A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Jim Hargrove]

In the online edition of today’s Fort Worth Star-Telegram, it is reported that even people without much knowledge of “Lee Harvey Oswald” knew he attended Stripling School.  It reports that Oswald’s “teachers and classmates remember him at Stripling, though there is no official record.”

Read it here.

[Paul Trejo]

On 11/21/2017 at 1:53 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks for all the generalities, opinions, and platitudes, Mr. Trejo.  Now can we discuss the facts?  Here's one ....

CIA's Ann Egerter, who worked for J.J. Angleton's Counterintelligence Special Interest Group (CI/SIG), opened a "201" file on Oswald on December 9, 1960. Egerter testified to the HSCA: "We were charged with the investigation of Agency personnel....”  When asked if the purpose was to "investigate Agency employees," she answered, "That is correct."  When asked, "Would there be any other reason for opening up a file?" she answered, "No, I can't think of one."

What is your explanation for this?

Jim,

My explanation is this:

1.  Ann Egerter was being as understated as she possibly could -- careful not to divulge CIA secrets to the HSCA.

2.  Ann said that a CIA 201 File was for investigating 'Agency Personnel.'

3.  Asked if she could think of any other reason for a CIA 201 file, and she replied, "No, I can't think of one" -

4.  CIA-did-it fanatics jump to the conclusion -- AHA, this is SOLID PROOF that Oswald was a CIA Agent!

It's weak evidence, sir.  First, Ann was not a top official in the CIA.  She was a glorified clerk.  Secondly, she gave a hesitant reply, based on her CIA training to never divulge CIA secrets.

Like all other CIA employees (e.g , George Joannides) she was also trained to fib like crazy to Congress and the HSCA specifically.  You want to doubt everything Joannides said, but you want to accept everything that Ann Egerter said.

Why?  Only because it seems to agree with your own starting point -- your own conclusions -- and it allows you to JUMP to your conclusions, which you had already assumed at the start.

The extreme poverty of Lee Harvey Oswald demonstrates that he was an unfortunate Marine whose discharge had been downgraded to "undesirable," and he could only get minimum wage jobs in Fort Worth, Dallas and New Orleans.

I agree that Lee Harvey Oswald himself was obsessed with the CIA and wanted to be a CIA agent so badly that he could taste it.  However, he lacked the right stuff.  He lacked the brains to see beyond George DeMohrenschildt's deadly hatred of Radical Rightist Ex-General Walker.  So, the CIA lost any interest they had in exploiting this young man who could speak Russian so well -- and let him free-fall among the Radical Rightists of New Orleans.

It wasn't only that Oswald's knowledge of Marxism was sophomoric (as George DeMohrenschildt testified), but it was that Oswald was known to be involved in the Walker shooting (as Dick Russell wrote in TMWKTM) as early as April 14, 1963.

Jim Garrison (1968) showed LHO's Radical Rightist connections in New Orleans very plainly, I believe.  Bill Simpich (2014) showed the high degree of CIA non-involvement in Oswald's life. 

Ann Egerter's HSCA testimony is weak evidence for anything.  It's a couple of wayward sentences that CIA-did-it CTers have exploited far beyond their actual value.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo
grammar

[Paul Trejo]

On 11/21/2017 at 9:02 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Really?

21 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project Was Run by the CIA

<snip; y'all can read this above>

Here is my rebuttal of these 21 so-called "Facts."

*** 21 Facts Showing that the CIA Never Handled Lee Harvey Oswald at any Time ***

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott only said that some CIA agent "told him" that he was making payments to an encrypted account for the Oswald Project.  Sheer hearsay and rumor; more likely, mocking Wilcott to his face.

2.  Even if Antonio Veciana did see DAP and LHO together in the summer of 1963 in Dallas, it was most likely in the context of killing Fidel Castro (DAP's and Veciana's obsession) and not JFK.  (Jim Garrison already proved that LHO worked with Guy Banister in the context of a Fake FPCC intended to bring down Fidel Castro).

