WHEN does Oswald crystallize into the patsy?

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

In my reading, the Dallas Police had to accuse General Walker of being crazy, with all this talk about the Dallas authorities having arrested Oswald in April 1963, for the shooting of Walker, and then letting him go.

Yet General Walker stuck by that story for the rest of his life.

Here is my take on Walker's story.   The personal papers of General Walker include many versions of this story -- that is, many variations.  The variable in every case is THE PERSON who told Walker about Oswald days after the shooting.

The reason that Walker obscured the title of this informant was the same reason that Walker never NAMED that informant, namely, to conceal his true identity.  Suffice to say that it was a person with a high office in Dallas who was in a position to know.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I'm not buying it that DPD had Oswald as Walker's assassin in April and let him go.   I've stumbled across a few of Walker's epistles and in an early one, perhaps the first one after the assassination (early 64), Walker is trying to reverse the blame for both JFK and Walker incidents onto RFK.  Walker's saying DPD had Oswald in custody but RFK commanded DPD to let him go.  Thus, if RFK hadn't saved the commie nut Oswald back in April, JFK would still be alive, and Walker is lucky to be alive with the crazed Oswald around.  Also, Walker's cohort in anti-semitic/racist/radical right evangelism, Gerald K Smith, acts as a Walker surrogate for many years, especially in publications like this:

https://archive.org/details/19641231GeraldKSmith2

...and it's pretty clear the both of them are always trying to pin things back on the Kennedys or the political Left or the commies.....almost....as...if....they hope to rekindle the reaction they didn't quite get from the assassination.

So:

 Where's your documentary or testimonial evidence Oswald was pinpointed in April by DPD for Walker's inches-from-death assassination attempt?  Or do you say it is only Hosty?

Edited August 18, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

14 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Then please do me a favor and don't say that you do, when you probably don't.  It encourages the blithe.

Oswald refused to give up his US Passport to the very last day.  He refused to join the Communist Party in Russia.  He refused Russian citizenship.   He was a poser.  As soon as Marina crooked her little finger and said, "Let's go to the USA, honey," Oswald was packed and spent months fighting the system to get them all out.  That's what the paperwork actually shows.   The US State Department has all these records.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Apologies. When I wrote that I believed what I typed.  Then I thought about it as my dog took me for a walk and I realized all I knew was that Oswald SAID he applied for Soviet citizenship.  That's a tricky detail to remember when you're not looking to pinpoint the Soviet citizenship question way back whenever I read the Moscow embassy stuff - I edited my post with the false claim btw.

Jason

Edited August 18, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Ron Bulman]

Crystallization for Oswald himself came in the Oak Cliff theater. 

[Jason Ward]

8 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Crystallization for Oswald himself came in the Oak Cliff theater. 

Maybe.

I think that his too-good-of-a-commie-to-believe routine was still going strong when he asks for John Abt as his attorney.  I mean Oswald's a sophisticated communist and no Dallas lawyer can possibly help, plus how perfect is it to name perhaps the one lawyer in America who is famed for defending communists?

I think when he finds out the president is dead and the TSBD is ground zero for the police, he starts to realize he's in serious jeopardy, but still hasn't come to grips with that ton of bricks patsy role he's in. 

Jason

Edited August 18, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Ron Bulman]

He would have of course realized something was wrong at the TSBD thus his flight to the rooming house.  There to the Theater is a quagmire for some (including me).  

The turning on the lights, search of the theater and apprehension of, at least for Oswald, was for him the realization that he had been abandoned by his handlers.

I think it's becoming crystal clear to him as he's being drug out of the Texas Theatre in Oak Cliff in this shot.

https://www4.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=biIw6HtU&id=7F9B41CAF5E6C7563373F7FC04FF640428265272&thid=OIP.biIw6HtU2EME2X5UVfl3vgEsDG&q=oswald+arrested+texas+theater+picture&simid=608015646775445725&selectedIndex=6&ajaxhist=0

[Jason Ward]

16 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

He would have of course realized something was wrong at the TSBD thus his flight to the rooming house.  There to the Theater is a quagmire for some (including me).  

The turning on the lights, search of the theater and apprehension of, at least for Oswald, was for him the realization that he had been abandoned by his handlers.

I think it's becoming crystal clear to him as he's being drug out of the Texas Theatre in Oak Cliff in this shot.

https://www4.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=biIw6HtU&id=7F9B41CAF5E6C7563373F7FC04FF640428265272&thid=OIP.biIw6HtU2EME2X5UVfl3vgEsDG&q=oswald+arrested+texas+theater+picture&simid=608015646775445725&selectedIndex=6&ajaxhist=0

No doubt the Texas Theater experience was for Oswald somewhat less enjoyable than a typical afternoon matinee.  However, he left his wedding ring and the equivalent of $1300 with Marina.   He knew he might be away for awhile.   I say jail for a period of days was one of his anticipated outcomes.

https://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/

 

Jason

[Michael Clark]

8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

Almost every famous murder case has its share of "mistaken identity" eye-witnesses.

In the case of the FBI Lone-Nut theory, the "mistaken identity" eye-witnesses of Oswald were given high value.

That is the ONLY source that I can see for the long-time CIA-did-it fiction that there were EVER two Oswalds.

Simple cases of "mistaken identity."   I'm willing to go over every case in the WC testimony with you on this score.  

 Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul Trejo, why bother? You just said that your just going to reply: "that's just a case of mistaken identity" or "they were rogue CIA agents".

 

The Furniture Mart is the best incident that there was someone setting Oswald up. And it does not mean the CIA did it. But Paul Trejo will twist, dodge, evade, blow smoke or use some sophistry or Hegelian Dialectic to preserve his funky fiction.

[Michael Clark]

8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

Do you claim to have seen REAL EVIDENCE that Oswald sought citizenship in the USSR?   I have seen zero, zip, none.  Please show me what you have.  I'm interested.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, are you saying that Oswald's diary is not real evidence?

[Michael Clark]

PAUL TREJO wrote:

  Quote

Also, the fact that LHO never surrendered his US passport -- smart move.  

Also, the fact that LHO never applied for Soviet citizenship.  Very smart.  

Also, the fact that LHO refused to join the Communist Party there -- though continually invited.   Also smart.

 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

 

Paul, Read this:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/other/yeltsin/html/Yeltsin_0003a.htm

 

And this:

Warren Commission Exhibit 24. The Diary of LHO:

--------------------------------------------

Oct. 16. Arrive from Helsinki by train; am met by Intourest Repre. and in car to Hotel "Berlin". Reges. as. "studet" 5 day Lux. tourist. Ticket.) Meet my Intorist guied Rhimma Sherikova I explain to her I wish to appli. for Rus. citizenship. She is flabbergassed, but aggrees to help. She checks with her boss, main office Intour; than helps me add. a letter to Sup. Sovit asking for citizenship, mean while boss telephons passport & visa office and notifies them about me. 

---------------------------------------

Oct. 31. I make my dision. Getting passport at 12"O0 ..... I catch a taxi, "American Embassy" I say. 12"30, I arrive American Embassy, I walk in and say to the receptionist 'I would like to see the Consular" she points at a large lager and says "If you are a tourist please register". I take out my American passport and lay it in the desk, I have come to dissolve my American citizenship. I saymatter-of-factly she rises and enters the office of Richard Snyder American Head Consular in Moscow at that time. He invites me to sit down. He finishes a letter he is typing and than ask what he can do for me. I tell him I have decided to take Soviet citezenship and would like to dissolve my U.S. Citizenship.....

------------------------------------------

July - I decided to take my two week vacation and travel to Moscow (without police permission) to the American Embassy to see about geting my U. S. passport back and make arrangements for my wife to enter the U. S. with me.

------------------------------------------

There is no mention at all, in his diary, of joining the Communist Party, not joining the Communist Party, nor of being invited to join the Communist Party, much less being 'Continually invited to join the party", while in The USSR.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

On 3/30/2017 at 4:35 PM, David Josephs said:

Without a doubt the most absurd thing I've seen today is our dimwitted Mr. Trejo not even playing in the same state let alone ballpark as Jim continually open mouth and insert foot.

Paul - you're a disgrace to thinking people everywhere.  Whereas everything you offer is opinion, the rest of us prefer to find supporting evidence before posting.

At least you serve as a great example of how not to behave on a forum dedicated to EDUCATION.  It's posters like you who drive quality people away.

you must enjoy being that gnat on the bull's a$$...  maybe write an essay or two on your own and put them up for review...  see how you do

y'know?  

 

[Michael Clark]

9 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

Do you claim to have seen REAL EVIDENCE that Oswald sought citizenship in the USSR?   I have seen zero, zip, none.  Please show me what you have.  I'm interested.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

From this Soviet document that is part of the Yeltsin cache. Paul Trejo has ignored me every time I put this, and LHO's diary in front  of him.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/other/yeltsin/html/Yeltsin_0003a.htm

excerpt:

Department of Language Services

To: Gormyko et al

1. Agree with the proposal by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the USSR and the Comittee for state security of the Council of Ministers of the USSR that US national, Lee Harvey Oswald, who has applied for US Citizenship, be granted rights of temporary sojourn for one year.....

----------------------

Paul Trejo just ignores whatever is not useful to him.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Then please do me a favor and don't say that you do, when you probably don't.  It encourages the blithe.

Oswald refused to give up his US Passport to the very last day.  He refused to join the Communist Party in Russia.  He refused Russian citizenship.   He was a poser.  As soon as Marina crooked her little finger and said, "Let's go to the USA, honey," Oswald was packed and spent months fighting the system to get them all out.  That's what the paperwork actually shows.   The US State Department has all these records.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

More stinking bunk from Paul Trejo.

"Oswald refused to give up his US Passport to the very last day. "

Paul, the last day of what? And who did he refuse? You make it sound like he was being asked to give up his passport, which is pure myth that you made up and you perpetuate in spite of the evidence that says the exact opposite.

He refused to join the Communist Party in Russia.

Paul, He was never offered or encouraged to join the Community. He was inquiring about it and was discouraged from doing so.

 He refused Russian citizenship

Paul, he was never offered Citizenship. He requested Citizenship and was denied.

 

Paul wrote: "Oswald refused to give up his US Passport to the very last day.  He refused to join the Communist Party in Russia.  He refused Russian citizenship.   He was a poser.  As soon as Marina crooked her little finger and said, "Let's go to the USA, honey," Oswald was packed and spent months fighting the system to get them all out.  

 

That's what the paperwork actually shows.   The US State Department has all these records.

Paul Trejo, The state department records show efforts to leave them USSR. They indicate nothing about Marina controlling Oswald, and  the state department records (letters between LHO and US government offices) do not support your bunk about LHO's Citizenship status, party status.

Paul Trejo, you are forever fabricating bunk, for who knows what reason. You forever refuse to consider documented evidence and favor your fabrications.

[Paul Trejo]

10 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

I'm not buying it that DPD had Oswald as Walker's assassin in April and let him go.   I've stumbled across a few of Walker's epistles and in an early one, perhaps the first one after the assassination (early 64), Walker is trying to reverse the blame for both JFK and Walker incidents onto RFK.  Walker's saying DPD had Oswald in custody but RFK commanded DPD to let him go.  Thus, if RFK hadn't saved the commie nut Oswald back in April, JFK would still be alive, and Walker is lucky to be alive with the crazed Oswald around.  Also, Walker's cohort in anti-semitic/racist/radical right evangelism, Gerald K Smith, acts as a Walker surrogate for many years, especially in publications like this:

https://archive.org/details/19641231GeraldKSmith2

...and it's pretty clear the both of them are always trying to pin things back on the Kennedys or the political Left or the commies.....almost....as...if....they hope to rekindle the reaction they didn't quite get from the assassination.

So:

 Where's your documentary or testimonial evidence Oswald was pinpointed in April by DPD for Walker's inches-from-death assassination attempt?  Or do you say it is only Hosty?

Jason,

In my reading, Lee Harvey Oswald was never arrested for the shooting at General Walker, but Hosty learned about Oswald's participation from Mrs. Voshinin on Easter Sunday, 1963 -- four days after the shooting.  She learned about it from the suspicions of George De Mohrenschildt.

Hosty was connected to General Walker through Robert Allen Surrey.  So, in my surmise, General Walker found about it that same day -- Easter Sunday, 1963.

General Walker's personal opinion was -- well, if Lee Harvey Oswald was a genuine suspect, then why didn't they pick him up?  And failing to pick him up was the same as letting him go.  And failing to let him go was the same as picking him up and letting him go.   So, in Walker's lingering worry about his deadly shooter -- this was the same (in his opinion, as we see in all of these writings) as the Dallas authorities picking him up and letting him go.

In Walker's imagination, I surmise, the FBI told the Dallas police everything they knew -- that would be common sense, too.  Yet in reality, James Hosty did not have Oswald's FBI case file open at that time -- he only had these suspicions.  There was no official paperwork.  That's all I'm willing to opine at the moment.

Also in Walker's personal papers -- we see the continuing fantasy that RFK was the one who hired Lee Harvey Oswald to shoot Walker on April 10, 1963.  This paranoid fantasy was most likely based on the historical fact that RFK had General Walker stripped naked in an insane asylum to which RFK had remanded him on October 1, 1962 -- only seven months prior to the Walker shooting.  Plenty of reason to be paranoid about it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Paul Trejo]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

He would have of course realized something was wrong at the TSBD thus his flight to the rooming house.  There to the Theater is a quagmire for some (including me).  

The turning on the lights, search of the theater and apprehension of, at least for Oswald, was for him the realization that he had been abandoned by his handlers. 

Ron,

In my reading, there is more evidence than the Warren Commission allowed us to see.  To support the LN theory, the WC had to invent that Oswald took the bus and a taxi to his rooming house -- but the eye-witness testimony to those claims falls apart in the reading.

The opposite WC testimony by Dallas Deputy Roger Craig, that he saw Oswald jump into a Green Rambler a few minutes after the shots, was simply called nonsense by the WC attorneys -- it did not match their prejudice of a Lone Nut.

Once we begin to see other people involved in "handling" Oswald physically after the JFK murder, then we begin to see more clearly.  Oswald knew something was wrong once he heard that JFK was actually shot, perhaps, so he fled.

According to Jeff Caufiield (2015) and Gareth Wean (1971) it was Texas Senator John Tower and Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker who admitted to Audie Murphy and Gareth Wean that General Walker had set up the plot -- but it was supposed to be a False Flag plot -- that is, just a warning shot to scare JFK and convince the USA that the Communist Menace in the USA was REAL.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Ty Carpenter]

33 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

According to Jeff Caufiield (2015) and Gareth Wean (1971) it was Texas Senator John Tower and Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker who admitted to Audie Murphy and Gareth Wean that General Walker had set up the plot -- but it was supposed to be a False Flag plot -- that is, just a warning shot to scare JFK and convince the USA that the Communist Menace in the USA was REAL.

 

 

I believe the Audie Murphy story has some real merit. But when was anything ever mentioned about Walker leading the op? And, who hi-jacked the op and turned it into a live situation?