WHEN does Oswald crystallize into the patsy?

[Jason Ward]

14 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

I think it's a distinct possibility that the plotters learned about Oswald's association with Kostikov AFTER he came back to Dallas and THEN decided that his involvement in the assassination was desirable.

 

Mathias,

Some of your other points in the post I think could go either way, but I feel this last point you make is right on the money.    

I mean it seems that there were other potential LNs on deck to unwittingly play the patsy besides Oswald.  I think one might argue the other potential patsies were relatively established and in the final round of candidates before LHO.  As you point out, it seems Oswald in the Spring of 63 is being tasked back towards the USSR.   Then, Mexico happens.  Then the TSBD job happens.    I suggest his behavior may be less part of the plan to patsify Oswald and more like a typical entry of Oswald's Cold War intelligence CV, which towards D Day helps makes him the most competitively desirable  final choice.  To me, all this sheep-dipping is a nice-to-have attribute of a patsy but not a must-have, therefore I tend to think creating Oswald-the-patsy was perhaps not in place until relatively late; after Mexico.  I think for security reasons it makes sense to keep the patsy undecided unti as late as possible and just let whoever in the candidate pool bubbles up with the most style points get the job.   I think with money, intelligence connections, and experience you could almost pull any random guy off the street and turn him into the patsy; so having a patsy of some sort in place is not a real big issue.  Having a patsy in place that might effect foreign policy or sell well on Tv is a bigger issue, of course.  

I am drifting farther and farther into my own nonexistent CT here, but if the whole Cuban angle in the assassination is little more than a way to get Cuban exiles onboard, and not a primary objective of the prime mover(s) in command of the plot, they are looking more for an ideal patsy who will obey orders versus a patsy who is the ideal pseudo pro-Castro communist.  Reliable = 1st priority; anti-Castro Marxist = 2nd priority. Oswald was in my view unknowingly interviewing for the job of patsy and unfortunately for him he was hired for the job, but only late and only in a competitive process.   Like all job searches and hiring decisions, there are pros and cons and you end up making a judgment call knowing that for any hire you make, the guy you didn't hire might have turned out better.  So I think we tend to focus in on each minute detail of LHO and see it as a prelude to patsy status, when he could have been just a "regular" Cold War intelligence operative of some kind doing normal intelligence operative things - until - his CV outshines the others in terms of best projected patsy after Mexico.

thoughts?

 

Jason

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

11 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

...

.  Joseph Milteer told Willie Somerset about it sometime in September, 1963, IIRC.  

...

Paul, if we assume Milteer is what he seems then in my view this minimizes or perhaps even discounts completely the CIA as a high-level Washington-based force moving along the assassination. Agree?  It does not rule out CIA elements acting in rogue or cell fashion, such as perhaps in New Orleans and Miami.  However, Milteer is a big mouth and associated with the whole Southern KKK wing of the Birchers, so if the CIA involves him, they risk misfiring some association with JFK's death onto the wrong group of JFK-haters, white bigots in the South.   He's also wealthy which means he's independent.   The CIA has no legitimate use for him or reason to keep in the loop, agree?  In fact, he is a very obvious loose cannon threat to the plot, as his now widely distributed conversations bear out.  Milteer points towards non-government prime movers, or do you disagree?

Jason

Edited August 17, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

What I make of that is that the guy calling himself Oswald wanted to establish himself as something pretty rare in his day: someone who was intellectually on board with communism AND willing to work on it, however modest and flakey his "work" in New Orleans was.  I honestly think that's the end of what we can be certain about with the Fake FPCC CV and it's employment in Mexico as certification of "Oswald's" American Communist pro-Castro legend.

I don't see that this ties him nor the whole Mexican adventure in to the assassination.  It could be a step towards sending him to Cuba or back to the USSR - keeping in mind he had already initiated in the Spring of 63 a return to Moscow.  It could be a screw up, keeping in mind the CIA screws up at least as much of the rest of us.   It could be a step for infiltration into US communist groups, small though they are at this point.   It could be just the general nurturing and gardening necessary to overcome the Soviet-Cuban rightful suspicion of anyone who claims to be a fellow traveler.   The assassination link is weak because LHO can go so many different ways from Mexico.

Some of the points I think which indicate it was not with certainty part of the assassination is that Hoover on day 1 is already saying there's something fishy about the Mexico thing, including possibly 2+ Oswalds.   The picture fiasco is of course nearly fatal for the hope Mexico City somehow "helps" sell Oswald as a commie nut ready to kill a US president.   The laughably obvious way they retroactively had Alvarado claim he say money changing hands tells me that whatever the first purpose of the Mexico trip was, they only belatedly realized that it needed to fold into the assassination some how.  It just doesn't smell like assassination was the main destination at the time of Mexico, although I certainly concede Oswald could have been in the running for some suicidal role.

thanks for your kind conversation

Jason

Jason,

I think that Oswald had no intention of going back to the USSR -- he wrote to the Russian Embassy in Washington DC several times, knowing each time that the FBI would intercept the mail.  Oswald was building a persona.  James Hosty was watching all this like a hawk.

Lee Harvey Oswald, in my reading, was a CIA wannabe.  He would give anything to be hired full-time by the CIA.  We know he wasn't in the CIA because he had no money.  All CIA employees can take care of their families.  Not Oswald.

Oswald wanted to be in the CIA so bad he could taste it.  This explains his bizarre behavior in the eyes of those who knew him and testified about him to the WC -- including Marina and the Paines.

It seems that Oswald regarded the CIA as greater than the FBI -- and he wanted to tease the FBI with all these letters to the Russian Embassy in Washington DC.  That's also my reading of his last letter to the Russian Embassy (the one that the CIA-did-it CTers claim that Ruth Paine forged, along with the Walker Letter).

In my reading, Oswald wrote the "Russian Embassy Letter" to deliberately mock the FBI, and to get James Hosty in trouble -- or at least make him hopping mad.

In my reading, Lee Harvey Oswald regarded the Mexico City trip exactly as you described it, Jason.  It was a step in the direction of making a Pro-Castro Legend.

However -- the Fake FPCC document he took with him is too amateur to be professional.  Insofar as professionals were behind it, it was carefully designed to fail.  And Lee Harvey Oswald was too ignorant to notice that.  He really thought he could make it work.  It is significant that the Cuban Consulate laughed him out of their offices, and the Russian Embassy guys regarded Oswald as "psychotic" (Nechiporenko, 1993).

In no way were there ever Two Oswalds.  Most likely, David Morales impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald to ensure that the CIA had on file that Oswald met Kostikov.  That was the purpose of that impersonating telephone call.   Morales knew that this was the single most wire-tapped phone on planet earth.  Oswald didn't.

Oswald had no idea that Kostikov was a KGB killer, and didn't even remember his name correctly in the "Russian Embassy Letter."

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

1. ...However, how dis-interested is Marina?  If you read the original source statements given in the days and weeks after 22Nov, there are a lot of flip-flops and contradictions, with, I sense, her general narrative more and more moving towards the desired Lone Nut understanding.  

2. Her immediate responses were in my view catastrophic to the desired WR outcome.  As you say, it is impossible to solve the JFK conspiracy without her testimony.  

3. Keeping in mind our shared dedication to primary sources over conjecture and CT books, do you really discount the idea that Marina is motivated by other than fidelity to the truth?  

4. For one thing, she wants to stay in the US.  

5. They could have sent her back pretty quickly and easily.   For another thing, from what I read, Marina is less than enamored with Oswald, which is part of the reason she moves in with Ruth.  

6. Isn't it somewhere in the record that they had spoken of divorce?   

7. Just to go contrary to my stated allegiance to primary sources, why not consider that a Russian bride was part and parcel of the Soviet residency objectives?  

8. I'm not saying Oswald's marriage is a total sham, I'm just asking you if you are certain in your heart that Marina doesn't have a few competing motivations after 22Nov besides the truth and Oswald?  

9. Likewise, are you certain Oswald's Russian marriage is an unadulterated love story and not also particularly convenient to someone who hopes to return to Russia, perhaps even gaining Russian citizenship?

Marina is in fact key to the JFK solution, I agree with you.  She is key to the WR so she is inherently key to disproving the WR.   She lives in a modest house in a modest Dallas suburb; yet I bet she could secure a 7 figure book deal....if only.

Jason

Jason,

By the numbers:

1. Of course Marina Oswald, when she was first picked up by the Secret Service on 11/23/1963, was terrified and she denied everything.  Yet she was not under oath.

2.  Of course, since Marina Oswald denied everything in her initial panic, her denials would contradict the WR outcome.   What else would denials do?

3. I have read countless CT books that have been hateful toward Marina Oswald.  They offer no material evidence -- just cloak-and-dagger fiction -- so I now ignore them.

