EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Kowalski]

14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Megathanks for this, John.  Subproject 103 is completely new to me, although most of us are surely familiar with the general outlines of the Agency’s infamous MK-ULTRA project.  The information in the paragraph you quoted is enough to provoke much more searching and researching.  I’ll be spending some more time with this over the next few months.  If you have any more information on Subproject 103, please post it if you can.  Does Mr. Ross’s book have any other information on experiments with children?

Thanks again!

I neglected, by the way, in my previous post to provide a link to the current write-up describing Harvey Oswald and Lee Oswald during three consecutive semesters in middle schools.  The evidence strikes me as simply overwhelming. It’s still a work in progress, but it can be read here:

Lee and Harvey in Three Consecutive School Semesters

Jim you’re very welcome.

Here is another quoted form the same book. It demonstrates that experiments were been conducted on children in the 1930s by G.H. Estabrooks. If Estabrooks or other researchers were still conducting experiments on children in orphanages after the war ended, and if Harvey was placed in one after WWII, then it is possible that one of these experiments could have been, as John Armstrong suggests, the Oswald project.

Pg. 163: “Dr. Estabrooks did experiments on children. These were conducted at Rome State School in Rome, New York, with the approval of the Superintendent in a letter dated December 19, 1935. Estabrooks also did experiments on children at St. John’s Orphan Asylum and the House of the Good Shepherd, run by the Utica Community Chest, in Utica, New York. The Director of the Utica Community Chest, A.J. Derbyshire told Dr (sic) Estabrooks in a letter dated December 7, 1935 that he could supply fifty children age 9 to 12. This was to be facilitated by a Sister Callista.”

John

 

 

[Kirk Ross]

3 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Here is another quoted form the same book. It demonstrates that experiments were been conducted on children in the 1930s by G.H. Estabrooks.

You are not the first to speculate on the possible connection between Oswald and Estabrooks.  H. P. Albarelli, Jr speculates without much/any proof about a connection between them in "A Secret Order". Estabrooks is in the index along with other characters well known in this context.

[John Kowalski]

6 minutes ago, Kirk Ross said:

You are not the first to speculate on the possible connection between Oswald and Estabrooks.  H. P. Albarelli, Jr speculates without much/any proof about a connection between them in "A Secret Order". Estabrooks is in the index along with other characters well known in this context.

Abirelli's book also mentions that Lawrence Kubie and George Hunter White doing experiments at New Jersey's Bordertown Youth Reformatory but does not provide a source. Am sure that there is more documentation available on experiments on children at orphanages after WWII. In it, there may be some clues about Armstrong's theories.

Do you agree with Armstrong's speculation regarding Harvey's origins?

 

[Jim Hargrove]

21 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim you’re very welcome.

Here is another quoted form the same book. It demonstrates that experiments were been conducted on children in the 1930s by G.H. Estabrooks. If Estabrooks or other researchers were still conducting experiments on children in orphanages after the war ended, and if Harvey was placed in one after WWII, then it is possible that one of these experiments could have been, as John Armstrong suggests, the Oswald project.

Pg. 163: “Dr. Estabrooks did experiments on children. These were conducted at Rome State School in Rome, New York, with the approval of the Superintendent in a letter dated December 19, 1935. Estabrooks also did experiments on children at St. John’s Orphan Asylum and the House of the Good Shepherd, run by the Utica Community Chest, in Utica, New York. The Director of the Utica Community Chest, A.J. Derbyshire told Dr (sic) Estabrooks in a letter dated December 7, 1935 that he could supply fifty children age 9 to 12. This was to be facilitated by a Sister Callista.”

John

John,

With limited free time recently, this morning I found a few minutes to do a net search of one sentence you quoted above from p. 163 of Dr. Ross’s book:

“Dr. Estabrooks did experiments on children.”

The results were substantial.  On Google, there were pages and pages of hits.  On DuckDuckGo (a privacy oriented search engine), there were also scores and perhaps hundreds of links to the direct quote.  Interestingly, on DuckDuckGo the post above by John Kowalski was the second entry on page 1, suggesting this website is highly ranked by the search engine, or that most of the other references to Dr. Ross’s words were ranked significantly lower than the Ed Forum, or both.

The third result on DuckDuckGo was a link to this web page: It is a pdf file to a lengthy article by Dr. Ross which begins with the following summary:

In this summary of Bluebird, Dr. Ross describes unethical experiments conducted by psychiatrists to create amnesia, new identities, hypnotic access codes, and new memories in the minds of experimental subjects. His research is based on 15,000 pages of documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. Dr. Ross is a past president of the International Society for the Study of Dissociation. Please help to spread the word.

I have no idea how accurate the lengthy article is, but it is extensively footnoted with often clickable links to things such as peer-reviewed journals and CIA docs.  To give an example of just how shocking some of this material is, here are two brief excerpts:

As was true of mind control and biological weapon research, radiation research experiments were conducted on children and unwitting civilians. In 1961, researchers at Harvard Medical School, Massachusetts General Hospital, and Boston University School of Medicine gave radioactive iodine to seventy retarded children at Wrentham State School. At Fernald School, MIT gave radioactive substances to children by putting it in their food. No risks of radioactivity were mentioned in the consent form signed by the parents. The consent form stated that the purpose of the experiments was "helping to improve the nutrition of our children." P. 15, 18

AND

Army doctors were actively involved in LSD testing at least until the late 1970's. Subjects of LSD experiments included children as young as five years old, and brain electrodes were implanted in children as young as 11 years of age. Four of the CIA's MKULTRA Subprojects were on children. The mind control doctors included Presidents of the American Psychiatric Association and psychiatrists who received full-page obituaries in the American Journal of Psychiatry. Responsibility for the unethical experimentation lies first with the individual doctors, but also collectively with the medical profession and with academia as a whole. P. 21

These shocking allegations need a whole lot more scrutiny, and I intend to look into this subject much more as time permits.  Again, thanks to John Kowalski for bringing this up.

[John Kowalski]

Jim:

I hope that this info may be of help in the search for Harvey's origin.

[Jim Hargrove]

I’ve spent less than an hour doing online research about MK-ULTRA and children, and the floodgates have already opened.

Hardly a hotbed of conspiracy theories, Newsweek magazine last year published published an article entitled, MORE THAN 4,000 NEW MKULTRA DOCUMENTS REQUESTED FROM CIA AFTER CROWDFUNDING CAMPAIGN.

Here is the fourth paragraph in the article (emphasis added by me):

Project MKUltra was an illegal program of human experimentation undertaken by the CIA to discover methods, both pharmacological and psychological, for controlling the human mind, particularly in interrogation settings. Amphetamines, MDMA, scopolamine, cannabis, salvia, sodium pentothal, psilocybin and LSD were administered to thousands of unsuspecting people, throughout the United States and Canada. Others were subject to sensory deprivation, psychological abuse and rape, including the sexual abuse of children.

Here’s another one from History.com entitled THE CIA'S APPALLING HUMAN EXPERIMENTS WITH MIND CONTROL.

From mentally-impaired boys at a state school, to American soldiers, to “sexual psychopaths” at a state hospital, MK-Ultra’s programs often preyed on the most vulnerable members of society.

The list of hits for “MK-ULTRA and children” appears to go on… and on.  There are even suggestions in a number of well-known periodicals that the hit series “Stranger Things,” which followed a group of kids placed in bizarre sci-fi settings, was based on the CIA’s MK-ULTRA and Stargate projects.  There’s a pretty good write-up here in Rolling Stone magazine.

I’m utterly astonished at how many references there are to MK-ULTRA and children, and I’ve researched this for less than an hour!!!

Edited November 20, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[John Kowalski]

Yes there are many references to children and experiments, now we have to find one that involved Lee and Harvey Oswald.

 

[John Kowalski]

Jim:

Have you or John researched Harvey's mother's origin? He referred to Judge Tunheim and an AARB document that stated that an M.Oswald was somehow connected to Nazis in New Jersey in 1941. Not sure if she was spying on them but if she was this would be evidence that she was connected to intelligence services. Contacted Tunheim's office about his AARB documents and they confirmed that he has submitted everything to NARA.

Jean Stafford's stated in her book A Mother in History that Marguerite Oswald's accent was from New York or New Jersey. She also stated that she thought that Marguerite may have taken elocution lessons. If she did take them to improve how she spoke, then why would she do this? Could she have emigrated from Europe and was attempting to change her accent to an American one?

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Have you or John researched Harvey's mother's origin? He referred to Judge Tunheim and an AARB document that stated that an M.Oswald was somehow connected to Nazis in New Jersey in 1941. Not sure if she was spying on them but if she was this would be evidence that she was connected to intelligence services. Contacted Tunheim's office about his AARB documents and they confirmed that he has submitted everything to NARA.

Jean Stafford's stated in her book A Mother in History that Marguerite Oswald's accent was from New York or New Jersey. She also stated that she thought that Marguerite may have taken elocution lessons. If she did take them to improve how she spoke, then why would she do this? Could she have emigrated from Europe and was attempting to change her accent to an American one?

John,

I, too, read Jean Stafford's book and was struck by precisely the same things: 

Consider this odd paragraph:

 

“Generally dropping the final “g’s” of gerunds in a relaxed, rustic way, she spoke in the accent and the cadences of that part of New Orleans to which she was native, an accent that my late husband, A. J. Libeling, once described as “hard to distinguish from the accent of Hoboken, Jersey City, and Astoria, Long Island, where the Al Smith inflection, extinct in Manhattan, has taken refuge.” “point” becomes “pernt,” and, conversely, “person” becomes “poison.”

 

 

I think Stanford was suspicious of “Marguerite,” and found a way to alert her savviest readers that something was amiss. 

(NJ or NY, not NOLA.)

 

From page four:

 

“ . . . But at all times a central intelligence was at the controls, regulating the pitch and volume as she entered the successive roles of mother, citizen, widow, public figure. There was a suggestion of elocution lessons, nearly forgotten but learned well, long ago; and there was more than a suggestion of rehearsal and past performance - she spoke almost always in complete sentences, she was never visibly caught off guard.”

 

I think Jean Stanford was trying to tell us something, something that I have suspected for a long time: “Marguerite’s” background was not what she pretended it was.

 

Here is "Marguerite Oswald" speaking about her "son": 

 

 

 

 

 

[John Kowalski]

Paul:

Marguerite is very well spoken and yes, Stafford may have been hinting about something that she would not write about in her book.

John mentioned a trip that Marguerite, Edwin and Lee took to Boston in September 1945. Probably no shortage of places in or near Boston where Lee could have been introduced to  experiments or an espionage program.

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by John Kowalski

[John Butler]

Wow!  I'm always learning something new on the Forum.  I have never listened to a recording of Marguerite Oswald.  I'm astounded.  She does not have a deep south accent such as one will find in New Orleans.  She doesn't even have an southern accent such as one would find in Texas.  Or, in a relatively northern state such as Kentucky. 

I really don't fully hear New Jersey or New York in her accent.  I lived in that area for a year.  But, I do hear something northern.  More than likely it is New Jersey or New York modified by decades in the south.  I occasionally hear something southern sounding.  Her language usage seems to be practiced but, could be a reflection of schooling at an earlier the time in New Orleans.  Correct diction I think was the term.

Now IMO, Harvey and short Marguerite are not from the south.  She (an alleged Claverie) can't be from a French, Southern, New Orleans family.  If she really is from New Orleans the only way she could beat that kind of accent would be through years of study and practice.  It can be done.  But, why?   

 

   

Edited November 21, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Have you or John researched Harvey's mother's origin? He referred to Judge Tunheim and an AARB document that stated that an M.Oswald was somehow connected to Nazis in New Jersey in 1941. Not sure if she was spying on them but if she was this would be evidence that she was connected to intelligence services. Contacted Tunheim's office about his AARB documents and they confirmed that he has submitted everything to NARA.

Jean Stafford's stated in her book A Mother in History that Marguerite Oswald's accent was from New York or New Jersey. She also stated that she thought that Marguerite may have taken elocution lessons. If she did take them to improve how she spoke, then why would she do this? Could she have emigrated from Europe and was attempting to change her accent to an American one?

From Harvey and Lee:

In January 1953 the HUAC in New York made reference to a "Mrs. M. Oswald" in a CIA Office of Security file. The file contained references to 1941, Nazi's, and New Jersey. Judge John Tunheim, of the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB ), wrote to Henry Hyde in an attempt to get the HUAC files on Lee and Marguerite Oswald re­leased, but his request was refused. [H&L p. 51]

John A. has shown several times that classic Marguerite knew almost nothing about her "son."

You're probably already familiar with this, and it is surely a long shot, but here's an FBI report about an anonymous phone call that might shed light on Harvey's father and uncle.  

The day after the assassination Mrs. Jack Tippit, of Westport, Connecticut was telephoned by an unidentified woman. This woman said she personally knew Oswald's father and uncle in New York City, who were from Hungary, promoted communism and lived at 77th and 2nd Avenue in Yorkville (NYC). This woman asked Mrs. Tippit to relay her information to Dallas authorities. This woman may have thought Oswald's relatives were communists, but in reality they were most likely working undercover for our government.

--John Armstrong,
University of Minnesota, 1999

The following FBI document, an internal teletype from 11/30/63, was withheld from public view for three decades.

URGENT 11-30-63 7-37 PM EST MB
TO DIRECTOR, AND SACS DALLAS AND NEW YORK
FROM SAC, NEW HAVEN /100-18158/
NEW YORK VIA WASHINGTON
LEE HARVEY OSWALD, IS - R
ON NOV. THIRTY INSTANT, JACK D. TIPPIT, SELF EMPLOYED
CARTOONIST FOR NATIONAL MAGAZINES AND WIFE, ONE SIX FOUR
NEW TOWN TURNPIKE, WESTPORT, CONN., ADVISED AS FOLLOWS. AT
APPROXIMATELY ELEVEN THIRTY AM ON INSTANT DATE MRS. TIPPIT
RECEIVED A TELEPHONE CALL FROM UNKNOWN WOMAN WHO ASKED IF
MR. TIPPIT WAS A POLICEMAN AND IF HE WAS RELATED TO THE POLICE-
MAN TIPPIT WHO WAS SHOT IN DALLAS. MRS. TIPPIT REPLIED HER
HUSBAND WAS NOT A POLICEMAN, WAS DISTANTLY RELATED TO OFFICER
TIPPIT AND ASKED IDENTITY OF CALLER. ON ANOTHER EXTENSION
JACK TIPPIT LISTENED TO BALANCE OF PHONE CALL. THE WOMAN SAID
SHE COULD NOT GIVE HER NAME AS SHE WAS AFRAID OF BEING KILLED,
THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE
CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED AS SHE WAS IN FEAR OF HER
END PAGE ONE

PAGE TWO:

LIFE. THE WOMAN REQUESTED THAT NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS
ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE
WOULD BE KILLED.
THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.
THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW. WHEN MRS. TIPPIT TRIED TO FIND OUT WHOSE
BROTHER IN LAW THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW.
THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS
GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS. THE WOMAN SAID
SOMETHING ABOUT WEINSTOCK THE EDITOR OF QUOTE WOMAN-S WORLD
UNQUOTE BUT DID NOT GIVE FURTHER DETAILS.. THE WOMAN SAID THE
END PAGE TWO

PAGE THREE:

GROUP IN NEW YORK PLANS TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, THAT OF
COURSE THEY WOULD DENY THIS BUT SHE KNEW IT TO BE TRUE.
SHE THEN HUNG UP ABRUPTLY. THE WOMAN NEVER GAVE ANY REASON
FOR HER CALL WHICH SOUNDED LOCAL. MRS. TIPPIT THOUGHT THE
WOMAN HAD AN AUSTRIAN OR GERMAN ACCENT WHILE MR. TIPPIT
BELIEVED IT WAS SPANISH. BOTH FELT THE WOMAN SOUNDED LIKE
A MATURE ADULT AND DID NOT HAVE A YOUTHFUL VOICE.
MR. TIPPIT EXPLAINED WOMAN MAY HAVE OBTAINED HIS IDENTITY
FROM AN ARTICLE ON PAGE ONE OF NORWALK, CONN. QUOTE HOUR
UNQUOTE FOR NOVEMBER TWENTYFIVE LAST, WHICH STATED THAT WE MAY
BE A DISTANT RELATIVE OF THE DALLAS POLICEMAN. TIPPIT SAID
ARTICLE RESULTED FROM TELEPHONE CALL FROM REPORTER WHO WAS
CHECKING ALL TIPPITS IN LOCAL TELEPHONE DIRECTORIES.
BUREAU REQUESTED TO COORDINATE ABOVE WITH ANY OTHER
INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF PERTINENT AS NEW HAVEN HAS NO
KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESIDENCE AND ASSOCIATES OF OSWALD-S FATHER
AND UNCLE.

END AND ACK PLS
7-45 PM OK FBI WA LLD FOR RELAY
6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL
TU PLSDISC M
CC-MR_ROSEN

 See a reproduction of the actual document above (HSCA, Record No. 1801003110299, Agency File No. 105-82555-186).

[John Kowalski]

Have read the story about the telephone call. Did some research on Weinstock and his obituary is below. Obituary says he was a communist but then again many members of the communist party were working for the FBI.

https://archive.org/details/louisweinstockobituary

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

15 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Have read the story about the telephone call. Did some research on Weinstock and his obituary is below. Obituary says he was a communist but then again many members of the communist party were working for the FBI.

https://archive.org/details/louisweinstockobituary

 

 

Pursuant to House Resolution 220 of 1953, the Investigation of Communist Propaganda Report from the Select Committee on Communist Activities in the United States (Hamilton Fish, Chair) says on page 14 that "Emil Gardos" was the organizer for the Communist Party's district number 3, headquartered in Philadelphia. District 3 included Washington D.C.; Delaware; eastern Pennsylvania; Maryland; and western New Jersey.

 https://books.google.com/books?id=50HgZ7Q9HdwC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=emile+gardos+wisconsin+communist&source=bl&ots=ZDY_DVyw9g&sig=ACfU3U1or7Qu0rl0X9b4oDbe62L7HuTpLw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN2eLYyIDmAhUOWq0KHQmQCqYQ6AEwBnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=emile%20gardos%20wisconsin%20communist&f=false

 

Further, here on top of page four of the 1934 publication "New Masses" is an article defending Emil Gardos "Communist Party member and a leader in a number of strikes" (and a native of and subject to deportation to "fascist" Hungary after having his citizenship revoked!) against what the writer believed were unfair charges. 

Whether or not the mysterious caller to Mrs. Tippit was correct in her belief that "Oswald" was biologically related to this man, there is no doubt that the mysterious woman caller had this Emil Gardos in mind. Gardos did indeed spend time in New York City, he was absolutely a prominent Communist activist and he certainly was Hungarian.

Could Gardos have been co-opted after 1934 by the FBI as a source or an informant?

Possibly, although he may have been deported briefly later, but not until sometime after 1940. (Whether he actually ever left the country at any point is not clear. Perhaps someone here can dig that out.)

Why do I say that? Because he and his wife and his son (born in 1939) were all listed in the U.S. Census of 1940, living in Ironwood Michigan.

https://www.ancestry.com/1940-census/usa/Michigan/Emil-Gardos_2xgn7w

Did Gardos have any connection, biological or not, to "Oswald" (Harvey)?

Well, certainly the mysterious woman caller  believed so, but whether she was completely correct needs much more research.

https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/pubs/new-masses/1934/v10n11-mar-13-1934-NM.pdf

It seems to me that the mysterious woman caller who mentioned "Kardos" (as recorded by the FBI) may have been mistaken. We know Emil Gardos was the person to whom she referred, and we know that Emil Gardos (a native Hungarian Communist Jew) had a son (John) born in 1939 making him the same age (ostensibly) as "Oswald" so a case of mistaken identity is plausible, but not proven. 

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Did Gardos have any connection, biological or not, to "Oswald" (Harvey)?

Well, certainly the mysterious woman caller  believed so, but whether she was completely correct needs much more research.

https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/pubs/new-masses/1934/v10n11-mar-13-1934-NM.pdf

It seems to me that the mysterious woman caller who mentioned "Kardos" (as recorded by the FBI) may have been mistaken. We know Emil Gardos was the person to whom she referred, and we know that Emil Gardos (a native Hungarian Communist Jew) had a son (John) born in 1939 making him the same age (ostensibly) as "Oswald" so a case of mistaken identity is plausible, but not proven. 

 

Fascinating!

Megathanks for the “Emil Gardos” clarification.  This is news to me.  The “Woman’s World” magazine referred to in the FBI report was surely the communist “Worker’s World.”  Gardos was said to be a magazine editor as well. 

The “New Masses” article Paul linked mentioned that Gardos had run for Congress in Wisconsin, and I found this about him in the Milwaukee Journal, Mar 20, 1949, p. 3: