If Oswald Was "Prayer Man" ...

[Thomas Graves]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tommy,

I just don't think the plotters cared much what Oswald was doing. I believe they had a plan for releasing information that would get Oswald caught.

On the other hand, I just have to believe that the plotters wanted him dead. He must have been given instructions to follow after the assassination. The result of which would be his death. But something went wrong.

 

 

Sandy,

 

Well, not sure if you mean that the bad guys and gals gave Oswald instructions [ EDIT: immediately ] after the assassination on what to do next, or if you mean they gave him instructions before the assassination on what to do after it, but [ EDIT: regardless, ] isn't it equally possible (as Doyle and Gilbride seem to believe) that they told him (either before or after the assassination) to be in the 2nd floor lunch room [ EDIT: around 12:30 ], you know, so Baker and Truly could encounter him there around 12:33?

 

--  TG

 

EDIT ALERT: " ... or somehow tricked him ..."

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

"...isn't it equally possible...that they told him...to be in the 2nd floor lunch room...so Baker and Truly could encounter him there around 12:33?"

Yes. 

And it's possible he was told nothing of the sort.

It's also possible that the point of this thread is, it has no point, other than putting your name at the top of the thread list with each bump, and with each query that begins to border on redundancy.

And it's likewise possible that I'm getting tired of playing this silly game which uncovers NO usable information...but keeps Thomas Graves at the top of the thread list.

Many things are POSSIBLE. Discerning which are PROBABLE is the task of greatest difficulty, in many cases.

But not ALL cases.

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Mark Knight said:

"...isn't it equally possible...that they told him...to be in the 2nd floor lunch room...so Baker and Truly could encounter him there around 12:33?"

Yes. 

And it's possible he was told nothing of the sort.

It's also possible that the point of this thread is, it has no point, other than putting your name at the top of the thread list with each bump, and with each query that begins to border on redundancy.

And it's likewise possible that I'm getting tired of playing this silly game which uncovers NO usable information...but keeps Thomas Graves at the top of the thread list.

Many things are POSSIBLE. Discerning which are PROBABLE is the task of greatest difficulty, in many cases.

But not ALL cases.

 

 

Mark,

 

" ... or somehow tricked him ... "

 

--  TG

 

EDIT ALERT: 

A question for you, Mark.

What evidence do you have that (I'm gonna give you a break, here) strongly suggests that "Prayer Man" was Oswald?

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

2 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

And it's likewise possible that I'm getting tired of playing this silly game which uncovers NO usable information...but keeps Thomas Graves at the top of the thread list.

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Kathy Beckett said:

Me, too.

 

Kathy,

 

Do you believe "Prayer Man" was Oswald?

 

If so, why?


Are you convinced by the photographic evidence?  ( EDIT:  Are you aware that between the end of Weigman and the beginning of Darnell, "Prayer Man" and Buell Wesley Frazier pivoted towards each other right about the same time that Gloria "Big Girl" Calvery ran up to the TSBD steps, which photographic evidence strongly suggests that "Prayer Man" was none other than the "Sarah" whom he said in a 2013 interview that he and she had turned towards and spoken to each other right after a "crying girl came by the steps" and told the people there that JFK had been shot?)

 

Andrej's modeling?

 

Or do you, like most of the other members here, in my humble opinion, just want him to be there and hope / believe that the evidence supports that conclusion?

 

Regardless (and in keeping with the subject of this thread), do you think it's plausible that the bad guys would let him kinda wander around outside the building like that during the shooting?

 

Thank you,

--  TG

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

Thomas:

Please find below the transcript of the Sixth Floor Museum interview with Mr. Frazier. Where do you find the unequivocal timing information linking the scene which we see in Darnell with Mrs. Stanton? The timing is loose. The part of Darnell film in which the lady in dark headscarf is seen along with people at the western wall takes only 49 frames which corresponds to only 2.7 seconds of real time (assuming 18 frames/second). I have reconstructed Prayer Man's head orientation and where he appears to look at: he looks towards the Records building or into the Elm street between Daltex and Records. He did not turn to Mr. Frazier because we would see him from his profile. Mr. Frazier does not move at all, he is not turning towards Prayer Man. When two people talk, they look at each other: Prayer Man and Mr. Frazier do not. So, where do you find such certainty about Prayer Man being Mrs. Stanton from this information? And if you realise how shaky the grounds for your only "proof" of Mrs. Stanton being Prayer Man are, why are you continuously asking the same question again and again? The short duration of the scene (2.7 seconds) does not exclude the possibility that Mr. Frazier turned to Mrs. Stanton (he did not look straight as in Darnell to speak to Mrs. Stanton) just a second or two before Darnell started to film the doorway, or just one or two seconds after this 2.7 second interval of Darnell. We just do not know enough about this micro-timing to take it as a proof that Darnell depicted the moment when Mr. Frazier spoke to Mrs. Stanton.

While I am pursuing the hypothesis that Prayer Man could be Lee Harvey Oswald, I am not bashing this hypothesis into people's head in an obtuse way. Instead, I work when the time allows me to develop this hypothesis. At this stage, it is necessary to reconstruct Altgens6 because the white blob I see and consider to be Mrs. Stanton's head has been disputed by Bart. This happened some two months ago. I did not flinch, I spend time and effort when my duties to my employer and my family allow it to show it in such a way that even Bart (yes, Bart was not convinced even if the presence of Mrs. Stanton where I am showing her would strongly play into Prayer Man cards). May I ask you to show something: some consistent work, a drawing, calculation, piece of text, anything which we can evaluate. Asking questions is not enough, answering the questions is what matters.

Here is the transcript of the interview with Mr. Frazier:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?
Mr. Frazier: I did. This was all... I do not know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady come by, a woman came by, and she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around. And it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, there was so much chaos down there. I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up  beside the building. And I was talking to someone, it  was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book  building was Lee Oswald.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

  .....

 

Andrej,

 

In interviews of witnesses to traumatic / chaotic events taken fifty years after the fact, you can't expect unequivocal timing from anybody on anything.

Regardless, you seem oblivious to the fact that "Prayer Man" and Frazier turned towards each other (and remained that way) at some point during the unfilmed interval between the end of the Weigman clip and the beginning of Couch-Darnell's coverage of the steps and entryway, which change can be be discerned, after the fact, when you look at "Prayer Man" in Weigman, and then look at "Prayer Man" and Frazier in Couch-Darnell.

Tangential Question:  How could "Prayer Man," be he male or female, pivot like that towards Frazier if he or she were standing with one foot on the top step, and the other foot on the landing?

 

--  TG

 

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

Thomas:

your post reveals that you are not able to realise how inappropriate your style of posting is. I understand that you conceded that Darnell's film proved that Prayer Man was Stanton because it depicted the exact moment of their conversation, and then you raise further questions. May I also ask a question? Why do you not try to answer your own questions with some research and evidence? I am not going to answer any of your questions which you yourself do not even try to answer. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Thomas Graves]

11 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thomas:

your post reveals that you are not able to realise how inappropriate your style of posting is. I understand that you conceded that Darnell's film proved that Prayer Man was Stanton because it depicted the exact moment of their conversation, and then you raise further questions. May I also ask a question? Why do you not try to answer your own questions with some research and evidence? I am not going to answer any of your questions which you yourself do not even try to answer. 

 

 

Andrej,

 

Sorry, but I don't completely understand your post.

I conceded something?  

In Couch-Darnell, we can see "Prayer Man" after he or she has turned (from his or her orientation in Weigman) towards Frazier to talk with him, and the way Frazier is standing in Couch-Darnell, we can be reasonably sure that he wasn't facing in that direction during the motorcade, but turned towards "Prayer Man" during the same period of time as "Prayer Man" was turning towards him.

It makes sense that Frazier is facing the way he is in Couch-Darnell in order to "keep one ear" on what Gloria Calvery is still saying to somebody down below (Lovelady?), and "the other ear on" whatever "Prayer Man" might be saying to him, or that Frazier might even be answering a question from "Prayer Man" while watching the crying-and-talking Calvery. 

 

--  TG

 

PS  Have you ever compared "Prayer Man's" orientation in Weigman with his or her orientation in Couch-Darnell?

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

Sorry, Thomas, this ends my discussion with you on yet another thread.

[Thomas Graves]

5 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sorry, Thomas, this ends my discussion with you on yet another thread.

 

Andrej,

 

What's bothering you?

Have I asked you some questions that you can't answer?

Do you think I'm "playing dirty"?

If so, how so?

 

--  TG

 

Do you deny that "Prayer Man's" orientation changes quite a bit between Weigman and Couch-Darnell?

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[John Butler]

Bravo!

[Sandy Larsen]

On 4/9/2018 at 12:39 PM, Thomas Graves said:

 

Sandy,

 

Well, not sure if you mean that the bad guys and gals gave Oswald instructions [ EDIT: immediately ] after the assassination on what to do next, or if you mean they gave him instructions before the assassination on what to do after it, but [ EDIT: regardless, ] isn't it equally possible (as Doyle and Gilbride seem to believe) that they told him (either before or after the assassination) to be in the 2nd floor lunch room [ EDIT: around 12:30 ], you know, so Baker and Truly could encounter him there around 12:33?

 

--  TG

 

EDIT ALERT: " ... or somehow tricked him ..."

 

 

Tommy,

Sure, I think it's entirely possible that Oswald was told to be in a certain place at a certain time. But that place could not have been the Second Floor lunchroom. First, because I don't think the timing was so predictable that Oswald could have been on the second floor at the right time. And second (and more compelling IMO), because of the large amount of evidence indicating that the government fabricated the second floor encounter as part of the government coverup.

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

8 hours ago, Kathy Beckett said:

Thomas,

It looks like Andrej was coming back into this, offering his research for you to digest and then for you to consider and respond to. It appears as if you didn't even look. I don't know any other way to put this, but to me, it looks like you sort of flipped both  he and his research  off.

This is probably why he is frustrated. It would have stopped me too.. 

(My bad for responding to this. Every time someone responds, it goes back to the top of the page.)

 

Kathy,

 

Have you looked at any of the ("contrast-adjusted") frames showing "Prayer Man" clearly in Weigman, and compared them with frames showing "Prayer Man" in Couch-Darnell?

If so, wouldn't you agree that "Prayer Man" must have turned towards Frazier at some point between the end of the Weigman clip's coverage of the TSBD steps/entryway and the beginning of the Couch-Darnell clip's coverage of same?

It seems to me that Andrej doesn't want to admit that "Prayer Man" has turned in Frazier's direction during that approximately 30-second-long photographic interval between Weigman and Couch-Darnell, an interval during which Gloria Calvery, who witnessed President Kennedy's head's being blown off down on Elm Street, arrived at the TSBD steps and started telling someone on a lower step what she had just seen, and probably told that person what she had just seen in a loud enough voice for "Prayer Man" and Frazier to hear what she was saying.

 

--  TG

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Kathy,

 

Have you looked at any of the ("contrast-adjusted") frames showing "Prayer Man" clearly in Weigman, and compared them with frames showing "Prayer Man" in Couch-Darnell?

If so, wouldn't you agree that "Prayer Man" must have turned towards Frazier at some point between the end of the Weigman clip's coverage of the TSBD steps/entryway and the beginning of the Couch-Darnell clip's coverage of same?

It seems to me that Andrej doesn't want to admit that "Prayer Man" has turned in Frazier's direction during that approximately 30-second-long photographic interval between Weigman and Couch-Darnell, an interval during which Gloria Calvery, who witnessed President Kennedy's head's being blown off down on Elm Street, arrived at the TSBD steps and started telling someone on a lower step what she had just seen, and probably told that person what she had just seen in a loud enough voice for "Prayer Man" and Frazier to hear what she was saying.

 

--  TG

 

Once again you are ASSUMING facts not in evidence. You are constantly begging for speculation on this thread. How about sticking to the FACTS and leaving the speculation-is-now-accepted-as-fact posts to Mr Trejo.

Or how about refraining from asking for speculation from other members, simply because you believe you can out-speculate everyone else? 

I'm through responding to the inane line of questioning you continue to put forth in this post. If you seek facts, ask for facts. If you want clairvoyance, I suggest you contact a medium and see what his/her crystal ball reveals.

I don't know a polite way to tell you that if you have nothing to add, it would behoove you to stop adding that nothing on top of your existing level of nothing.