WHEN does Oswald crystallize into the patsy?

[Sandy Larsen]

On 8/16/2017 at 11:43 AM, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

I think you also believe that David Morales was involved in the assassination. I believe he may have been one of the men who tried to buy trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership. One of the men was described as a muscular latino who had a scar over his left eye brow.

I think I've found something in a photograph of Morales that could be a scar. Do you know of any other evidence that could corroborate this?

 

 

Mathias,

I know that forum member Thomas Graves has talked about Morales' scar over his eyebrow on numerous occasions. I thought it was common knowledge that Morales had that scar, but I could be wrong. According to a Garrison investigator,  a guy matching Morales's description, including scar, was seen observing Oswald handing out FPCC pamphlets in New Orleans. A guy was reportedly seen in the Carousel Club with Oswald, and he also matched Morales's description. I think there was one more sighting, but I cannot recall at the moment.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

13 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

... if I'm reading you correctly,  your belief is that the FBI is completely out of the loop before 22 November, right?  

What I believe is that Oswald was off the FBI watch list during the MC trip extending though the assassination. I'm not very familiar with that point and am trusting those who have shown it to be the case.

 

13 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Likewise, given that you put Johnson making a decision to make Oswald into a Lone Nut, your thinking is LBJ either knows nothing of the plot OR may have insulated himself so much that he only knows he will be made president and nothing more, right?

LBJ certainly had a lot to gain from Kennedy's assassination. Like not being investigated for the Bobby Baker affair. But I haven't formed an opinion as to whether or not he knew about the assassination beforehand.

I believe that Mac Wallace's fingerprint was planted in the evidence. I believe that the plotters planned to use it as blackmail against LBJ if he did something they couldn't accept.

 

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

LBJ certainly had a lot to gain from Kennedy's assassination. Like not being investigated for the Bobby Baker affair. But I haven't formed an opinion as to whether or not he knew about the assassination beforehand.

I believe that Mac Wallace's fingerprint was planted in the evidence. I believe that the plotters planned to use it as blackmail against LBJ if he did something they couldn't accept.

 

Yes, well if you believe the Vietnam War was a goal of whoever put him in the White House, then LBJ delivered.  LBJ had so many skeletons in the closet such as Billy Sol Estes and a dozen shady business deals that he might be the biggest blackmail target in presidential history.  However, I do find it curious that LBJ was such a proponent of Civil Rights.   With that he aligns himself right back with the assassinated men: JFK, RFK, & MLK.  If you believe the ultra-right was a driving force in the assassination, then Johnson really betrayed them.   I've seen several theories that LBJ didn't run again in '68 because of his civil rights crusades and a personal loss of interest in Vietnam; such that the Bircher-types wanted him out in favor of Nixon.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

7 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

...

According to General Walker himself, 

...

 

Paul,

 

If your Walker-centric idea is correct; the assassination was solved on 27 November 1963:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95643&relPageId=311&search=russell_farrell

 

Jason

[Jason Ward]

8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

 

According to General Walker himself, he found out that Oswald was his shooter only DAYS after the April 10th shooting.  Here is my primary document:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf

 

 

But DPD says something else:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142&relPageId=788&search=m.w._stevenson

"...there was no information or record in this department that LEE HARVEY OSWALD was a suspect in any case in that department and that LEE HARVEY OSWALD was unknown to the Dallas Police Department prior to the assassination of President Kennedy..."

                           ---DPD Deputy Chief M. W. Stevenson to FBI, December 7, 1963

{ a few pages later }

"...it is difficult to investigate any type of matter where General WALKER is involved since WALKER apparently does not know the truth from fiction and leads the police up many blind alleys."

                         ---DPD Captain O. A. Jones to FBI, December 7, 1963

Edited August 17, 2017 by Jason Ward

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

Oswald never` travelled to Mexico City in late Sep early Nov 1963

Why was Oswald impersonated in the Cuban and Russian consulates if he was going there anyway? According to the WC, Oswald went to Mexico City to get an in transit visa for Cuba and a visa for Russia. The only reason to fake his presence in Mexico City is that he wasn't going there.

I'm not sure when Oswald was designated the patsy by the plotters. If I was to guess, it's probably when David Phillips becomes his handler.

[Jason Ward]

1 minute ago, George Sawtelle said:

Jason

Oswald never` travelled to Mexico City in late Sep early Nov 1963

Why was Oswald impersonated in the Cuban and Russian consulates if he was going there anyway? According to the WC, Oswald went to Mexico City to get an in transit visa for Cuba and a visa for Russia. The only reason to fake his presence in Mexico City is that he wasn't going there.