4.  Yes, Marina wanted to stay in the US, and the Secret Service correctly told her that the best way for her to ensure that she could stay in the USA would be to cooperate fully with the US Government.  One single mistake could send her back to the USSR.  Marina Oswald hated the USSR.  She promised to tell the TRUTH at that point, and she did.

5.  It is incorrect to say that Marina Oswald moved in with Ruth because Marina was disillusioned with Lee Harvey Oswald as a husband.

5.1.  The first time Marina Oswald moved in with Ruth Paine was in late April, 1963, when Oswald was abandoning Marina to move to New Orleans without her. 

5.2.  Oswald was going to leave Marina at the Neely Street apartment, and would send her a letter when he was ready for her.  (They had no phone).  Marina would be alone, pregnant, with a baby, and she spoke no English.

5.3.  Ruth Paine took Marina Oswald into her home out of sweet Quaker charity, and no other reason.  To make Marina feel less obligated, Ruth Paine told her that Marina could give her Russian conversational lessons. 

5.4.  It's also true that Ruth liked Marina personally, and enjoyed the company, since Michael Paine had separated from her.  Also, baby June called Ruth, "auntie Ruth," and Ruth liked that.  Child care was their most pressing concern.

5.5.  When Oswald finally got settled in New Orleans, he called Ruth Paine's house and told Marina, and Marina jumped for joy, and exclaimed to baby June, "Papa loves us!"

5.6.  So, no there was not much sign of lost love -- only worry on the part of Marina (and Ruth) that Lee Harvey Oswald might abandon his family.  That was the issue.

5.7.  The second time that Marina Oswald moved in with Ruth Paine, in September, 1963, she was eight months pregnant, had no money, had no health insurance, had not seen a doctor, and Lee Harvey Oswald was out of work for the 3rd time in one year.  

5.8.  So, again, that was sweet Quaker charity.  It is backward to propose any other conclusion.

6.  I find nowhere in the record where the Oswalds spoke of divorce. 

6.1.  Marina told Ruth Paine as early as March, 1963, that Lee Harvey Oswald would threaten to send Marina back to the USSR without him.  She was terrified of that.  Evidently, Lee Oswald said that to Marina to keep her under his thumb.

7.  It is ridiculous to think of Marina Oswald as a "gift" to Oswald from the KGB.   First and foremost, Marina hated the USSR and she hated Communism.  She wanted her own apartment (without roaches) as a primary goal in life.

8. Despite all the objections of Marina-haters out there, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that -- after taking the WC oath -- Marina Oswald told the TRUTH.

9. Some Russian Émigrés in Dallas testified that they believed Marina Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald to come to the USA, pure and simple.    I think that's cynical, although that could have been one among her many other motives for marriage.

9.1.   If Lee Harvey Oswald ever wanted Russian citizenship, he had four years inside Russia to apply for it.  He never did.  That should answer your question fully.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 17, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

8 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Paul, if we assume Milteer is what he seems then in my view this minimizes or perhaps even discounts completely the CIA as a high-level Washington-based force moving along the assassination. Agree?  It does not rule out CIA elements acting in rogue or cell fashion, such as perhaps in New Orleans and Miami.  However, Milteer is a big mouth and associated with the whole Southern KKK wing of the Birchers, so if the CIA involves him, they risk misfiring some association with JFK's death onto the wrong group of JFK-haters, white bigots in the South.   He's also wealthy which means he's independent.   The CIA has no legitimate use for him or reason to keep in the loop, agree?  In fact, he is a very obvious loose cannon threat to the plot, as his now widely distributed conversations bear out.  Milteer points towards non-government prime movers, or do you disagree?

Jason

Jason,

I agree with this fully.   I advise again that you peruse the recent book by Jeff Caufield, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).   This book features recent FOIA releases of FBI documents -- primary sources.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

      . . .

Lee Harvey Oswald, in my reading, was a CIA wannabe.  He would give anything to be hired full-time by the CIA.  We know he wasn't in the CIA because he had no money.  All CIA employees can take care of their families.  Not Oswald.

     . . .

In my reading, Lee Harvey Oswald regarded the Mexico City trip exactly as you described it, Jason.  It was a step in the direction of making a Pro-Castro Legend.

However -- the Fake FPCC document he took with him is too amateur to be professional.  Insofar as professionals were behind it, it was carefully designed to fail.  And Lee Harvey Oswald was too ignorant to notice that.  He really thought he could make it work.  It is significant that the Cuban Consulate laughed him out of their offices, and the Russian Embassy guys regarded Oswald as "psychotic" (Nechiporenko, 1993).

In no way were there ever Two Oswalds.  Most likely, David Morales impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald to ensure that the CIA had on file that Oswald met Kostikov.  That was the purpose of that impersonating telephone call.   Morales knew that this was the single most wire-tapped phone on planet earth.  Oswald didn't.

     . . .

Paul:

1. Your first point I think is very much ignored by most of the CT community; which means it has never been overcome or adequately addressed.  Oswald is barely above homelessness.   If you look around at the known active CIA agents or contract-assignment guys of the day (especially the numerous guys in Miami associated with JM/WAVE), they were all getting paid well and several of them years later admitted they were well motivated by the big dollars sloshing around from the CIA.  I mean I think half of the so-called anti-Castro Cubans at the worker bee level weren't as much passionate about Cuba as they were passionate about collecting CIA dollars.  But Oswald is collecting $33/week unemployment checks and relying on the charity/free clinic system to address the healthcare needs of both Marina and his infant children.   Even if part of a CT is that Oswald must appear as a kind of proletariat  angry at the way workers are exploited, it is not at all necessary he live in poverty.  I think he's given small dollars here and there but is not anything like a full time CIA employee.

2. OK, so if we agree that the Mexico trip is part of the general kind of "qualifications" one needs to assume a (non-assassination related) role in front line intelligence work in 1963; are you saying LHO is doing this 100% on his own initiative?   Or maybe upon the unpaid advice of someone like Bannister; ie, "Go to Mexico and get yourself noticed and we'll talk about upgrading your status and paygrade"?    You say the fake FPCC document is too professional for a LHO-solo effort...then who comes up with the Mexico idea; if not LHO, some New Orleans cell member; or ????

3. Just a little request for accuracy with nomenclature.  There are so many variations of the multiple Oswald theory going around that we've lost the ability to communicate on the topic and be sure we're talking about the same thing.   I would have almost called your Morales impersonation a second Oswald; but you declare there are not two Oswalds.   Fine, no contradiction there, I'm just pointing out that I might have told the exact same story you're suggesting but invoked another Oswald as my terminology; perhaps saying something like, "Oswald2 in Mexico City is actually David Morales...".   Anyway I just want to ask for precision on this point when we talk so there's no misunderstanding.

Because of your reminder this week I'm about half way through with the 2003 Lopez report.   If the CIA was involved in the assassination, the MC branch was certainly clueless about it as were the HQ support staff at Langley.   The only opening I can see is that possibly there is a rogue or cell of CIA that is not really active in the routine agency communications.  I'll finish Lopez today and have a few more points/questions, thanks,

Jason

Edited August 17, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

...2.  Why New Orleans?   Why not just keep everything around Dallas?   Not enough anti-castro feeling?  OR - LHO was sent to New Orleans to build his commie credentials, but at some point (WHEN?) the New Orleans cell gets sucked into the Dallas based assassination plot; such that while nominally still anti-Castro the N.O. cell is now focused on kill JFK.  Who makes this change in focus, when, why....?

I enjoy speaking with you,

Jason

Jason,

In my reading, the reason for New Orleans was because this was the home-town of Lee Harvey Oswald, and also because David Ferrie -- who knew Oswald from his youth -- could get his hooks into Oswald again.

In my reading, David Ferrie worked for Guy Banister, and Guy Banister worked in cooperation with General Walker in Dallas -- the recent victim of the Oswald Team shooting.

According to General Walker himself, he found out that Oswald was his shooter only DAYS after the April 10th shooting.  Here is my primary document:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf

Also, note that Lee Harvey Oswald rushes to New Orleans only two WEEKS after the Walker shooting.

In my humble opinion -- connecting the dots with the least supposition -- David Ferrie contacted Lee Harvey Oswald and offered Oswald a job in the CIA if he would cooperate with Guy Banister's operation in New Orleans.

The fact that Reily Coffee Company was literally walking distance from Guy Banister's office can be no accident.  Banister and Ferrie planned the sheep-dip as early as April, 1963.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 17, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jason Ward]

48 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

In no way were there ever Two Oswalds.  Most likely, David Morales impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald to ensure that the CIA had on file that Oswald met Kostikov. 

...

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Ever?

Never two Oswalds in Mexico or never two Oswalds since the beginning of time?

As the clock ticks down to D-Day Oswalds blossom all over the place in witness testimony.   There are repeated inexplicable sightings of Oswald at a barber shop and grocery store up the street from Ruth's house while LHO is at work; there are the numerous sightings at the Sportsdome rifle range; the car salesman at the Cadillac dealership says Oswald comes in for a test drive, promising to buy a new car in "a few weeks," and several more sightings, some of which aren't even in Dallas.

