EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Kowalski]

On 12/1/2019 at 9:48 PM, John Butler said:

Jim,

The fees are not significant.  They can be done on a montly basis.  I'm just not optimistic.  Let me do further research and I might give it a try.

Did you know that many libraries and archives have free ancestry subscriptions? I access it for free at Library and Archives Canada and it includes the whole database.

 

 

[John Butler]

It just struck me that we haven't looked at the FBI report on the Tippit call as closely as one should.  The mysterious caller said she:

"THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE
CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED AS SHE WAS IN FEAR OF HER
END PAGE ONE

PAGE TWO:

LIFE"

Coming here refers to where the Tippit's lived in New Haven, Conn. from New York, NY.  What kind of trip would that have been and how much effort would that take.  The internet info below shows that it was not an insignificant thing that the mysterious caller did to travel from New York, NY to New Haven, CONN.  It is traveling by train or auto some 80 miles in November cold of the north.  This woman, the mysterious caller, felt she had to tell someone about what she knew. 

She clearly understood how dangerous it was to reveal this kind of information.  Lee Harvey Oswald had died and she thought others would follow, herself included if she was exposed.  By linking what she knew to the J. D. Tippit shooting and telling it to a relative of Officer Tippit she probably thought that would limit her exposure. 

She said "THE WOMAN REQUESTED THAT NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE WOULD BE KILLED."  She probably didn't realize that the Tippits giving this information to the FBI may have had serious consequences.  Fortunately, the FBI decided to bury the information provided by he Tippits. 
 

[John Butler]

24 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Did you know that many libraries and archives have free ancestry subscriptions? I access it for free at Library and Archives Canada and it includes the whole database.

 

 

John K,

I really haven't given that a thought thinking computer research was much easier.  Back in the day, early 1980s to late 1990s,  when I was doing genealogical research in a big way research at libraries, archives, etc was fairly hard to do.  Sitting in front of the computer was much easier.  I really have not done any family history research for about 20 years and am not aware of possible improvements at these types of institutions.  The old way of library or archive personnel help, looking in indexes, filing cabinets, and microfilm was difficult and time consuming.

I think the computer searching is still good.  Look at the significant data we've pulled up in a short period of time.   

Edited December 9, 2019 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

On 12/3/2019 at 9:42 PM, John Butler said:

In Canada, the 1946 Kellock–Taschereau Commission investigated espionage after top secret documents concerning RDX, radar and other weapons were handed over to the Soviets by a domestic spy-ring.^[14]

This is off topic but the Kellock-Tashereau Commission was created after Soviet cipher-clerk, Igor Gouzenko, who was employed at the Soviet embassy in Ottawa defected in 1945. He left the embassy with 109 documents that proved that there was a Soviet spy ring operating in Canada, the US and Great Britain. Many arrests followed his defection. There is info about him on the web and I also wrote a story about him that was published in a community newspaper in Ottawa where Gouzenko was living with his wife and child when he defected. Contacted the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, which is Canada's CIA, many years ago and asked if I could see the documents and as I recall they either said no or denied having them, but I had to try. Link to my story is below. There was a film made about Gouzenko's defection called The Iron Curtain.

https://archive.org/details/gouzenko

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by John Kowalski

[John Kowalski]

On 12/8/2019 at 12:04 PM, John Butler said:

The Ramaz School has a Contact Us section on their website.  I don't know whether asking them anything about John Gardos would result in them saying anything.

I will contact them and ask general questions about student lists and yearbooks but will not mention Gardos.

[John Kowalski]

On 12/5/2019 at 9:44 AM, John Butler said:

The 2nd Red Scare began in Canada in 1946:

"In Canada, the 1946 Kellock–Taschereau Commission investigated espionage after top secret documents concerning RDX, radar and other weapons were handed over to the Soviets by a domestic spy-ring."

 And, headed south.  President Truman:

"In March 1947, President Harry S. Truman signed Executive Order 9835, creating the "Federal Employees Loyalty Program" establishing political-loyalty review boards who determined the "Americanism" of Federal Government employees, and requiring that all federal employees to take an oath of loyalty to the United States government. It then recommended termination of those who had confessed to spying for the Soviet Union, as well as some suspected of being "Un-American".

John B:

The Kellock-Taschereau Commission recommended that all people working for the Canadian government be required to have a security clearance. The government implemented this policy and everyone now has to have a security clearance done by CSIS.

[John Kowalski]

43 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I really haven't given that a thought thinking computer research was much easier.  Back in the day, early 1980s to late 1990s,  when I was doing genealogical research in a big way research at libraries, archives, etc was fairly hard to do.  Sitting in front of the computer was much easier. 

John B:

i agree. Began doing research just before the internet access was available. Would visit the local Mormon church and order documents from their microfilm records. Also wrote many letters that took so long to get a response. Like the computer much better and it has made genealogical and historical research so much easier.

[John Kowalski]

On 12/6/2019 at 9:57 AM, John Butler said:

Secondly, if possible, check the University of Wisconsin, Madison for the Fred Blair papers.  Box Number 5 has correspondence between Fred, Emil, and Grace.  I believe this covers the years in question.  This might be helpful.

It he reviews these papers maybe they can be uploaded to this forum so we can review them. Correspondence can provide many new leads and names of people previously unknown.

[Jim Hargrove]

Question for John Kowalski....

Can you remind me why you suspect John Gardos might have attended the Ramaz School if and when he lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?  Today, at least, it appears to be a Jewish-oriented private school.

To everyone, I plan to send the following question to the research department of the New York Public Library and ask how much it would cost to research this query:

Can you tell me what public elementary school a child would have attended in 1946 if he was born in 1939 and lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?

Any suggestions for improvement would be appreciated.

[John Butler]

16 hours ago, John Butler said:

It just struck me that we haven't looked at the FBI report on the Tippit call as closely as one should.  The mysterious caller said she:

"THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE
CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED AS SHE WAS IN FEAR OF HER
END PAGE ONE

PAGE TWO:

LIFE"

Coming here refers to where the Tippit's lived in New Haven, Conn. from New York, NY.  What kind of trip would that have been and how much effort would that take.  The internet info below shows that it was not an insignificant thing that the mysterious caller did to travel from New York, NY to New Haven, CONN.  It is traveling by train or auto some 80 miles in November cold of the north.  This woman, the mysterious caller, felt she had to tell someone about what she knew. 

She clearly understood how dangerous it was to reveal this kind of information.  Lee Harvey Oswald had died and she thought others would follow, herself included if she was exposed.  By linking what she knew to the J. D. Tippit shooting and telling it to a relative of Officer Tippit she probably thought that would limit her exposure. 

She said "THE WOMAN REQUESTED THAT NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE WOULD BE KILLED."  She probably didn't realize that the Tippits giving this information to the FBI may have had serious consequences.  Fortunately, the FBI decided to bury the information provided by he Tippits. 
 

The behavior of the mysterious caller may indicate she thought she was under surveillance by some government agency involved with surveying communists,  or other group perhaps communist.  And, that agency or group was capable of anything including murder.  Sounds more like the CIA rather than the FBI.  Although, I wonder.

I believe this adds additional credibility to the Tippit Call.  Along with the FBI's behavior strongly suggests this was not a crank call. 

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Question for John Kowalski....

Can you remind me why you suspect John Gardos might have attended the Ramaz School if and when he lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?  Today, at least, it appears to be a Jewish-oriented private school.

To everyone, I plan to send the following question to the research department of the New York Public Library and ask how much it would cost to research this query:

Can you tell me what public elementary school a child would have attended in 1946 if he was born in 1939 and lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?

Any suggestions for improvement would be appreciated.

PS 151 school is close to the Gardos' address:

Today the school is for pre-school to the 5th grade.  It looks like a building that goes back to  1945, but was it a school at that time.

This is info on the history of PS 151:

"PS 151 Yorkville Community School is a warm school with strong leadership, a cohesive staff, and lots of parent involvement. In a city thats divided by race and class, the school has a healthy mix of children who live in luxury high-rise buildings, expensive brownstones, modest five-floor walk-ups and public housing.

The vibe throughout the school is cheery and laid-back. Parents pick kindergartners up from their classrooms, easing the transition to big-kid school. Students address teachers and staff by their first names. (The principal is called Miss Samantha.) Large classrooms with high ceilings in the 100-year-old building are arranged so kids have lots of opportunities to move around. There are colorful rugs for class-wide gatherings, low tables for group work and cozy corners for quiet reading. There is a tiny gym, and the cafeteria doubles as an auditorium, but the building is pleasant despite these limitations"

There is another candidate for being close to John Gardos which is PS 527.  As soon as I find where I put that info I will post it.

[John Butler]

Jim,

It might be a good idea to also check for the year 1945 when John Gardos was nearly 6 or already 6 depending on this birthday.  He might have been eligible to go to the 1st grade in 1945.

Schools were usually close to where someone lived in NYC due to a large population in fairly small areas.  Another school close to 217 East 86th Street, Yorkville, NYC is PS 527 at 323 East 91st Street NYC.

This school, PS 527, appears to be in the same age range as PS 151.

This is a new school in an old building.  This is based on the following:

keep in mind that the zone for the school goes from 1st to 3rd, starts on 85th street. so not all of it is way east and up. 2-2-2016 12:09pm

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• Where is that school? 2-2-2016 11:59am
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• I don't know that one. 2-2-2016 12:00pm
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• I'm on the UES for yrs. where is that? 2-2-2016 12:01pm +1 like
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  • ditto, maybe it's new? 2-2-2016 12:01pm
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    • 91st between 1st & 2nd. next door to east side middle. 2-2-2016 12:02pm
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      • In the old Our Lady of Counsel school building 2-2-2016 12:03pm
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• Isn't that near the marine transfer station? 2-2-2016 12:01pm
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  • it's on top of it 2-2-2016 12:02pm

And,

Our Lady of Good Counsel School, OLGC

 

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https://www.olgcschool.org/

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OLGC Our Lady of Good Counsel Catholic School, established in 1957, is a parish elementary and middle school with approximately 400 students in ...

 

This may not have been a school in 1945.

Edited December 10, 2019 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

On 12/7/2019 at 3:22 PM, John Butler said:

Paul,

The school records for John Gardos would solve this problem.  What is need is records from the 1st and 2nd grade from a school in Yorkville such as the Ramaz school or some other.  If you could find any other school record that would be important.  If you found 3rd and 4th grade records there in Yorkville, then that would pretty much end the research.

The Ramaz school is intriguing.  Somewhere, Harvey Oswald got the notion he should be an intellectual reading books that people don't normally read.  Going to the opera, etc.  He could have gotten this mind set from his original parents or from a school.  You say the Ramaz school was known for academic excellence.  It was close by. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Question for John Kowalski....

Can you remind me why you suspect John Gardos might have attended the Ramaz School if and when he lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?  Today, at least, it appears to be a Jewish-oriented private school.

To everyone, I plan to send the following question to the research department of the New York Public Library and ask how much it would cost to research this query:

Can you tell me what public elementary school a child would have attended in 1946 if he was born in 1939 and lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?

Any suggestions for improvement would be appreciated.

Jim:

Am not suspicious of Ramaz but John B suggested that Harvey may have attend this school and this is why I suggested locating their yearbooks or ask for a student list.  You make a good point about the Gardos being communist would most likely not send their kid to a religious school but I sent them an email yesterday asking for this info anyways. If they refuse to provide info about their students they may provide guidelines for requesting this info from a school.

Edited December 10, 2019 by John Kowalski

[John Kowalski]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Question for John Kowalski....

Can you remind me why you suspect John Gardos might have attended the Ramaz School if and when he lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?  Today, at least, it appears to be a Jewish-oriented private school.

To everyone, I plan to send the following question to the research department of the New York Public Library and ask how much it would cost to research this query:

Can you tell me what public elementary school a child would have attended in 1946 if he was born in 1939 and lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?

Any suggestions for improvement would be appreciated.

Jim:

No need for improvement.

[Joe Bauer]

I have been going through earlier posts looking for information regarding this letter from a lady in New York.

I can't find the original one.

Could someone re-post the story of the letter and it's contents again?