Oswald's language abilities and evidence related to his Soviet soujourn (1959-63)

[Mark Stevens]

I gotta say, I'm completely lost and confused.

As I understand the "Harvey & Lee" theory, the entire project was created because "they" needed a native speaker of Russia to be infiltrated into the country for spying missions. It was necessary to have a native speaker versus someone American who learned Russian due to accents, etc... which would raise suspicion of the spy and his mission. A native speaker might seem more inconspicuous and not arouse suspicion.

Is this basically correct?

[Jim Hargrove]

11 minutes ago, Mark Stevens said:

Is this basically correct?

No, it isn't.  Why don't you at least try to understand the basics of Harvey and Lee before arguing against them.

[Mark Stevens]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

No, it isn't.  Why don't you at least try to understand the basics of Harvey and Lee before arguing against them.

What am I arguing against? I asked a question... 

What's basically incorrect then? 

ETA:

Also, this is taken directly from the "Harvey & Lee" website:

Quote

A program created by US intelligence merged the identities of Russian-speaking HARVEY and American-born LEE Oswald. The result, ten years later, was that young Russian-speaking HARVEY had an American background and birth certificate. HARVEY was an ideal candidate to “defect” to the Soviet Union and work as an undercover agent who secretly understood Russian.

This seems to be basically the exact thing I said.

Quote

A program created by US intelligence merged the identities of Russian-speaking HARVEY and American-born LEE Oswald. The result, ten years later, was that young Russian-speaking HARVEY had an American background and birth certificate. HARVEY was an ideal candidate to “defect” to the Soviet Union and work as an undercover agent who secretly understood Russian.

If I'm wrong, you really should update your website.

If I'm wrong, can you please clarify for me what I'm wrong about, and how what I said differs from what you write on your website?

Edited August 19, 2020 by Mark Stevens
ETA

[Karl Hilliard]

Key elements are...What espionage did the defector [Harvey] actually engage in? It seems that he was just there [in the USSR] got married and left.

Probably best asked in another thread but....How was it that this impersonator [Lee] was introduced as a willing conspirator and murderer?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

Does anyone here believe Oswald taught himself the Russian language while in the Marines?

If you go back to the second comment on page 9, you'll see quotations from four of Oswald's Marine buddies who seemed certain that he was teaching himself Russian while in the Marines. I'd guess the answer to Jim's question is: yes, every rational person believes that Oswald taught himself Russian while in the Marines.

It's undeniable that Oswald was teaching himself Russian. Now, if he learned Russian at least partly through self-study, and if he performed less than outstandingly in a basic Russian language test, and if he was making frequent grammatical mistakes in Russian even after having spent two and a half years surrounded by native speakers of Russian, it's equally undeniable that he cannot have been a native speaker of Russian himself.

And if he was not a native Russian speaker, the 'Harvey and Lee' theory is wrong.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

Quote

the fact that the designers of the Oswald Project chose a native speaker of Russian for the mission rather than a Russian-taught spy who'd likely have an American accent.

But that isn't a fact. It's speculation which is contradicted by the evidence I just mentioned in my reply to Jim. If anything is a fact, it's that the real-life, historical Lee Harvey Oswald was not a native speaker of Russian.

So, on the one hand, the hypothetical designers of the hypothetical 'Oswald Project' deliberately chose someone who did not have an American accent.

But on the other hand, the hypothetical point of the hypothetical 'Oswald Project' was to convince the Soviet authorities that the defector was a hypothetical American and not someone who was a native speaker of Russian.

It doesn't quite add up, does it?

If you want to convince the Soviets that your defector is an American, an American accent is precisely what your defector needs to have. Someone who speaks Russian without an American accent is precisely what you do not want.

Then add the problem I mentioned in an earlier comment: the hypothetical 'Oswald Project' did not, in hypothetical practice, require someone who was a native speaker of Russian. The hypothetical defector only needed to understand the language that was being spoken around him. You don't need to be a native speaker to do that. A non-native speaker could have done the hypothetical job perfectly well. The long-term doppelganger scheme was unnecessary.

The 'Harvey and Lee' theory is self-contradictory nonsense, isn't it?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Mark Stevens writes:

Quote

If I'm wrong, you [Jim] really should update your website.

Jim should change this sentence from his website:

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HARVEY was an ideal candidate to “defect” to the Soviet Union and work as an undercover agent who secretly understood Russian.

