The Far-Reaching Influence of “Harvey and Lee”

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

What did the two Oswalds do when they saw each other out in the schoolyard at lunchtime? High 5 ?

If you don’t think it is possible that both LHOs were at Beauregard School during the 1954 spring semester, then you obviously won’t believe it.  We still have school records showing LHOs in New York City and New Orleans throughout the 1953 fall semester, and all that Stripling School evidence placing LHOs in both New Orleans and Fort Worth for the 1954 fall semester.

John’s write-up for the 1954 spring semester at Beauregard relies heavily on the interview with Myra DaRouse. In a school with nearly 700 students, one LHO had home room 303 on the third floor, the other had his home room with Myra DaRouse in the basement cafeteria.  Since one kid preferred to be called Lee, and the other Harvey, who would notice these two boys out of nearly 700 other students--other than a records keeper in the office?   Photocopy machines were not in general use in those days, and so the records must have been merged—by someone--in the cumulative record we see.  It could have been done by school personnel, or by the FBI.

It is, after all, far easier to alter black and white copies than original documents.  As John Armstrong and the HSCA’s Joe Freeman discovered, all the original copies of the school and employment records of LHO disappeared, replaced by photographic copies.

Way back in 1964, New York City officials, including Judge Florence Kelley and NYC Mayor Robert Wagner were involved in a lengthy correspondence attempting to ascertain what had happened to the original school records of LHO, which apparently disappeared after Judge Kelley personally handed the originals to FBI SA John Malone.

In this post, I show John A’s write-up about the disappearing NYC records and five supporting documents.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

Speaking of disappearing original records of employers, I wonder what happened to LHOs pre-Marine Corps Social Security contributions.

Below are the grand totals for Oswald's income in 1962 and 1963:

Employer:	Earnings:
William B. Reily & Co.	422.25
"	191.25
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, Inc.	727.80
"	945.69
"	121.67
Leslie Welding	636.50
Texas Book Depository	261.68
Grand Total	$3306.85

Less than a month after receiving a completed "Application for Survivors Insurance Benefits" filled out by "Marina M. Oswald," the SSA office in Dallas had completed a "Determination of Award" form. Below is the first part of that form:

The Social Security Administration refused to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

------------------

[Sandy Larsen]

6 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

6 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

What did the two Oswalds do when they saw each other out in the schoolyard at lunchtime? High 5 ?

If you don’t think it is possible that both LHOs were at Beauregard School during the 1954 spring semester, then you obviously won’t believe it.  We still have school records showing LHOs in New York City and New Orleans throughout the 1953 fall semester, and all that Stripling School evidence placing LHOs in both New Orleans and Fort Worth for the 1954 fall semester.

John’s write-up for the 1954 spring semester at Beauregard relies heavily on the interview with Myra DaRouse. In a school with nearly 700 students, one LHO had home room 303 on the third floor, the other had his home room with Myra DaRouse in the basement cafeteria.  Since one kid preferred to be called Lee, and the other Harvey, who would notice these two boys out of nearly 700 other students--other than a records keeper in the office?   Photocopy machines were not in general use in those days, and so the records must have been merged—by someone--in the cumulative record we see.  It could have been done by school personnel, or by the FBI.

 

I speculate that the Harvey and Lee records were merged naturally (i.e. without any thought or effort), as follows:

1. Harvey registered as Lee Harvey Oswald and attended part time in the fall of 1953. But whoever created the cumulative record sheet wrote only "Lee Oswald" on it... first and last name only.
2. Lee began attending in the spring of 1954. He didn't register... he just took Harvey's place from then on. (Sort of like they'd done in elementary school.) That is why his grades are on the same cumulative record as Harvey's.
3. Harvey registered (again) as a new student in the spring of 1954, this time using the name Harvey Oswald.
4. After the FBI interviewed Myra DaRouse, they determined that her Oswald had to disappear. So they discarded the Harvey Oswald school records ... as well as all notes of their interview with Myra. They had no idea that the Beauregard school record they kept actually showed class scores for two Oswalds.