?

Jason

[Jason Ward]

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

1> In my reading, the reason for New Orleans was because this was the home-town of Lee Harvey Oswald, and also because David Ferrie -- who knew Oswald from his youth -- could get his hooks into Oswald again.

2> In my reading, David Ferrie worked for Guy Banister, and Guy Banister worked in cooperation with General Walker in Dallas -- the recent victim of the Oswald Team shooting.

3> According to General Walker himself, he found out that Oswald was his shooter only DAYS after the April 10th shooting.  Here is my primary document:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf

4> Also, note that Lee Harvey Oswald rushes to New Orleans only two WEEKS after the Walker shooting.

5> In my humble opinion -- connecting the dots with the least supposition -- David Ferrie contacted Lee Harvey Oswald and offered Oswald a job in the CIA if he would cooperate with Guy Banister's operation in New Orleans.

6> The fact that Reily Coffee Company was literally walking distance from Guy Banister's office can be no accident.  Banister and Ferrie planned the sheep-dip as early as April, 1963.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, 

Some of my questions below are not from disbelief in your opinion and are instead an invitation to firm up what you say and support your own allegations:

                           )   )reference my numbered accounting of your points above(   (

1> But isn't mother Oswald and brother Oswald living in DFW at the time of LHOs evacuation from Minsk?   Didn't LHO go to his last years of school in Arlington?    You really think LHO has a strong attachment to New Orleans as his hometown?   As for Ferrie, yes I agree that he leveraged his prior association with Oswald in the CAP somehow.   However, Ferrie surrounds himself with young men because of his sexuality.   Clay Shaw-Bertrand has dozens of boys acting as his houseboy, running errands, doing favors, etc., ; some of whom are just French Quarter hustlers, but some also of a caliber more sophisticated than Oswald.   No shortage of man/boy power in N.O.  Yet, Ferrie reaches back into time and across a 1000 miles to pluck Oswald into New Orleans out of the ether; when Ferrie/Shaw-Bertrand always have a dozen+ guys hanging around who are expendable?   Why make the effort towards LHO?   You consider LHO's time in Russia an essential line item on the CV for a patsy in the assassination?   It almost seems easier to set up some dumbass Bourbon Street rent boy as the patsy than Oswald, who is obviously able to think on his feet and more quickly realize the jeopardy he's in.   Why LHO over all others?

2>Can you cite some sources for the Banister - Walker connection of which you speak?   Something Loran Hall said?

3>Thanks for the primary document from Walker alleging he knew almost immediately Oswald tried to assassinate him at his Turtle Creek home.  I'd like to investigate this further and am doing so today.  As usual, it's important for me to rule out alternatives before accepting Walker's letter at face value.  Now, I ask you, when do you place the first PUBLIC mention of Oswald as Walker's shooter?  Do you not see the public release of the Walker shooting as manipulated? I've seen 3 points of potential first-public-word-on-the-matter mentioned: )i)an obscure German magazine with CIA ties; )ii) from the mouth of a reporter during one of Chief Curry's press gaggles while LHO is in custody, and )iii) a tiny 23NOV Dallas Morning News hidden away on about page 15 in which LHO is not named but which reads something like, 'police are not eliminating that the shooter of JFK and Walker are one and the same.'  I believe closely accounting for the public release of the Oswald-as-Walker's-failed-assassin narrative is potentially illuminating.

4> Isn't the Oswald family + Paine family explanation for this rather odd New Orleans move so that LHO can find a job?   Now, I grant you that Marina is a fish out of water and is arguably not in any position to question this as a more typical young American wife probably would; I mean, as far as she knows, it's perfectly normal for a husband to abandon Dallas and seek work in N.O.  But, really, aren't the expected thoughts of those around LHO: "What work is there [ostensibly] available in N.O. not available in DFW for someone of your skillset?" Yet is there any record of what I would expect the Oswalds/Paines to say then or post-assassination to the effect of, "Lee taking off for New Orleans made no sense to me at the time and frankly there are enough jobs in Dallas."???    For that matter, if Ruth Paine and/or George DeM. are CIA Oswald-handlers, why does s/he let Oswald wonder off to N.O......I presume the explanation is in the CIA-driven-narrative that Ruth/DeM. "passes off" LHO to someone in the N.O. cell???

5> Without at all getting homophobic in my own personal thoughts, nevertheless 1963 is not 2017.  Does David Ferrie seem like a believable CIA agent to you?   An ex-Eastern Air Lines pilot fired for being gay with an unusual look who is not anything like James Bond? ... granted LHO already knew Ferrie, but if Ferrie were my ex-CAP squadron leader and called me out of the blue years later to join the CIA, I would think it's more likely he's hiring for gay houseboys in Clay ShawBertrand's merry go round than acting as a legitimate CIA headhunter.  As an aside, my dad was an EAL pilot based in Houston and knew David Ferrie; yes he was considered weird and no one knew how he got the job in the first place.  When at the time of Oliver Stone's movie and Joe Pesci playing Ferrie, my dad said yes Pesci did a good job channeling Ferrie's inherent weirdness but he found it strange that any wealthy-intelligent force would include Ferrie in an important scheme.  I'd almost more likely believe that LHO already had some type of CIA contact pre-New Orleans who sent him Ferrie's way.

6> ehhh.... I lived in NO for awhile and everything that's anything is walking distance from Canal or Poydras.   Any job a young nominally untalented guy could get in NO is very likely to be walking distance from Banister, but this point is not important, don't worry about it.

 

thanks,

Jason

Edited August 17, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Michael Clark]

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

By the numbers:

1. Of course Marina Oswald, when she was first picked up by the Secret Service on 11/23/1963, was terrified and she denied everything.  Yet she was not under oath.

2.  Of course, since Marina Oswald denied everything in her initial panic, her denials would contradict the WR outcome.   What else would denials do?

3. I have read countless CT books that have been hateful toward Marina Oswald.  They offer no material evidence -- just cloak-and-dagger fiction -- so I now ignore them.

4.  Yes, Marina wanted to stay in the US, and the Secret Service correctly told her that the best way for her to ensure that she could stay in the USA would be to cooperate fully with the US Government.  One single mistake could send her back to the USSR.  Marina Oswald hated the USSR.  She promised to tell the TRUTH at that point, and she did.

5.  It is incorrect to say that Marina Oswald moved in with Ruth because Marina was disillusioned with Lee Harvey Oswald as a husband.

5.1.  The first time Marina Oswald moved in with Ruth Paine was in late April, 1963, when Oswald was abandoning Marina to move to New Orleans without her. 

5.2.  Oswald was going to leave Marina at the Neely Street apartment, and would send her a letter when he was ready for her.  (They had no phone).  Marina would be alone, pregnant, with a baby, and she spoke no English.

5.3.  Ruth Paine took Marina Oswald into her home out of sweet Quaker charity, and no other reason.  To make Marina feel less obligated, Ruth Paine told her that Marina could give her Russian conversational lessons. 

5.4.  It's also true that Ruth liked Marina personally, and enjoyed the company, since Michael Paine had separated from her.  Also, baby June called Ruth, "auntie Ruth," and Ruth liked that.  Child care was their most pressing concern.

5.5.  When Oswald finally got settled in New Orleans, he called Ruth Paine's house and told Marina, and Marina jumped for joy, and exclaimed to baby June, "Papa loves us!"

5.6.  So, no there was not much sign of lost love -- only worry on the part of Marina (and Ruth) that Lee Harvey Oswald might abandon his family.  That was the issue.

5.7.  The second time that Marina Oswald moved in with Ruth Paine, in September, 1963, she was eight months pregnant, had no money, had no health insurance, had not seen a doctor, and Lee Harvey Oswald was out of work for the 3rd time in one year.  

5.8.  So, again, that was sweet Quaker charity.  It is backward to propose any other conclusion.

6.  I find nowhere in the record where the Oswalds spoke of divorce. 

6.1.  Marina told Ruth Paine as early as March, 1963, that Lee Harvey Oswald would threaten to send Marina back to the USSR without him.  She was terrified of that.  Evidently, Lee Oswald said that to Marina to keep her under his thumb.

7.  It is ridiculous to think of Marina Oswald as a "gift" to Oswald from the KGB.   First and foremost, Marina hated the USSR and she hated Communism.  She wanted her own apartment (without roaches) as a primary goal in life.

8. Despite all the objections of Marina-haters out there, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that -- after taking the WC oath -- Marina Oswald told the TRUTH.

9. Some Russian Émigrés in Dallas testified that they believed Marina Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald to come to the USA, pure and simple.    I think that's cynical, although that could have been one among her many other motives for marriage.

