EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Guest]

Regarding item 4.

 

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

[Jim Hargrove]

That's true.  As I wrote on Sept. 7 of this year on the "Marita Lorenz Obituary" thread:

Quote

 

David.... about this, John A. wrote:

NOTE: According to Marita, CIA agent Frank Fiorini/Sturgis knew Lee Oswald ("Ozzie") in Florida and, after the assassination, tried repeatedly to link "Lee Harvey Oswald" with Castro. Fiorini/ Sturgis was definitely one of the conspirators.

Pressured by her attorney, and possibly threatened with charges of perjury, Marita Lorenz later recanted her testimony regarding the dates she saw Oswald in Florida. But what the HSCA still failed to understand was that Lee Harvey Oswald was never in Florida at any time from 1960-1963. [H&L p. 311]

But American-born Lee Harvey Oswald was.

 

 

[Guest]

On 9/24/2019 at 6:27 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

That simply isn't true.

By Dec. 19, 1963, the SAC in New Orleans was already confirming directly to J. Edgar Hoover himself that a man named Charles Pearson, who was office manager at Graham Paper Company, had stated that his friend Oscar W. Deslatte, assistant manager of truck sales at Bolton Ford, had been contacted by Oswald about buying trucks.  Worse yet, the whole process of investigating the incident was prompted by a phone call from none other than Carlos Bringieur, the man who pretended to fight and then debate on the radio with “Lee Harvey Oswald” in August 1963 in New Orleans.

The above facts were clearly acknowledged in my post, which you obviously read with the same level of care that any fundamentalist zealot typically devotes to anything that challenges his beliefs.  Don't try to one-up me on the facts, because you're going to lose that game.

Your version is somewhat conveniently skewed - Bringuier told John Rice of the Secret Service that Graham Paper office employee Mary Cusco had told him (or had told someone who told him) that her boss Charles Pearson had been told by his friend Oscar Deslatte that Oswald had "contacted" Deslatte about buying trucks.  Deslatte had previously told the FBI that Lee Harvey Oswald did not resemble the man who had contacted him.  So which sounds more likely to you - something got lost in the fourth-hand translation from Bringuier to Rice to the SAC Dallas, Deslatte blatantly lied to the FBI two days after the assassination, or the FBI agents fabricated the interview report?  Duh.

Hoover learned about the Bringuier call, which had taken place on December 9, when notified by the SAC Dallas on December 19, whereas Deslatte had contacted the FBI immediately, which led to his interview on November 25.  But no, according to H&L logic, the FBI knew nothing about the Bolton Ford incident until December 19, so the November 25 interview report was obviously backdated as well as fabricated.

The reality is, the H&L version of the Bolton Ford incident - i.e., what actually took place within the walls of Bolton Ford on January 20, 1961 - is completely at odds with what Deslatte told the FBI on November 25, 1963 and relies entirely on what Sewell, who was not even mentioned by Deslatte in 1963, told Garrison's investigators in 1967.

According to H&L logic, the FBI interview report is bogus.  Then why does it exist at all?  The FBI avoided Sewell like the plague - perhaps because Deslatte didn't even mention him, as the FBI interview report suggests?  Why didn't Sewell himself come forward when the FBI interviewed Deslatte if he knew as much as he told Garrison four years later - was it because he was threatened and intimidated or because he actually didn't know squat about the incident?  Why was the FBI not concerned when Sewell told his grand tale in connection with the Garrison investigation?  Why did the HSCA not show more interest in this "startling" incident?  Deslatte and Sewell were both still living and not elderly.

You have not addressed any of my questions, because you can't. 

If Erkle Shlerkel came out of the woodwork next month and announced he'd been working as a janitor at Bolton Ford on 1-20-61 and had witnessed an even "better" version of the events, that too would be worked seamlessly into the H&L narrative.

I don't understand what weird pleasure H&L zealots derive from their hobby, but H&L begins with a hypothesis more preposterous than a flat earth, attempts to overwhelm the audience with sloppy research and bogus facts, and immediately reverts to fundamentalist zealot defense mode when obvious errors are pointed out or the H&L gospel is challenged with logic and common sense.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

Re: the school records.  This has indeed been debated ad nauseam because I recall participating in the debate (as did Sandy, extensively).

My challenge at the time was:  If you think these records on their face show something inexplicably mysterious, why don't you contact the respective schools, school districts or state departments of education and see what they say?  My guess is that the "mystery" would immediately go poof - and that's what you fear.  The H&L game is to posit "mysteries" on the basis of documents that may appear inconsistent because you don't know enough about the subject matter to understand what they actually say, then to "solve" those mysteries with "Harvey" and "Lee."

But wait, let's assume for the sake of argument these documents actually do, on their face, show something inexplicably mysterious.  Let's even say they show what the H&L folks say they show, or at least that this is one viable interpretation.  Consistent with what Tracy has said above and what I have said repeatedly about logic and common sense, please explain in short sentences beginning "This makes sense because …",

1.  How allowing Harvey and Lee to attend different schools at the same time, or the same school at the same time, makes any sense at all even within the context of H&L.  What earthly purpose would that serve, and why would the H&L geniuses unnecessarily incur all the associated risks?

2.  How allowing these inexplicably mysterious documents to exist and find their way to the Warren Commission makes any sense at all even within the context of H&L.  After carefully manipulating the H&L operation for a decade or more, up to and including a Presidential assassination, the H&L geniuses couldn't control the junior high school records?  They could fabricate or alter literally every document that is inconvenient for the H&L thesis, but they couldn't control the junior high school records?  Why were these records allowed to exist or to see the light of day at all?

3.  How, if we assume that everything including these inexplicably mysterious documents has been fabricated or altered as David suggests, the documents make any sense even within the context of H&L.  If the H&L geniuses were going fabricate or alter documents, wouldn't they have made sure they weren't inexplicably mysterious?

Remember, be sure to phrase your answers "This makes sense because …."  "It doesn't have to make sense!!!" is not an acceptable response.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Good post Lance.

I have grown tired of playing the game with the H&L people. As I get older, I become more and more careful about what I spend time on. As you point out, these topics have been argued over and over. I guess the H&L people need the attention or something so they try and stir up a hornet's nest using the same tired arguments. They used to ask for explanations and myself or Greg Parker would provide links. They then insisted the linked websites did not exist. I have a partial LHO chronology and could provide a timeline for Japan, for example. But I already did  that at one point, so I am not going to do it again. I am too busy for their nonsense. The arguments and counter-arguments are out there, let those interested run a search and decide for themselves.

[Jim Hargrove]

Mr. Payette is clearly unable to explain the conflicting school records we have already presented, and so he changes the subject by demanding we do some homework and gather more school documents.  Although Mr. Armstrong has placed on YouTube numerous interviews with teachers and students who attended school with “Lee Harvey Oswald,” Mr. Payette clearly doesn’t understand that there are simply no verifiable, original school records for “Lee Harvey Oswald” at all.

Since he brought the subject up, perhaps Mr. Payette can explain to us why he is unconcerned that, within hours of the assassination, the school and early work records for “Lee Harvey Oswald” were confiscated by the FBI and promptly lost, replaced by b&w photocopies.  The confiscation of documents was usually done before there was even time to determine if their were other co-conspirators or if other government officials were targeted for assassination.

As ARRB staffer Joe Freeman discovered, “all the school and employment records I looked at in the Warren Commission Exhibit files at Archives II were copies, not originals.”

No doubt Mr. Payette has not the slightest interest about why the originals of all these original school records disappeared. Will he tell us that U.S. courts are as receptive to copies of documents as they are to originals? My suggestion is the originals disappeared because it is much easier to alter b&w copies than originals.  Would a judge not agree with me?

To borrow the phrase that Mr. Payette says he borrowed, “this makes sense because” two boys were sharing one identity, so that a Russian-speaking youth could adopt the identity of an American-born boy and travel to the Soviet Union on behalf of American Intel, where he would secretly understand the Russian language.  It was necessary for the impostor to have a life as similar as possible to the American he was mimicking.

What if, for example, a Soviet official questioned the Russian-speaking youth and asked a simple question, such as, “Say, Comrade, thees Beau-Re-Gard School you go to.  Where you eat lunch?  Basement? First floor?  Second floor?  Third?”   Real life experiences would have been the best way to ready a VERY young spy for these kinds of interrogations.

Since Mr. Payette clearly can’t explain the conflicting records we’ve already shown here, let’s go back to those disappearing originals.  Here, for just one example, is John’s description of what happened to the New York City school records for “Lee Harvey Oswald.”  Documents are below the book excerpt.  (I’m not going to bother to clean up the OCR scan errors):

After realizing the court and school records contained numerous contradictions,
I began assembling and sorting through all of the New York records I could find. The
Warren Commission published a complete set of Oswald's elementary school records
from Fort Worth, including grade cards, enrollment forms, cumulative records, atten­-
dance records, and interviews with many students, neighbors, and teachers. The War­-
ren Commission also published numerous photographs of Oswald in grade school as well
as a class photograph.

As I searched the Warren Volumes looking for New York records and photo­-
graphs I was surprised to find that there were no grade cards, no enrollment forms, and
no transcripts from his previous school in Ft Worth (Ridglea West Elementary). I noticed
there were conflicting attendance records, no school photographs, no interviews of
Oswald's classmates, and only one interview of a teacher.

When I visited the National Archives in Adelphi, Maryland, I learned, as did the
Assassination Records Review Board in 1995, that there were no original school records
whatsoever-only copies of records. When original records disappear, and only copies re­-
main, there is a distinct possibility that the original records were altered and then de­-
stroyed. I decided to see if I could determine what happened to Oswald's original New
York school records.

The WC requested Oswald's original New York school records

As I began sorting through New York school and court records, I realized that
the Warren Commission may also have been aware of conflicting records. They asked
the FBI to obtain Oswald's original school and court records, but the Bureau did not
comply. The Commission then wrote to New York Mayor Robert Wagner and asked his
office for help in .obtaining Oswald's original school records.

Mayor Wagner's office responded to the Commission's request by enclosing
copies of Oswald's New York school records and advising that the original court records
had been turned over to SA John Malone personally by Judge Florence Kelley.
53-09

It appeared the original records disappeared while in SA Malone's custody, so I decided
to place all available documentation and correspondence in chronological order to see
if my thoughts were correct.

Oswald's school records disappeared while in FBI custody
Judge Florence Kelley was the Administrative Judge of the Family Court of the
State of New York in 1963, and the Oswald case file (#23979) was under her supervision.
After the assassination she conferred with superior court judges and together they de­-
cided the Oswald file would be given to the Special Agent in charge of the FBI's New
York office, John Malone.

On November 27, 1963 Judge Kelley allowed SAIC Malone to review the
Oswald file in her chambers and in her presence. She permitted him to take notes of
pertinent portions, but would not permit the file to be removed from her office or cop­-
ied. A few days later she conferred with the Presiding Justice of the Appellate Division,
Bernard Botein, and with his approval agreed to turn over all original court records in
possession of the Family Court to SAIC Malone.

On December 2, 1963 Judge Kelley personally gave the Oswald file to Malone
with the condition that it be transmitted immediately to the Warren Commission. Three
days later, on December 5, 1963, FBI SA Michael O'Rourke advised the Secret Service
the file had been sent to the WaTTen Commission. On December 10, eight days after Judge
Kelley turned her court file over to the FBI, an internal FBI memo relating to the Files
of Domestic Relations Court states, "rec'd by Assist Dir. John Malone 11/27-12/2." From
this memo and Judge Kelley's statement, it is clear that Judge Kelley gave the original
court file to SAIC Malone.

In preparation for the testimony of Marguerite Oswald in February 1964, the
Warren Commission requested Oswald's original New York school and court records
from Mayor Wagner of New York City. On February 4, Miss Bernice McCrae of the
Mayors office spoke with Judge Kelley, who advised that she had given the original
records to SAIC John Malone.

Miss McCrae then telephoned the FBI's New York Office. She asked if the
original records in the Oswald file had, in fact, been turned over to the Warren Commis­-
sion. Miss McCrae never received an answer. Later that afternoon she wrote a letter on
behalf of Mayor Wagner to Mr. Rankin of Warren Commission which stated, "I am at­-
taching to this letter copies of the school records .... Judge Florence Kelley informed me
she turned over all original records in the possession of the Family Court dealing with
the case of Lee Harvey Oswald to John F. Malone, Assistant Director in Charge of the
New York City office of the FBI."42 There is no evidence or documentation whatsoever that
Malone turned the original court file over to the Warren Commission.

On February 7, at 3:37 pm, FBI Inspector J. R. Malley telephoned the FBI's
New York office and spoke to the Assistant Special Agent in Charge, W. M. Alexander,
about the original court records. Malley advised that FBI headquarters in Washington
had no information that indicated the original documents had been received from New
York and he asked Alexander to check further.

At 3:45 pm Alexander telephoned Malley and advised that SAIC Malone. his
supervisor. had photographed the entire file and that copies of the file had been sent to
FBI headquarters in Washington. Alexander said there was no record that photographs
were sent to FBI headquarters, but that additional photographs of the file were available.
Malley then asked that two copies of the photographs be sent immediately to his atten­-
tion at FBI Headquarters in Washington.

There is no indication that Inspector Malley made any additional inquiries into
the fate of the original court files, which were last seen by Judge Kelley when she per­-
sonally handed them to SAIC John Malone. Whenever original records are destroyed and only
copies or photographs remain, it is probable that the original documents were altered and then
photocopied. [Harvey and Lee, pp. 62-63]

Here are some of the documents John studied to do the write-up above.

 

One Oswald had excellent attendance in the NYC schools; the other was so often truant that the whole operation was nearly exposed by the NYC court system.  The Russian-speaking kid and his caretaker “mother” fled to New Orleans shortly before a NYC court appearance was scheduled, where he was gradually re-introduced to the public school system as a part-time student. 

For the 8th Grade fall semester of the 1953/1954 school year,  one Oswald attended Public School for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total attendance of 78 days.
In the very same semester, the other Oswald attended Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans for 89 days, and was absent one day.

Here, once more, are those records.  Will Mr. Payette explain them this time?  Or will he change the subject yet again?

 

The very next semester, one Oswald was at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while the other attended Stripling School in Texas.  I’ve already presented the considerable evidence for that, and Mr. Payette has already decided to just say these records are too difficult to understand, and then change the subject.

The Stripling School records also disappeared, but for them, not even b&w photocopies were produced as replacements.  Why?  Because from the other records there is simply no time for any Oswald to have attended Stripling. 

Stripling assistant principal Frank Kudlaty in 1963 met FBI agent at the school and gave them “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” Stripling records.  His YouTube interview is here.

On two separate occasions,  Robert Oswald told a Fort Worth newspaper that his brother attended Stripling.  See one of the articles here.

Robert also testified to the Warren Commission that his “brother” attended Stripling.

Harvey Oswald’s classmate Fran Schubert said she attended Stripling with Oswald and watched him walk home from Stripling to his house at 2220 Thomas Place.  See her YouTube interview with John here.

In the 1990s, Stripling School principal Ricardo Galindo told John that it was “common knowledge” that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended Stripling.

John also spoke to local student Bobby Pitts, who remembered that Oswald attended Stripling with his younger brother and that he (Bobby) remembered seeing (Harvey) Oswald standing on the porch at 2220 Thomas Place, directly across the street from Stripling.  John also spoke with former Stripling student Doug Gann, who attended ninth grade at Stripling with Harvey and remembered that he live “across the street from the basketball courts and one or two houses to the left,” which exactly describes 2220 Thomas Place, where “Marguerite Oswald” lived at the time of the assassination of JFK. 

John made audio recordings of the Stripling people mentioned above, and we'll be putting together something about them next summer.  In the meantime....

A Forth Worth Star-Telegram article from November 2017 would indicate that Oswald’s “teachers and classmates remember him at Stripling, though there is no official record.”  Read the article here.

[Jim Hargrove]

5 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Good post Lance.

I have grown tired of playing the game with the H&L people. As I get older, I become more and more careful about what I spend time on. As you point out, these topics have been argued over and over. I guess the H&L people need the attention or something so they try and stir up a hornet's nest using the same tired arguments. They used to ask for explanations and myself or Greg Parker would provide links. They then insisted the linked websites did not exist. I have a partial LHO chronology and could provide a timeline for Japan, for example. But I already did  that at one point, so I am not going to do it again. I am too busy for their nonsense. The arguments and counter-arguments are out there, let those interested run a search and decide for themselves.

Mr. Parnell has claimed time and time and time again that someone, somewhere, has debunked Harvey and Lee, but he never dares to do it right here. 

Mr. Payette, at least, is trying, and I thank him for the opportunity to debate it fully.  I'll get back to the Bolton Ford Incident asap.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 minute ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Mr. Parnell has claimed time and time and time again that someone, somewhere, has debunked Harvey and Lee, but he never dares to do it right here. 

Mr. Payette, at least, is trying, and I thank him for the opportunity to debate it fully.  I'll get back to the Bolton Ford Incident asap.

Anyone can go to my website, Jeremy's website, David Von Pein's website and Greg Parker's website and read numerous articles debunking H&L. They can also do searches here at the EF as Karl did and find many multi-page posts discussing the H&L situation. Now, do you want to pretend once more that these websites don't exist as you have done in the past? And yes, I have posted evidence right here on the EF on the subject of school records and Japan. I am not going to find the links for you, you can do that for yourself.

Another example of the type of thing you do is the issue of LHO's birth certificate. A while back, you were insinuating that "something" was funny about the BC issue. So, I spent the time and called Louisiana myself and debunked the whole issue with the help of Lance and Paul Hoch and others. Lurkers can read all about it here:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-truth-about-oswalds-birth.html

And yes, this is a real website and it exists. All you have to do is click the link. You see, that is why people take the time to create websites-so they don't have to type the same thing over and over just to satisfy CTs promoting a silly theory.

[Karl Kinaski]

 From another thread of this forum dealing with HARVEY AND LEE. (I think there are about ten threads dealing with that book ... 

 

Quote

 

Lee Harvey Oswald’s closest English-speaking friend when Oswald lived in Minsk, then part of the Soviet Union, from 1959-1962.

“Erich [Ernst Titovets]…is my oldest existing acquaintance…a friend of mine who speaks English very well …” as Oswald would put it in his Historic Diary.

In his book Oswald: Russian Episode, Dr. Ernst Titovets investigates the Russian period of life and activity of Lee Harvey Oswald. 

 

Excerpts of a blogpost. of JOHN DELANE WILLIAMS:

Quote: 

Did Oswald Speak in Russian while Living in the Soviet Union?

                                                   John Delane Williams and Ernst Titovets

 ()
 When Titovets learned that Armstrong stated that Oswald spoke no Russian while in the Soviet Union, [18] Titovets was amazed. Titovets stated, “It was a cause of genuine surprise on the part of my old friend Vyacheslav Stelmakh, Ph.D., a senior researcher at the Belorussian State University who knew Oswald at the Radio Plant and was also friends with Oswald’s first love Ella German, when I told him a researcher in the States doubts the fact that Oswald spoke Russian. There are still many Russians here in Minsk who would confirm the fact.” 
()

Ernst Titovets apparently decided to read Harvey and Lee for himself, presumably to answer the question, how did Armstrong conclude that Oswald spoke no Russian in Russia? Titovets then sent me an e-mail [35] addressing only those portions of Armstrong’s book that pertained to Oswald’s being in Russia and only those portions that was familiar to Titovets.

TITOVETS VS ARMSTRONG (The Armstrong quotes are from HARVEY AND LEE)

Armstrong:”I wanted to be sure I understood her answer and said, “Ana you knew Oswald from the time he arrived in Minsk until the day he and Marina left for the United States. You and your parents accompanied them to the train station and took photographs (published in the Warren Volumes). During that time he never spoke any Russian, even up to the day he left Minsk?” Ana, once again replied, “No,-not a word. My father always interpreted for him-he was the only person in the family who spoke English…” (p. 288)…“An English-speaking medical student, Erich (Ernst) Titovets, first met Oswald at the Hotel Minsk and later was a regular visitor to his apartment.” (p. 289).

Titovets: Actually, I met Oswald not at the Hotel Minsk, but at the Zigers' apartment. It was in the presence of the whole family: Alexander Ziger, his wife Signora Anna and his two daughters, Anita,  and Eleanora. Oswald spoke Russian and there was no need to interpret for him-  

Armstrong: “At the factory Oswald met another person who spoke English. Pavel Golovachev, the son of a famous Soviet Air Force General…After Pavel and Oswald began spending a lot of time together the KGB asked him to report on Oswald’s activities. He dutifully informed of his contacts with Oswald and kept them apprised of his movements.” (p. 289).

Titovets: Pavel Golovachev did not speak English at all. Once he confided in me that he wished he did and he was sorry he did not speak the language. 

 Armstrong “On October 18 [1960] Lee Harvey Oswald celebrated his 21st birthday. Ella Germann, a girl from the Horizon factory who Oswald had been dating the past two months, and spoke very good English, attended a small birthday party at his apartment.”(p. 311).

Titovets: Ella Germann did not speak English at all.    

Armstrong:”It is clear that Marina associated with Americans, spoke English with Webster and almost certainly spoke English with Oswald… Marina’s ability to read, write, and speak English fluently before she left Russia is indisputable.” (p. 340). 

Titovets: Marina did not speak English at all. It would be really surprising if she would have spoken English with Oswald and completely ignored me even when the three of us were together.   

Armstrong : “When Oswald and Marina met, danced, and agreed to a date the following Friday they spoke a common language. Was it Russian or English? The HSCA asked Marina, ‘At the time were you speaking Russian together?’ She answered, ‘Yes. He spoke with an accent so I assumed he was from another state.’ Oswald came in contact with hundreds of people in Russia, but Marina is the only person-THE ONLY PERSON who said that he spoke Russian while in Russia.” (p. 334).

Titovets: Armstrong is right about there were so many people who met Oswald in Minsk. There are still many living who would have testified to the fact that Oswald spoke Russian to them.  

In the book Oswald: Russian Episode  one can find an illustration with Oswald’s longhand in Russian on the inside cover of a book where Oswald contemplates the names for his future child. Incidentally, Oswald signed his writings.   

When a date-line does not fit Armstrong’s he dismisses it as an error and suggests his “correct” one. To give an example:

Armstrong: “NOTE: We will soon see the date of March 17 is in error.” (p. 333).

Titovets: It is the night at the Trade Union Palace when Oswald first met Marina Prussokova. The date of March 17, 1961 is correct.

Two recent interviews were conducted by Ernst Titovets with persons who had known Oswald when Oswald was living in Minsk. The first interview was with a neurologist Dr. Alexander Mastykin, MD., Ph.D. on March 20, 2013. Mastykin was a medical student at the time he met Oswald. Mastykin was learning Spanish and practiced the language at the Spanish-speaking Zigers family. He knew Anita Zigers very well.

Titovets: Did Anita Ziger speak English at the time she knew Oswald? 

Mastykin: I never heard a single English word ever drop from her lips!

Titovets: John Armstrong wrote a book Harvey and Lee and there, according to John Armstrong, Anita would say to him in an interview that Oswald did not speak Russian at all while he was in Minsk.

Mastykin: It would be Anita all over! I wouldn’t put it past her that she might well invent things and say anything on the spur of the moment, unnecessary true, just for kicks. It might well depend on her mood, how she was approached and if the question was a suggestive one.

Titovets: Did Oswald speak Russian?

Mastykin: To say the truth there was not much love lost between the two of us; I mostly tried to steer away from him. I did not speak English while Oswald did not speak Spanish so it was Russians on those rare occasions when we happened to meet.    

 

-----------    

The second interview was with Vladimir Zhidovich, a leading engineer at the Radio and Cosmic Technologies Department of the Bylorussian State University in Minsk. This interview took place on March 19, 2013. Zhidovich worked together with Oswald at the same shop in the Radio Plant in Minsk.

Titovets: Vladimir, do you know English?

Zhidovich: No, I do not. Why ask? You know that I don’t speak the language!

 Titovets: Never mind. I’ll tell you later. Just answer my questions! Did Oswald speak Russian?

Zhidovitch: Russian was the only language we could communicate with him. He was not a talkative person and his Russian needed much brushing up. But he understood most [of] what he was told to and reacted accordingly.

Titovets: Did anyone at the Radio Plant speak English to him?

Zhidovitch: No way! Nobody knew English around [there] and I never heard anybody speaking English to Oswald at work. Even Stanislav Shushkevich, when he happened to drop over on business to the shop, spoke Russian to him. Now, tell me what’s this all about?

Titovets: A John Armstrong in his book Harvey and Lee insists that Oswald did not speak Russian while those around him spoke mainly English. We both know perfectly well that Oswald did speak Russian and I just wanted to hear it from you to oblige an American friend and researcher who wants to check the fact.

Zhidovitch: First I thought it was some kind of trick question. Of course Oswald did speak Russian!

 

Now go to page 288 of HARVEY AND LEE, quote: 

Quote HARVEY AND LEE: p. 288 It is clear that Oswald understood and spoke  Russian prior his arrival in Mos­cow,  although the extent of his proficiency remains unknown. It is also clear that after 
he arrived in the Soviet Union, he dared not let anyone know that he spoke Russian, especially the people with whom he spent the most time, the Zigers, who he probably assumed were report into the KGB. 

Close quote

 

KK

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Karl Kinaski

[Karl Kinaski]

BTW: There is a whole sub-forum devoted to HARVEY AND LEE  at ROCK.  

And a FB page dealing with that book. 

Enough is enough? I think so. 

[Karl Kinaski]

"HARVEY AND LEE" and the "Oswald in NOLA eyewitness" Judyth Vary Baker book "ME AND LEE" are not compatible. That's why Armstrong is refusing to meet Baker to discus the subject. (James Files, the Steven Louis Wittt of the grassy knoll,  as I call him, also refuses to meet Baker ... 

Read how Baker dismantles some of Armstrongs claims brought forward by Athe late Armstrong-Fan Jack White:

 

Quote

 

Quote, Ed Forum "Judyth Baker in Exile" Threat, page 47, posted by James Fetzer on this forum: 
 
March 28, 2010 (edited)

QUOTE:: 
The numbered sentences are from Jack White (Me: HARVEY AND LEE was the conspiracy bible of that late JFK Researcher Jack White), JV Bakers responses are in bold and unnumbered.

1. With her family's knowledge, Marguerite took Lee to New York for "mental testing".

'FAMILY KNOWLEDGE'? WE HAVE JOHN PIC'S SHOCK THAT MARGUERITE SHOWS UP WITH
LEE AND SEEMS TO WANT TO STAY. MARGUERITE ELSEWHERE GIVES A MULTITUDE OF
REASONS WHY THEY WENT TO NEW YORK, ESPECIALLY WANTING LEE TO BE NEAR HIS
BROTHER.

2. The mental testing turned out to be a CIA operation to look for candidates to LEND
THEIR IDENTITY TO THE CIA for a FALSE DEFECTOR PROGRAM.

==THE "MENTAL TESTING" OCCURRED AT A YOUTH HOUSE, WHERE LEE WENT ONLY
AFTER MANY MONTHS OF TRUANCY. IT IS OBVIOUS THAT LEE DIDN'T ORIGINALLY GO
TO NEW YORK FOR TESTING.==

3. Marguerite, Robert and John Pic all considered this PATRIOTIC.

WHERE DO THEY SAY THAT TESTING LEE OSWALD IN A FACILITY FOR JUVENILE
DELINQUENTS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH PATRIOTISM? QUOTES, PLEASE.

4. There was NO RISK to Lee; all he was doing was allowing his identity to be used.

CITATIONS, PLEASE. FROM ANY SOURCE BUT WHITE AND ARMSTRONG.

5. This happened when Lee was 12 or 13 years old; he probably liked the intrigue of it...
his name being used by a spy being trained.

WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO LEE IS ALMOST AS EXCITING AS WHAT HAS
BEEN MADE UP HERE. HOW DID JOHN ARMSTRONG MISS CHARLES THOMAS?
PERHAPS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SPEND NEARLY THREE YEARS SEARCHING FOR A
GERMAN-ACCENT CUSTOMS AGENT FROM NEW YORK WHO HAD ONCE LIVED IN MIAMI,
HAD TATTOOS ON HIS FINGERS, SPOKE FLUENT SPANISH, AND WAS MARRIED TO A
CHITIMACHA INDIAN WOMAN. WHO HAD PLENTY OF GOOD INFORMATION ABOUT
LEE IN NEW YORK, SOME OF WHICH I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PROVE OCCURRED.

6. Marguerite likely received much needed compensation for doing this.

HOW LIKELY IS THAT? ARMSTRONG ALSO SAYS SHE SOLD HER HOUSE IN 1952.

7. Armstrong documents how when Marguerite returns to Fort Worth, she began
buying real estate, though said to be destitute.

SHE SOLD HER HOME IN 1952 AND OTHER THINGS OCCURRED, WHICH I CAN EXPLAIN.

8. John Pic was first to say that there was a substitute for his half brother. A photo
of Harvey playing hookey at the Bronx Zoo during the New York stay Pic said was
not anyone he recognized.

I HAVE ALREADY DEMONSTRATED THAT HE PHENOTYPE IS OSWALD. THE STRONG FAMILY
RESEMBLANCE IS UNMISTAKABLE. IF PIC COULD NOT RECOGNIZE THE PHOTO, WE MUST
NOTE THAT THE PHOTO ITSELF HAS BLACK SPOTS ON IT AROUND THE NOSE AND EYES,
WHICH DO NOT BELONG THERE.

9. Robert knew of the operation from the beginning, but did not meet HARVEY
until the Thanksgiving Reunion.

WHO TOLD HIM TO STAY MUM ABOUT 'HARVEY' WHEN 'HARVEY' SHOWED UP FROM RUSSIA? T
THE US GOVERNMENT? WHEN? BEFORE 'HARVEY' ARRIVED? WHAT ABOUT THE PHOTOS ON THE
WALL SHOWING BOTH 'LEE' AND 'HARVEY'? WHEN WAS ROBERT TOLD? WHO GAVE ROBERT THE
IMPERIAL REFLEX CAMERA BEFORE 'LEE' WENT TO RUSSIA?

IT'S TIME FOR A DNA TEST, PEOPLE. THIS IS TOO MUCH. WE HAVE TO HAVE TWO MARGUERITES
-- ONE OF WHOM VANISHES FOREVER. ARMSTRONG IS RELYING ON RECORDS WHEN LEE TOLD
ME PLAINLY THAT SOME RECORDS ABOUT HIM HAD BEEN FAKED. YOU MUST NEVER BELIEVE
EVERY RECORD YOU FIND ABOUT A FAKE DEFECTOR. LEE SAID HE HAD A WAY TO 'SLIP BACK
INTO SOCIETY' AS IF HE HAD NEVER LEFT DUE TO ALTERED RECORDS, SO HE COULD HAVE A
NORMAL LIFE AFTER HE LEFT THE AGENCY. HE TRIED TO LEAVE--THEY SAID HE COULD LEAVE
AFTER CHRISTMAS, 1963. THEY KEPT HIM HOPING. YOU CAN EVEN SEE [HIS OPTIMISM IN]
THAT IN THE THANKSGIVING MOVIE PHOTOS -- OR CORRECT ME, IF I AM WRONG, PLEASE.

10. Lee and Harvey clearly knew each other according to Armstrong's time lines.

OF COURSE THEY DID. THEY WERE ONE AND THE SAME PERSON.

11. Ruth Paine was clearly the handler for both Lee and Harvey, and both of them
were involved in the JFK plot, though not witting that Harvey was to be the PATSY.

RUTH PAINE'S HOSTILITY TOWARD LEE COULD NOT BE MORE OBVIOUS. WHEN HE CALLED FROM
JAIL ASKING HER TO CONTACT A LAWYER -- JOHN ABT OF NEW YORK -- FOR HIM, SHE FAILED
TO DO SO. SHE HAS CIA WRITTEN ALL OVER HER. WHAT SHE DID THE NIGHT OF NOV. 21 IS
TRULY SUSPICIOUS AND I HOPE TO ALERT EVERYONE TO READ HER ACCOUNT OF THAT NIGHT
VERY CAREFULLY.

SHE ALSO FOOLED LEE INTO THINKING SHE WAS GOING TO STAY WITH HIS WIFE WHEN MARINA
HAD HER SECOND CHILD, THEN JUST DROPPED POOR MARINA AT THE HOSPITAL AND RETURNED.
INFURIATING LEE WHO HAD STAYED BEHIND TO WATCH HER CHILDREN AND HIS DAUGHTER. HE
REFUSED TO SPEAK TO HER AND PRETENDED HE WAS ASLEEP WHEN HE HEARD HER CALL AND
FOUND OUT MARINA WAS OK AND HAD DELIVERED HER BABY ONLY AN HOUR OR SO AFTER BEING
DROPPED OFF TO HAVE THE BABY WITHOUT ANY RUSSIAN-SPEAKING PERSON PRESENT. THE
PAINES DID NOT CARE ONE HOOT ABOUT LEE, EITHER. HE WAS THEIR ASSIGNMENT. PERIOD.

12. It was arranged that Harvey lived in a rooming house during the week, while
Lee lived at the Paine house.

THIS IS THE MOST ABSURD OF ALL, AS LEE LOVED TO PLAY WITH THE KIDS THERE AND NEXT DOOR
AND THEY LOOKED FORWARD TO HIS VISITS. SO THEY BOTH SHARE MARINA, RIGHT?

13. Lee lived at the Paine house on weekends only; it is not known where Lee
lived on weekends.

BECAUSE HE WAS LEE H. OSWALD.

14. It should be remembered that Marina said: I HAD TWO HUSBANDS, HARVEY
AND LEE.

==SHE MEANT THAT THE WAY RUSSIANS ALWAYS SPEAK. A STUDY OF LINGUISTICS AND CULTURAL
ANTHROPOLOGY WOULD HELP A GREAT DEAL HERE. ONE MAN WAS A SPY, THE OTHER HER "WORKMAN
HUSBAND" WHO WAS A 'BOOKWORM' (HER WORDS). THE BAD JOB DONE ON LEE BY THE MORTICIAN
INCLUDED NOT INJECTING ENOUGH EMBALMING FLUID IN THE FACE, PUTTING ON TOO MUCH MAKEUP,
AND SEWING HIS LIPS TOO TIGHT. THE AUTOPSY PHOTOS ARE CLEARLY LEE.

POOR MARINA WAS IMPOSED UPON TO OPEN THE GRAVE AND HAVE HIM EXHUMED BECAUSE THE SCAR
LEE HAD HIDDEN UNDER HIS EAR TO HIDE HIS MASTOID OPERATION WAS NOT IN HE AUTOPSY. SURE
ENOUGH, THEY FOUND THE MASTOID BONE PROCESS BLUNTED BY HE OPERATION AND THE INFECTIONS.
THERE'S MORE, BUT THAT'S ENOUGH FOR NOW.==

(“I had two husbands: Lee, the father of my children, an affectionate and kind man;
and Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President Kennedy.”)

BECAUSE LEE'S ENEMIES PRESENTED TO HER A DICHOTOMOUS IMAGE. SHE KNEW THAT LEE WAS AN
AFFECTIONATE AND KIND MAN -- HE HAD STOPPED MISTREATING HER AND WAS DECENT TO HER, EVEN
THOUGH HE ULTIMATELY PLANNED TO DIVORCE HER. HE LEFT HIS WEDDING RING BEHIND -- FOR GOOD
REASON, IF HE GOT OUT ALIVE, WE WOULD HAVE MET IN MEXICO....

MARINA SAID YEARS LATER SHE HAD BEEN PRESENTED MUCH FALSE INFORMATION AND HAD BEEN
PERSUADED THAT HER HUSBAND WAS THE ASSASSIN. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT MARINA OSWALD
WAS SLEEPING WITH TWO SEPARATE MEN. LET'S SEE THE LIST [ACCORDING TO JOHN ARMSTRONG]:

1) TWO MARGUERITES -- ONE VANISHES

2) TWO OSWALDS -- ONE VANISHES

3) ROBERT OSWALD KNOWS BUT NEVER TELLS

4) RUTH PAINE KNOWS BUT NEVER TELLS HER SHE HATES ALL THAT LAUNDRY IN HER SMALL HOME
WHERE 'LEE' MUST SLEEP ON THE COUCH OR WITH MARINA ALL WEEK!

5) MICHAEL PAINE ALSO KNOWS BUT DOESN'T TELL

7) DO WE EVER HAVE ANOTHER CASE OF A SPY "DUAL PAIR" IDENTITY FROM CHILDHOOD KNOWN IN
THE RECORDS LATER THAN LEE OSWALD "LEE" AND "HARVEY"?

😎 WHY HASN'T A SINGLE PERSON INVOLVED IN THIS COMPLEX SCENARIO EVER LEAKED A WORD?
THEY'RE STILL ALIVE, TOO. DID ARMSTRONG EVER ASK ANY OF THEM, FACE TO FACE? CAN WE SEE
THOSE INTERVIEWS WHERE HE ASKED THEM?

 (...)

 Close Quote

 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Karl Kinaski

[Guest]

13 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Good post Lance.

I have grown tired of playing the game with the H&L people. As I get older, I become more and more careful about what I spend time on. As you point out, these topics have been argued over and over. I guess the H&L people need the attention or something so they try and stir up a hornet's nest using the same tired arguments. They used to ask for explanations and myself or Greg Parker would provide links. They then insisted the linked websites did not exist. I have a partial LHO chronology and could provide a timeline for Japan, for example. But I already did  that at one point, so I am not going to do it again. I am too busy for their nonsense. The arguments and counter-arguments are out there, let those interested run a search and decide for themselves.

I'm going to stop beating my head against the H&L wall as well.  It's truly like debating with the most extreme form of religious fundamentalist - and I have a great deal of frustrating experience with that.  These folks need H&L for some reason.  The fact that we keep seeing the same documents, the same arguments, the same everything on thread after thread would make me suspicious that they have some sort of commission from Armstrong to keep H&L alive and help him sell books - but the sales of this $80, 5-pound behemoth have to be miniscule at best (and Armstrong apparently doesn't need the money).

I really think this site would be better if it were segmented into topics - if you want to discuss H&L or Prayer Man or the Zapruder film or the ballistic evidence, go to your very own little denominational sub-forum and beat the subject to death.  As I said in my recent response to Greg Parker's open letter to me, I believe the conspiracy community's willingness to entertain any and all "evidence" and theories is completely counterproductive.  I have to wonder if the prominence of H&L on this site is one of the reasons that many of those who used to have the most to contribute seem to have departed.

[Paul Jolliffe]

36 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

I'm going to stop beating my head against the H&L wall as well.  It's truly like debating with the most extreme form of religious fundamentalist - and I have a great deal of frustrating experience with that.  These folks need H&L for some reason.  The fact that we keep seeing the same documents, the same arguments, the same everything on thread after thread would make me suspicious that they have some sort of commission from Armstrong to keep H&L alive and help him sell books - but the sales of this $80, 5-pound behemoth have to be miniscule at best (and Armstrong apparently doesn't need the money).

I really think this site would be better if it were segmented into topics - if you want to discuss H&L or Prayer Man or the Zapruder film or the ballistic evidence, go to your very own little denominational sub-forum and beat the subject to death.  As I said in my recent response to Greg Parker's open letter to me, I believe the conspiracy community's willingness to entertain any and all "evidence" and theories is completely counterproductive.  I have to wonder if the prominence of H&L on this site is one of the reasons that many of those who used to have the most to contribute seem to have departed.

Since you freely admit you have no coherent explanation for the school records mess, yet you have the arrogance to insist that some rational non H&L explanation exists somewhere in some fantasy land, your insulting posts on this topic will not be missed.

The school record debacle is solely the fault of the Warren Commission's failure to investigate properly "Oswald's" background. The failure to answer such a simple question as "where did the accused go to junior high school in the fall of 1953?" reveals an incompetence of colossal proportions at best. 

It's really not a difficult question, Lance.

Why did the Warren Commission publish school records that indicated that "Oswald" attended school full time in both NYC and New Orleans in the fall of 1953?

I don't know why they did that, but the fact remains, that's what they published.

Of course, the simplest answer is very reasonable: there were two separate sets of 1953 school records because there were two separate young boys using the name "Lee Harvey Oswald."

 

[Karl Kinaski]

To shift all those repetitive and tiring H&L Topics (about 10 or more) to a subforum would unburden the JFK assassination debate forum a lot, IMO... everyone who is obsessed with H&L could go there for endless debates ... 

KK

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Of course, the simplest answer is very reasonable: there were two separate sets of 1953 school records because there were two separate young boys using the name "Lee Harvey Oswald."

I can provide a simpler explanation than yours. The H&L people are misinterpreting or intentionally misrepresenting the evidence to promote their theory. The records clearly show that LHO attended school at Beauregard beginning on January 13, 1954.  This jibes with other evidence showing that he and Marguerite left NYC just before this. Here is a 12-page thread (involving Lance) from 2017-18 discussing all of this. So for you to say there is no alternate explanation is just not correct: