Oswald's "Interrogation" and the WC.

[Tommy Tomlinson]

Hello everyone.

Among my friends and pub quiz team, I'm known as "The JFK Guy" but having seen the stuff here I realise how little I truly know. So first, thank you all for providing such valuable information for those of us who don't have access to it.

One thing that has always played on my mind is the interrogation of Oswald subsequent to his arrest in the Movie Theatre on 11/23. (To be honest the entire arrest has me scratching my head... but I'll start with the one that bugs me most.)

My question is this, "How much, if any, of that interrogation found it's way to the WC, and is there a source that I can  look at without having to read the entire WCR?" 

Also, did the WC chastise investigators for the nature of the interrogation, with it's lack of notes and legal representation for the prisoner?

It would be somewhat ironic if the WC had accepted testimony based on questions asked without a lawyer present, given what later happened with Haggerty and the finger print card.

Basically, any info on the interrogation and its subsequent dissemination would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Tony Krome]

36 minutes ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Also, did the WC chastise investigators for the nature of the interrogation, with it's lack of notes and legal representation for the prisoner?

It's clear to me Oswald's complaining about being given a hearing without legal representation, so the John Abt story about Oswald requesting a New York lawyer to fly down seems a bit too convenient to me. If the Abt story was true, surely Oswald didn't expect him till arrive until Monday, so a local lawyer in the meantime would have sufficed. IMO he was denied a lawyer and the WC convinced themselves that Oswald was in the process of contacting Abt.

 

[Tommy Tomlinson]

Cheers Tony.

Interesting that the reporter said nothing about Oswald's complaint.

How things have changed...

Imagine if MSNBC et al were reporting on that today!

That one line about "no legal representation" alone would keep the news cycle busy for a week.

[Steve Thomas]

6 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

 

Basically, any info on the interrogation and its subsequent dissemination would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Tommy,

 

I'm assuming you've read Fritz's interrogation notes you can find here:

http://www.jfklancer.com/Fritzdocs.html

You can find a bunch of citations in the DPD Archives, in the Index under Interrogations here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/image_index1.pdf

You can also find a draft in Box Box 5, Folder# 3, Item# 3 here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

Thanks for the handy links.  Do you think it was Fritz who had the following notes typed out?

3. Interrogation, by an unknown author. Draft of interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), date unknown. 00001376 13 pages 05 03 003 1376-001.gif  1376-002.gif  1376-003.gif  1376-004.gif  1376-005.gif  1376-006.gif 1376-007.gif 1376-008.gif  1376-009.gif  1376-010.gif  1376-011.gif  1376-012.gif  1376-013.gif

[Denny Zartman]

7 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Hello everyone.

Among my friends and pub quiz team, I'm known as "The JFK Guy" but having seen the stuff here I realise how little I truly know. So first, thank you all for providing such valuable information for those of us who don't have access to it.

One thing that has always played on my mind is the interrogation of Oswald subsequent to his arrest in the Movie Theatre on 11/23. (To be honest the entire arrest has me scratching my head... but I'll start with the one that bugs me most.)

My question is this, "How much, if any, of that interrogation found it's way to the WC, and is there a source that I can  look at without having to read the entire WCR?" 

Also, did the WC chastise investigators for the nature of the interrogation, with it's lack of notes and legal representation for the prisoner?

It would be somewhat ironic if the WC had accepted testimony based on questions asked without a lawyer present, given what later happened with Haggerty and the finger print card.

Basically, any info on the interrogation and its subsequent dissemination would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Tommy, welcome to the forum!

Here's Mae Brussell's "The Last Words Of Lee Harvey Oswald", which (as far as I am personally aware) is the most complete summary of everything Oswald said in custody. If there are any major errors or discoveries since it was written in 1978, I hope someone on the forum will please let me know.

Brussell's work seems to compile information from the Warren Commission testimony of Captain Will Fritz, Detectives Richard Stovall and L.C. Graves, Dallas Police Officer L. D. Montgomery, FBI Agents James Bookhout, James Hosty, and Manning Clements, Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels, and postal inspector Harry Holmes. Oddly, Brussell's work does not seem to include the statements Oswald made during the press conference or as he was being moved about the police station in proximity to the media.

Below is my compilation of my transcriptions of every bit of Oswald post-assassination footage I could find. Use caution using it as a source because it hasn't been checked by anyone, is incomplete, and I might have made some errors. There's some footage of Oswald complaining about his "hygienic rights" and not being allowed to take a shower out there somewhere, but I haven't been able to find this footage again.

LEE HARVEY OSWALD RECORDED STATEMENTS POST ASSASSINATION
-
Unknown time: After first interrogation session? After Carcano displayed to press at 6:16 PM. Estimated as around 7:16 PM.
LHO: “…people have given me a hearing without legal representation, or anything.”
REPORTER – “Did you shoot the president?”
LHO: “I didn’t shoot anybody, no sir.”
Source – 1, 2
-
7:55 PM
LHO – “I’d like some legal representation. These, these police officers have not allowed me to, to have any. I, uh, I don’t know what this is all about.”
REPORTERS – “How’d you get the black eye?” (crosstalk with) “Did you kill the president?”
LHO – “No sir, I didn’t. People keep asking me that.”
REPORTER – (Inaudible)
REPORTER – “Did you shoot the president?”
LHO – “I work in that building.”
REPORTER – “Were you in the building at that time?”
LHO – “Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.”
VOICE – “Back up, man.”
VOICE – “Come on, man.”
REPORTER – “Did you shoot the president?”
LHO – “No, they’ve taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union.”
REPORTER – “What time did you leave the building?”
LHO – “I’m just a patsy.”
Source – 1, 4
-
Unknown time: Also known as Third Hallway Interview
REPORTER: “Here comes Oswald, down the hall again.”
REPORTER- “Did you fire that rifle?”
LHO – “I don’t know what, what dispatches you people have been given, but I emphatically deny these charges.”
REPORTER: “Oswald is hustled, uh, through a doorway.”
LHO: “(Inaudible)…not committed any act of violence.”
REPORTER – “He says he has nothing against anybody; he has not committed any act of violence. Oswald makes this claim as he’s hustled from the interrogation room…”
Source - 1
-
12:00 AM estimated November 23, 1963
Also known as Midnight Press Conference:
LHO – “I positively know nothin’ about this situation here. I would like to have re-, uh, legal representation.”
REPORTERS – (Inaudible crosstalk)
REPORTER – “Louder.”
REPORTERS – (Inaudible crosstalk)
LHO - “Well, I was, uh, questioned by a judge, however I, uh, protested at that time I was not allowed legal representation during that, ah, that ah, very short and sweet hearing. Uh, I really don’t know what, what the situation is about, nobody has told me anything except that I’m accused of, uh, of uh, murdering a policeman. I know nothing more than that, and I do request, uh, someone to come forward, uh, to give me, uh, legal assistance.”
REPORTER – “Did you kill the president?”
LHO – “No, I have not been charged with that, in fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall, uh, asked me that question.”
(Crosstalk) REPORTER – “You have been charged with…”
(Crosstalk) REPORTER – “Somebody said what?”
LHO – “Sir?”
(Crosstalk) REPORTER – “You have been charged with…”
(Crosstalk) REPORTER – “Somebody said what? We can’t hear you back here.”
VOICE – “Okay.”
REPORTER – “What did you do in Russia?”
REPORTER – “How did you hurt your eye? Mr. Oswald, how did you hurt your eye?”
LHO – “A policeman hit me.”
Source 1, 2, 3
-
Unknown time:
REPORTER – “Oswald, did you shoot the president?”
LHO – “I didn’t shoot anybody, sir. I haven’t been told what I’m here for.”
REPORTER – “Do you have a lawyer?”
LHO – “No sir, I don’t.”
Source - 1
-
Unknown time: Just prior to a police lineup, complaining about shirt.
LHO – “I’ve been photographed in a tee shirt, and now they’re taking me to a line up along with these men (unintelligible) will be picked out. Right?”
VOICE – “That’s right."
Source - 1

-

Sources:
Source 1 - YouTube – “Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas Police Department” 6 min, 59 sec published by HelmerReenberg on May 15, 2008
Source 2 - YouTube – “JFK - The Dallas Tapes - Original Oswald Footage” 8 min, 40 sec, published by AlBoesch on Jul 4, 2009
Source 3 – YouTube – “November 23, 1963 - Various clips from Lee Harvey Oswald's Midnight Press Conference, Dallas, Texas” 4 min, 26 sec, published by HelmerReenberg on Nov 2, 2015
Source 4 – YouTube – “LEE HARVEY OSWALD DECLARES "I'M JUST A PATSY"” 0 min, 46 sec, published by David Von Pein's JFK Channel on Sep 1, 2013

[Joe Bauer]

There are so many incidents of almost incomprehensible dereliction in the processing, interrogation, handling and physical security of Lee Harvey Oswald ( his murder while in their custody! ) by the Dallas P.D. that a rational person of even average intelligence is literally "forced" to feel great suspicion about the whole JFK/Oswald/Jack Ruby/Dallas P.D. story to the totally logical level of sensing a conspiracy.

Based on just the most simple common knowledge record of the Dallas PD in their handling of Oswald while in their custody, it is the people who refuse to accept the reality of the magnitude of this mind boggling dereliction by the Dallas P.D. and feel no suspicion about it that qualifies "them" as needing mental health therapy and not those who see and acknowledge this Dallas P.D. dereliction reality and consider it with great suspicion.

Many minor character 11,22,1963 Dealey Plaza witnesses like Julia Ann Mercer, Arnold Rowland, Carolyn Walther, Abraham Zapruder, Jean Hill, William Newman, etc had more thoroughly recorded and documented affidavit interviews ( notary present) than the most important person of all - Lee Harvey Oswald - had with Will Fritz!

No notary present? No tape recorder? No transcriptionist?

Just old age addled and biased Will Fritz's random, messy scribblings?

Please!

Just this aspect of the JFK event ALONE - Oswald's handling, interrogation and protection while in Dallas Police custody -  forces rational minds to consider a scenario of great suspicion much more logically than not.

A true "conspiracy nut" is one who hides from this truth and believes there is a conspiracy to create a false reality alternate one versus their perception of complete DPD innocence in their handling of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Oswald is whacked while handcuffed to two DPD officers right in their own building during a publicly pre-announced move by a strip joint owner who is known on a first name basis by half the officers in or around the supposedly secured basement.

Patrick Dean, William "Blackie" Harrison, Jim Leavelle and more ... but, this sleazy and suspicious cop/strip joint owner incestuous relationship scenario is dismissed as meaningless by those who cannot allow themselves to believe the DPD was capable of any nefarious doings.

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[Tony Krome]

What we heard Oswald say;

LHO; have given me a hearing without legal representation, or anything.

LHO; I’d like some legal representation. These, these police officers have not allowed me to, to have any.

LHO; I would like to have re-, uh, legal representation

LHO; protested at that time I was not allowed legal representation

What Fritz said;

Mr. BALL. He was advised that he had a right to an attorney, was he? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am sure he was; I advised him on that on two or three different occasions. 

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that he didn't want a lawyer 

One of the above guys is a BS Artist

[Steve Thomas]

16 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Thanks for the handy links.  Do you think it was Fritz who had the following notes typed out?

3. Interrogation, by an unknown author. Draft of interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), date unknown. 00001376 13 pages 05 03 003 1376-001.gif  1376-002.gif  1376-003.gif  1376-004.gif  1376-005.gif  1376-006.gif 1376-007.gif 1376-008.gif  1376-009.gif  1376-010.gif  1376-011.gif  1376-012.gif  1376-013.gif

Jim,

 

The citations you noted are in Box 5, Folder# 3, Item# 3 of the DPD Archives. This document mirrors CE 2003.

CE 2003 is the Dallas Police case file that the DPD turned over to Texas State Attorney General, Waggoner Carr, and forms the basis of Warren Commission Documents, 81 and 81b.

You see the number 138-A at the bottom of page 9 in the documents you cited? That is the DPD case file number.

Now compare that to page 268 of CE 2003. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=286&tab=page

The letter "I" has been added to the Warren Commission version. That is the "I" index for the DPD case file. (I think it was filed under "I" for Interrogations)

Whoever made the editorial changes that you see for example on page 9 of the DPD Archives document that are in Box 5, made those changes after the Warren Report came out.

Whoever made those changes had to have had access to the DPD archives.

I believe that this was a clumsy attempt to hide the fact that LHO was interrogated between 12:35 and 1:10 PM on Saturday afternoon the 23rd, where he was asked about the rifle pictures, some four hours before they were officially found.

 

There are two versions of Fritz's interview with Oswald in the DPD Archives. One is in Box 1 and another is in Box 15.

 

1) Interrogation, by an unknown author. Typed rough draft with handwritten corrections pertaining to the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), date unknown. DPD Archives Box 1, Folder# 15, Item# 1. Consists of 12 pages. This is the version of the Interrogation that has stenographer's notes.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

On page 8 of that Report, it says that Oswald was brought down for an Interrogation at 12:35 PM on Saturday, November 23^rd. In this version, Fritz says that Oswald was brought to the office for another interview with Inspector Kelly (the name Kelly is corrected to Kelley), and “some of the other officers and myself”.

 

2) Interrogation, by J. W. Fritz. Draft of the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Photocopy) Poor Quality), date unknown DPD Archives, Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 111. This consists of 13 pages. By starting new paragraphs as called for in the draft in Box 1, this draft has been extended to 13 pages. You can also see the differences between page 5 in Box1 and page 6 in Box 15 where Fritz wanted language added about the bus transfer in Oswald's pocket. This tells me that the draft in Box 1 came first.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

On page 9 of this Box 15 version, the 12:35 time has been crossed out, and 6:00 PM has been written in.

There is an additional note written in that I can't make out. (Brd Int?/Bnd Intv?) Is Intv an abbreviation for Interview? (David Butler in the Education Forum suggested that this is “3^rd Interview). (Alistair Briggs of the Education Forum also pointed out that the note on page 10 of this version also shows an attempt to change the numbering of the Interrogations). If that's the case, in my mind, by changing the time from 12:35 to 6:00 PM, and by re-numbering the interviews, that's another indication of Fritz trying to hide the 12:35 interview. (In this version, Fritz says that those present were “Inspector Kelley and some of the other officers and myself”. There are other handwritten additions to this Report, indicating that at some point, someone went back in and tried to alter this version, since it so closely mirrors the copy found in Appendix XI of the Warren Report. I believe that the version on Box 15 was altered after the release of Appendix XI of the WR, CE 2003 and CD 81 were released.

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks so much for your detailed overview of Fritz’s interrogation notes, Steve.  Comparing the Box 1 draft with the Box 15 version is fascinating. Besides what you noted above about the timing of his questioning about the so-called Backyard Photo(s), something else struck me in the initial comparison.

Although the syntax isn’t one hundred percent clear, on page 7 of the Box 1 version he SEEMS to be saying that Robert Oswald was a close friend of the Paines, although it could be interpreted differently.  But adding to my suspicions that he was really referring to Robert is the handwritten edit to the same basic paragraph on page 6 of the Box 15 version. This edit moves the sentence just enough to make it seem as if it is no longer a reference to Robert.

Fritz clearly admits that “this report was made from rough notes and memory”  but it strikes me as utterly remarkable that it is undated and unsigned.  Do you have any clues about when it might have been composed and/or typed?

Even more remarkable than the above is Fritz’s statement: “I have no recorder in this office and was unable to record the interview.”  I seem to recall seeing years ago a somewhat contemporaneous floor plan of DPD headquarters, and marked on it was an enclosed space called “Recording Room.”  No doubt the recording equipment was busy monitoring more important suspects. 

[Steve Thomas]

34 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Fritz clearly admits that “this report was made from rough notes and memory”  but it strikes me as utterly remarkable that it is undated and unsigned.  Do you have any clues about when it might have been composed and/or typed?

Jim,

 

No, I don't. I would be willing to guess that it was typed up by a stenographer, but I don't know who that was either.

I think it was done some time after Thomas Kelly submitted his interrogation report and the cat was out of the bag about the 12:35 Interview.

 

Steve Thomas

[Tommy Tomlinson]

Fantastic! Thank you so much guys, that's all really helpful.

One of the arguments I often have with a friend of mine who is very certain the lone gunman story is exactly as they wanted us to think it is, is not so much the evidence of conspiracy, it's the absence of normality in pretty much everything to with what immediately happened before, during and after the assassination by people who should have known better, and who would have been hauled over the coals if they had behaved the way they did and their mistakes had led to the death in custody of any normal prisoner.

The planning of the route, the organisation of the motorcade, the lack of proper supervision of Dealey Plaza, the examination/Burke and Hare antics at Parkland, Oswalds arrest, Oswald's treatment and the procedural mishaps, and obviously Ruby's opportunity.

It's hard to argue with someone who is willing to put all the pieces of that messed up jigsaw of ineptitude in a box labeled "Coincidence" so thank you all for giving me a bit more meat to put on the bones.

 

[Joe Bauer]

On 4/28/2019 at 1:25 AM, Steve Thomas said:

1376-013.gif

The last paragraph on this page says it all about Will Fritz and the DPD and their complete and outrageous failure in their handling of Oswald's interrogation and his transfer security.

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

5 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Fantastic! Thank you so much guys, that's all really helpful.

One of the arguments I often have with a friend of mine who is very certain the lone gunman story is exactly as they wanted us to think it is, is not so much the evidence of conspiracy, it's the absence of normality in pretty much everything to with what immediately happened before, during and after the assassination by people who should have known better, and who would have been hauled over the coals if they had behaved the way they did and their mistakes had led to the death in custody of any normal prisoner.

The planning of the route, the organisation of the motorcade, the lack of proper supervision of Dealey Plaza, the examination/Burke and Hare antics at Parkland, Oswalds arrest, Oswald's treatment and the procedural mishaps, and obviously Ruby's opportunity.

 

 

Exactly.

No tape recorder present or available?  No stenographer? Subjected Oswald to be thrown into a crush of chaotic yelling press just to move him room to room? Interrogation room was the size of break room with anyone able to see the characters inside through the window?

Oswald's security handlers face bright lights no matter how far back as they come within feet of another frantic crush of press in the basement ... etc., etc. etc., etc.

T. Tomlinson, you are so right:

"One of the arguments I often have with a friend of mine who is very certain the lone gunman story is exactly as they wanted us to think it is, is not so much the evidence of conspiracy, it's the absence of normality in pretty much everything to with what immediately happened before, during and after the assassination by people who should have known better, and who would have been hauled over the coals if they had behaved the way they did and their mistakes had led to the death in custody of any normal prisoner."

By far, the most society damaging failure of security of a criminal suspect in America's history!

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Joe,

My bet is that the man the world knows as “Lee Harvey Oswald” at some point during his interrogations began to realize how much weight was behind his frame-up. At that point, he surely began spilling the beans.   He may have, considering his probable intel training, started talking quietly, perhaps just to Fritz or someone like him… but before he was killed he was surely saying that he was a trained intelligence operative of some kind and had been following strict instructions about where to be and when for weeks, and especially on Nov 22, 1963.  And that’s when the tape recordings or Dictabelt recordings or whatever was used suddenly disappeared, gathered up and swallowed up by someone whose name I’ll bet we never heard.

Portable recording equipment was reasonably sophisticated in 1963. I'm old enough to remember. Is it conceivable that Oswald wasn’t recorded?  The question I’ve always had was how many of the people sitting in during the interrogations were aware of the recordings and therefore had to keep their mouths shut for year after year.