3. It's nonsense to imagine that no "CIA operations officer in the USSR met a Russian girl and eventually married,” so that you have to read LHO into that sentence.  Though former CIA agent Victor Marchetti confirmed that the CIA did have a “fake defector” program in the 1950s, that in-itself is no proof that LHO was part of it.  LHO could still have acted on his own.

4. The fact that Robert Webster and LHO "fake defected" a few months apart in 1959, claiming  "sensitive" information, that is easily explained by coincidence.  What other reason would a young man give?  Marchetti said there were scores of such boys in the program, and the US State Department said there were scores of actual defectors during that time frame.  The fact that these two guys met Marina Prusakova in Minsk near the same time, also makes sense -- they were both there at the same time, and the USSR sent all "questionable defectors" to Minsk for observation.  As for Marina Prusakova, she hated the USSR and would do anything to move to the USA. So, she got around.

5. Although Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough agreed that LHO was associated with the CIA, you could add hundreds of thousands of other names of people who *also* share the same *opinion* without any final proof.  These guys had no proof, either. 

6. Again -- it is absurd to imagine that no CIA "contact" ever worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.  People get married under all sorts of conditions, and then they have babies.  Minsk was a Soviet observation town for "questionable defectors."  There were far too many "fake defectors" and "real defectors" and "double agent defectors" in the USSR in those days to justify a claim that LHO (who had just turned 20) was that "contact."

7. It is nonsense that Kenneth Porter fell in love with young, beautiful Marina Oswald in 1964, and left his family to marry her -- for the sole purpose of monitoring Marina for the CIA!   Actually, men leave their wives for younger women all the time.

8. George Joannides was a CIA agent, so naturally he lied about his CIA cases, as well as the CIA cases of other CIA officers.  It's what CIA agents are paid to do.  Didn't you know?  In 1978, for the HSCA, the President's order of secrecy in the JFK Records was still in force.  So, nothing the HSCA could say or do would release those FBI and CIA secrets.  PERIOD.

9. The CIA often gave medals to CIA agents, like Joannides, who kept CIA secrets under pressure. 

10. The FBI and the CIA do not coordinate actions, but compete with each other.  The FBI has the duty of Domestic crime.  The CIA has the duty of International crime.  The clash occurs when criminals travel inside and outside of the USA.  Then who owns the criminal's file?  To this very day the FBI and CIA cannot agree.  The case of Lee Harvey Oswald was an FBI matter from June, 1962, until November, 1963.  The CIA (as carefully proved by Bill Simpich) was clueless about the Mexico City telephone impersonation of LHO.  This is because the JFK plot was Domestic.  The FBI knew.  We should first scour the released FBI Records, and leave the CIA Records as secondary.  It seems to me that most CTers are doing the opposite. 

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a high-school dropout's idea (or some biased CTers idea) of a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots, because Oswald foolishly used the word, "microdots" in his address book.  Ask yourself -- what competent US Agent uses the secret word, "microdots" in his personal address book?   Answer: NONE.

13. Oswald owned no Minox spy camera -- that was the property of the wealthy, young Michael Paine, who could afford three cars, two domiciles as well as such expensive toys. 

14. The official WC story of the radar operator near U-2 planes defecting to Russia and returning home without a penalty smells like a spy story to a Hollywood hopeful.  The US State Department explained it realistically: Oswald never defected -- he never surrendered his US Passport.  He never applied for Russian citizenship.  He never joined the Communist Party in Russia.  He was 19 years old when he was first admitted into Russia.  He was an intellectually bright and emotionally retarded young man, having fun.  His pals in Russia were the 'naughty' kids, including Marina Prusakova, who hated the USSR, and couldn't wait to get to the USA.  LHO laughed all the way through the fun and games.  (Actually, he never had it so good.  When he arrived back in the USA, he fell into the depths of minimum-wage poverty.  Marina was shocked, because LHO was relatively well-to-do in Russia.)