To this:

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HARVEY was an over-qualified, far from ideal candidate to “defect” to the Soviet Union and work as an undercover agent who secretly understood Russian, because HARVEY was a native speaker of Russian and you don't need to be a native speaker to secretly understand the language that is being spoken around you.

The whole HARVEY and LEE project was unnecessary. US intelligence could have saved all the trouble and expense of a decade-long project by simply identifying an American with a knack for languages, who would work as an undercover agent who secretly understood Russian.

Not quite as snappy as Jim's version, but a lot more accurate.

[Karl Hilliard]

On 8/18/2020 at 12:52 PM, Mathias Baumann said:

Hello Joe,

I've found a different link here: https://archive.politicalassassinations.net/2013/08/recorded-voices-of-lee-oswald-and-ernst-titovets/

Maybe this one will work.

IMHO ------ FAKE

[John Butler]

31 minutes ago, Karl Hilliard said:

IMHO ------ FAKE

The Oswald at the first part of the tape doesn't sound like the Oswald at the second part of the tape.  The Oswald at the second part of the tape sounds like the TV New Orleans Oswald (Harvey).

First part fake?  The Oswald Shakespeare reader doesn't sound like the Oswald in the second part.

Anyone else hear that or have I gone astray?

I have re-listened to this video 3 times.  I have run it through video and voice enhancing software and still hear a difference. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by John Butler

[James Norwood]

I have listened to these tapes many times, and I do not believe they are fake. 

The context here is that the two friends are clowning around recording different voices of dramatic characters, such as those from Shakespeare's Othello.  So, of course, Oswald sounds different depending on the character interpretation in these amateur dramatic readings. 

The more important question for me is why Oswald never speaks in Russian in the recordings.  According to Titovets, the goal of the recordings was to improve Titovets' English language skills; yet his English is clearly competent as apparent in the recordings.  According to Norman Mailer, Titovets had made recordings of Oswald speaking in Russian.  If that is the case, then why did Titovets not release all of the tapes that would offer us a sense of how well Oswald was speaking Russian while in Minsk????

[John Butler]

James,

What's the possibility of Titovets being KGB?  Many think Oswald's best buds was monitoring him for the KGB.  Supposedly, 30 agents, many close to Oswald, were monitoring him.  They had peepholes into his apartment.  There were listening devices.  They even recorded sex talk between Marina and Oswald.  Wonder if that was in Russian?

This idea of Oswalds speaking ability was posted here before in:

Basically, according to this post Armstrong says Oswald doesn't speak Russian or speak Russian very well and Titovets and others he mentions said he spoke only Russian to people in the Minsk area.  And, he spoke well.  He mentions several instances of contradiction of what Armstrong has in Harvey and Lee.

PS

It would be interesting if someone analyzed the first part of the tape with Oswald speaking with the last part of the tape with Oswald speaking.

Has anyone done that?

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by John Butler

[James Norwood]

23 minutes ago, John Butler said:

James,

What's the possibility of Titovets being KGB?  Many think Oswald's best buds was monitoring him for the KGB.

John,

The best analysis of Titovets that I have read is that of the outstanding writer-researcher Millicent Cranor.  Her article is entitled "Is US Effort to Block Oswald Friend and His ‘Revelations’ Another Deception?”, Who.What.Why: https://whowhatwhy.org/2013/08/27/is-us-effort-to-block-oswald-friend-and-his-revelations-itself-a-further-deception/

James

P.S.  While it is true that numerous individuals were asked by the KGB to keep tabs on Oswald during his stay in Minsk, it does not necessarily follow that the snitches were were KGB agents.  A case in point is the engineer Stanislav Shushkevich, who was asked by the KGB to tutor Oswald and to be sure that another person was present with him at all times, so that there was never a private, one-on-one conversation.  But Shushkevich himself was not a KGB agent.

Edited August 20, 2020 by James Norwood

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Quote

Sandy Larsen wrote:

the fact that the designers of the Oswald Project chose a native speaker of Russian for the mission rather than a Russian-taught spy who'd likely have an American accent.

But that isn't a fact. It's speculation....

 

No, it's a fact.

Jeremy took what I said out of context. This is what I said before he stripped off the context:

The supporting evidence -- in the framework of the two-Oswald theory -- is the fact that the designers of the Oswald Project chose a native speaker of Russian for the mission rather than a Russian-taught spy who'd likely have an American accent.

Under the two-Oswald theory, it is a fact that the designers of the Oswald Project chose a native speaker of Russian for the mission rather than a Russian-taught spy who'd likely have an American accent.

If Jeremy wants to accurately characterize what I said as being speculative, he needs to do so under the framework of the one-Oswald theory.

 

 

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, James Norwood said:

John,

The best analysis of Titovets that I have read is that of the outstanding writer-researcher Millicent Cranor.  Her article is entitled "Is US Effort to Block Oswald Friend and His ‘Revelations’ Another Deception?”, Who.What.Why: https://whowhatwhy.org/2013/08/27/is-us-effort-to-block-oswald-friend-and-his-revelations-itself-a-further-deception/

James

P.S.  While it is true that numerous individuals were asked by the KGB to keep tabs on Oswald during his stay in Minsk, it does not necessarily follow that the snitches were were KGB agents.  A case in point is the engineer Stanislav Shushkevich, who was asked by the KGB to tutor Oswald and to be sure that another person was present with him at all times, so that there was never a private, one-on-one conversation.  But Shushkevich himself was not a KGB agent.

Shushkevich was just tutoring Oswald because he was a nice guy?  He didn't make reports to the KGB on Oswald's language instructions?  Agent or informer or snitch?  Is it the same thing?

Belarus's first post-Soviet leader, Stanislau Shushkevich, taught Lee Harvey Oswald Russian during the latter's residency in Minsk.  Interesting.

I would still like to get your answer on whether anyone that you know of conducted tests on the language comparison of the Oswald or Oswalds in the Titovets tapes?

I don't know of any and have been searching the internet for that question.  There is another question that I would like to get your response.

Did the KGB interrogate Oswald?  Some say yes, some say no.  There are two periods of time early on that Oswald doesn't say much for or about.  Oswald, if I am remembering correctly, does not mention an interrogation.  These are:

Nov- 2-15 Days of utter loneliness. I refuse all reports phone calls. I remain in my room; I am racked with dysentery.

Nov 17 - Dec. 30 I have bought myself two self-teaching Russian Language Books. I force myself to study 8 hours a day. I sit in my room and read and memorize words. All meals I take in my room. Rima arranged that. It is very cold on the streets, so I rarely go outside at all. For this month and a-half, I see no one, speak to no-one, except every now and then Rima, who calls the ministry about me...

That's almost two months where not much is said by Oswald about what he was doing, his contacts and events.  The Nov 18- Dec 30 period is most interesting.

Another interesting thing about Oswald is how much money he had to spend in Russia.  From his diary, he said he didn't pay his hotel bill, but told the management he would get money from the US.  Doesn't sound like good hotel policy.  Could be the Russians were helping out?

I often walk down strange what if alleys and byways.  What if American intelligence and Soviet intelligence were in cooperation in getting Oswald, the defector, into the Soviet Union for intel purposes?  The one I am thinking most of is the U2.  Oswald was as close to an expert on it as any with his background.

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Oswald's language abilities are a mystery that we haven't solved today.  The mystery of Oswald in Russia can be brought out of the dark if one considers the question which Oswald was most familiar with secret intelligence gained in the Marines and which Oswald was the most competent in mechanical and electrical concepts and devices.

These photos probably haven't been seen in some time.  They come from Peter Vronsky in 1992.

This was the home of Oswald the "regulator".  The next photo shows the place from a different view.

This is probably the same wall.  If you look closely at both photos they are made of irregular bricks.  They were probably formed from brick rubble from bombing during WW11. 

The inside of the experimental shop looked like this.  Not much to look at by today's standards, but this was in the slide rule era of science.

Vronsky misuses the word regulator.  A regulator was not a machine operator such as a lathe technician.  Regulators were supervisors.  That's why Oswald was paid as much as the factory manager.  It is because he was a high ranking official on par with the factory manager.  He was sent to Minsk, which was not an out of the way place, but the leading Russian tech factory for radio and TV devices.  Here is where new products were invented.

 

Lee Oswald was a supervisor, not a shop technician.

It was Lee Oswald who worked in Aircraft Maintenance and Repair in the fall of 1956.  It was Lee Oswald who was in contact for about 1 1/2 years with the Atsugi U2 ground and flight crews.  It was Lee Oswald who was sent to many top-secret US bases in the Orient and the US.  All of these bases dealt with the U2 and radar.

It was Harvey who spent little time in the service working with these things.  It was Harvey who was said to not be able to drive.  It was Harvey who would not be able to work in this experimental machine shop environment.