Richard Case Nagell

[James DiEugenio]

Larry:

I do not understand your ideas about Nagell being recruited by a CIA agent masquerading as a KGB agent.  Consider the following from my review:

In October of 1962, a Soviet contact of his told him that he had heard that a Cuban group named Alpha 66 had been talking about a plot to kill JFK. The reason being that they had gotten wind of Kennedy's no invasion of Cuba pledge made to close the crisis. The contact asked him to investigate the rumor to see if it was true. If it was to try and ascertain those involved, the method to be used etc. (p. 154) Nagell had barely begun his inquiry when he was called to the Soviet Embassy. Something that had never happened to him before. He was told there that it was not just a rumor. He was briefed further, furnished a number of pictures, and told to return to the USA and continue his investigation in earnest. (ibid) Alpha 66, of course, was a violent Cuban group backed by the CIA.

Nagell went to the Soviet Embassy.  He was briefed there on his assignment.  Why would someone risk that if he was really a double agent?

 

[Paz Marverde]

OK, let me answer for you, then: Nagell's lawyer was Bernard Fensterwald

[Larry Hancock]

Paz, Fensterwald came into the picture much later, he was not Nagell's trial lawer for his initial defense against the incident in the bank. Actually Nagell had several lawyers over the years given that he placed numerous appeals for his initial charge and then later entered into legal action involving custody of his children and a quest for disability payments from his military service. As I said, this is a very complex story and you have to take what happened with him chronologically to understand his varous actions - which were often very situational.

 

[Larry Hancock]

Jim, once again this is extremely complex, and you have to do the chronology in detail. According to Nagell he was involved both with individuals he knew to be Soviets and with CIA officers known to him as well as individuals he later suspected as being double agents.  Over a period of months he engaged with a number of individuals and his activities included icluding going to the US Embassy and positioning himself as a potential defector.  As best I recall in the end he felt he had worked with actual CIA officers, with individuals who were double agents and with Soviets and he really wasn't sure who to trust, feeling that he had been manipulated by all parties.  As indeed he would be years later during his quest to get his kids back and his travels into Europe including East Germany.

I'm certainly not going to pretend I understand all his interactions in Mexico City when he didn't himself.  However his trip to the American Embassy in which he discussed a defection and offering conventional information of value to a foreign power is documented - and the documentation shows no sign of any American counter intelligence response.  Which is strange give that Nagell had been an Army CI officer, had provably been in contact with CIA officers in California and had the names of other officers at headquarters. Any such American Embassy contact should have set up some alarm bells and a follow up when he arrived back in the U.S.  Why it did not is as interesting as many of his other activities but again I'm short of any explanation and can only speculate. 

[Michael Clark]

9 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Dick does name Negell's defense lawyer in his book and interviewed him at some length - I don't recall his name but you will find those details in Dick's book.  Ironically the lawyer told Dick he would have mounted a much stronger defense if there had actually been proof that Nagell had been in Mexico - which there certainly is, in plenty.  Because he had nothing to confirm that at the time he felt compelled to present nothing more than an insanity defense for Nagell.

Another ironic point is that the trial judge was Homer Thorneberry, a long time friend of LBJ who LBJ later unsuccessfully tried to appoint to the Supreme Court

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKthornberry.htm

Thornberry was elected to Congress and served from January 3, 1949 until his resignation fourteen years later. According to Dick Russell (The Man Who Knew Too Much), Lyndon B. Johnson described Thornberry as "my congressman". Thornberry is quoted in the book as saying: "It's just unbelievable how many things he (Johnson) and Mrs. Johnson did to help us when we went to Washington".

When John F. Kennedy offered Lyndon B. Johnson the post of Vice President, one of the first people he contacted was Homer Thornberry. He replied: "I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Tell Jack (Kennedy) anything you want, but don't take it." However, soon afterwards he phoned Johnson back to say he changed his mind and that he should accept the post.

On 5th June, 1963, Thornberry attended a meeting with John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, John Connally, Fred Korth and Clifton C. Carter at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, to discuss the president's forthcoming trip to Dallas. Thornberry was in the presidential motorcade with Johnson when Kennedy was assassinated.

A few days after the assassination Johnson phoned Homer Thornberry and invited him to "come down and have a drink with me". The two men had two meetings in December, 1963. In a taped White House conversation on 17th December, 1963, Lyndon Johnson admitted that he went to parties held at the house of Bobby Baker with Homer Thornberry and Walter Jenkins. On 20th December, Thornberry resigned his congressional seat. The following day Johnson appointed Thornberry as U.S. District Court Judge for the Western District of Texas. This enabled him to replace R. E. Thompson as the judge in the case of Richard Case Nagell.

[Paz Marverde]

12 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Paz, Fensterwald came into the picture much later

Did I mention a year, in my question, Larry? Nope. In any case, it was in 1974

[Larry Hancock]

Since this had moved on to throwing out names and I did throw out Thornberry myself I should point out that he was in Dallas at the time of the assassination, rode back on AF1 with Johnson and ended up with several other Johnson companions at the VPs residence that night...and stayed for a period of time, being consulted by Johnson.  All that is in my books and is sort of ancient history to me, at one time I found it fascinating and even went to great lengths to dig up news articles proving all of it.  Of course that was before the internet...maybe I should just have waited, would be much quicker now I suppose...grin.

 

 

[Larry Hancock]

OK, it looks like this thread is going off on its own...if anybody has any other Nagell questions just drop me an email.  What I know about him is all in SWHT 2010 and in the research CD in any event.

[Mark Knight]

Larry, I bought SWHT in 2010, and found it fascinating. The information you uncovered in your research changed a lot of my previous opinions and conclusions.

I continue to find your comments enlightening, and hope that you continue to contribute here for years to come.

[Michael Clark]

5 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

OK, it looks like this thread is going off on its own...if anybody has any other Nagell questions just drop me an email.  What I know about him is all in SWHT 2010 and in the research CD in any event.

Larry, I apologize if my post stepped too far away from Nagell. I thought it added a few important details on Thornberry, in relation to Nagell. I have been very pleased to see you posting recently. I hope you will continue to do-so.

[Paz Marverde]

27 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

OK, it looks like this thread is going off on its own...

I'm the one who opened it, and it's not going off. It was and it is on Nagell and whatever related to him

[David Andrews]

Nagell initially thought he was being tasked to look into Oswald by someone with CIA connections but later determined that person to be a double actually working for the Russians and believed that he had been compromised and that for a span of time at least could have been charged as working for a foreign power.

Given the further circumstances of the case, which Larry ably and briefly outlines in his post. you have to wonder how much of Nagell's worries about being "compromised" (and open to blackmail by the KGB, forcing him to consider killing Oswald for them) would really stand up in the eyes of US intelligence as something that would be held against Nagell.  Or were "we" blackmailing him too, on this account?

One of the problems of the Russell book is that we never understand who Lee Harvey Oswald was and who was really running him, and for what purposes.  Russell, being closest to the Nagell case, could do a great service by writing a article defining Oswald as completely as possible from Nagell's understanding (as much as Nagell revealed this).

P. S. - The court-appointed attorneys who finally represented Nagell in the original bank robbery trial and for later appeals were Joseph A. Calamia and Gus Rallis.  Nagell had previously dismissed other court-appointed attorneys.

Edited April 11, 2018 by David Andrews

[Larry Hancock]

Paz, what I meant is that I've offered the sources that I can as well as my basic assessment of his story - like many things I consider such a subject way beyond what I can accurately offer from memory - so its running beyond what I would be able to offer without bringing myself back up to speed (even after researching it for years).  I have a problem going into such subjects without all the context being in play.  If anyone has a direct question just tag or email me and I'll respond but I just don't try to deal with such complex subjects with memories "off the top of my head" longer.  To easy to mis-remember or leave holes..

[Larry Hancock]

No problems Michael, and I have to say I was fascinated by coincidences such as the Nagell/Thorneberry/Johnson intersection - Thorneberry's handling of the case is fascinating in itself, he essentially gave Nagell a get out of jail card anytime Nagell wanted to accept the insanity claim and quietly recant.  Nagell's time in jail and prison is also fascinating.

My only problem is that I know longer recall all that well enough to bring it all back without some digging and I don't want to offer bad information here.  Personally I think Nagell had a good deal to offer about the games that were in play around Oswald and about Oswald's contacts with Cuban exiles impersonating Castro agents. He also gives us an insight into a plot for DC which aborted when Nagell himself was made by the actors in New Orleans.  Oswald's own letters and other activities confirm that.

Unfortunately I don't think Nagell has anything directly to tell us about Dallas, other than the fact that JFK was at risk from Cuban exiles, beginning with the Vaughn Marlowe thing in LA early in the year and increasingly as of late summer.  I might also note that I followed up with Marlowe as Russell had and found him convincing and his story consistent.

[Rob Couteau]

7 hours ago, David Andrews said:

One of the problems of the Russell book is that we never understand who Lee Harvey Oswald was and who was really running him, and for what purposes.  Russell, being closest to the Nagell case, could do a great service by writing a article defining Oswald as completely as possible from Nagell's understanding (as much as Nagell revealed this).

One of the frustrating things about the Russell book is the ambiguous manner in which Oswald's role is portrayed. At times he seems to imply that Nagell viewed Oswald as an witting participant who may have actively been involved in killing JFK; at other times as an unwitting patsy. If Nagell had followed orders to kill him, would the plot have been foiled because the patsy was done away with or because a more active participant was done away with? In this account, it isn't clear. So I think David's suggestion is a great one, particularly since Russel's views may have evolved or clarified after all this time. And if Nagall was saying that Oswald was a shooter, I for one would then have to question what role Nagall was actually playing, or whether he was simply misinformed, since it should be clear by now that Oswald was obviously not playing that particular role.

Paz, I'm glad you opened this thread. I read the 800-page plus first edition of the book, and as Jim D says, it is indeed unnecessarily labyrinthine. But it also contains a lot of interesting clues. Part of the frustration in reading it is that Nagall was also The Man who Didn't Talk Too Much. As Larry said, the fate of his children was used as a threat to silence him. Also your question about lawyers is a good one; the reasons he kept switching them is another story that unfolds throughout the book.

Maybe Jim D can suggest to Russell that he prepare such a summary for his web site.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Rob Couteau