WHEN does Oswald crystallize into the patsy?

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

Paul Trejo, why bother? You just said that your just going to reply: "that's just a case of mistaken identity" or "they were rogue CIA agents".

 

The Furniture Mart is the best incident that there was someone setting Oswald up. And it does not mean the CIA did it. But Paul Trejo will twist, dodge, evade, blow smoke or use some sophistry or Hegelian Dialectic to preserve his funky fiction.

Hi Michael,

In my view Oswald was impersonated a number of times.  I particularly highlight the Sportsdome gun range sightings and the car dealers.   So I disagree with Paul about that.  But you know what?  It's like whether Ruth Paine was CIA or just a saintly Quaker, these are fringe operational details that don't matter a whole lot to deciding who 1. the top line guys were pushing this along, and 2. who the bottom line guys were who pulled off an actual homicide.   I mean fake Oswalds or mistaken identity Oswalds changes nothing; Paine CIA or Paine a good Samaritarian changes nothing.  Neither of these elements are critical; they are at best flourishes or administrative niceties.  In my view!

Jason

[Paul Trejo]

4 minutes ago, Ty Carpenter said:

I believe the Audie Murphy story has some real merit. But when was anything ever mentioned about Walker leading the op? And, who hi-jacked the op and turned it into a live situation?

Ty

The first I read about Gareth Wean's account (before Caufield) Walker was always the lead. 

Nobody hi-jacked the operation -- it was secretly planned by Walker from the start to include a real assassination, but most people in the operation did not know that -- they were lied to.  That's how Jeff Caufield states it, too.   This is how they got high-ranking people to cooperate in the first place.  So -- it was well known around Dallas.

By the way -- General Walker was also the organizer of the violent protests against Adlai Stevenson only 30 days before the JFK assassination.   That was very well known in Dallas, too -- but it got almost no press.  General Walker was respected and feared in Dallas.  Almost as much as HL Hunt.   Few people know that. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

From this Soviet document that is part of the Yeltsin cache. Paul Trejo has ignored me every time I put this, and LHO's diary in front  of him.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/other/yeltsin/html/Yeltsin_0003a.htm

 

 

 

Thanks for the valuable link, Michael.

 

Jason

[Michael Clark]

1 hour ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Michael,

In my view Oswald was impersonated a number of times.  I particularly highlight the Sportsdome gun range sightings and the car dealers.   So I disagree with Paul about that.  But you know what?  It's like whether Ruth Paine was CIA or just a saintly Quaker, these are fringe operational details that don't matter a whole lot to deciding who 1. the top line guys were pushing this along, and 2. who the bottom line guys were who pulled off an actual homicide.   I mean fake Oswalds or mistaken identity Oswalds changes nothing; Paine CIA or Paine a good Samaritarian changes nothing.  Neither of these elements are critical; they are at best flourishes or administrative niceties.  In my view!

Jason

Jason, I agree. The point is that:

Paul Trejo makes up stuff and repeats it, ad infinitum,and ignores all evidence to the contrary.

Jason, Since Paul appears to be using you to further perpetuate his bunk, and he is ignoring me, I'll ask you to challenge his affirmative statement that "LHO was repeatedly asked to join the Communist Party, in Russia, but he refused" (semi quoting here).

He asked you to show evidence to the contrary. He is making an affirmative statement. He should have that evidence. He does not have it, because he is making it up.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

4 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Thanks for the valuable link, Michael.

 

Jason

No problem. It is indeed very enlightening.

[Ty Carpenter]

5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Ty

The first I read about Gareth Wean's account (before Caufield) Walker was always the lead. 

Nobody hi-jacked the operation -- it was secretly planned by Walker from the start to include a real assassination, but most people in the operation did not know that -- they were lied to.  That's how Jeff Caufield states it, too.   This is how they got high-ranking people to cooperate in the first place.  So -- it was well known around Dallas.

By the way -- General Walker was also the organizer of the violent protests against Adlai Stevenson only 30 days before the JFK assassination.   That was very well known in Dallas, too -- but it got almost no press.  General Walker was respected and feared in Dallas.  Almost as much as HL Hunt.   Few people know that. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Thanks Paul. If that is the case, how did Walker and Ruby tie together? Meaning, how did Walker procure Ruby's services.