 

[James Norwood]

21 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Speaking of disappearing original records of employers, I wonder what happened to LHOs pre-Marine Corps Social Security contributions.

Jim,

It is my understanding that John Armstrong will be talking about this fascinating topic of the Social Security contributions on a future podcast.

Would you please keep us informed of the date and time?

Thanks,

James

[Sandy Larsen]

36 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I speculate that the Harvey and Lee records were merged naturally (i.e. without any thought or effort), as follows:

1. Harvey registered as Lee Harvey Oswald and attended part time in the fall of 1953. But whoever created the cumulative record sheet wrote only "Lee Oswald" on it... first and last name only.
2. Lee began attending in the spring of 1954. He didn't register... he just took Harvey's place from then on. (Sort of like they'd done in elementary school.) That is why his grades are on the same cumulative record as Harvey's.
3. Harvey registered (again) as a new student in the spring of 1954, this time using the name Harvey Oswald.
4. After the FBI interviewed Myra DaRouse, they determined that her Oswald had to disappear. So they discarded the Harvey Oswald school records ... as well as all notes of their interview with Myra. They had no idea that the Beauregard school record they kept actually showed class scores for two Oswalds.

 

Though #1 contradicts the 809 French Street address on the record, which is where LEE's aunt lived.

 

[Tony Krome]

I'll start a new thread soon regarding this Attendance Record

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Tony Krome

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I speculate that the Harvey and Lee records were merged naturally (i.e. without any thought or effort), as follows:

I also think that is possible, but people need to keep in mind that there is surely a reason that all the originals of LHO’s school and employment records disappeared while in FBI custody, replaced by black and white photographic copies.  It’s hard to believe, but the WC actually requested Oswald’s original NYC school records, but by then they had disappeared.  Why?
 

10 hours ago, James Norwood said:

It is my understanding that John Armstrong will be talking about this fascinating topic of the Social Security contributions on a future podcast.

Would you please keep us informed of the date and time?
 

John said he’ll be on Black Op Radio this coming Thursday, July 30.  He plans to talk about several other things in addition to the Marine Corps, but I’m not sure if the Social Security data will be included in this episode, though it may well be.

[Mark Stevens]

On 7/25/2020 at 2:31 PM, Tony Krome said:

What did the two Oswalds do when they saw each other out in the schoolyard at lunchtime? High 5 ?

This is a far reaching topic for which the "Harvey & Lee" cheering section will do their best to steer conversation from, and avoid the serious questions raised in this area.

18 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

If you don’t think it is possible that both LHOs were at Beauregard School during the 1954 spring semester, then you obviously won’t believe it.  We still have school records showing LHOs in New York City and New Orleans throughout the 1953 fall semester, and all that Stripling School evidence placing LHOs in both New Orleans and Fort Worth for the 1954 fall semester.

John’s write-up for the 1954 spring semester at Beauregard relies heavily on the interview with Myra DaRouse. In a school with nearly 700 students, one LHO had home room 303 on the third floor, the other had his home room with Myra DaRouse in the basement cafeteria.  Since one kid preferred to be called Lee, and the other Harvey, who would notice these two boys out of nearly 700 other students--other than a records keeper in the office?   Photocopy machines were not in general use in those days, and so the records must have been merged—by someone--in the cumulative record we see.  It could have been done by school personnel, or by the FBI.

It is, after all, far easier to alter black and white copies than original documents.  As John Armstrong and the HSCA’s Joe Freeman discovered, all the original copies of the school and employment records of LHO disappeared, replaced by photographic copies.

[Picture removed from reply.]

Way back in 1964, New York City officials, including Judge Florence Kelley and NYC Mayor Robert Wagner were involved in a lengthy correspondence attempting to ascertain what had happened to the original school records of LHO, which apparently disappeared after Judge Kelley personally handed the originals to FBI SA John Malone.

In this post, I show John A’s write-up about the disappearing NYC records and five supporting documents.

Tony brings forth a serious question though. How exactly did 2 boys with the same basic identity attend the same school at the same time and not have any overlap which then confused the other students, and themselves as well? Even if it didn't confuse other students and faculty members, they surely would have been aware of both boys. Even in the 2000's, Beauregard only held just over 500 students. Think about your own school experiences with twins, brothers, kids with the same names, kids who looked alike.... My experiences with those groups of people in school don't match what "Harvey & Lee" says happened at Beauregard. I know that doesn't really mean much, but in a situation such as this, all one has to really go on is logic, common sense, and personal experience. 

Trying to fit that all into the "fact" that 2 different boys with almost the same identity went to the same school at the same time in the same grade and almost no one has any recollection of both of them doesn't quite work for me.

It's one thing to try to control everything regarding 2 boys, was everything related to these boys somehow controlled though? For instance, some girl wasn't transferred from one of Lee's classes to one of Harvey's classes and went..."wait...aren't you...Lee?" I feel like there is all kinds of situations where something like this would have happened, eventually someone would have told Harvey/Lee "hey there's another boy here who looks just like you with the same name." At some point, they would have bumped into one another. In the words of George Costanza, worlds would have collided.

Imagine the conversation...

Edited July 26, 2020 by Mark Stevens

[Gene Kelly]

All:

There are many individuals in this thread (started less than a week ago) whom I respect highly for their contributions to the Forum.  But I am disappointed in some of the tone expressed.  I agree with Jim D. that this particular subject evokes unusually strong opinions and reactions. Armstrong’s work on Mexico City, the rifle, Kerry Thornley, and the Tippit shooting are all thought-provoking.  The fact is, John Armstong’s work has had influence … and I see no right or wrong here, especially in such a complex and controversial subject as JFK’s murder.  I can’t for the life of me understand why some react so strongly to the thesis of Harvey and Lee.  There’s simply no good reason to characterize someone as “John’s loyal valet for decades” or refer to “the H&L re-education camp”, and those who side with Armstong’s story as “converts to this cause”. Both James Norwood and Mark Stevens deserve more respect … as do all Forum participants.

Gene

[Tony Krome]

On 7/27/2020 at 3:50 AM, Mark Stevens said:

How exactly did 2 boys with the same basic identity attend the same school at the same time and not have any overlap which then confused the other students, and themselves as well?

According to, and during testimony, the Marguerite Imposter produced a CAP photo of LEE Oswald in a uniform the Marguerite Imposter said she bought and that Robert Oswald helped arrange.

On a Sunday afternoon, 1955, in New Orleans, Marguerite, Robert and LEE Oswald, in uniform, went out together and had lunch.

The Marguerite Imposter, somehow knew about LEE's friend, (presumably Ed Voebel), knew that he talked her son into joining the CAP, and had been present in her house.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Tony Krome

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

Since the offending words below are mine, it’s own up time.

7 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Armstrong’s work on Mexico City, the rifle, Kerry Thornley, and the Tippit shooting are all thought-provoking.

As I’ve said - and more - many times before.  And will do so again, if you really need to hear it.  

This does not, however, make him right in all things asserted.  And even less so when his case is asserted here so poorly.  How can all his fans have the same album, yet sing such different words?

If you feel otherwise, that his work is impeccable and beyond improvement, please say so.  If not, I don’t really see where you have any skin in the game.

The disagreement at hand is restricted to Stripling.  Had it stayed in the appropriate Stripling thread, instead of diverting here in an act of true courage, that likely would have been more obvious.  Please bear that in mind before reciting the lengthy list of Armstrong contributions with which I've repeatedly stated agreement.  Since before the book was published.  Because they are moot for the purpose at hand.  Being right about nine things doesn't give you credit for a tenth thing.  Each must be earned.

Back to Stripling....

7 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

 There’s simply no good reason to characterize someone as “John’s loyal valet for decades”

Now, that was actually intended to be mildly complimentary.  Jim’s been nothing but loyal, and not always to his benefit.  While keeping company that doesn't always agree with him or all of H&L.

Was “valet” the step too far?  Feel free to substitute proxy, agent, operative, representative, webmaster, or any other term of art that doesn’t raise your hackles. 

