Jim Hargrove Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) Jim, The left hand photo is of Capt. Fritz and Detective Elmer Boyd. I'm not sure but I think that is Boyd's personal weapon. The gun he is carrying is a Remington Model 8. It is the first semi-automatic rifle designed for the public about 1908. It later became popular with police agencies across the country. I had done some work on this some time back. That particular model is sometimes called the Bonnie and Clyde gun. It is one of the weapons used to kill Bonnie and Clyde. It is a great sniper weapon for this reason. It can be easily concealed and carried into a building unnoticed. This was a police weapon of preference. Decked out it would look like this. I was at first suspicious of this photo of Fritz and Boyd. Lacking any other evidence it just has to be taken at face value. The right hand photo is Lt. Day of the Identification Bureau. They are two different rifles. On the left is a Remington Model 8 and on the right is the infamous Mannlicher-Carcano. Edited April 12, 2019 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) Did the officer in the first picture on the left ( wearing the white hat - Elmer Boyd ) hand this rifle to the officer in the right photo ( wearing a smaller black hat- Day? ) at some point after the first officer brought the rifle out of the TXSBD? J.Butler says this was Boyd's personal weapon. Can anyone say with certainty that any homicide officers with the white hats carried any rifles into the TXSBD when they first arrived there? Edited April 12, 2019 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 They're definitely two different rifles. One has a scope, the other doesn't, among other differences. I know John B. has some expertise here. I was wondering if there was any chance that the rifle in the left photo was a Mauser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Morissette Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 That's an easy question. Boyd entering the TSBD with his gun at 17:56: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Morissette Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 In the first second or two, you will see Fritz' gun on his right. He's walking along with Deputy Chief of Police Lumpkin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Morissette Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 By the way, there was no Mauser on the 6th floor. I've discussed with several DPD officers and deputy sheriffs who were on the 6th floor early in the afternoon that day, and no one remembers 2 rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: They're definitely two different rifles. One has a scope, the other doesn't, among other differences. I know John B. has some expertise here. I was wondering if there was any chance that the rifle in the left photo was a Mauser. The Mauser described by Roger Craig has some superficial resemblances to the Mannlicher Carcano. The Remington Model 8 does not resemble the Mauser or Mannlicher. The weapon in the photo with Lt. Day is allegedly the same one he shows holding above his head in a photo on the 6th floor, I believe. Here are photos of the rifles and in some cases the Mauser and Mannlicher look the pretty much the same except for clip magazines. Oswald supposedly had the carbine version which is a shorter rifle than the Mauser or some Mannlichers. Featured below is a 7.65 Mauser and below that is various Mannlichers. I have my doubts on that being the same Mannlicher as the one shown by Lt. Day on the 6th floor. I'll have to look up my notes and photos on that. The doubt comes mainly from the position of the scope on the rifle. Others have spoke of this too. Day may have been photographed holding another Mannlicher in another photo in which the scope appears to be in a different position. Not to sure of this. I'll have to find the notes and photos I reviewed some time back. Edited April 13, 2019 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 (edited) Deleted Steve Thomas Edited May 12, 2022 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Krome Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: And then, there is this controversy: What's holding up the bag being carried by L.D. Montgomery? Steve Thomas I've read that it might be a strip of wood pried from the 6th floor window sill. The way he holds it, it makes sense that it's something light-weight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 13 hours ago, Denis Morissette said: In the first second or two, you will see Fritz' gun on his right. He's walking along with Deputy Chief of Police Lumpkin. If this is Capt. Fritz then he appears to be carrying a shotgun. The real question is what did he do with the shotgun when he left the building? Not impossible to hand it off to an inferior to take back to the police station. Of course this is speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 7 hours ago, Tony Krome said: I've read that it might be a strip of wood pried from the 6th floor window sill. The way he holds it, it makes sense that it's something light-weight I don't think I have seen a piece of wood as thin as paper about 1/32 of an inch or less. It is a paper bag. The manufactured one. The bag has been folded several times. Steve Thomas' question is a good one. Paper doesn't weigh much but, it does have weight. Enough weight to collapse the bag after being folded. If you look at Montgomery's hands they don't seem to be positioned to hold the bag upright or in my opinion even hold the bag. In the right hand photo, what is he holding on to in the back of the bag? The same goes for the left hand photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 19 hours ago, Denis Morissette said: By the way, there was no Mauser on the 6th floor. I've discussed with several DPD officers and deputy sheriffs who were on the 6th floor early in the afternoon that day, and no one remembers 2 rifles. ya think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Morissette Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 Not only me who thinks. About 10 people I have talked to who were on the 6th floor. That’s a good number! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bristow Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 (edited) On 4/12/2019 at 1:51 PM, Jim Hargrove said: I think if the rifle on the left was evidence found they would not hold it by the stock because it would obscure fingerprints. This next bit is not directly related to the topic, but for what it is worth I have seen comparisons of different photos of the Carcano from the Dallas PD, Warren Commission and the photo on the right, and the dimension all differ. It is simply due to the angle of the rifle to the camera. In the photo on the right the butt of the rifle is oversized because it is closer to the camera. That enlarged part decreases as you move towards the end of the barrel. Because the butt is magnified the overall rifle length is extended, so if you match image sizes to compare it to another rifle you end up shrinking it too much. This makes for some weird distorted comparisons. The Butt appears magnified but the magnification gradually and consistently lessens until it appears smaller than the comparison rifle at the end of the barrel. This odd combination of size distortion, imo, verifies that we are seeing the same rifle from different angles Below is the same rifle photographed from 12 feet. The bottom of the rifle on the left sits about 4 inches closer. You can see the bulk of the magnification occurs from the trigger down. I can't find the original scope so I put my custom one on. It is a 1x1 magnification with a nice wide field of view and absolutely zero optical distortion, and was originally very absorbent. Edited September 15, 2019 by Chris Bristow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now