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

From this Soviet document that is part of the Yeltsin cache. Paul Trejo has ignored me every time I put this, and LHO's diary in front  of him.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/other/yeltsin/html/Yeltsin_0003a.htm

excerpt:

Department of Language Services

To: Gormyko et al

1. Agree with the proposal by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the USSR and the Comittee for state security of the Council of Ministers of the USSR that US national, Lee Harvey Oswald, who has applied for US Citizenship, be granted rights of temporary sojourn for one year.....

----------------------

Paul Trejo just ignores whatever is not useful to him.

Michael,

Read it more CAREFULLY.  It says:

"...that Lee Harvey Oswald...be granted the right of TEMPORARY sojourn in the Soviet Union for ONE YEAR, and that the QUESTION of his permanent residency in the USSR and his receiving Soviet citizenship be resolved upon the EXPIRATION of that period."

OK, now we know two facts about Lee Harvey Oswald in the USSR:

1.  He never gave up his US Passport, even when requested by the USSR.

2.  After ONE YEAR was over, Lee Harvey Oswald did not pursue any procedure to apply for Russian citizenship.  He just kept living there on his temporary visa.  (By the way -- one could not be a member of the Russian Communist Party without that citizenship.)  

In other words, Lee Harvey Oswald played a trick on the USSR.

Read CAREFULLY.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

4 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

No problem. It is indeed very enlightening.

And here is the link to the index for those papers

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/contents/other/contents_yeltsin.htm

[Michael Clark]

4 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Read it more CAREFULLY.  It says:

"...that Lee Harvey Oswald...be granted the right of TEMPORARY sojourn in the Soviet Union for ONE YEAR, and that the QUESTION of his permanent residency in the USSR and his receiving Soviet citizenship be resolved upon the EXPIRATION of that period."

OK, now we know two facts about Lee Harvey Oswald in the USSR:

1.  He never gave up his US Passport, even when requested by the USSR.

2.  After ONE YEAR was over, Lee Harvey Oswald did not pursue any procedure to apply for Russian citizenship.  He just kept living there on his temporary visa.  (By the way -- one could not be a member of the Russian Communist Party without that citizenship.)  

In other words, Lee Harvey Oswald played a trick on the USSR.

Read CAREFULLY.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I have a TYPO in there, but Paul Trejo could have read the Doc. Instead he decided do play with that.

It should read ".... has applied for Soviet Citzenship."

Edited August 18, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

4 minutes ago, Ty Carpenter said:

Thanks Paul. If that is the case, how did Walker and Ruby tie together? Meaning, how did Walker procure Ruby's services.

Ty,

I see no direct link between General Walker and Jack Ruby.  The indirect link is with dirty cops in the DPD.   Jack Ruby, the pimp, would do almost anything that these dirty DPD cops asked of him.  After they failed to kill Lee Harvey Oswald in the streets, as planned (since they already had Oswald's rifle in hand) they had a major problem.

So, it was the dirty DPD cops (not Walker) who turned to Jack Ruby for help.  They (most likely) convinced Jack Ruby that he would be a national hero if he killed JFK's killer, who was now also a cop-killer.   They convinced Jack Ruby.  (This latter account I get from Seth Kantor's book, Who Was Jack Ruby? (1978)).

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

6 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Jason, I agree. The point is that:

Paul Trejo makes up stuff and repeats it, ad ininitum,and ignores all evidence to the contrary.

Jason, Since Paul appears to be using you to further perpetuate his bunk, and he is ignoring me, I'll ask you to challenge his affirmative statement that "LHO was repeatedly asked to join the Communist Party, in Russia, but he refused" (semi quoting here).

He asked you to show evidence to the contrary. He is making an affirmative statement. He should have that evidence. He does not have it, because he is making it up.

Michael, many thanks for the links and so forth.  I already got carried away in largely irrelevant pissing contests this week with Sandy L and Jim D, which I regret.  I'm not real practiced with forum life and let emotions get the best of me once already.  So I'm trying to not pour fuel on the fire anymore.   I of course don't mind challenging Paul about any point, but it's hard enough getting a coherent big picture that I'm not the kind to sweat the details.   I just don't care if LHO was or was not asked to join the CP.   I understand that Paul's theory is that LHO is clever here and maybe playing hard to get; but again it doesn't seem important.  It's like Payne's typewriter....

 

thanks again

 

Jason

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

The Furniture Mart is the best incident that there was someone setting Oswald up. And it does not mean the CIA did it. But Paul Trejo will twist, dodge, evade, blow smoke or use some sophistry or Hegelian Dialectic to preserve his funky fiction.

Michael,

The Furniture Mart incident is OBVIOUSLY a case of "mistaken identity".   Read the WC testimony more CAREFULLY.   You keep jumping to your prejudiced conclusions.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

10 minutes ago, Ty Carpenter said:

Thanks Paul. If that is the case, how did Walker and Ruby tie together? Meaning, how did Walker procure Ruby's services.

 

5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Ty,

I see no direct link between General Walker and Jack Ruby.  The indirect link is with dirty cops in the DPD.   Jack Ruby, the pimp, would do almost anything that these dirty DPD cops asked of him.  After they failed to kill Lee Harvey Oswald in the streets, as planned (since they already had Oswald's rifle in hand) they had a major problem.

So, it was the dirty DPD cops (not Walker) who turned to Jack Ruby for help.  They (most likely) convinced Jack Ruby that he would be a national hero if he killed JFK's killer, who was now also a cop-killer.   They convinced Jack Ruby.  (This latter account I get from Seth Kantor's book, Who Was Jack Ruby? (1978)).

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Since we've kind of drifted into the whole Walker-centric CT now, what I'd like to know is your what you asked, Ty, but also: through what conduit Walker reaches into New Orleans.  Banister? ShawBertrand?  Where's the evidence they talked, met, knew each other, schemed, etc?    I mean if Walker is the prime mover in this, he didn't find Oswald, the New Orleans cell recruited Oswald, correct?  So the Walker-New Orleans connection, if it in fact existed, must be fleshed out.  IMO.

 

Jason

[Paul Trejo]

8 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Michael, many thanks for the links and so forth.  I already got carried away in largely irrelevant pissing contests this week with Sandy L and Jim D, which I regret.  I'm not real practiced with forum life and let emotions get the best of me once already.  So I'm trying to not pour fuel on the fire anymore.   I of course don't mind challenging Paul about any point, but it's hard enough getting a coherent big picture that I'm not the kind to sweat the details.   I just don't care if LHO was or was not asked to join the CP.   I understand that Paul's theory is that LHO is clever here and maybe playing hard to get; but again it doesn't seem important.  It's like Payne's typewriter....

thanks again

Jason

Jason,

Just to be clear, I don't think Oswald's trip to Russia had ANYTHING to do with the JFK assassination -- except that it made General Walker hate Oswald's guts the second that Oswald stepped off the airplane back into Dallas, Texas.

General Walker absolutely hated Communists -- and anything associated with Russia.  He was a one-sided fanatic on the issue.  That Oswald had a Russian wife also irked Walker.  Also, Walker considered Dallas to be his personal backyard.

Otherwise -- there's no connection whatsoever.   I say this because I'm convinced that there is no CIA plot whatsoever involved with the JFK assassination.   (I'm not as certain about the Russian trip.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Read it more CAREFULLY.  It says:

"...that Lee Harvey Oswald...be granted the right of TEMPORARY sojourn in the Soviet Union for ONE YEAR, and that the QUESTION of his permanent residency in the USSR and his receiving Soviet citizenship be resolved upon the EXPIRATION of that period."

OK, now we know two facts about Lee Harvey Oswald in the USSR:

1.  He never gave up his US Passport, even when requested by the USSR.

2.  After ONE YEAR was over, Lee Harvey Oswald did not pursue any procedure to apply for Russian citizenship.  He just kept living there on his temporary visa.  (By the way -- one could not be a member of the Russian Communist Party without that citizenship.)  

In other words, Lee Harvey Oswald played a trick on the USSR.

Read CAREFULLY.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Complete Bunk Paul, your selective quotes do not even support your contention that LHO did not give up his passport. His Diary and US consulate documents state that he did surrender the passport, and that he had to return to get them before leaving.

Paul, Reading "CAREFULLY" does not mean using Hegelian Dailecticsmto turn facts into your personal bunk, regardless of what you think, try, or expect other members to swallow.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Michael Clark