7 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

or refer to “the H&L re-education camp”, and those who side with Armstong’s story as “converts to this cause”

This, not so elegant, but suitably descriptive.  When varying proxies for H&L cannot stay on the same page, and argue with each other, what is to be done?  It's like herding cats to keep them on the same script, or playing whack-a-mole with people whose story changes as the wind blows.  Which seems not to bother you a whit.  Let them throw mutually exclusive "solutions" at each other, but we're to watch our language in reply. 

When the author himself is not available, can we at least expect his chorus to all sing from the same page of the hymn book?  Or at least the same hymn book?  

The witness says 1952, the book quoting the witness says 1954, but let’s declare them both correct, shall we?  Best not to have to choose. 

But perhaps I'm being too harsh.  Your argument is not actual content, but process.

Because it would be unfair to say of people whose thinking was converted by reading H&L that they are "converts to the cause?"  Is that likewise a step too far?

Quick, hand me the smelling salts.

7 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Both James Norwood and Mark Stevens deserve more respect … as do all Forum participants.

On this point, I’d say you’re half right, at least, so let’s agree to disagree on the rest, shall we?

[Jim Hargrove]

Good grief!  Why waste time and effort talking about me, or Dr. Norwood, or even John Armstrong?   Why not talk about "LEE HARVEY OSWALD"?  Toward that end....

Just a few minutes ago, I put up an addition on the Marines page of HarveyandLee.net that John sent me yesterday.  The new material is in red below:

 On January 23, 1959 Marine Corps records show that LEE Oswald was at Vincent Air Force Base in Yuma, AZ--the same day that Nelson Delgado returned from leave and spoke with HARVEY Oswald about Castro's revolution in Cuba. Six weeks later in March, 1959, Allen Graf arrived at El Toro and soon became a close friend of LEE Oswald. Graf was Oswald's platoon sergeant and they spent a lot of time together and often went to the movies. Graf told Warren Commission attorney John Hart Ely that Oswald (LEE) never studied a foreign language and didn't speak Russian. Graf gave Ely the names of several marines who knew and worked with LEE Oswald at El Toro, including John Castle, Raymond Glidden, James King, Abraham Rubenstein, Goutier, Herd, Maulden and Sawchuk. Ely's job at the WC was to gather background information on Oswald, but now he was puzzled because this was the first time that he heard the names of these marines. 

After interviewing Allen Graf, Ely wrote a memo to his Warren Commission supervisor that read, "He [Graf] is equally clear that they were stationed together at El Toro and not at Santa Ana. They were, he says, stationed with Marine Wing Headquar­ters Group III, Airport Radar Team 1, and were not at the Lighter Than Air Station" [in Santa Ana, CA]....moreover, the names he [Graf] mentioned as having been in his unit are not those generally mentioned as having been in the unit after Oswald returned from Japan." The stories and memories of Marines who knew and worked with LEE Oswald at El Toro remain unknown, as do LEE Oswald's Marine Corps records from El Toro. Not one of these marines were interviewed by the FBI or the Warren Commission or the HSCA. The FBI and Warren Commission limited their investigation to Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald and Marines with whom he worked at the lighter than air facility in Santa Ana, CA.

In later life John Hart Ely was a professor of law at Havard, a professor of law at  Yale, and dean of the law school at Stanford University. Ely was a brilliant lawyer, and was very close to discovering there were two "Lee Harvey Oswalds." Had Ely interviewed Marines at El Toro, and had he interviewed the Provost Marshall at El Toro, then he would have discovered that in the Spring of 1959 a marine named LEE Oswald was at the jet base in El Toro, while at the same time a marine named HARVEY Oswald was stationed at the lighter than air facility at Santa Ana, CA.

In the spring of 1959 Major William P Gorsky was the Assistant Provost Marshall at the Marine Corps Air Station at El Toro. According to Gorsky's files LEE Oswald had been arrested for hitch hiking and was discharged from the marines in March, 1959. Discharged in March, 1959 !! Once again the FBI and Warren Commission avoided El Toro by failing to conduct a proper investigation and failing to obtain LEE Oswald's discharge papers or to interview Major Gorsky. The FBI and Warren Commission's refusal to investigate and interview Marines whos served with LEE Oswald in Japan and LEE Oswald in El Toro, is another very important "smoking gun."

EDIT: I should have provided the source material John used for the above.  It's from the 4/9/64 memo from John Hart Ely to Messres. Jenner & Liebeler:

Edited July 27, 2020 by Jim Hargrove

[James Norwood]

37 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The FBI and Warren Commission's refusal to investigate and interview Marines whos served with LEE Oswald in Japan and LEE Oswald in El Toro, is another very important "smoking gun."

Jim,

The analysis you provide above is a compelling overview of the two Oswalds at the end of the Marine enlistment period.  The same conflicts in the evidentiary record are apparent throughout the Marine years spanning 1956-59.  Here is a synopsis drawn from your most recent article of the first ten months of enlistment where the Marine records clash and two eyewitnesses, Alan Felde and Daniel Patrick Powers, recalled two Oswalds in different places between October, 1956 and May, 1957:
 

HARVEY’S EARLY TRAINING

“From October, 1956 thru early May, 1957 HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were in California.  In May, 1957, HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were transferred to the Airframe and Powerplant (A&P) school in Jacksonville, FL.  Marine Corps Unit Diary #104-57 (pp 719, 724) confirm that Felde arrived in Jacksonville, FL on May 2, 1957.  Following the assassination of President Kennedy the Dallas Police found a 7-page handwritten account of Oswald's background.  HARVEY Oswald wrote that he had served in San Diego, CA from October 1956, to April, 1957 and at Camp Pendleton, CA in April and May, 1957.  Felde's statement to the FBI, HARVEY Oswald's handwritten chronology, and the Marine Corps Unit diaries confirm that HARVEY Oswald and Felde were both in California and did not arrive in Jacksonville until May 2, 1957."

LEE’S EARLY TRAINING

“After graduating, LEE Oswald and 5 other marines were ordered to report to Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, MS (radar school).  They departed Jacksonville, FL by train on May 2 and arrived in Biloxi, MS on May 4.  Marine Corps Unit Diary 105-57 (p 722) confirms that LEE Oswald departed Jacksonville for Biloxi, Mississippi on May 2.  Daniel Patrick Powers was in charge of the 6-member group, which included Oswald.  Reading from his Marine Corps orders, Powers told the Warren Commission that his group reported to the 3383rd student squadron, attended class # 08057 and received instruction in course # AB27037.”
 

SUMMARY

“We now know that when HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were in ITR training and Camp Pendelton in California thru the end of April 1957, at the same time LEE Oswald was on leave in February, attended school in Jacksonville in March and April, and on May 2nd boarded a train for Biloxi with fellow Marine Daniel Patrick Powers.”

If only a very small number of Marines, such as Allen Felde, had been called to testify, the Warren Commission would have been confronted by a Pandora's Box of conflicting evidence pointing to the dual enlistment.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Good grief!  Why waste time and effort talking about me, or Dr. Norwood, or even John Armstrong?   Why not talk about "LEE HARVEY OSWALD"? 

Wow, is Oswald posting here?  Which doppelganger is still alive?

Because I’d really like to ask him a few questions.

Oh, but I see he’s not.

So I’ll pose questions to - and make observations about - the others who are professing to recount his life story.  

Only this past week, John Armstrong was forced to swallow hard and concede that something in his book - and on the internet in his name for ages and ages, curated by you Jim -  wasn’t actually, how you say?  True?

I understand you might not relish more of the same.  

Which is why you abandoned the two threads in which this was made plain.  Just mosey on as if nothing had happened.  Time to get the hell out of Dodge.  Anybody want to talk about other things that might or might not turn out to be untrue?

I’m old fashioned enough to believe that those who spread misinformation ought to be called out for it when it happens.  So, as time allows and interest sustains, I’ll be doing just that.

And - despite its many virtues  (happy now, Gene?) - H&L contains much that is speculative, insufficiently substantiated, explicable by other plausible scenarios, or just flat out wrong.  And worst of all, things that are unnecessary and superfluous to solving the assassination.

When you asked me to critique John’s MS 20-ish years ago, I was instructed to tear holes where possible, ruthlessly demolish whatever didn’t withstand scrutiny, and generally present a counter-argument on all matters of import.  You know, make it bullet-proof.

I did so.

And I understand if my critique may not have been entirely welcome, because I did so.  

In fact, I don’t recall even being thanked for my investment of time.  (I may be wrong on that score, but that remains my impression.)

I have an idea.

Why don’t I search for my notes, so I can refresh my memory on precisely how much was wrong?

Maybe that’ll liven things up a bit.  

Or maybe we should agree to go back to the Stripling thread and conclude unfinished business.

You'll note that I'm not alone there in asking questions that may perplex you. 

In fact, I don't even ask the best ones. 

There are others like Mark Stevens - who started the thread with a nuclear annihilation of the Stripling witnesses - and Tony Krome who not only makes stellar observations, but does so in the fewest number of words possible.  Keen eye, sharp wit, and brevity?  Um, wow.  What's not to like?  Why wouldn't you want to deal with the thing you and yours have left undone?

You'd be most welcome to return there by those whose questions you seem so determined to ignore.

Or you could keep running away from your unfinished business to start new threads where mutual back-slapping and self-congratulation rule the day.

Seems an easy choice for anyone confident in his ability to answer such questions.

 

[James Norwood]

On 7/22/2020 at 1:26 AM, Steve Thomas said:

James,

For me, the most profound example of the use of Harvey Lee Oswald is Item# 9,

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD: SUBJECT - HARVEY LEE OSWALD

a) This was meant to be preserved. It was "for the record"; and,

b) It tells me that the name Harvey Lee Oswald was not a transposition of names. It was not a mistake, or a typo, or as someone put it to me once, a case of "bureaucratic bungling". It was real. It was genuine. It was a thing.

Steve,

As a follow-up to your research into the uses of the name Harvey Lee Oswald, I came across a conference paper delivered by Peter Dale Scott in July 1996.  Scott is a retired professor from Berkeley and one of the key figures who has brought the expression “Deep State” into common use. 

Here is a passage from Professor Scott’s conference presentation that is entitled “Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence, and the Assault on the State Department”: 

“At least one of these G-2 records listed Oswald by a slightly different name.  This alternative name, which eventually was used by at least four different military intelligence sources, was ‘Harvey Lee Oswald.’  This ‘Harvey Lee Oswald’ reference is no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception (and possible dual filing system).  Serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60 is the earliest Harvey Lee Oswald reference we now possess of over two dozen, from the files of ONI, FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, the Secret Service, the Mexican Secret Police (DFS), and the Dallas Police.  A consistent pattern of behavior in these agencies since the assassination has been the tendency to suppress references to ‘Harvey Lee Oswald,’ and replace them by the more standard ‘Lee Harvey Oswald.’”

Here are some takeaways from the paragraph above:

(1)  The references from as early as June 1960 to Harvey Lee Oswald in intelligence files have nothing to do with the JFK assassination because the transpositions of Oswald's name were occurring long before Kennedy was elected president.  But they have everything to do with the Oswald Project of placing a Russian-speaking American asset in the Soviet Union.

(2)  A host of intelligence agencies were using the name Harvey Lee Oswald, and the apparent “dual filing system” implied a distinction between two different men.

(3)  For Scott, the use of the name Harvey Lee Oswald was “no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception.”

(4)  A “consistent pattern” of suppressing the name Harvey Lee Oswald and replacing it with “Lee Harvey Oswald” followed the assassination.  This implies that school records, records from the Marines, Social Security records, and any other references to “Harvey Lee Oswald” were likely changed in the historical record by the United States government.

The paper of Peter Dale Scott may be read at this URL:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/S Disk/Scott Peter Dale/Item 02.pdf

Edited July 27, 2020 by James Norwood