Why were two rifles brought out of the TSBD on 11/22/63?

[David Von Pein]

40 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

I think if the rifle [in the photograph seen in DVP's post below] was evidence found, they would not hold it by the stock because it would obscure fingerprints.

Exactly.

(Isn't this blatantly obvious to everyone here?)

Edited April 14, 2019 by David Von Pein

[Mark Knight]

The Remington Model 8 was available chambered in .25 Remington, .30 Remington, .32 Remington, .35 Remington, and .300 Savage.

And the first reports on DPD radio were that the assassin used a 30 caliber rifle.

What a coincidence.

[Evan Marshall]

The "search" was a sorry joke. At Detroit Homicide I responded to a quadruple homicide at a dope dealers mansion and we searched for 16 hrs until we were satisfied we had done our best.

[Jim Hargrove]

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Exactly.

(Isn't this blatantly obvious to everyone here?)

Mr. Von Pein’s confidence that the Dallas Police followed proper procedures in investigating this case is indicative of his sheer mastery of this subject.  The brilliant work of the Dallas Police covering the JFK assassination included these highlights:

* The DPD was apparently unable to distinguish between steel- and copper-clad bullets in the Walker shooting, though the FBI said that was quite normal.

* Blessed with almost immediately obtaining two different wallets containing Oswald and Hidell ID’s, the cops lost only one of them!  Heck, batting .500 in baseball is GREAT!

* The cops were unable to agree on whether “Lee Harvey Oswald” was arrested in the balcony or on the main floor of the Texas Theater.

* Following a total of 12 hours interrogation, Dallas Police found it unnecessary to make any recording of the accused assassin’s voice, to get any signed statements from the accused, to make a single transcription of ANY of the interviews, or even to take detailed notes of the interviews, beyond the pitiful scrawls of Fritz released decades later.

* According to Fritz’s pitiful scrawls, the cops didn’t bother to ask “Oswald” why he went to Russia, whether he was a spy, or how he got to the Texas Theater so quickly, among almost everything else.

* Police did a bang-up job protecting the life of the accused assassin for almost two full days before they let a strip club operator kill him in their own headquarters!  

* Five years after the assassination, in 1969, former Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry said at a press conference that he wasn't convinced Oswald shot at President Kennedy.  "I'm not sure about it," he said.  "No one has ever been able to put him [Oswald] in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle in his hand."  Curry was chief of the Dallas Police Department at the time JFK was murdered.  According to the Dallas Morning News story covering his press conference, "Curry told reporters he takes Connally's word for it that he (the governor) was hit by a different bullet than one which possibly pierced the President's throat."

How foolish of anyone here to think the DPD would do anything but behave brilliantly in this investigation.

[Jim Hargrove]

Note the extreme care Lt. Day took to avoid getting other prints on the alleged assassination rifle.

 

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Mr. Von Pein’s confidence that the Dallas Police followed proper procedures in investigating this case is indicative of his sheer mastery of this subject.  The brilliant work of the Dallas Police covering the JFK assassination included these highlights:

 

* Police did a bang-up job protecting the life of the accused assassin for almost two full days before they let a strip club operator kill him in their own headquarters!  

 

The DPD was totally responsible for the death of the most important criminal suspect in America's history.

Oswald's murder right inside the DPD's headquarters was the greatest failure of personal security in our history. 

Oswald's murder did more to create suspicion and doubt in the minds of tens of millions of Americans about their own government and their supposed highest integrity investigation than any other single event in the whole JFK affair.

Every DPD member of authority involved with the plan and decision to transfer Oswald's as they did despite tens of thousands of death threats pouring into their department should have been fired and maybe even charged with negligent homicide.

The damage to the JFK truth by Oswald's murder in Dallas police custody is incalculable.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The DPD was totally responsible for the death of the most important criminal suspect in America's history.

Oswald's murder right inside the DPD's headquarters was the greatest failure of personal security in our history. 

Oswald's murder did more to create suspicion and doubt in the minds of tens of millions of Americans about their own government and their supposed highest integrity investigation than any other single event in the whole JFK affair.

Every DPD member of authority involved with the plan and decision to transfer Oswald's as they did despite tens of thousands of death threats pouring into their department should have been fired and maybe even charged with negligent homicide.

The damage to the JFK truth by Oswald's murder in Dallas police custody is incalculable.

Isn’t that the truth?!  Had Oswald lived and gone to trial, the cover-up would have certainly failed and the whole conspiracy may well have unraveled.   Our whole nation would have demanded justice for the perpetrators.  There could never have been a trial in this case, and the Dallas Police somehow ensured that.

Many years ago, my mother and I started talking about the Kennedy assassination, and she said something like, “Well, the day Ruby killed Oswald, we all knew it was some kind of conspiracy.”  NBC News did a report recently that indicated there has never been a time in recent history that a sizable majority of Americans didn’t believe that JFK was murdered as a result of a conspiracy.

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Many years ago, my mother and I started talking about the Kennedy assassination, and she said something like, “Well, the day Ruby killed Oswald, we all knew it was some kind of conspiracy.”  

 

NBC News did a report recently that indicated there has never been a time in recent history that a sizable majority of Americans didn’t believe that JFK was murdered as a result of a conspiracy.

I watched Ruby shoot Oswald on live TV.

Like your mother, I instantly felt that Oswald's murder by Ruby in the DPD building SHOUTED conspiracy.

 

And I've never read or seen anything that has changed my mind since.

[Paul Jolliffe]

Joe said:

"I watched Ruby shoot Oswald on live TV.

Like your mother, I instantly felt that Oswald's murder by Ruby in the DPD building SHOUTED conspiracy.

And I've never read or seen anything that has changed my mind since."

Joe, I suspect that Ruby was emergency"Plan D" for the conspirators: they never worried about a trial for "Oswald" because they never intended that he would live long. I believe that Roy Milton Jones' statement about two (unidentified!) Dallas PD officers boarding the bus on Elm Street just after "Oswald" departed is evidence that "Oswald" was originally to be killed right there on the bus, as part of a "search for weapons." (Plan A.)

The fact that the Warren Commission completely failed to investigate this bizarre event is proof positive to me that they did not want to know how in the world two cops tracked the suspect to that bus within just a very few minutes of the assassination.

"Plan B" involved J.D. Tippit - he was obviously looking for someone in the final few minutes of his life, driving frantically all over Oak Cliff after waiting at the GLOCO station for the "Oswald" bus to stop after crossing the Houston Street viaduct. When it did not stop (and "Oswald" did not depart), then Tippit began driving all over the place. Was Tippit to kill "Oswald" if the bus search failed? Probably.

"Plan C" was to kill "Oswald" in the Texas Theater, and had not "Oswald" shouted at the top of his lungs "I am not resisting arrest, I am not resisting arrest" it seems certain he would have been shot right there.

"Plan D" was Ruby. From the time of "Oswald's" arrest a little before 2 pm on Friday and until he was shot at 11:17 am Sunday, it was almost 46 hours. The conspirators had to sweat it out, wondering when "Oswald" would start talking. "Oswald" did tell the Secret Service on Sunday morning that he would tell them everything he knew, once he had secured a lawyer. And then, just a few minutes later, he was shot dead by Jack Ruby.

 

 

[David Boylan]

Paul said:

 

"Plan C" was to kill "Oswald" in the Texas Theater, and had not "Oswald" shouted at the top of his lungs "I am not resisting arrest, I am not resisting arrest" it seems certain he would have been shot right there.

Paul,

"Plan C" is interesting. John Martino stated that Oswald was to meet his contact in the Texas Theater and get flown out of the country where he would be eliminated. He kept changing seats to see if his contact provided some form of recognition. I'm speculating but I believe it was a torn-in half-dollar bill. John Armstrong noted that Oswald had in his possession when arrested 2 torn in half dollar bills. He also provided a doc showing that AMBIDDY-1, real name Manuel Artime, used this method also. Artime's case officer and AMWORLD contact officer was Henry Hecksher signer of this doc. Fonzi noted in The Last Investigation that Artime had "guilty knowledge" of the assassination. 

As noted from https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html about 1/3 of the way down:

After HARVEY Oswald was arrested, the police found halves of two different dollar bills in his wallet. This was a CIA method of clandestine contact (review CIA memorandum of 7/9/63 below). Wherever and whenever Oswald met his contact, this person would provide confirmation of his or her identity by showing the other half of these dollar bills. Curiously, neither of these half-dollar bills were listed on the police inventory of 11/23/63, the joint FBI/Dallas Police inventory of Oswald's possessions on 11/26/63, nor were these items photographed. At the National Archives, in Adelphi, MD, I inspected and handled each item of inventory listed on the joint FBI/Dallas Police inventory of 11/26/63. These items were not among the inventory nor were they ever mentioned by the Warren Commission. They are, however, described in detail on a Dallas Police inventory report.

Artime's dollar - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=21222&relPageId=2&search=torn_dollar

 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by David Boylan

[Denis Morissette]

How did we go from a Mauser to a plan on erasing Oswald at the Texas Theatre???

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Paul said:

 

"Plan C" was to kill "Oswald" in the Texas Theater, and had not "Oswald" shouted at the top of his lungs "I am not resisting arrest, I am not resisting arrest" it seems certain he would have been shot right there.

Paul,

"Plan C" is interesting. John Martino stated that Oswald was to meet his contact in the Texas Theater and get flown out of the country where he would be eliminated. He kept changing seats to see if his contact provided some form of recognition. I'm speculating but I believe it was a torn-in half-dollar bill. John Armstrong noted that Oswald had in his possession when arrested 2 torn in half dollar bills. He also provided a doc showing that AMBIDDY-1, real name Manuel Artime, used this method also. Artime's case officer and AMWORLD contact officer was Henry Hecksher signer of this doc. Fonzi noted in The Last Investigation that Artime had "guilty knowledge" of the assassination. 

 

 

 

 David,

Yes I agree about the torn dollar bills. I remember talking to John A. about that years ago. We both agreed that it was classic "tradecraft" and there was no way to disguise it as anything else - so the Warren Commission made sure the record of those bills never made it into their records. "Oswald" was obviously looking for his contact at the Texas Theater, but that person was actually part of the frame (unbeknownst to "Oswald".)

An interesting question to me is whether that person, "Oswald's" contact, was the one who gave to him there in the Texas Theater, the revolver used to shoot Tippit, or was "Oswald" given a different revolver earlier, one that was later switched out for the one that fired the shots that killed Tippit?

In other words, did the Dallas PD really take the real weapon used to kill Tippit off of "Oswald" in the theater, or did they later substitute the real one for "Oswald's" revolver from the theater, and no one was supposed to be the wiser?

If you go back and read FBI ballistics man Cortlandt Cunningham's testimony about the revolver, he said that the firing pin on the one he tested was operable, and not damaged. This implies (if the Dallas PD were truthful in their original description of the revolver taken from "Oswald" in the theater) that the weapon Cunningham tested and the weapon taken from "Oswald" were not the same weapons. 

A switch. (Assuming, of course, that Cunningham told the truth. Which may be a heroic assumption!)

"Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, to focus this line of questioning, Officer McDonald, who has reported that he was in a struggle with Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22d, while Oswald was in possession of this revolver, has stated that--I am reading now from an affidavit, from a letter from Officer McDonald to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police of the Dallas Police Force, dated December 3, 1963. 
He states in this letter that as he came in contact with Oswald, "I managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the suspect's clothing and grip, I heard the snap of the hammer, and the pistol crossed over my left cheek. I marked the pistol and six rounds at central station. The primer of one round was dented on misfire at the time of the struggle with the suspect." 
Now, in light of your examination of this weapon, and your discussion, could you comment on this statement? 
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I personally have fired this weapon numerous times, as well as Special Agents Robert Frazier and Charles Killion. At no time did we ever attempt to fire this weapon that it misfired. It operated excellently and every time we have tried to fire it, it has fired."

"Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Officer McDonald's statement that the primer of one round was dented on misfire: as far as you can tell, could this statement be confirmed? 
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; we found nothing to indicate that this weapon's firing pin had struck the primer of any of these cartridges."

Edited April 16, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Paul Jolliffe]

58 minutes ago, Denis Morissette said:

How did we go from a Mauser to a plan on erasing Oswald at the Texas Theatre???

Good question, Denis. I suspect the plan all along was to kill "Oswald" and the frame would fall into place. Since there is no evidence from 11/22/63 that the rifle recovered on the 6th floor was an Italian 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano, and since Eugene Boone could not say under oath in the televised "trial" of Lee Harvey Oswald that the weapon he found was, in fact, the Mannlicher-Carcano, I think it's fair to suspect that it was not the rifle discovered up there. Was it actually a Mauser? Could have been, but I doubt we'll ever know for certain.

I am convinced that the "evidence" linking "Oswald" to the Mannlicher-Carcano was created after the fact, including the Klein's order form, the money order used to pay for the rifle (never deposited into any financial institution), the disappearance of the postal form that would have showed who (if anyone) signed to pick up the rifle sent to "Oswald's" P. O. Box, etc.

In other words, part of the frame-up of "Oswald" was after the fact. 

And that, I think, was due to the fact that "Oswald" was still very much alive, and threatening to talk.

I remain convinced the number one priority for the conspirators was to kill "Oswald" so that the "evidence" against him would never be tested in court.

Here is Dallas Sheriff's Deputy Eugene Boone, under oath, admitting that the rifle he found on the 6th floor of the TSBD was not identified as a "6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano" until after it was in the possession of the FBI. He also admitted that he could not identify the weapon in the National Archives, the infamous Mannlicher-Carcano, as the same rifle that he found!

Why not?

Because it wasn't the same rifle!

From the 11:33 mark until 12: 34, here is Eugene Boone:

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe