EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Paul Jolliffe]

12 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

The answer is it should have been investigated by the DPD in conjunction with the FBI.  A congressional investigation also could have made sense and would have been more thorough.  No LBJ made sure it was a presidential commission with an objective which was not to get to the truth, but rather to produce a plausible theory of Oswald did it alone.

Cory,

The most interesting extended analysis of the formation of the Warren Commission (and all of the attendant pressure on LBJ to form such a commission) can be found in Donald Gibson's "The Kennedy Assassination Cover-up". The first 130 pages or so are magnificent - I highly urge you (and everyone else) to read Gibson's work. 

The pressure on LBJ to have a quasi-independent body offer up a counter to whatever the FBI might come up with started on Sunday afternoon, 11/24/63 with phone calls from Yale Law School Dean Eugene Rostow to Acting Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach. While those phone calls were not recorded, we do have the tape of Rostow's call to Bill Moyers (LBJ's Special Assistant and later Press Secretary), which was compeleted before 4:00 pm. "Oswald's" body was not even cold yet! No one knew at that moment what the hell was going on!

Yet Rostow had one overriding mission - to get LBJ to create a body that would issue a no-conspiracy finding.

I commend Gibson's work - it is invaluable in helping us to hear from where the pressure came.

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Assassination-Cover-up-Donald-Gibson/dp/1615779639

Edited September 30, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Jim Hargrove]

And, to continue Paul's point, the very next day Deputy Attorney General Katzenbach wrote the infamous memo that called for a cover-up... I mean a determination of "Oswald's" lone guilt.. before the Warren Commission was even organized.

An easier to read reproduction of the above document can be seen at this address:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62268#relPageId=29&tab=page

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

I haven't followed this thread very well.  My mind rebels when I try to read your opponent's postings.  They lack creditability when compared to the records you are posting.  And, they use to many propaganda techniques.

I think debating these fellows is a waste of time.

Thanks, John.  I love it when those guys attack me because it provides yet another opportunity to post more evidence.  I hope they keep trying!  

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

And, to continue Paul's point, the very next day Deputy Attorney General Katzenbach wrote the infamous memo that called for a cover-up... I mean a determination of "Oswald's" lone guilt.. before the Warren Commission was even organized.

An easier to read reproduction of the above document can be seen at this address:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62268#relPageId=29&tab=page

 

 

Actually, Jim, it's a little bit better than that - Katzenbach hand wrote his draft of this memo on Sunday evening, November 24. Harold Weisberg dug out the longhand version, hand-written on a yellow legal pad. As Weisberg noted to me, it was not typed on Sunday evening because no typists were available on Sunday evenings. So, the memo above, typed on Monday, November 25, was actually prepared within just a very few hours of "Oswald's" murder, and shortly after Katzenbach had received at least two separate phone calls from Eugene Rostow, telling/pressuring/cajoling him to get LBJ to create the Warren Commission.

Rostow was so concerned that his message had not resonated with Katzenbach that he then placed the infamous call to Bill Moyers before 4 o'clock on Sunday afternoon. That call was taped, and in it, we can hear Rostow crank up the pressure on Moyers to get LBJ to act.

So, this memo, in which Katzenbach laid out the basics of the coverup before "Oswald" was even cold, was the immediate result of intense pressure on the Johnson administration from outside the U.S. government. 

That pressure came from the conspirators, and Eugene Rostow was their mouthpiece .  .   .

[Rick McTague]

Jim,

In the interest of completeness, I think the evidence Sandy Larsen uncovered a while back regarding the difference in the LHO historical dental records and the dental evidence of the disinterred body in the 80's is some of the strongest evidence of two Oswald's.  I don't have pictures but this is the thread where it was discussed.  Excellent work by both you and Sandy!

Thanks

[Jim Hargrove]

Rick,

Absolutely!  Sandy started with evidence that John A. discovered in the late 1990s and kept expanding on it.  I believe he (Sandy) was the first researcher to make note of the “FAILED” prosthesis notation on the USMC records.  Thank you for providing the link to his posts. Here ‘tis again:

Sandy Larsen’s Study of “Oswald” Dental Records

Here is the evidence John and I have been presenting for years that started Sandy on his quest:

In the fall of 1954, LEE Oswald was in the 9th grade at Beauregard JHS, where he became friends with a kid named Ed Voebel after Voebel witnessed him in a protracted fight with the Neumeyer brothers, Johnny and Mike.  Voebel and a couple of other kids attempted to patch Lee up.  This was in November. Voebel told the Warren Commission that Oswald lost a tooth in the fight.

Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.

Soon after the fight, Voebel took a famous photograph of Oswald that he eventually sold to LIFE magazine after the assassination.  It appears to show LEE Oswald with a missing tooth.

About a half century later, after one of a number of meetings John Armstrong had with Marina (Oswald) Porter, she handed him all the original photos of the 1981 exhumation.  Here is one of them.

 

As you can see, there is no missing front tooth.

From this starting point, Sandy Larsen developed substantially more evidence.  John Butler also discovered recently that the 1955 Civil Air Patrol photo (which also depicts David Ferrie) seems to show American-born LEE Oswald with a missing tooth that is clearly present in the exhumation photo.

I personally have the Feb. 21, 1964 edition of LIFE magazine which contains the big halftone reproduction of Voebel's photo that fills up all of page 70 and extends onto page 71. The images above (except Marina's exhumation graphic) were from my scanner, or processed from a scans I made, and I did my best to make the most accurate reproductions possible.

Thanks again, Rick!

[W. Tracy Parnell]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Absolutely!  Sandy started with evidence that John A. discovered in the late 1990s and kept expanding on it.

So, is Armstrong endorsing Sandy's work and is he going to incorporate it into the officially endorsed H&L theory?

[Gene Kelly]

Lyndon Johnson had many political pressures imposed upon him, as well as personal reasons (i.e. Bobby Baker) to deflect Congressional inquiries with a Commission. LBJ initially rejected the idea of a Commission after consulting his de facto counsel, Abe Fortas, who cautioned against getting the White House involved in any way with an investigation into the murder, believing that such a commission would set a bad precedent by engaging the federal government into what was a state matter. The President then got a call from journalist Joseph Alsop, who encouraged him to discuss the matter with Dean Acheson, the elder statesman and former Secretary of State. Alsop "argues, cajoles, and invokes the name of Acheson" in his persistent attempts to get Johnson to change his mind and conduct a Commission. The edited transcript of this conversation is in Michael Beschloss' "Taking Charge" where Alsop persuaded Johnson of the need for the results of the criminal investigation to be sanctified by a number of august figures, mentioning several influential people including Nicholas Katzenbach, Dean Acheson and Fred Friendly, the president of CBS: 

“I’m not suggesting that you appoint an additional investigating commission … I’m just suggesting that if you want to carry absolute convictions, this very small addition to the admirable machinery they’ve already have … will help you and I believe that it will counter the imagination of the country and be a very useful, happy thing … ask Dean Acheson, he’s the man to ask. What I’m really honestly giving you is public relation advice and not legal advice … I am suggesting simply a device for summing up the result of the FBI inquiry in a way that will be completely coherent, detailed, and will carry unchallengeable convictions and this carrying conviction is just as important as carrying on the investigation - in the right way - and I worry about this Post editorial … I’d like you to get ahead of them. From the public relations standpoint and from the standpoint of carrying conviction, there is that missing key which is easy to supply without infringing upon Texas feelings or sovereignty.”      

On November 25, Johnson was against the idea, but by the 28th he is lobbying support for it ... his change of mind somehow transformed in the space of four days from an opponent to the creator of the Warren Commission.  Soon, a Washington Post editorial highlighting the need for a national solution to the crisis appeared on the 26^th.  By this time, the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Internal Security, chaired by James Eastland, had announced its intention to hold hearings, plus there were also signs that the House Un-American Activities Committee was making noise on the grounds that Oswald had been affiliated with left-wing groups as the FPCC.  Rostow argued that LBJ needed a commission because “world opinion and American opinion is just now so shaken by the behavior of the Dallas Police that they do not believe anything.”

The same politicians, who had been calling for an investigation into the Baker case, were now calling for an assassination investigation. In a phone call to John McCormack (speaker of the House) on November 29th, LBJ emphasized that he didn't want someone testifying in public that “Khrushchev planned the whole thing and he got our President assassinated... you can see what that’ll lead us to, right quick. You take care of the House of Representatives for me”.  Johnson was lobbying to ensure the joint Senate-House Investigation suggested by Goodell would not take place. That same day, LBJ spoke to Charles Halleck, House Minority Leader, using the same tactic stating "It's got some foreign complications - CIA and other things - and I'm going to try to get the Chief Justice to go on it." 

Alsop lived in Washington where he associated with a group of journalists, politicians and government officials known as the ‘Georgetown Set’. This included Dean Acheson, Richard Bissell, Philip Graham, Clark Clifford, Walt Rostow, Eugene Rostow, Cord Meyer, James Angleton, William Averill Harriman, John McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles (it's clear who JFK's enemies and advesaries were). In 1960, when JFK secured the Democratic Party nomination. Alsop helped persuade Kennedy to make Lyndon Johnson (instead of Stuart Symington) his running-mate, commenting:

"We've come to talk to you about the vice-presidency. Something may happen to you, and Symington is far too shallow a puddle for the United States to dive into. Furthermore, what are you going to do about Lyndon Johnson? He's much too big a man to leave up in the Senate." Phillip Graham then added that not having Johnson on the ticket would certainly be trouble”.  

Within LBJ’s hawkish administration was “shadowy clique” for examining covert operations, including a secret political agreement in 1966 by which Israel and the United States had vowed to destroy Egypt’s Nasser, with military name Operation Cyanide. Johnson's closest advisors (Eugene and Walter Rostow, Special Assistant for National Security Affairs) supported military and economic assistance to Israel and concerns about Israel's nuclear program were tabled during the build-up to the Six Day War and its aftermath. John Kennedy’s death eased the pressure on Israel, and Johnson chose to turn a blind eye on the nuclear activities at Dimona ... CIA Director John McCone resigned in 1965, complaining of Johnson’s lack of interest in the subject.

[Ken Martinson]

On 9/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

In a memo to Lou Ivon, Jim Garrison wrote this about Classic Oswald’s® brother: "If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert Oswald knew this returning defector was not really Lee and this is what Robert's problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out. He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface."

 1. So, try to paint a whole scenario for me. Robert O., the patriot, knew something odd was going on, but was dealing with sparse information. He was not close to his real mother for over 10 years. And then he was told that she was on some "special mission" to Grenada or some far off place, and got malaria and died. It all seemed plausible. And he knew that Lee and this Hungarian Russian-speaking guy were up to some covert activity, for the good of the country. He wasn't close to Lee either. And then Lee had gone undercover for a time for things to "blow over", and then he died of malaria too.

And the message to him was: Don't ask too many questions and everything will be fine with you.

The only way to see if this is true is a DNA test on the kids or grandkids of Harvey and Robert.

Why not start a GoFundMe campaign to get saliva from these two families. I'm sure that some good sleuth can track them down, invite them for coffee, and then keep the cup for a DNA test.  Is anyone willing to try?

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Ken Martinson said:

Why not start a GoFundMe campaign to get saliva from these two families.

Ken,

You'd have to make far less noise to have any chance of success.  

[W. Tracy Parnell]

5 hours ago, Ken Martinson said:

 1. So, try to paint a whole scenario for me. Robert O., the patriot, knew something odd was going on, but was dealing with sparse information. He was not close to his real mother for over 10 years. And then he was told that she was on some "special mission" to Grenada or some far off place, and got malaria and died. It all seemed plausible. And he knew that Lee and this Hungarian Russian-speaking guy were up to some covert activity, for the good of the country. He wasn't close to Lee either. And then Lee had gone undercover for a time for things to "blow over", and then he died of malaria too.

And the message to him was: Don't ask too many questions and everything will be fine with you.

The only way to see if this is true is a DNA test on the kids or grandkids of Harvey and Robert.

Why not start a GoFundMe campaign to get saliva from these two families. I'm sure that some good sleuth can track them down, invite them for coffee, and then keep the cup for a DNA test.  Is anyone willing to try?

Good post Ken and you have summed up the absurdity of the whole thing very nicely. Don't expect Jim to answer though. Even though they expect anyone that is even a little skeptical of their claims to provide an explanation for every discrepancy they have found in the documentary record, they themselves just ignore those pesky unanswerable questions that destroy H&L. Like why did the forensic examination of the body of "Harvey" have signs of the mastoid operation that "Lee" had? And why did handwriting experts find that samples of the dynamic duo's writing were from the same man? And why was a 1956 photo of "Lee" found to morphologically match "Harvey?"  Instead, they bring up issues like school records and the chronology of the far east that have been answered a million times.

[Cory Santos]

Ok in looking at various missing teeth photos it appears they are all different teeth.  

Explanation?

[Jim Hargrove]

The exhumation photos clearly show that the Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald had all of his teeth, at least those that would be visible in a photograph. All the Oswald photos that seem to show a missing tooth or teeth are of American-born Lee Oswald, at least according to John A’s analysis of the known facts about the two biographies.  It should be noted, though, that the photographic evidence is probably just as compromised as so much other evidence is in this case.

[Jim Hargrove]

I'd like to add that, for nearly three and half years prior to the assassination of JFK, Hoover was quite aware of the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was being impersonated.  Read the last paragraph of the document below.

This is the reason Hoover, within hours of the assassination, dispatched agents in NYC, New Orleans, and Texas to confiscate all the original school records and early employment records for Oswald.

[Jim Hargrove]

On 10/2/2019 at 4:15 PM, Ken Martinson said:

1. So, try to paint a whole scenario for me. Robert O., the patriot, knew something odd was going on, but was dealing with sparse information. He was not close to his real mother for over 10 years. And then he was told that she was on some "special mission" to Grenada or some far off place, and got malaria and died. It all seemed plausible. And he knew that Lee and this Hungarian Russian-speaking guy were up to some covert activity, for the good of the country. He wasn't close to Lee either. And then Lee had gone undercover for a time for things to "blow over", and then he died of malaria too.

And the message to him was: Don't ask too many questions and everything will be fine with you.

Ken,

Do you have evidence about any of the hypothetical situations you describe above?  Rather than just speculating about everything, let me give you an example of what real evidence shows about “Oswald’s” immediate family.  From the Warren Commission Report

Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7,
1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of
confinement).451 On August 17, he submitted a request for a depend-
ency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support.452
The request was accompanied by an affidavit of Mrs. Oswald and cor-
roborating affidavits from an attorney, a doctor, and two friends,
attesting that she had been injured at work in December 1958, and
was unable to support herself.453 [WCR, p. 688]

The above indicates that “Marguerite” was unemployed from December 1958 until at least Aug. 17, 1959.  In fact, other WC documents indicate she was unemployed the entire year of 1959.  This is an important period, because it was the time the Russian-speaking Oswald was officially released from his so-called service in the USMC enabling his false defection to the Soviet Union.

And yet, according to both Robert Oswald and John Pic, they visited their mother (the real Marguerite) in April 1959 and around Halloween 1958, while she was working at Cox’s Department Store in Fort Worth.  Robert said she worked at Cox’s from the fall of 1958 until at least the time of his visit with her around April 1959.

Robert Oswald’s testimony:

Mr. JENNER. In the month of April '59?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately that date.
Mr. JENNER. And did you visit her, or did she visit you?
Mr. OSWALD. I saw her at her place of employment.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I recited some possibilities--that she called you and asked you to come to see her, that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it that you just happened to be in the downtown Fort Worth area, and you stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe the latter would possibly be more accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She was not employed at that time at the downtown area of Fort Worth, but rather at a suburb store, Cox's Department Store.
Mr. JENNER. This is a shoe store?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, this is just a large department store, from wearing apparel to toys, a full line store.

John Pic’s testimony:

Mr. JENNER. This is the first time you had seen your brother Robert, I take
it, since his visit to New York City, is that correct?
Mr. PIC. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that was a cordial reunion, was it?
Mr. PIC. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Was your mother working at that time?
Mr. PIC. She was working, sir, when we arrived there, at Cox, I believe, Department Store at the candy counter, I believe it was Cox, I know she was working at a candy counter.

According to the FBI/WC, “Marguerite” was unemployed when Robert visited his real mother at Cox’s Dept. Store, and, again according to the WC, "Marguerite" was working at the King Candy Counter at the Fair Ridglea Department Store when Mr. Pic testified he visited his mother, just as Robert had testified, at Cox’s.

It’s a small point, perhaps, but it is thousands of little details such as this that need to be understood to be able to comprehend the Oswald Project.  Robert Oswald knew all about it and, after it became entangled in the JFK assassination, must have been persuaded to keep silent about it with a “sources and methods” argument from U.S. intel.  John Pic refused to talk to almost anyone, including John Armstrong, after the assassination.  I think he suspected something, but may not have known what to make of it all.  It’s interesting that he told the Warren Commission that several clear pictures of “Oswald” did not appear to be of his brother.