9.1.   If Lee Harvey Oswald ever wanted Russian citizenship, he had four years inside Russia to apply for it.  He never did.  That should answer your question fully.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Among the other bunk that Paul unloads above is the claim that LHO did not request Citizenship in Russia. I repeatedly correct him on that point, among others, yet he still keeps repeating the same claims.

On 4/29/2017 at 3:59 PM, Michael Clark said:

Paul. I have, twice now, responded to your repeated claim that LHO did not hand in his passport, reounce citizenship, or apply for Soviet citizenship.

You keep repeating that claim.

Perhaps you are aware of some evidence that backs-up your repeated claim? If you do have such evidence I would be interested in seeing it, because I have repeatedly posted evidence to the contrary.

--------------------

Diary of LHO:

Oct.16. Arrive from Helsinki by train ;am met by Intourest Repre.and in car to Hotel "Berlin". Reges. as. "studet" 5 day Lux .tourist. Ticket.) Meet my Intorist guied Rimma Sherikova I explain to her I wish to appli. for Rus.citizenship. She is flabber;assed, but aggrees to help. She checks with her boss, main officeIntour;than helps me add.a letter to Sup.Sovit asking for citizenship, mean while boss telephone passport & visa office and notifies them about me.

Oct.31. I make my dision. Getting passport at 12"00 I meet and talk with Rimma for a few minutes she says:stay in your room and eat well, I don't tell her about what I intend to do since I know she would not approve. After she leaves I wait a few minutes and than I catch a taxi, "American Embassy" I say. 12"30, I arrive American Embassy, I walk in and say to the receptionist `I would like to see the Consular" she points at a large lager and says"if you a tourist please register". I take out my American passport and lay it o the desk. "I have come to dissolve my American citizenship. I saymatter-of-factly she rises and enters the office of Richard Snyder

American Head Consular in Moscow at that time. He invites me to sit r down. He finishes a letter he is typing and then asks what he can do for me. I tell him I have dicided to take Soviet citizenship and would like to leagly dissolve my U .S.citizenship. His assitant (now Head Consular) McVickers e looks up from his work . Snyder serys- takes down personall Information,

Jan.5. ........Iwrotemy brother & mother letters in which I said "I do not wish to every contact you again." Iam defining a new life and I don't wand any part of the old".

July - I decided to take my two week vacation and travel to Moscow (without police permission) to the American Embassy to see about getting my US passport back.

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

5 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Paul, 

Some of my questions below are not from disbelief in your opinion and are instead an invitation to firm up what you say and support your own allegations:

                           )   )reference my numbered accounting of your points above(   (

1> But isn't mother Oswald and brother Oswald living in DFW at the time of LHOs evacuation from Minsk?   Didn't LHO go to his last years of school in Arlington?    You really think LHO has a strong attachment to New Orleans as his hometown?   As for Ferrie, yes I agree that he leveraged his prior association with Oswald in the CAP somehow.   However, Ferrie surrounds himself with young men because of his sexuality.   Clay Shaw-Bertrand has dozens of boys acting as his houseboy, running errands, doing favors, etc., ; some of whom are just French Quarter hustlers, but some also of a caliber more sophisticated than Oswald.   No shortage of man/boy power in N.O.  Yet, Ferrie reaches back into time and across a 1000 miles to pluck Oswald into New Orleans out of the ether; when Ferrie/Shaw-Bertrand always have a dozen+ guys hanging around who are expendable?   Why make the effort towards LHO?   You consider LHO's time in Russia an essential line item on the CV for a patsy in the assassination?   It almost seems easier to set up some dumbass Bourbon Street rent boy as the patsy than Oswald, who is obviously able to think on his feet and more quickly realize the jeopardy he's in.   Why LHO over all others?

2>Can you cite some sources for the Banister - Walker connection of which you speak?

3>Thanks for the primary document from Walker alleging he knew almost immediately Oswald tried to assassinate him at his Turtle Creek home.  I'd like to investigate this further and am doing so today.  As usual, it's important for me to rule out alternatives before accepting Walker's letter at face value.  Now, I ask you, when do you place the first PUBLIC mention of Oswald as Walker's shooter?  I've seen 3 points of potential first-public-word-on-the-matter mentioned: )i)an obscure German magazine with CIA ties; )ii) from the mouth of a reporter during one of Chief Curry's press gaggles while LHO is in custody, and )iii) a tiny 23NOV Dallas Morning News hidden away on about page 15 in which LHO is not named but which reads something like, 'police are not eliminating that the shooter of JFK and Walker are one and the same.'  I believe closely accounting for the public release of the Oswald-as-Walker's-failed-assassin narrative is potentially illuminating.