I'm not sure when Oswald was designated the patsy by the plotters. If I was to guess, it's probably when David Phillips becomes his handler.

Many thanks for the reply, George.

I am interested in this date of patsification because I'm not sure its worth looking at Oswald anytime before he's the patsy.  I mean, there's already a ton out there about pre-patsy Oswald; I feel fruitful answers are most likely found by looking at the evidence after he's designated patsy.

If Oswald isn't in Mexico, where was he?   You feel the Mexican trip memorabilia found among his stuff was planted?  I know Sylvia Odio says she met Oswald during the time of the alleged Mexico trip; but she only decided on this date later - when she first gave a statement she wasn't so sure when she saw him.  There are also a few people who say they rode on the bus with him from Laredo to MC...

Thanks again,

Jason

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

The info from the WC, FBI and CIA is tainted. One doesn't know what to believe. But if someone lies to me I stop believing that someone.

I believe Oswald and the two Cubans drove up from Laredo and met with Odio on the evening of 26 Oct. 

The CIA and FB muddied up the waters. When the water `clears you see the fish. Well eliminate the Mexico fake documentation and you see the Mexico City affair for what it is ...  the impersonation of Oswald.

You are on the right track. However I think the patsification of Oswald was before he got the job at the TSBD.

[Paul Trejo]

12 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Ever?

Never two Oswalds in Mexico or never two Oswalds since the beginning of time?

As the clock ticks down to D-Day Oswalds blossom all over the place in witness testimony.   There are repeated inexplicable sightings of Oswald at a barber shop and grocery store up the street from Ruth's house while LHO is at work; there are the numerous sightings at the Sportsdome rifle range; the car salesman at the Cadillac dealership says Oswald comes in for a test drive, promising to buy a new car in "a few weeks," and several more sightings, some of which aren't even in Dallas.

?

Jason

Jason,

Almost every famous murder case has its share of "mistaken identity" eye-witnesses.

In the case of the FBI Lone-Nut theory, the "mistaken identity" eye-witnesses of Oswald were given high value.

That is the ONLY source that I can see for the long-time CIA-did-it fiction that there were EVER two Oswalds.

Simple cases of "mistaken identity."   I'm willing to go over every case in the WC testimony with you on this score.  

 Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Paul,

If your Walker-centric idea is correct; the assassination was solved on 27 November 1963:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95643&relPageId=311&search=russell_farrell

Jason

Jason,

That's right -- and there's plenty more where that came from.  Lots and lots.  Keep up the great work.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

9 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Paul, 

Some of my questions below are not from disbelief in your opinion and are instead an invitation to firm up what you say and support your own allegations:

                           )   )reference my numbered accounting of your points above(   (

1> But isn't mother Oswald and brother Oswald living in DFW at the time of LHOs evacuation from Minsk?   Didn't LHO go to his last years of school in Arlington?    You really think LHO has a strong attachment to New Orleans as his hometown?   As for Ferrie, yes I agree that he leveraged his prior association with Oswald in the CAP somehow.   However, Ferrie surrounds himself with young men because of his sexuality.   Clay Shaw-Bertrand has dozens of boys acting as his houseboy, running errands, doing favors, etc., ; some of whom are just French Quarter hustlers, but some also of a caliber more sophisticated than Oswald.   No shortage of man/boy power in N.O.  Yet, Ferrie reaches back into time and across a 1000 miles to pluck Oswald into New Orleans out of the ether; when Ferrie/Shaw-Bertrand always have a dozen+ guys hanging around who are expendable?   Why make the effort towards LHO?   You consider LHO's time in Russia an essential line item on the CV for a patsy in the assassination?   It almost seems easier to set up some dumbass Bourbon Street rent boy as the patsy than Oswald, who is obviously able to think on his feet and more quickly realize the jeopardy he's in.   Why LHO over all others?

2>Can you cite some sources for the Banister - Walker connection of which you speak?   Something Loran Hall said?

3>Thanks for the primary document from Walker alleging he knew almost immediately Oswald tried to assassinate him at his Turtle Creek home.  I'd like to investigate this further and am doing so today.  As usual, it's important for me to rule out alternatives before accepting Walker's letter at face value.  Now, I ask you, when do you place the first PUBLIC mention of Oswald as Walker's shooter?  Do you not see the public release of the Walker shooting as manipulated? I've seen 3 points of potential first-public-word-on-the-matter mentioned: )i)an obscure German magazine with CIA ties; )ii) from the mouth of a reporter during one of Chief Curry's press gaggles while LHO is in custody, and )iii) a tiny 23NOV Dallas Morning News hidden away on about page 15 in which LHO is not named but which reads something like, 'police are not eliminating that the shooter of JFK and Walker are one and the same.'  I believe closely accounting for the public release of the Oswald-as-Walker's-failed-assassin narrative is potentially illuminating.

4> Isn't the Oswald family + Paine family explanation for this rather odd New Orleans move so that LHO can find a job?   Now, I grant you that Marina is a fish out of water and is arguably not in any position to question this as a more typical young American wife probably would; I mean, as far as she knows, it's perfectly normal for a husband to abandon Dallas and seek work in N.O.  But, really, aren't the expected thoughts of those around LHO: "What work is there [ostensibly] available in N.O. not available in DFW for someone of your skillset?" Yet is there any record of what I would expect the Oswalds/Paines to say then or post-assassination to the effect of, "Lee taking off for New Orleans made no sense to me at the time and frankly there are enough jobs in Dallas."???    For that matter, if Ruth Paine and/or George DeM. are CIA Oswald-handlers, why does s/he let Oswald wonder off to N.O......I presume the explanation is in the CIA-driven-narrative that Ruth/DeM. "passes off" LHO to someone in the N.O. cell???

5> Without at all getting homophobic in my own personal thoughts, nevertheless 1963 is not 2017.  Does David Ferrie seem like a believable CIA agent to you?   An ex-Eastern Air Lines pilot fired for being gay with an unusual look who is not anything like James Bond? ... granted LHO already knew Ferrie, but if Ferrie were my ex-CAP squadron leader and called me out of the blue years later to join the CIA, I would think it's more likely he's hiring for gay houseboys in Clay ShawBertrand's merry go round than acting as a legitimate CIA headhunter.  As an aside, my dad was an EAL pilot based in Houston and knew David Ferrie; yes he was considered weird and no one knew how he got the job in the first place.  When at the time of Oliver Stone's movie and Joe Pesci playing Ferrie, my dad said yes Pesci did a good job channeling Ferrie's inherent weirdness but he found it strange that any wealthy-intelligent force would include Ferrie in an important scheme.  I'd almost more likely believe that LHO already had some type of CIA contact pre-New Orleans who sent him Ferrie's way.

6> ehhh.... I lived in NO for awhile and everything that's anything is walking distance from Canal or Poydras.   Any job a young nominally untalented guy could get in NO is very likely to be walking distance from Banister, but this point is not important, don't worry about it.

thanks,

Jason

Jason, 

1>  First, the recruitment of Lee Harvey Oswald to Guy Banister's right-wing cell in New Orleans had nothing to do with homosexuality.   Nothing.   The fact that David Ferrie and Clay Shaw were homosexual is completely irrelevant to the argument.  David Ferrie knew Oswald from CAP years ago, and convinced Oswald to move to New Orleans.

1.1.  The attraction for Oswald would have been more than just his home-town -- it would have been something that Oswald desperately wanted -- like a high-paying job as a double-agent in the CIA.   This was Oswald's button, and David Ferrie knew it because Ferrie had known Oswald in his home town.

1.2.  Why make the effort towards LHO?   Because LHO tried to kill General Walker.  That's it.  That's all.   Ron Lewis in his book, FLASHBACK: The Untold Story of Lee Harvey Oswald (1993) claims to have known Oswald in the summer of 1963 in New Orleans, and he says the same thing.

2>  As for sources, Jason, I've been trying to interest you in the 900 page tome by Jeff Caufield, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).  It has primary sources, e.g. recent FOIA releases of FBI records.

3> As for  the first PUBLIC mention of Oswald as Walker's shooter, I believe it is this one which was spread by General Walker himself:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19631129_Deutsche_NZ.jpg

3.1.  As for the mere hint of it in the DMN on 23Nov1963, I believe that General Walker also spread that rumor, probably through Robert Allan Surrey.   We don't know for sure -- but the next several articles that suggest Oswald was Walker's shooter (e.g. in the National Enquirer) also have General Walker's style and wording.  If anybody has better evidence, they haven't shown it.

3.2.  The public release of Oswald as Walker's assassin was publicly released by Walker himself for the rest of his life.  Here's the last one he wrote before he died:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19920119_EAW_Oswald_arrested.pdf

4>  The Oswald+Paine logic of Oswald moving to New Orleans comes from Lee Harvey Oswald himself.  Marina says that she encouraged Lee to get out of Dallas because she was certain the police were looking for him because of the Walker shooting.  Asked and answered.

4.1.  Any notion that Ruth Paine is a "handler" of Lee Harvey Oswald is cloak-and-dagger fiction, with no material evidence.  Useless, IMHO; a massive waste of valuable time.

5>  In my reading, David Ferrie was never a CIA officer.   Never.  He was a mercenary like Frank Sturgis and Gerry Patrick Hemming.   David Ferrie probably told  Lee Harvey Oswald that he was a CIA agent, and that he could get LHO a job in the CIA if LHO cooperated in Banister's Fake FPCC.   That would explain months of behavior.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Michael,

I too am aware of the evidence Oswald sought citizenship in the USSR...

Jason

Jason,

Do you claim to have seen REAL EVIDENCE that Oswald sought citizenship in the USSR?   I have seen zero, zip, none.  Please show me what you have.  I'm interested.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

 

But DPD says something else:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142&relPageId=788&search=m.w._stevenson

"...there was no information or record in this department that LEE HARVEY OSWALD was a suspect in any case in that department and that LEE HARVEY OSWALD was unknown to the Dallas Police Department prior to the assassination of President Kennedy..."

                           ---DPD Deputy Chief M. W. Stevenson to FBI, December 7, 1963

{ a few pages later }

"...it is difficult to investigate any type of matter where General WALKER is involved since WALKER apparently does not know the truth from fiction and leads the police up many blind alleys."

                         ---DPD Captain O. A. Jones to FBI, December 7, 1963

Jason,

In my reading, the Dallas Police had to accuse General Walker of being crazy, with all this talk about the Dallas authorities having arrested Oswald in April 1963, for the shooting of Walker, and then letting him go.

Yet General Walker stuck by that story for the rest of his life.

Here is my take on Walker's story.   The personal papers of General Walker include many versions of this story -- that is, many variations.  The variable in every case is THE PERSON who told Walker about Oswald days after the shooting.

The reason that Walker obscured the title of this informant was the same reason that Walker never NAMED that informant, namely, to conceal his true identity.  Suffice to say that it was a person with a high office in Dallas who was in a position to know.

The person -- in my surmise -- was James Hosty.   Why do I say that?  Because James Hosty (by his own admission) was watching Lee Harvey Oswald in early 1963, because of these many letters to the Russian Embassy in Washington DC.

Hosty was a close, personal associate with Robert Allan Surrey and by proxy with General Walker.   Hosty was -- in my surmise -- a secret supporter of the Radical Right in Dallas.  Hosty had switched loyalties (much as David Morales had switched loyalties.)

How did Hosty come to suspect Oswald of the Walker shooting?  We are told by Dick Russell in his famous book, The Man Who Knew Too Much (1992).  Dick Russell interviewed the friends of George De Mohrenschildt, namely, Igor and Natahsa Voshinin --- loyal Russian-Americans.  

Four days after the Walker shooting, George and Jeanne DeM had visited the Oswalds, found the rifle, and pushed Oswald for a confession.   Oswald said nothing but he and Marina had profoundly guilty looks on their faces.  Then George burst out laughing and they all burst out laughing, and that was the end of the night.  In fact, that was the end of their friendship -- the DeMorhenschilts never saw the Oswalds together again during the rest of their lives.

That next day, Easter Sunday, George woke up early and told his friends, Igor and Natasha Voshinin about his suspicions.  They insisted that George call the FBI.  He refused.  He left.  Then Natasha told Dick Russell that she herself picked up the phone right away and called the FBI, and told them everything that George DeM has said.

Since the name of the suspect was Lee Harvey Oswald, and since in the FBI, it was James Hosty who was tracking LHO, the call very likely went directly to James Hosty.   And that's how the FBI knew on Easter Sunday 1963, and he told General Walker that very day.

Thus -- this is the actual meaning of Walker's letter to Frank Church, in my reading.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

21 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

Do you claim to have seen REAL EVIDENCE that Oswald sought citizenship in the USSR?   I have seen zero, zip, none.  Please show me what you have.  I'm interested.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 I probably don't.  Probably I am thinking of Oswald telling the US embassy in Moscow that he will or has already applied for Soviet citizenship.  Anyway, I don't care about that.  Check your messages. 

Jason

[Paul Trejo]

12 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

 I probably don't.  Probably I am thinking of Oswald telling the US embassy in Moscow that he will or has already applied for Soviet citizenship.  Anyway, I don't care about that...

Jason

Then please do me a favor and don't say that you do, when you probably don't.  It encourages the blithe.

Oswald refused to give up his US Passport to the very last day.  He refused to join the Communist Party in Russia.  He refused Russian citizenship.   He was a poser.  As soon as Marina crooked her little finger and said, "Let's go to the USA, honey," Oswald was packed and spent months fighting the system to get them all out.  That's what the paperwork actually shows.   The US State Department has all these records.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo