LEE, whose teeth do NOT match the exhumation photo. All you have left is the mastoidectomy. Vincent Di Maio wrote, "we had a strong point of identification, although many World War II-era kids bore the same scar." Harvey may have had the same procedure done legitimately, and I don’t believe the exhumation team checked to see if he had it done to his other ear as well. To me, it’s most likely that Harvey had the procedure done in late 1952 or early 1953, when he was a teenager living in New York City and habitually truant from Public School 117. Louise Robertson, “Marguerite Oswald’s” housekeeper, told the FBI that Mrs. Oswald said she had brought her son to New York so that he could have mental tests performed at Jacobi Hospital. Wikipedia states that the CIA’s notorious MK-Ultra program “began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967, and officially halted in 1973.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Tracy Parnell Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: More endless philosophizing and straw dog mocking from Mr. B! Perhaps he'll be willing to show us the missing front tooth on the exhumation photo of Lee Harvey Oswald's teeth. As has been explained to you countless times, you have no evidence of a missing tooth. You have a photo in which you "see" a missing tooth because you want to. So, until you have proof of a missing tooth (not witness reports with your interpretation) you have nothing. Edited October 16, 2017 by W. Tracy Parnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Tracy Parnell Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Good write-up Jeremy. All of the unlikely events that would have had to occur for the exhumation to be faked don't trouble the H&L supporters. After all, they have the "proof" in dozens of mistaken witnesses and misinterpreted school records. But the "powers that be" would have had a much simpler path to keeping their secrets. They could have simply stopped the exhumation which indeed almost did not happen. There was a long legal battle between Marina and Robert with the latter trying to stop the exam. Which is odd, since he was in on the plot according to the H&L braintrust. You would think Robert would be their "ace in the hole" and would have continued to fight to stop the procedure instead of relenting as he finally did. After all, the plotters certainly had unlimited funds and power according to H&L. But as I said, these facts don't trouble them at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: More endless philosophizing and straw dog mocking from Mr. B! Perhaps he'll be willing to show us the missing front tooth on the exhumation photo of Lee Harvey Oswald's teeth. Ha ha ha!!! They went to all that trouble of faking a mastoid operation... but forgot to simply chip the tooth? They knew 'Lee' had a chipped tooth right? You keep saying that, so it must have been true. So why didn't they just simply chip 'Harvey's' tooth along with doing the mastoidectomy? Ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 18 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said: This has already been explained to you twice, Michael. The Marine in the photo is Harvey, and so naturally his teeth match the exhumation dental photo. The boy with the missing tooth in Ed Voebel’s classroom photo is LEE, whose teeth do NOT match the exhumation photo. All you have left is the mastoidectomy. Vincent Di Maio wrote, "we had a strong point of identification, although many World War II-era kids bore the same scar." Harvey may have had the same procedure done legitimately, and I don’t believe the exhumation team checked to see if he had it done to his other ear as well. To me, it’s most likely that Harvey had the procedure done in late 1952 or early 1953, when he was a teenager living in New York City and habitually truant from Public School 117. Louise Robertson, “Marguerite Oswald’s” housekeeper, told the FBI that Mrs. Oswald said she had brought her son to New York so that he could have mental tests performed at Jacobi Hospital. Wikipedia states that the CIA’s notorious MK-Ultra program “began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967, and officially halted in 1973.” The Marine in the photo is Harvey, and so naturally his teeth match the exhumation dental photo. The boy with the missing tooth in Ed Voebel’s classroom photo is LEE, whose teeth do NOT match the exhumation photo. Didn't the CIA plotters know how to remove a tooth from a corpse? But that doesn't matter now does it, because you've once again slithered away to a new position not requiring the risible scenarios that Jerry has eloquently demonstrated. Consequently, you've now had to abandon the "it was faked" nonsense...(for now!) Firstly you claimed that the exhumation had been faked; you've now rejected that. You then claimed that the mastoid operation could have been done after death, and you've now firmly rejected that too. So we're back to square one. 'Harvey' did have exactly the same operation "most likely" in 1952/3 in New York. Most likely? It wasn't likely at all a few days ago when you were adamantly pushing that the identical mastoid scar was the result of a faked exhumation report! Typically no proof and not one single jot of evidence is provided. It must have happened this way, "somehow", because the H&L story doesn't fit any other way. That's the logic provided here. So now, "most likely" 'Harvey' had an exact obtuse operation performed on him as a youth presumably so as to perfectly match up to doppelganger 'Lee' in case one day his body is dug up and the dastardly plot is revealed. Or maybe, coincidentally, and fortuitous for the H&L cult, 'Harvey' just independently acquired the exact same medical condition before growing up to look identical to his pre chosen doppelganger; a doppelganger never seen or heard of again since the weekend of the assassination, along with his doppelganger mother who also disappeared from the face of the earth around this time... Only very lost souls can buy this, surely? But no, you have an old B&W photo of a boy, a few pixels of which gives the impression of a small gap that you have incorrectly interpreted as a missing tooth. If only there was a way to discover if LHO had a missing tooth. I wonder how we could do that? If only we had access to his interred skull we would know for definite. He should have a mastoid scar and a missing tooth.. He has the mastoid but not the missing truth. There. That is the proof that you are wrong! He DIDN'T have a missing tooth. But rather than simply accept that, and all the consequences that come with it, you'd prefer to waste everyone's time with the ridiculous nonsense you have suggested above. Time to go and try sell something else Jim, your sales pitch is getting tired and uninspired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 On 10/14/2017 at 7:13 AM, Michael Walton said: The point is - it's very disingenuous and paranoid of you to think that just because the vault was broken that you say - YEP! They snuck down and swapped bodies or took the head in the middle of the night and drilled a mastoid hole in it. I mean are you really THAT paranoid and suspicious of EVERYTHING?! Wow! Not that paranoid Michael... just have a realistic view of history and the things men did.... All I asked for was a chronology. you are 100% sure nothing nefarious happened to that vault, casket or body... good for you in your certainty. What I have found to be axiomatic is Blum's prophetic American Watergate laws, one of which states: “No matter how paranoid or conspiracy-minded you are, what the government is actually doing is worse than you imagine.”. You describe a personal experience as if it bears on this one... Vaults USUALLY do not break, they might lose a seal and the insides get wet but crushed from above? Vaults USUALLY last tens if not hundreds of years - according to funeral home directors. So the FACT the vault is not intact does give one pause... it does not make the possibility, impossible at all... You really don't know how spycraft works.... do you? may want to brush up on that history before you make declarations as if you KNOW something to be true; when all you're doing is expressing an uneducated opinion... Learn what spies do Michael... how and why... try a library or the internet... Obviously plenty for you and Bernie and Tracy to learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) On 8/18/2017 at 5:30 PM, Michael Walton said: At least for the most part the Lone Nutters are consistent with their story line. Well, you gotta admit - they're fairly limited in possibilities with the "Oswald did it just like the Warren Commission SAYS he did it" rhetoric. As you've so deftly pointed out, we, on the other hand - well, some of us - are only bound by our imaginations. Edited October 16, 2017 by Glenn Nall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) oops. it duplicated itself. ... Edited October 16, 2017 by Glenn Nall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 "It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members..." huh. You know what that means, right? It means that a number of squadron members "knew" something to which no single squadron member could attest to have seen. Otherwise known, in the US Navy, as "gouge." Mere rumor. That statement would likely have no value in a courtroom. It's pretty much what they call hearsay, isn't it. "Well, yes, I know this because everybody knows it. Bill told me himself, and Bill's hardly ever wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 On 8/18/2017 at 10:46 AM, Dawn Meredith said: Agreed. The level of anger here is hard to take. Have any of these naysayers actually read Harvey and Lee? Jim it is very admirable of you to continue to support this evidence with so many posters attacking you. Dawn Hi Dawn - I know you've said you're friends with Richard Bartholomew (right?) - I wonder if you'd be willing to facilitate an email to him, from me, if possible. I surely don't want to badger him with questions but to simply send my appreciation for some of his work. And perhaps a question or two, but nothing more... Sorry to ask you this way, but i couldn't get a PM to you... Very Grateful, GlennNall atgmail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now