4> Isn't the Oswald family + Paine family explanation for this rather odd New Orleans move so that LHO can find a job?   Now, I grant you that Marina is a fish out of water and is arguably not in any position to question this as a more typical young American wife probably would; I mean, as far as she knows, it's perfectly normal for a husband to abandon Dallas and seek work in N.O.  But, really, aren't the expected thoughts of those around LHO: "What work is there [ostensibly] available in N.O. not available in DFW for someone of your skillset?" Yet is there any record of what I would expect the Oswalds/Paines to say then or post-assassination to the effect of, "Lee taking off for New Orleans made no sense to me at the time and frankly there are enough jobs in Dallas."???    For that matter, if Ruth Paine and/or George DeM. are CIA Oswald-handlers, why does s/he let Oswald wonder off to N.O......I presume the explanation is in the CIA-driven-narrative that Ruth/DeM. "passes off" LHO to someone in the N.O. cell???

5> Without at all getting homophobic in my own personal thoughts, nevertheless 1963 is not 2017.  Does David Ferrie seem like a believable CIA agent to you?   An ex-Eastern Air Lines pilot fired for being gay with an unusual look who is not anything like James Bond? ... granted LHO already knew Ferrie, but if Ferrie were my ex-CAP squadron leader and called me out of the blue years later to join the CIA, I would think its more likely he's hiring for gay houseboys in Clay ShawBertrand's merry go round than a legitimate CIA headhunter.  As an aside, my dad was an EAL pilot based in Houston and knew David Ferrie; yes he was considered weird and no one knew how he got the job in the first place.  I'd almost more likely believe that LHO already had some type of CIA contact pre-New Orleans who sent him Ferrie's way.

6> ehhh.... I lived in NO for awhile and everything that's anything is walking distance from Canal or Poydras.   Any job a young nominally untalented guy could get in NO is very likely to be walking distance from Banister, but this point is not important, don't worry about it.

 

thanks,

Jason

Jason, I am not going to sort through Paul's myths above, but if he is saying that Walker knew, soon after the shooting, that LHO shot at him, Walker makes no mention of it until after the assassination.

[Jason Ward]

1 minute ago, Michael Clark said:

Jason, I am not going to sort through Paul's myths above, but if he is saying that Walker knew, soon after the shooting, that LHO shot at him, Walker makes no mention of it until after the assassination.

Thanks for stepping in Michael.

Yes, I think you cast legitimate suspicion on any talk from Walker that he knew Oswald was after him before Oswald became world famous.    Like so much of the story here, a lot of it seems all-too-conveniently released only AFTER 22Nov.   Even so, the letter Paul cites is ...interesting.  Walker is shortly to be twice arrested for sex in a public toilet so it may be he's going off the rails mentally, but I don't see any self-serving purpose for Walker to claim in 1975 that he always knew Oswald was his attempted assassin, do you?

Jason

[Michael Clark]

1 minute ago, Jason Ward said:

Thanks for stepping in Michael.

Yes, I think you cast legitimate suspicion on any talk from Walker that he knew Oswald was after him before Oswald became world famous.    Like so much of the story here, a lot of it seems all-too-conveniently released only AFTER 22Nov.   Even so, the letter Paul cites is ...interesting.  Walker is shortly to be twice arrested for sex in a public toilet so it may be he's going off the rails mentally, but I don't see any self-serving purpose for Walker to claim in 1975 that he always knew Oswald was his attempted assassin, do you?

Jason

Well, yeah, he is maintaining that LHO tried to kill him, for starters. I don't happen to believe that.

[Jason Ward]

10 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Among the other bunk that Paul unloads above is the claim that LHO did not request Citizenship in Russia. I repeatedly correct him on that point, among others, yet he still keeps repeating the same claims.

 

Hi Michael,

I too THOUGHT I was aware of the evidence that Oswald sought citizenship in the USSR.  After further thought, I only am aware that Oswald SAID he applied for Soviet citizenship. But, whether he did or didn't does not seem to me germane to the assassination plot.  Do you think this point is important for solving the assassination?

Jason

Edited August 18, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Michael Clark]

1 minute ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Michael,

I too am aware of the evidence Oswald sought citizenship in the USSR.   But, whether he did or didn't does not seem to me germane to the assassination plot.  Do you think this point is important for solving the assassination?

Jason

No, but it is evidence that Paul Trejo repeatedly peddles bunk that he knows is false.