Oswald's "Interrogation" and the WC.

[David Josephs]

13 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Read Buell Wesley Frazier's account of his face off with the "master" interrogator where he tells Fritz if he hits him ( Frazier) with his raised fist, he's goin to be in one hell of a cat fight.

Fritz walked out.

Wesley says "hours of interrogation" - is there any record of anything Wesley said beyond his watching him walk to the TSBD with that package under his arm.....

and that the brown bad was not made of heavy packing paper but was a thin dime-store paper sack about 2' long....

I happen to think that Wesley tried as hard as possible not to incriminate Oswald yet I believe he ultimately had not choice...

It is becoming my POV that there never was a paper sack related to Oswald... with mom and sis backing Wesley's story to keep him out of trouble.

Shields does not say anything about the following statement he makes to the HSCA - to the WC.
I think he is talking about Charles GIVENS as he was with Givens at the Elm/Record Parking lot during the motorcade.

 

Where did Oswald get his lunch?

[David Josephs]

As I was searching for Wesley's interrogation notes I came across this statement concluding an argument on DVP's site:

Numbers 1 through 8 above strongly suggest that Lee Harvey Oswald's "curtain rod" story was a complete fabrication from the beginning, used as a device with which to avoid suspicion when he carried his dismantled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle into the Depository Building on the same morning of President Kennedy's visit to Dallas, Texas.

 

Now, doesn't it make a bit more sense that FRAZIER fabricated the story since Oswald is claimed to have said he 1 - did not bring a bag to work, and 2 - never said anything about curtain rods....  Since Fritz did these notes well afterward, does it not make more sense to claim Oswald did say he brought a bag with curtain rods in it?

Now why in the world would Wesley lie? - to save himself?  Maybe has something to do with William "Bill" Randle and his relationship with Oswald?

Mr. BALL - And who lives in that house with you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - My sister and brother-in-law and their three children. 
Mr. BALL - Will you state their names, your sister's name? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue. 

 

Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it. 

Even the Find a Grave site bio perpetuates the lie

Linnie Randle testified to the Warren Commission that she had seen Lee Harvey Oswald with a long package under his arm when he got into her brother, Buell Wesley Frazier's car as they left for work at the Texas School Book Depository on Friday, 22 Nov. 1963.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/102461058/linnie-mae-randle

 

 

  William Edward "Bill" Randle https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/131275226/william-edward-randle 

A funeral Service for William "Bill" Randle age 80, of Dike will be held at 10:00 a.m. Friday, June 13, 2014 at First Baptist Church of Sulphur Springs with Bro. Mike Skelton and Bro. Fred Lewis officiating. Interment will follow in Restlawn Memorial Park with Grandsons and Great-Grandsons serving as Pallbearers. With Ray Skelton, Randy Gyer, B.W. Frazier, Robert Frazier, Erwin Boyle, Clifford Randle, Marvin Randle, Don Randle and Chuck Creed serving as honorary Pallbearers. Visitation will be from 6 until 8 pm Thursday, June 12, 2014 at Murray-Orwosky Funeral Home. Bill Randle died Wednesday, June 11, 2014 at his residence. He was born January 20, 1934, in Dallas to Alfred Ernest Randle and Adina Gebert. He married Linnie Frazier who preceded him in death in 2012. Bill was a retired cabinet maker and wood worker. He was a member of the First Baptist Church and served as a Deacon since 1955. He is survived by daughters, Diana Gyer (Randy) of Dike, Patricia Skelton (Ray) of Sulphur Springs; brothers Clifford Randle, Marvin Randle and Don Randle all of Irving; sister Dorothy Creed of Coppell; Grandchildren, Jason Ashford, Josh Ashford, Steven Cooper, Patricia Cooper, Mike Skelton, Brandon Skelton, Jessica Heaton and Amber Jester , and nine Great grandchildren He was preceded in death by his parents, one brother Charlie Randle and a daughter Carolyn Ashford and one great granddaughter Chloe Ashford.

From WCD 21 we find yet another piece of the puzzle about which Wesley was not questioned... 

His brother-in-law knows Lee Harvey in one FBI report yet denies this to the SS 5 days later...

 

I haven't been able to find the SAIC Benavides O/M, San Antonio 11/25/63 that they reference here....  I've found a few 11/25 reports by Benavides but they had to do with New Orleans and a woman claiming to see Charles Steele Jr in both New Orleans leafleting film and in front of the TSBD

 

 

 

Ya see, if Oswald's paper sack did not or could not contain a rifle... there was no other way for it to get to the TSBD...  Frazier was their only choice 'cause the other paper sack never made it to Oswald.

"Denied Curtain Rods"

 

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

As I was searching for Wesley's interrogation notes I came across this statement concluding an argument on DVP's site:

Numbers 1 through 8 above strongly suggest that Lee Harvey Oswald's "curtain rod" story was a complete fabrication from the beginning, used as a device with which to avoid suspicion when he carried his dismantled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle into the Depository Building on the same morning of President Kennedy's visit to Dallas, Texas.

 

Now, doesn't it make a bit more sense that FRAZIER fabricated the story since Oswald is claimed to have said he 1 - did not bring a bag to work, and 2 - never said anything about curtain rods....  Since Fritz did these notes well afterward, does it not make more sense to claim Oswald did say he brought a bag with curtain rods in it?

Now why in the world would Wesley lie? - to save himself?  Maybe has something to do with William "Bill" Randle and his relationship with Oswald?

Mr. BALL - And who lives in that house with you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - My sister and brother-in-law and their three children. 
Mr. BALL - Will you state their names, your sister's name? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue. 

 

Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it. 

Even the Find a Grave site bio perpetuates the lie

Linnie Randle testified to the Warren Commission that she had seen Lee Harvey Oswald with a long package under his arm when he got into her brother, Buell Wesley Frazier's car as they left for work at the Texas School Book Depository on Friday, 22 Nov. 1963.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/102461058/linnie-mae-randle

 

 

  William Edward "Bill" Randle https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/131275226/william-edward-randle 

A funeral Service for William "Bill" Randle age 80, of Dike will be held at 10:00 a.m. Friday, June 13, 2014 at First Baptist Church of Sulphur Springs with Bro. Mike Skelton and Bro. Fred Lewis officiating. Interment will follow in Restlawn Memorial Park with Grandsons and Great-Grandsons serving as Pallbearers. With Ray Skelton, Randy Gyer, B.W. Frazier, Robert Frazier, Erwin Boyle, Clifford Randle, Marvin Randle, Don Randle and Chuck Creed serving as honorary Pallbearers. Visitation will be from 6 until 8 pm Thursday, June 12, 2014 at Murray-Orwosky Funeral Home. Bill Randle died Wednesday, June 11, 2014 at his residence. He was born January 20, 1934, in Dallas to Alfred Ernest Randle and Adina Gebert. He married Linnie Frazier who preceded him in death in 2012. Bill was a retired cabinet maker and wood worker. He was a member of the First Baptist Church and served as a Deacon since 1955. He is survived by daughters, Diana Gyer (Randy) of Dike, Patricia Skelton (Ray) of Sulphur Springs; brothers Clifford Randle, Marvin Randle and Don Randle all of Irving; sister Dorothy Creed of Coppell; Grandchildren, Jason Ashford, Josh Ashford, Steven Cooper, Patricia Cooper, Mike Skelton, Brandon Skelton, Jessica Heaton and Amber Jester , and nine Great grandchildren He was preceded in death by his parents, one brother Charlie Randle and a daughter Carolyn Ashford and one great granddaughter Chloe Ashford.

From WCD 21 we find yet another piece of the puzzle about which Wesley was not questioned... 

His brother-in-law knows Lee Harvey in one FBI report yet denies this to the SS 5 days later...

 

I haven't been able to find the SAIC Benavides O/M, San Antonio 11/25/63 that they reference here....  I've found a few 11/25 reports by Benavides but they had to do with New Orleans and a woman claiming to see Charles Steele Jr in both New Orleans leafleting film and in front of the TSBD

 

 

 

Ya see, if Oswald's paper sack did not or could not contain a rifle... there was no other way for it to get to the TSBD...  Frazier was their only choice 'cause the other paper sack never made it to Oswald.

"Denied Curtain Rods"

 

 

 

"Now why in the world would Wesley lie? - to save himself?  Maybe has something to do with William "Bill" Randle and his relationship with Oswald?"

David, 

Do we agree that if Frazier had buckled to Fritz's pressure to "confess", then a carrot would likely have been offered to Frazier: implicate "Oswald" as the prime-mover behind the assassination, and Frazier would have faced little (or maybe no) jail time? 

In other words, I think that if the pressure on Frazier induced a "confession", then that "confession" would have been used to dismiss any later concerns about the lack of any physical evidence against "Oswald". Frazier would prop up the case against "Oswald". 

And of course, if by that time "Oswald" was dead, well then, Frazier's "confession" would cinch the case against "Oswald". 

Now we all know that Frazier was innocent of any involvement, and it may seem a ridiculous strategy to us to frame a man so obviously innocent. But that was not the way the Dallas authorities under Henry Wade operated back then.

As Assistant D. A. Ed Gray (1969 - 74) later remarked:

"I saw how it happened when I was with the DA's office. I saw the callous attitude that we had. I saw the flippancy toward these cases where the evidence was flimsy at best."

"I confess that I became so arrogant that I believed I could convince a jury of anything," he said.

There was a cocky joke within the DA's office back then: Anybody can convict a guilty person. Convicting the innocent is the trick."

[David Josephs]

27 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Do we agree that if Frazier had buckled to Fritz's pressure to "confess", then a carrot would likely have been offered to Frazier: implicate "Oswald" as the prime-mover behind the assassination, and Frazier would have faced little (or maybe no) jail time? 

Hey there Paul....

"confess" to what... do you think? 

- Accessory after the fact?
- Direct Accessory - in that the confession would state he knew a rifle was in the bag and he helped Oswald go get it and get it into the TSBD?
- The murder itself?  There is no image of Wesley before we see him on the steps AFTER the shooting.

as to speculating about jail time and such, IDK....   do you get the impression that Fritz would just say nothing and leave after Wesley threatens him with retaliatory violence should they want to try and "make" him sign....  "I'll get in a few good licks before you take me..." he says to Fritz, or something to that effect.

Seems strange to me that DPD cops and whoever else was in there just let that slide....

[Tony Krome]

5 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Now, doesn't it make a bit more sense that FRAZIER fabricated the story  [re: curtain rods]

No, I don't believe that to be the case.

Take away elaborations, post-assassination, that Ralph Yates told Dempsey Jones regarding the hitch-hiker, and you are left with Yates dropping off a man with a package at the corner of Houston/Elm, and that the man talked about the possibility of shooting the President from a building as he passed by.

It was after the assassination that Yates described the "long package" as possibly containing "window shades".

So we have confirmation and corroboration of a package pre-assassination, but the content of the package was post-assassination.

This event was determined to have occurred on Thursday 21st and Yates informed Dempsey the same day.

This event essentially mirrors what allegedly occurred the next morning in that Frazier drops off a man with a package at the corner of Houston/Elm as per Mr. Shields

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

15 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Hey there Paul....

"confess" to what... do you think? 

- Accessory after the fact?
- Direct Accessory - in that the confession would state he knew a rifle was in the bag and he helped Oswald go get it and get it into the TSBD?
- The murder itself?  There is no image of Wesley before we see him on the steps AFTER the shooting.

as to speculating about jail time and such, IDK....   do you get the impression that Fritz would just say nothing and leave after Wesley threatens him with retaliatory violence should they want to try and "make" him sign....  "I'll get in a few good licks before you take me..." he says to Fritz, or something to that effect.

Seems strange to me that DPD cops and whoever else was in there just let that slide....

David,

Well, I can only speculate here, but maybe:

The DPD wanted Frazier to confess to knowing about "Oswald's" rifle in the bag. (Direct Accessory, but maybe they'd induce Frazier with the hint that he didn't know about "Oswald's" plans to shoot JFK, and therefore, he could save himself by buttressing the case against "Oswald.")

Why?

Because as of Friday evening, there was exactly zero evidence that "Oswald" had transported a rifle into the TSBD. The DPD needed the bag story to get a rifle into the TSBD.

Remember that the DPD was clearly conflicted on Friday night about the "curtain rods" story - they actually brought Frazier back to HQ to give him the polygraph about it, which (supposedly) he passed. And therefore (supposedly) Frazier was telling the truth, and therefore (supposedly) "Oswald" was lying in his denial about bringing a suspicious bag to work.

I agree with you that "Oswald" did not bring any bag approaching 36" or 27" or any other major size to work. (He may have brought a much smaller lunch bag, but nothing remarkable - he did eat a simple lunch that day, after all.)

So why did Fritz and the other cops let Frazier's threatened physical retaliation slide?

Well, we know things were proceeding hot and heavy at that moment: the FBI had seized the "evidence" (including the rifle, whatever it was, recovered from the TSBD).

Did Fritz get word that the FBI had "traced" the rifle back to Oswald, and therefore the case against "Oswald" no longer needed firming up from Frazier?

The timing is tight, but maybe it works - I get the impression that Frazier's confrontation with Fritz happened before the FBI could have officially "cinched" the case against "Oswald" with the physical evidence. (Remember, supposedly the FBI did not match up the Klein's order form until sometime around 4:00 am Chicago time. But, since those documents were almost certainly phony anyway, maybe the FBI let slip earlier what they expected to "find" at Klein's later.)

But still, that's the only logical answer I can think of to your good question: why did Fritz back down to Frazier?

Did Fritz on Friday night suddenly get word through FBI channels (official or otherwise) that the FBI could or would make the (phony) case against "Oswald" on its own, and therefore Frazier's (phony) "confession" was no longer necessary?

That's my guess.

Jesse Curry certainly hinted at it under oath:

Mr. CURRY - I believe I told them it had been reported that we had an FBI report that they had been able to trace that weapon where he had ordered it from Chicago, and it had been picked up under the name of Hidell and that the handwriting was the same on the order blank as Oswald's.
Mr. RANKIN - Was this told to a news conference or over the TV?
Mr. CURRY - Well, the TV was there. It was not a news conference. I was walking down the hall, and they surrounded me.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you tell them anything else about the evidence you had against Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - I only told them I believed that we had some other evidence, but I didn't tell them what it was.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you ever tell them any more about the evidence that you had- against Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe so; I don't recall it.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you ever tell them about the evidence you had against Oswald concerning the Tippit shooting?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I don't believe I made any comment.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know about when this was made, these statements were made about the evidence?
Mr. CURRY - I believe this was on Friday, the 22d, during the late evening.

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[David Josephs]

58 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

I agree with you that "Oswald" did not bring any bag approaching 36" or 27" or any other major size to work. (He may have brought a much smaller lunch bag, but nothing remarkable - he did eat a simple lunch that day, after all.)

Frazier testifies to Oswald buying his lunch that day..... where would that have been?

58 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Did Fritz on Friday night suddenly get word through FBI channels (official or otherwise) that the FBI could or would make the (phony) case against "Oswald" on its own, and therefore Frazier's (phony) "confession" was no longer necessary?

I’ll be doing a presentation updating what we know at CAPA in Nov about the rifle and who knew what, when.  It is directly provable that the FBI used evidence of one transaction to represent the 10 cartons to Klein’s order that did not happen based on the available evidence

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-index I have a few articles on the rifle....

After offering back to back reports stating the FBI took this film signed only by Dolan, and another, signed by all 3 agents saying Walkman kept the film...  Worse yet what happens to the rest of the non existent FC rifles since the only rifle ever seen from those 100 serial numbers is C2766.  How many were left in stock.?  How many were used to fill C20-T750 orders? Between Feb 63 and Nov 63 when he claims they stopped?

 

 

[David Josephs]

14 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

No, I don't believe that to be the case.

Take away elaborations, post-assassination, that Ralph Yates told Dempsey Jones regarding the hitch-hiker, and you are left with Yates dropping off a man with a package at the corner of Houston/Elm, and that the man talked about the possibility of shooting the President from a building as he passed by.

It was after the assassination that Yates described the "long package" as possibly containing "window shades".

So we have confirmation and corroboration of a package pre-assassination, but the content of the package was post-assassination.

This event was determined to have occurred on Thursday 21st and Yates informed Dempsey the same day.

This event essentially mirrors what allegedly occurred the next morning in that Frazier drops off a man with a package at the corner of Houston/Elm as per Mr. Shields

 

Tony,

If we are gong to have Yates deliver a man with a rifle in a paper sack to Elm and Houston... Frazier made up the curtain rod story...  if that was actually his lunch, only Wesley can dispel that but he doesn’t but saying it was a small dime store type flimsy paper sack... not enough to hold 7lbs of broken down rifle 34” long, clip, ammo, and nothing with which to assemble them....

The postage due package to Lee in Irving was supposed to be there before the 20th so he comes home, as the evidence would say, retreived the constructed bag from this package and used it to bring you in the rifle....

since this did not happen you need to ask yourself.... who made the bag that was claimed to be but never shown in the SE corner, and when.  Monty comes out with the bag later in the afternoon... yet if you read Studebaker and Day and Monty and Johnson’s testimonies about who picked up that bag and where it went is very revealing.  I did a full post on it so I’m sure it can be found

here is the one where Gary Mack sent me the transcript of Montgomery’s oral history statement. 

 

Here it is... love Day’s comment... “There’s a legible print on it now”

how does one create a paper sack from flat paper without leaving any prints... and if what Johnson says is true, the DPD personnel handled that bag before it went to DC... they should have found legible identifiable prints from the men who handled it... but after Ozzie is dead, only his prints are found... when the FBI sends the bag back to Dallas...  

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you can remember about that sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he probably brought it in.

That is why, the reason we saved it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything, any print of any kind, in connection with the processing of this?

Mr. DAY. No legible prints were found with the powder, no.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether any legible prints were found by any other means or any other place?

Mr. DAY. There is a legible print on it now. They were on there when it was returned to me from the FBI on November 24.

[Tony Krome]

8 hours ago, David Josephs said:

The postage due package to Lee in Irving was supposed to be there before the 20th so he comes home, as the evidence would say, retreived the constructed bag from this package and used it to bring you in the rifle....

First of all, do you associate the "notice of attempt to deliver mail card", as described in Stovall B, as directly connected to the "Nassaus" package?

[David Josephs]

14 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

First of all, do you associate the "notice of attempt to deliver mail card", as described in Stovall B, as directly connected to the "Nassaus" package?

As opposed to what ?

How else do you suppose we are even aware of this package?

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

As opposed to what ?

How else do you suppose we are even aware of this package?

That's fine, there are those that prefer to separate the two, so I asked. Below is an example found on this site;

"no connection was established between the Undelivered, Undeliverable Package with no Postage on it and the "postage due" notice found at Ruth Paine's house."

[Jeffrey Reilley]

On 4/27/2019 at 11:30 AM, Denny Zartman said:

REPORTER – “Did you kill the president?”
LHO – “No, I have not been charged with that, in fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall, uh, asked me that question.”
(Crosstalk) REPORTER – “You have been charged with…”
(Crosstalk) REPORTER – “Somebody said what?”
LHO – “Sir?”
(Crosstalk) REPORTER – “You have been charged with…”
(Crosstalk) REPORTER – “Somebody said what? We can’t hear you back here.”
VOICE – “Okay.”
REPORTER – “What did you do in Russia?”
REPORTER – “How did you hurt your eye? Mr. Oswald, how did you hurt your eye?”
LHO – “A policeman hit me.”
Source 1, 2, 3
-
Unknown time:

That little blurb right there is the reason for so many hours of my life being consumed by this. When Oswald kind of slumps after the reporter tells him he has been charged, he knew he was done.