A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Thomas Graves]

7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Evidence suggesting Wilcott's remarks were true is included right in the HSCA notes themselves.

"Committee did stress analysis on Jim Wilcott.  Cuban stress analysis verified Wilcott validity.  Available if needed."

I have no idea what a "Cuban stress analysis" is, but we all know what a lie detector is, and it was quite clear that Wilcott was more than happy to take a lie detector test.

The HSCA failed to take up Wilcott's offer, and it is clear that HSCA's Michael Goldsmith insisted that Wilcott leave out MANY details from his sworn testimony.  It is right in the notes!  Even forced to eliminate all those details, Wilcott's testimony was so explosive that it was kept from the public for decades!

 

 

Jim,

With all due respect, you never did respond to my recent jump-starting-of-this-thread statement that your "Harvey" (also known as "Lee") SPOKE English very well, indeed, as regards all-important syntax, grammar, and vocabulary. 

He even used *gerunds* correctly when he was writing (I haven't heard  him use the rarely occurring and difficult *gerund with a personal pronoun* while speaking) which I'm guessing only about 5% of Americans do. 

Use correctly, that is. 

Capiche?

 

--  Tommy 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

You're not paying attention, Tommy.  I responded to you at the very top of the previous page of this thread, and you already expressed outrage.  Don't you remember?

Anyway, here's what I said way back on Monday.

Quote

 

Tommy,

The anti-H&L folks want us to believe that “Lee Harvey Oswald” became fluent reading, writing, and speaking Russian after spending two and a half years in the USSR.  But you want us to believe that he couldn’t achieve fluency speaking English after spending at least a decade in our country?  Really?  Should we call that a double standard or a quadruple standard? 

 

 

[Michael Walton]

45 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Tommy,

The anti-H&L folks want us to believe that “Lee Harvey Oswald” became fluent reading, writing, and speaking Russian after spending two and a half years in the USSR.  But you want us to believe that he couldn’t achieve fluency speaking English after spending at least a decade in our country?  Really?  Should we call that a double standard or a quadruple standard? 

So I guess the gist of this part of the story is that Oswald spoke English, wasn't too good at spelling or writing that language, was taught or learned himself Russian, did so perhaps better than his native English (at least better than his English writing skills) -- and because of all this, Armstrong and his followers come to the conclusion that there had to be two people...clones, in other words?

LOL

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

So I guess the gist of this part of the story is that Oswald spoke English, wasn't too good at spelling or writing that language, was taught or learned himself Russian, did so perhaps better than his native English (at least better than his English writing skills) -- and because of all this, Armstrong and his followers come to the conclusion that there had to be two people...clones, in other words?

LOL

That's a good summary, Michael -- according to me.   There is something realistic in this view of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Lee was born into poverty in the USA because he father died when he was a baby.   His mother had to struggle mightily to raise three boys on her own.   She used charities quite a lot, and she neglected her boys quite a lot -- and she even exploited them when she needed money (i.e. they all dropped out of high school to work for a living -- though they somehow scraped their way back).

Oswald's life was different from his brothers.    He was the youngest, and he worked the least.   He was the exception.   When Marguerite married a wealthy Edwin Ekdahl, and kept that marriage for a few years (ca. 1943-1948) young Lee had a privileged life.    They stayed in fine hotels in New York City and in California, and at the finest resorts in between.    Lee got a taste of the good life -- but when his mother divorced in 1948 (when Lee was 9), that all stopped abruptly, and her family fell back into rank poverty.

But Lee had his taste.   When Marguerite moved back to New York City to stay with her oldest son, John Pic and his wife, they did not stay in the best hotels -- far from it.   Also, Marguerite picked on John Pics wife so badly -- and young Lee imitated his mother in this -- that the Pics tossed them out.

This may have been the low point of Lee's life.  He moved to an even worse neighborhood, where he didn't like school one bit.    He went to the library to read what he WANTED to read, at the speed he WANTED.   He heard Communists preaching on the street corners.   He went to the zoo.   He was a truant for so long that New York City officials picked him up, and transferred him to a Boy's Camp for psychiatric evaluation.  The doctors there reported massive neglect and introversion.   Marguerite didn't care -- in Texas, the cities would not interfere against the parent's wishes.   They eventually moved back to Texas.

From that point onward, Lee read MASSIVELY.   His cousin, Marilyn Murret, said Lee read encyclopedias the way some people read novels.   Lee was very well educated from a book-learning standpoint -- but not from a SOCIAL standpoint.  He didn't write -- he only read.    His spelling was awful -- but he understood the basics of Socialism, Marxism, Democracy and Capitalism -- at least more than the average high-school dropout.

Lee's only hope in life was some sort of Marxist Utopia -- where he could get what he truly DESERVED in life, instead of watching semi-literate muscle-heads get promoted and promoted, while he was always at the bottom of the heap -- where his brothers left him.   The Marine Corps was the only answer after awhile -- but even the Marines were a big disappointment to Lee Harvey Oswald.   Semi-literate guys got ahead, while literate guys like Lee and Kerry Thornley were overlooked. 

Lee decided he was smarter than the Marines.   He decided to teach himself Russian by using the Berlitz system, and learning to read Russian newspapers.   He was reported by some Marines, but his Commanding Officer said that any Marine had the right to study any language he chose.   So Lee dug in.   It seems to me that Lee lost himself in the Russian language.   He did not hang out with the other guys (except one trip to Tijuana, which he never wanted to repeat).   He saved all his money, and he studied Russian for most of 1959 at the El Toro Marine base in California.

That is not hard to believe, IMHO.   Lee Harvey Oswald could not write well -- he could not spell well -- but he could READ very, very well.   That is how he taught himself to read Russian in one year.   It was his OBSESSION.    By tricking his way into the USSR, and spending 2.5 years immersed in the Russian language -- and using his Marxist vocabulary in the USSR -- he became fluent in conversational Russian.    That's not hard to believe at all, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 1, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

So I guess the gist of this part of the story is that Oswald spoke English, wasn't too good at spelling or writing that language, was taught or learned himself Russian, did so perhaps better than his native English (at least better than his English writing skills) -- and because of all this, Armstrong and his followers come to the conclusion that there had to be two people...clones, in other words?

LOL

Michael,

My whole point (which seems to have escaped you) is that Hargrove's "Harvey," whom you and I and a few other rational people know to have been one-and-the-same as the one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald, did not only "speak English," as you put it, but could speak it better than most U.S.-born college students!  In my humble opinion.

(But what do I know?  I only scored in the 98th percentile on the SAT's "verbal intelligence" portion, about 53 years ago ...)

--  Tommy 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/30/2018 at 4:59 PM, Thomas Graves said:

On 1/30/2018 at 12:24 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Tracy,

Has every CIA cryptonym been published on Mary Ferrell? Is John Newman aware of every CIA cryptonym?
 

Sandy,

With all due respect, does that mean it must be true?

--  Tommy 

 

Tommy,

No, of course it doesn't mean that. What it does mean is that Michael Walton's argument, supported by Tracy Parnell -- that the crypto code RX-ZIM  must be fake because it isn't published on Mary Ferrell, etc. -- is a non sequitur

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tommy,

No, of course it doesn't mean that. What it does mean is that Michael Walton's argument, supported by Tracy Parnell -- that the crypto code RX-ZIM  must be fake because it isn't published on Mary Ferrell, etc. -- is a non sequitur

 

 

Sure looks fake to me, Sandy.

"RX" 

LOL

--  Tommy

Sure it wasn't ZEPP?

Regardless, Hargrove's and your silence regarding "Harvey's" amazing ability to SPEAK grammatically correct English ... well ... it speaks volumes.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Hargrove's and your silence regarding "Harvey's" amazing ability to SPEAK grammatically correct English ... well ... it speaks volumes.

We've both responded, Tommy. I did here:

 

 

And now I recall the case of my first wife, who immigrated from South Korea to America at the age of 7. When I met her eleven years later she spoke perfect English and had no accent. Nobody was amazed by that. What did amaze me is that she couldn't speak a word of Korean.

That is what 100% immersion did for her, I guess.

 

[Thomas Graves]

28 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

We've both responded, Tommy. I did here:

 

 

And now I recall the case of my first wife, who immigrated from South Korea to America at the age of 7. When I met her eleven years later she spoke perfect English and had no accent. Nobody was amazed by that. What did amaze me is that she couldn't speak a word of Korean.

That is what 100% immersion did for her, I guess.

 

Sandy,

With all due respect, you disappoint me.

Did I say accent-free?

I bet you a quarter your wife didn't speak English so perfectly that she would have said, "I didn't appreciate HIS giving my sandwich away," instead of "I didn't appreciate HIM giving my sandwich away."

Oswald would have spoken the former, not the latter.  

"The gerund takes the possessive," Sandy.  

That's my acid test for Oswald's grammar, and anyone else's for that matter. That and maybe some of the more difficult verb tenses, like the Future Perfect Continuous, for example. (Believe it or not, there are something like twenty-three verb tenses in the English language.  I don't know how many the Slavic language Russian has, but Czech has five ... uhh ... kinda.)

Very, very few American college graduates know that rule, but your "Harvey" apparently did.

And your wife, too, right?

(sarcasm)

--  Tommy 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Lee decided he was smarter than the Marines.   He decided to teach himself Russian by using the Berlitz system, and learning to read Russian newspapers.   He was reported by some Marines, but his Commanding Officer said that any Marine had the right to study any language he chose.   So Lee dug in.   It seems to me that Lee lost himself in the Russian language.   He did not hang out with the other guys (except one trip to Tijuana, which he never wanted to repeat).   He saved all his money, and he studied Russian for most of 1959 at the El Toro Marine base in California.

I don't think Oswald took a Berlitz course in Russian, Paul.  If you think he did, please tell us where and when he took the course.  How did he pay for it?  Priscilla Johnson claims he said he used the method, but the word "Berlitz" does not appear anywhere in the 888 pages of the Warren Report, and the commissioners and staff were clearly anxious to explain how Oswald learned Russian before traveling to Moscow. In an executive WC meeting, general counsel J. Lee Rankin suggested that Oswald might have received language instruction at the Monterey School of the Army. Ranken said, “We are trying to find out what [Oswald] studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages.”

But as you know, there is no record whatsoever that Oswald attended any foreign language school while in the USMC.  But it is abundantly clear that he knew Russian in the Marine Corps.  On a date with Rosaleen Quinn in the spring of 1959, he spoke with her for more than two hours entirely in Russian. Ms Quinn really had taken a Berlitz Russian-language course for some time  

According to one of the many soldiers in California who saw "Oswaldovich" reading Russian language newspapers and books, he read a Russian language newspaper published in San Francisco, which is probably the one shown below, which was in business since the 1920s.  Can you imagine teaching yourself Russian by reading stuff like this alone in your spare time while working as a U.S. Marine?

Here is that Russian newspaper published in San Francisco. Do you want us to believe this was how Harvey taught himself Russian?

 

[Thomas Graves]

20 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I don't think Oswald took a Berlitz course in Russian, Paul.  If you think he did, please tell us where and when he took the course.  How did he pay for it?  Priscilla Johnson claims he said he used the method, but the word "Berlitz" does not appear anywhere in the 888 pages of the Warren Report, and the commissioners and staff were clearly anxious to explain how Oswald learned Russian before traveling to Moscow. In an executive WC meeting, general counsel J. Lee Rankin suggested that Oswald might have received language instruction at the Monterey School of the Army. Ranken said, “We are trying to find out what [Oswald] studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages.”

But as you know, there is no record whatsoever that Oswald attended any foreign language school while in the USMC.  But it is abundantly clear that he knew Russian in the Marine Corps.  On a date with Rosaleen Quinn in the spring of 1959, he spoke with her for more than two hours entirely in Russian. Ms Quinn really had taken a Berlitz Russian-language course for some time  

According to one of the many soldiers in California who saw "Oswaldovich" reading Russian language newspapers and books, he read a Russian language newspaper published in San Francisco, which is probably the one shown below, which was in business since the 1920s.  Can you imagine teaching yourself Russian by reading stuff like this alone in your spare time while working as a U.S. Marine?

Here is that Russian newspaper published in San Francisco. Do you want us to believe this was how Harvey taught himself Russian?

 

Jim, 

With all due respect, don't you have anything to say about your "Harvey's" amazing facility with SPOKEN ENGLISH?  You know, seein' as how his command of SPOKEN ENGLISH was better than most college graduates?

You know, as far as syntax, grammar, and vocabulary is concerned?

--  Tommy 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

45 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I don't think Oswald took a Berlitz course in Russian, Paul.  If you think he did, please tell us where and when he took the course.  How did he pay for it?  Priscilla Johnson claims he said he used the method, but the word "Berlitz" does not appear anywhere in the 888 pages of the Warren Report, and the commissioners and staff were clearly anxious to explain how Oswald learned Russian before traveling to Moscow. In an executive WC meeting, general counsel J. Lee Rankin suggested that Oswald might have received language instruction at the Monterey School of the Army. Ranken said, “We are trying to find out what [Oswald] studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages.”

But as you know, there is no record whatsoever that Oswald attended any foreign language school while in the USMC.  But it is abundantly clear that he knew Russian in the Marine Corps.  On a date with Rosaleen Quinn in the spring of 1959, he spoke with her for more than two hours entirely in Russian. Ms Quinn really had taken a Berlitz Russian-language course for some time  

According to one of the many soldiers in California who saw "Oswaldovich" reading Russian language newspapers and books, he read a Russian language newspaper published in San Francisco, which is probably the one shown below, which was in business since the 1920s.  Can you imagine teaching yourself Russian by reading stuff like this alone in your spare time while working as a U.S. Marine?

Here is that Russian newspaper published in San Francisco. Do you want us to believe this was how Harvey taught himself Russian?

Jim,

In the Warren Report we see the WC testimony of several Marines.   All of them claim that Lee Harvey Oswald studied Russian at the El Toro base, including Russian newspapers like the one you posted. 

Are you saying that all these Marines were lying under oath?    I don't have such a cynical view of Americans to believe that.

As for the word 'Berlitz,' let me tell you about the WC testimony of Lee Harvey Oswald's fellow Marine, Nelson Delgago.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that you thought he was in Berlin going to school? 
Mr. DELGADO - Yes. For some reason or other. I can't say right now why, but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there. 
... 
Mr. LIEBELER - But even though you had heard before you had gotten out of the Marine Corps that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, while you were the Army in Germany you gained the impression that somehow that he was in Berlin, going to school? 
Mr. DELGADO - Yes; in the university there.  

Although Nelson Delgado does not get extra points for education or insight, still, he had a strong impression that "Berlin" was deeply involved with the education of Lee Harvey Oswald.   Yet there is no other evidence except this fuzzy memory by Delgado.   I submit that this "Berlin" was really "Berlitz."   Delgado was an ignoramus -- but he was asked his opinion, and he gave it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Jim Hargrove]

28 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jim,

In the Warren Report we see the WC testimony of several Marines.   All of them claim that Lee Harvey Oswald studied Russian at the El Toro base, including Russian newspapers like the one you posted. 

Are you saying that all these Marines were lying under oath?    I don't have such a cynical view of Americans to believe that.

Please stop misrepresenting what I say, Paul.

I think the Marines were telling the truth.

For example,  Erwin Donald Lewis said in his sworn affidavit, “It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he [Oswald] could read, write, and speak Russian.

 

The question I want you to answer is how did a high school dropout teach himself to read, write, and speak as difficult a language as Russian in a few months of spare time in the Marines?  

You tell us he attended Berlitz courses, which Delgado misconstrued as “Berlin,” but why is there no record of that whatsoever in USMC documents?

If you care to say he attended the Monterey School of Languages or a Berlitz School because he was being trained to become a Russian spy, that’s fine.  

Just say so!

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

I bet you a quarter your wife didn't speak English so perfectly that she would have said, "I didn't appreciate HIS giving my sandwich away," instead of "I didn't appreciate HIM giving my sandwich away."

Oswald would have spoken the former, not the latter.  

"The gerund takes the possessive," Sandy.

 

I don't recall specifically if my ex-wife gave the gerund the possessive. But I always have* since college days, and I don't recall her using poor grammar. In contrast, I do recall that my two best friends (at about the same time period) did NOT give the gerund the possessive. (Even though they both were at the top of their class and graduated summa cum laude.) So it seems like I would recall if the same were true with my ex-wife.

I think you owe me a quarter.

*I sometimes do not give the the gerund the possessive now that I've become a grammar rebel.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

 

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

With all due respect, you disappoint me.

Did I say accent-free?

 

Yes.

Here:

 

On 3/27/2017 at 9:43 AM, Thomas Graves said:

GEM # 1  (Let's take them one at a time, shall we?)

"The Russian speaking youth, possibly of Hungarian parents, was brought to the U.S. following World War II and given the name HARVEY Oswald."

Question:  If the mother tongue of "Harvey" (the young boy who eventually joined the Marines, "defected" to the USSR, married Marina, and was killed by Jack Ruby on 11/24/63) was Hungarian (a Turkic language from Central Asia), and he was already speaking Russian (a highly-inflected, Indo-European language) when he came to the U.S., how are we to explain, then, the fact that "Harvey" spoke such grammatically-correct, Hungarian and Russian accent-free English later in life? 

--  Tommy

PS  I think I can speak with some authority on this, having taught English for seven years in a country that speaks a Slavic, i.e. Russian-like language, the Czech Republic.  And I remember the Hungarian Toth brothers at La Jolla High School back around 1964, who probably came to the U.S. around the time of the 1956 Hungarian Revolt against the U.S.S.R.