15. CIA double agent Richard Case Nagell knew about some plot to assassinate some world leader -- it could have been Fidel Castro.  Nagell warned LHO that if he succeeded in getting a Visa to Cuba as he was seeking -- then Nagell would have to shoot LHO dead, just in order to keep his own cover as a double-agent.  LHO sat in his kitchen and wept about that.  He worried about the Mexico City trip, and instead tried to make a plan to hijack some airplane or other to Cuba.  The CIA didn't ignore anything Nagel said.

16. LHO did save all his US Marine's money to splurge on a European holiday.  His Marine buddies testified that he rarely went off the El Toro base.  He was tight with money.  He gave his ailing mother $100 and then went to Europe to splurge for the first time in his life.  When Oswald was nearly out of that money, he asked his mother to send him $100 to apply to the Albert Schweitzer college -- and she did, and Oswald did apply with that money -- but then he changed his mind and "fake defected" to the USSR instead.  He was bright -- but not bright enough.  He lacked the Right Stuff. 

17. When LHO returned to the USA, it was the FBI who debriefed him, because he was now a US Domestic problem.  (Actually, however, the CIA did admit that they considered interviewing Oswald for a possible job in 1962, but big bureaucracies move slow; in the long run they decided against it (probably after the Walker shooting.)

18. The US State Department investigated LHO very carefully.  They worked with LHO to ensure that he never surrendered his passport.  He was 19 years old, for goodness sake!  The US State Department had seen many cases like this by 1959.  Many of the boys changed their minds after only a few months.  None lasted much more than two years.  The US State Department would wait it out.  When LHO did change his mind in about two years, the US State Department reached out to help him, and even lent him money to return with his young family.   Finally -- you're mistaken, Jim, about LHO getting an "OK" to travel to Cuba.  That never happened.

19. It wasn't just Allen Dulles and Earl Warren who wanted the JFK Truth hidden for 75 years -- it was also FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ as well as perhaps a dozen other powerful people in Washington DC.  National Security was the reason they cited -- and history will show they told the truth.  Which is to say, they told us the Truth about why they had to withhold the Truth for so long: National Security.

20. CIA's Ann Egerter's testimony to the HSCA was a random comment that has been taken out of context, like a "gotcha!"  All she said was that a CIA 201 file was to "investigate Agency employees."   Her remark was not presented as the final definition of a CIA 201 file, but CIA-did-it fanatics treat it that way.

21. JFK and the CIA were not at war with each other.  Despite angry feelings on both sides, as shown in the NY Times, and even after JFK shouted that he wanted to rip up the CIA to pieces and toss them to the wind -- those words were said in anger over the Bay of Pigs.  Anybody would be angry.  But afterwards, JFK actually increased the funding for the CIA.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jim Hargrove]

Mr. Trejo's comments are in black, my replies are in red.

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott only said that some CIA agent "told him" that he was making payments to an encrypted account for the Oswald Project.  Sheer hearsay and rumor; more likely, mocking Wilcott to his face.

Mr. Wilcott said otherwise:

Mr. Preyer. That was shop talk, speculation, I gather;
people were saying that the CIA is somehow connected with it.
 
Mr. Wilcott. Well, I believed it to be a little more
than speculation, that the source at least of this kind of
talk was, I believe, to be something more serious than
speculation.
 
Mr. Preyer. It was your conclusion from that talk that
some of these people might have knowledge that he was a CIA
agent rather than that they were speculating about it?
 
Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.
 
Mr. Preyer. And you did mention the case officer who
came in and told you that the money he had drawn out a few
weeks earlier was drawn out for Oswald?
 
Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.
 
Mr. Preyer. He stated that as a fact and not that he
believed it was drawn out for Oswald or it could have been or
something like that?
 
Mr. Wilcott. It was stated as a fact -- Oswald or the
Oswald project.

2.  Even if Antonio Veciana did see DAP and LHO together in the summer of 1963 in Dallas, it was most likely in the context of killing Fidel Castro (DAP's and Guy Banister's obsession) and not JFK. (Jim Garrison already proved LHO worked with Guy Banister).

You have no idea what was said at the meeting, but soon after it, the framing of the “Oswald” killed by Jack Ruby began in earnest in and around Dallas. The Phillips/Oswald meeting is further proof that Oswald was an agent regardless of what was said!

3. It's nonsense to imagine that no "CIA operations officer in the USSR met a Russian girl and eventually married,” so that you have to read LHO into that sentence.  Though former CIA agent Victor Marchetti confirmed that the CIA did have a “fake defector” program in the 1950s, that in-itself is no proof that LHO was part of it.  LHO could still have acted on his own.

I did not say what you put in quotes above, but the fact that there was a CIA “fake defector” program in the 1950s is hardly evidence that Harvey Oswald wasn’t part of it.  It clearly suggests that he WAS part of it.

4. The fact that Robert Webster and LHO "fake defected" a few months apart in 1959, claiming "sensitive" information, that is easily explained by coincidence.  What other reason would a young man give?  Marchetti said there were scores of such boys in the program, and the US State Department said there were scores of actual defectors during that time frame.  The fact that these two guys met Marina Prusakova in Minsk near the same time, also makes sense -- they were both there at the same time, and the USSR sent all "questionable defectors" to Minsk for observation.  As for Marina Prusakova, she hated the USSR and would do anything to move to the USA. So, she got around.

Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.  You call this a coincidence?  Isn’t it another amazing coincidence that CIA officer David Atlee Phillips was so impressed by LHO that he decided to risk an open air meeting with him in Dallas in 1963.

5. Although Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough agreed that LHO was associated with the CIA, you could add hundreds of thousands of other names of people who *also* share the same *opinion* without any final proof.  These guys had no proof, either.

That’s your opinion.  The opinions of Sprague, Schweiker, Norton and Newbrough are worth more than yours or mine because they were far closer to the actual events being discussed here.

6. Again -- it is absurd to imagine that no CIA "contact" ever worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.  People get married under all sorts of conditions, and then they have babies.  Minsk was a Soviet observation town for "questionable defectors."  There were far too many "fake defectors" and "real defectors" and "double agent defectors" in the USSR in those days to justify a claim that LHO was that "contact."

Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA “contact” who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child. Are you suggesting there was a different CIA “contact” who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child?  Name him please!

7. It is nonsense that Kenneth Porter fell in love with young, beautiful Marina Oswald in 1964, and left his family to marry her -- for the sole purpose of monitoring Marina for the CIA!   Actually, men leave their wives for younger women all the time.

Sure, but Mr. Porter was an employee of Collins Radio….

Collins Radio was located at 1200 North Alma Road in Richardson, Texas and held major communications contracts for the military and CIA, including the installation of communications towers in Vietnam. On November 1, 1963 the New York Times published a photo of a ship named the "Rex"and a story involving commandos that were sent ashore from the ship in Cuba on October 22-23, 1963. The Commandos were captured on a Cuban beach with high-powered sniper rifles and admitted they had been trained by the CIA to kill Cuban leaders. The "Rex" was leased to Collins Radio of Richardson, Texas. (Harvey and Lee, pp. 872-873.)

One of this years new releases indicated an ongoing relationship between Collins Radio employees and the CIA in the 1970s as well.

8. George Joannides was a CIA agent, so naturally he lied about his CIA cases, as well as the CIA cases of other CIA officers.  It's what CIA agents are paid to do.  Didn't you know?  In 1978, for the HSCA, the President's order of secrecy in the JFK Records was still in force.  So, nothing the HSCA could say or do would release those FBI and CIA secrets.  PERIOD.

The fact remains that the CIA put a fellow in charge of lying to the HSCA who had specialized knowledge—that he kept to himself—about “Lee Harvey Oswald.”  The fact that CIA agents are paid to lie for their governments is irrelevant.  CIA personnel deliberately lied to a House committee about their relationships  to a man accused of assassinating JFK.  I thought the CIA was supposed to work for our country!

9. The CIA often gave medals to CIA agents, like Joannides, who kept CIA secrets under pressure.

Apparently the Agency rewards its employees who lie to Congress about their relationship with alleged presidential assassins.  Good Works, eh?

10. The FBI and the CIA do not coordinate actions, but compete with each other.  The FBI has the duty of Domestic crime.  The CIA has the duty of International crime.  The clash occurs when criminals travel inside and outside of the USA.  Then who owns the criminal's file?  To this very day the FBI and CIA cannot agree.  The case of Lee Harvey Oswald was an FBI matter from June, 1962, until November, 1963.  The CIA (as carefully proved by Bill Simpich) was clueless about the Mexico City telephone impersonation of LHO.  This is because the JFK plot was Domestic.  The FBI knew.  We should first scour the released FBI Records, and leave the CIA Records as secondary.  It seems to me that most CTers are doing the opposite.

The fact remains that the FBI and the CIA—at exactly the same time just weeks before the assassination—made clear efforts to diminish Federal monitoring of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” And you, apparently, find nothing suspicious about this.

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a high-school dropout's idea (or some biased CTers idea) of a pretty good intelligence report.

Really?  Let’s look at the first few paragraphs of that lengthy document….

    The lives of Russian workers is governed, first and foremost, by the "collective," the smallest unit of authority in any given factory, plant, or enterprise. Sectional and shop cells form a highly organized and well supported political organization. These shop committees are in turn governed by the shop and section party chiefs who are directed by the factory or plant party secretary. This post carries officially the same amount of authority as the production director or president of the plant, but in reality it is the controlling organ of all activities at any industrial enterprise, whether political, industrial, or otherwise personal relations. The party secretary is responsible for political indoctrination of the workers, the discipline of members of the Communist party working at the plant, and the general conduct and appearance of all members.
 
    The Minsk Radio and Television plant is known throughout the Union as a major producer of electronics parts and sets. In this vast enterprise created in the early 50's, the party secretary is a 6'4" man in his early 40's -- has a long history of service to the party. He controls the activities of the 1,000 communist party members here and otherwise supervises the activities of the other 5,000 people employed at this major enterprise in Minsk, the capital of the 3rd ranking Republic Belorussia.
 
    This factory manufactures 87,000 large and powerful radio and 60,000 television sets in various sizes and ranges, excluding pocket radios, which are not mass produced anywhere in the U.S.S.R. It is this plant which manufactured several console model combination radiophonograph television sets which were shown as mass produced items of commerce before several hundreds of thousands of Americans at the Soviet Exposition in New York in 1959. After the Exhibition these sets were duly shipped back to Minsk and are now stored in a special storage room on the first floor of the Administrative Building -- at this factory, ready for the next international Exhibit. 

Sounds like a pretty good report to me.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots, because Oswald foolishly used the word, "microdots" in his address book.  Ask yourself -- what competent US Agent uses the secret word, "microdots" in his personal address book?   Answer: NONE.

So, the use of microdots shows that you are NOT a spy?  Sheesh.  Why were some individual letters cut out of some of Oswald’s so-called writings.  To remove microdots, perhaps?

13. Oswald owned no Minox spy camera -- that was the property of the wealthy, young Michael Paine, who could afford three cars, two domiciles as well as such expensive toys.

Now you think, once again, the Paines came to the rescue?  A few months ago attempting to rebut my list, you wrote this:

11. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera; like many Private Detectives and other spy wannabes. The FBI mucked with all JFK evidence, starting on 11/22/1963, because of J. Edgar Hoover's order that everything must fit a "Lone Nut" scenario. This was for National Security purposes. Nobody denies that anymore.

Why do you keep changing your story?

14. The official WC story of the radar operator near U-2 planes defecting to Russia and returning home without a penalty smells like a spy story to a Hollywood hopeful.  The US State Department explained it realistically: Oswald never defected -- he never surrendered his US Passport.  He never applied for Russian citizenship.  He never joined the Communist Party in Russia.  He was 19 years old when he was first admitted into Russia.  He was an intellectually bright and emotionally retarded young man, having fun.  His pals in Russia were the 'naughty' kids, including Marina Prusakova, who hated the USSR, and couldn't wait to get to the USA.  LHO laughed all the way through the fun and games. (Actually, he never had it so good.  When he arrived back in the USA, he fell into the depths of minimum-wage poverty.  Marina was shocked, because LHO was relatively well-to-do in Russia.)

Isn’t it amazing then that both Oswald and Robert Webster tried to defect on a Saturday, when their “defections” couldn’t be “processed!”  At the height of the Cold War, an American soldier who had allegedly worked in a radar installation near top-secret U-2 flights, who said at the American embassy in Moscow he would tell the Soviets everything he knew, was, according to the CIA, never even interviewed by the CIA?  You’re kidding, right?

The minute Harvey Oswald told Richard Snyder that he intended to disclose military secrets to the Soviets, he was violating U.S. law.  He should have been detained at the embassy and returned to the U.S. for trial.  But he wasn’t because he was a spy and his speech was an act to fool the Soviets who had the U.S. embassy in Moscow bugged.

15. CIA double agent Richard Case Nagell knew about some plot to assassinate some world leader -- it could have been Fidel Castro.  Nagell warned LHO that if he succeeded in getting a Visa to Cuba as he was seeking -- then Nagell would have to shoot LHO dead, just in order to keep his own cover as a double-agent.  LHO sat in his kitchen and wept about that.  He worried about the Mexico City trip, and instead tried to make a plan to hijack some airplane or other to Cuba.  The CIA didn't ignore anything Nagel said.

That’s not what Nagel said.  He said that BOTH the CIA and the FBI ignored his warnings.  

16. LHO did save all his US Marine's money to splurge on a European holiday.  His Marine buddies testified that he rarely went off the El Toro base.  He was tight with money.  He gave his ailing mother $100 and then went to Europe to splurge for the first time in his life.  When he was nearly out of money, he asked his mother to send him more, so he could apply to Albert Schweitzer college -- and he did apply and sent the money -- but he changed his mind and "fake defected" to the USSR instead.  He was bright -- but not bright enough.  He didn't have the Right Stuff.

Oh, please.  Harvey Oswald had the right stuff to complete successfully a two and a half year assignment in the Soviet Union even though the Russians suspected he was a spy.  He had to fake a suicide attempt in order to stay in country.  He married a Russian woman whose family had Russian intel connections.  At the start of his assignment he stayed at first class hotels on the way to Moscow and during his first days in Moscow. He also hired expensive private tourist guides at the very beginning of his stay.  James Bond couldn’t have done it a whole lot better.

17. When LHO returned to the USA, it was the FBI who debriefed him, because he was now a US Domestic problem. Actually, however, the CIA did admit that they considered interviewing Oswald. But in the long run they decided not to.  (Particularly after the Walker shooting.)

The CIA did everything it’s power to distance itself from Oswald because Oswald was a CIA employee.  They “considered” debriefing LHO?  LOL!

18. The US State Department investigated LHO very carefully.  They worked with LHO to ensure that he never surrendered his passport.  He was 19 years old, for goodness sake!  The US State Department had seen *many* cases like this by 1959.  Many of the boys changed their minds after only a few months.  None lasted much more than two years.  They would wait it out.  When LHO changed his mind in about two years, the US State Department reached out to help him, and lent him money.
You are mistaken, Jim, about LHO getting an OK to travel to Cuba.  That never happened.

The so-called ex-Marine traitor who left the Marine corps under false circumstances and “defected” to Russia to give away U.S. military secrets was granted a new passport in 1963 allowing travel to communist nations.  That DID happen. 

19. It wasn't just Allen Dulles and Earl Warren who wanted the JFK Truth hidden for 75 years -- it was also FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ as well as a dozen other powerful people in Washington DC.  National Security was the reason they cited -- and history will show they told the truth.  Which is to say, they told us the Truth about why they had to withhold the Truth for so long: "National Security.”

Harvey Oswald’s ties to both the FBI and the CIA made G-men, especially J. Edgar Hoover, all too happy to enter full scale cover-up mode.  Oswald had demonstrated that he would follow even difficult orders, critical in the days and hours before and immediately after the assassination. (He absolutely had to be in the right places at the right times to become a successful patsy.  And a patsy was absolutely critical for the plot to succeed.  Without one, the search for the plotters would have been relentless.)

20. CIA's Ann Egerter's testimony to the HSCA was a random comment that has been taken out of context, like a "gotcha!"  All she said was that a CIA 201 file was to "investigate Agency employees."   Her remark was not presented as the final definition of a CIA 201 file, but CIA-did-it fanatics treat it that way.

Ms. Egerter worked in J.J. Angleton's CI/SIG department and opened the 201 file on Oswald.  I'll take her word over Mr. Trejo's excuses.

21. JFK and the CIA were not at war with each other.  Despite angry feelings on both sides, as shown in the NY Times, and even after JFK shouted that he wanted to rip up the CIA to pieces and toss them to the wind -- those words were said in anger over the Bay of Pigs.  Anybody would be angry.  But afterwards, JFK actually *increased* the funding for the CIA.

Oh yeah?   President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

[Mathias Baumann]

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Mr. Wilcott said otherwise:

Mr. Preyer. That was shop talk, speculation, I gather;
people were saying that the CIA is somehow connected with it.
 
Mr. Wilcott. Well, I believed it to be a little more
than speculation, that the source at least of this kind of
talk was, I believe, to be something more serious than
speculation.
 
Mr. Preyer. It was your conclusion from that talk that
some of these people might have knowledge that he was a CIA
agent rather than that they were speculating about it?
 
Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.
 
Mr. Preyer. And you did mention the case officer who
came in and told you that the money he had drawn out a few
weeks earlier was drawn out for Oswald?
 
Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.
 
Mr. Preyer. He stated that as a fact and not that he
believed it was drawn out for Oswald or it could have been or
something like that?
 
Mr. Wilcott. It was stated as a fact -- Oswald or the
Oswald project.

 

Jim,

do you really think that this "case officer" would have refered to Oswald by his real name?

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Jim,

do you really think that this "case officer" would have refered to Oswald by his real name?

Yes, since Wilcott testified so.  After all, these weren't public conversations.  They were conducted in the CIA Tokyo field station immediately after the assassination. What else do you think CIA officers would privately talk about in relation to Agent Oswald?

[Mathias Baumann]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Yes, since Wilcott testified so.  After all, these weren't public conversations.  They were conducted in the CIA Tokyo field station immediately after the assassination. What else do you think CIA officers would privately talk about in relation to Agent Oswald?

Jim,

people are still wondering who QJWIN was. Dont't you think the CIA would have given Oswald a code name too if they really used him in some secret doppelganger project? And Oswald's real name would certainly only have been known to those immediately involved with him.

[Jim Hargrove]

Mathias,

I dunno.  Investigators always seem to “follow the money” and try to get the low-down from accountants, accountants like James Wilcott.  After all, bringing a check made out to “QJWIN” or “ZR/RIFLE” or something like that might raise eyebrows at a neighborhood bank.  Somebody has to know where the money goes.

Btw, Marina met Robert Webster in two different Russian cities, Moscow and Leningrad.  Some people would like us to believe that this was simply because she was trying to get out of the USSR, but the ease with which she traveled in country, and the ease with which she left suggests something more interesting.  

[Mathias Baumann]

20 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Mathias,

I dunno.  Investigators always seem to “follow the money” and try to get the low-down from accountants, accountants like James Wilcott.  After all, bringing a check made out to “QJWIN” or “ZR/RIFLE” or something like that might raise eyebrows at a neighborhood bank.  Somebody has to know where the money goes.

Btw, Marina met Robert Webster in two different Russian cities, Moscow and Leningrad.  Some people would like us to believe that this was simply because she was trying to get out of the USSR, but the ease with which she traveled in country, and the ease with which she left suggests something more interesting.  

Jim,

this thread about defector Marvin Kantor is also interesting:

Quote

Marina was taking English at Univ of Mich in March 1965 at same time Kantor was lecturing there. CIA apparently wanted to keep Marina and Kantor apart and asked help from FBI.

Just another strange coincidence? Or was Kantor another of Marina's "assignments"?

[Michael Walton]

1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Jim,

people are still wondering who QJWIN was. Dont't you think the CIA would have given Oswald a code name too if they really used him in some secret doppelganger project? And Oswald's real name would certainly only have been known to those immediately involved with him.

This is a very good point, Mathias.  You'd think that if they were planning activities for their agents (both Hardly and Lee) that they'd both need code names. So it's interesting that we've never, ever - not in any document to date - have seen them with a code name for Hardly and Lee. The most we've ever read in the current record is "Lee Harvey Oswald" as "...he's defecting..." or something like that. I think this is still more clear and decisive evidence that the one and only Lee H. Oswald existed like Bill Simpich explains, and Hardly never existed in the first place.

Good work, Mathias.

[Jim Hargrove]

Ah... once again it is obvious that Mr. Walton doesn't even know the basics of this case.  I thought he had read Wilcott's testimony, but, of course, he hasn't. If he had, he would have known that Wilcott talked at length about Oswald's cryptonym.  For example....

Mr. Goldsmith. Did this Case Officer tell you what Oswald's cryptonym was?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, he mentioned the cryptonym specifically under which the money was drawn.

Mr. Goldsmith. And what did he tell you the cryptonym was?

Mr. Wilcott. I cannot remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was your response to this revelation as to what Oswald's cryptonym was? Did you write it down or do anything?

Mr. Wilcott. No; I think that I looked through my advance book--and I had a book where the advances on project were run, and I leafed through them, and I must have at least leafed through them to see if what he said was true.

[Jim Hargrove]

Contrary to what the HSCA transcript shows, James Wilcott DID remember the cryptonym for what he called the “Oswald Project.”  It was RX-ZIM.  He clearly said this to HSCA personnel.  

 

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

Still waiting for replies.

[Mathias Baumann]

7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Still waiting for replies.

Jim,

I searched the Mary Ferrel website for "RX-ZIM". The only reference to this cryptonym appears to be Wilcott's HSCA interview and John Armstrong's book:

https://www.maryferrell.org/search.html?q=RX-ZIM

Then I did the same thing for QJWIN. Hundreds of cables and memos appeared:

https://www.maryferrell.org/search.html?q=QJWIN

So how come that a low-level accountant learned RX-ZIM's real name when this project was so secret that NO reference to it can be found in the CIA's files at all? That's just not very plausible.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said:

So how come that a low-level accountant learned RX-ZIM's real name when this project was so secret that NO reference to it can be found in the CIA's files at all? That's just not very plausible.

Mathias,

Wilcott didn't know Oswald's real name. He knew his cryptonym, because his disbursements were made by cryptonym. He first learned Oswald's real name from news report after the assassination. Of course at first he didn't know there was a link.

Some case officers were gossiping about the Oswald Project after the assassination. They shouldn't have been, but it happens. One of the case officers told Wilcott that he'd been making disbursements to pay this Oswald fellow. And he told Wilcott what Oswald's cryptonym was. Wilcott checked some personal notes and confirmed that the cryptonym was indeed one that he'd made disbursements to.