Carlos Hathcock

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

However, the larger idea of trying to somehow recreate the alleged TSBD shots is a fool's errand.  We are chasing our tails - and debating irrelevant disinformation (as Vincent Salandria warned against) - by attempting to analyze timing and the available "evidence".  I am convinced - as Craig Roberts and others have pointed out - that this was an expert ambush from several strategic locations. Multiple shooting teams, special weapons and ammunition, coordinated for effect and deception.  Real snipers would want good egress for escape (i.e. not the TSBD). The Book Depository is not an optimal location for any of these considerations, and any shooters staged there were merely for show and deception. This Carcano weapon is an odd choice for the operation ... I am convinced that no real sniper would choose it for this momentous task. I am reminded of the insight offered by other researchers (e.g. William Orchard) that it was somehow chosen as a joke or a form of disrespect for the investigators who had to later deal with it.       

Gene

Couldn't agree more.  Just prior is my humble attempt at speculation based on a few known facts.  We pretty much agree.  I also agree on shooting from the TSBD.  According to the witnesses the closest to the Sniper's Nest on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th floors (11 out of 13) agree that the shooting they heard came from the west or some other place than the Sniper's Nest.  Most of the out front and Houston Street witnesses say they didn't see any shooting from there.

Trying to analyze the "evidence" whether it is textual or pictorial is a mess due to FBI corruption and the corruption of other authorities.   A good example of their "good deeds" is the testimony of 3 women (Rose Clark, Lilliam Mooneyham, and Jeanette Hooker) who watched the parade on Main Street from Judge King's Court Room on the south side of the Court House.  Rose Clark said she heard 3 shots while the president was on Main Street.  The other two witnesses testimony are confused I think by the FBI as to where they were and what they saw.  Rose Clark said she was in Judge King's room with the others.  The others say in a confused fashion they were there also. 

Someone correct me if I am wrong.  I haven't been able to find an answer to this issue.  Does Judge King's Court Room only face south on Main Street.  I believe that is the case because the 3 women mention going to other rooms to see what happened on Houston and Elm. 

Cecil Ault said he was in Judge King's room, but saw events on Houston and Elm.  Is that possible from Judge King's Court Room.  If that is true what he saw occurred on Main Street.  

   

Edited September 2, 2020 by John Butler

[Robert Montenegro]

On 9/2/2020 at 12:26 PM, John Butler said:

I agree Kennedy was not leaving the Main St. to Elm St. area alive.  As far as a classic military ambush goes one shouldn't use a crossfire or shooting from the front with shooting from the back.  You might shoot your own guy in the heat of the moment.  What's best is an L-shaped ambush.  The guys on the long part of the L shoot directly to their front.  The guys on the short part of the L shoot directly to their front.  Folks don't shoot each other that way.  If there's not a lot of people, say maybe 3 in the ambush, angles of fire can be used if all positions in the ambush are known.

In Dealey Plaza nearly everyone agreed there were 3 shots in two patterns.  First there was a shot and a small time later two more close together.  The other variation is 3 shots equally spaced. 

That is exactly what happened, a highly modified, "L-Shaped" ambush!

When I attended the rifle familiarity course at Fort Sill (about the third week of basic training), I was taught by at least one United States Army combat-hardened sniper, who just so happened to be a junior Drill Sergeant in my platoon.

One of the first lessons he taught us about was how to ambush an unarmored, vehicle, with enemy personnel in it, from a fixed position.

He said your best bet for neutralizing all enemy personnel was to set up an ambush where the vehicle had to make a slow, wide turn and use a modified "L-Shaped" ambush, which our rifle instructor called a "Double Knight".

You see, a knight on a chess board can move in a "L" when attacking an opposing piece, so, a double knight ambush is two, overlapping "L-Shaped" ambushes, with the first "L" in a high, yet flat rearward position, firing multiple volleys.

And the second "L" ambush is the long arm of the first "L" and a complete "L" formation in front of the moving vehicle, firing on the remaining targets of opportunity. This allows the short end of the first fireteam to retreat, while the remainder of the long arm of the first fireteam provides cover fire for the forward facing "L-Shaped" ambush.

Essentially, it is a moving target, entering a rectangular ambush, that fires on the enemy, retreats with cover fire, or displaces and re-engages if main target is not terminated.

Typically, if executed properly, the enemy stands no chance of surviving a "Double Knight" (two overlapping "L-Shaped" fireteams) ambush.

And if you examine all of the eyewitnesses from the Dealey Plaza ambush, that is exactly what was observed, volley gun fire (mistaken for automatic weapons) coming from the rear of the President's motorcade, then several surgical shots, incapacitating the main target (while shooters on the right side of the motorcade provide cover fire for retreating rear teams/ targets of opportunity are hit, like Connally), then finally the kill shots, from the front and the back at the same time (along with plastic explosives/ fire crackers from the roof of the Sexton Building, to get the crowd looking at the "Oswald" nest). 

Interestingly enough, one of the first places in military history you see a "L-Shaped" ambush taught to infantrymen in a standardized field manual is the Nazi German guerilla warfare manual titled "Oberkommando der Wehrmacht Nr. 03268/44, Merkblatt 69/2, "Bandenbekämpfung," 6.5.1944"

SS-Obersturmbannführer Otto Skorzeny was the author of that field manual and SS-Sturmbannführer Arthur Ehrhardt oversaw the training described in it (both men were CIA assets and luminaries of the post-WWII "Kameradenwerk der Bruderschaft" organization).

Here is a photograph of the original illustration of an "L-Shaped" ambush from the Nazi German guerilla warfare manual:

 

The Skorzeny-Ehrhardt approved guerilla warfare manual also states that the rifle commandos need to get jobs that employ them in and around the kill zone, in advance of an assassination plot, so they can best plan how to attack their target and calm suspicion from locals (who may become worried if they see unfamiliar faces in their town). 

Kinda like how Lee Harvey Oswald got a job in the Sexton Building (via Ruth Hyde Paine's intervention) weeks before the President of the United States would be forced to a near standstill, via the turn at Houston and Elm, and into the sights of multiple, combat hardened, independent yet synchronistic, fireteams... 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Robert Montenegro

[John Butler]

6 hours ago, Robert Montenegro said:

He said you best bet for neutralizing all enemy personnel was to set up an ambush where the vehicle had to make a slow, wide turn and use a modified "L-Shaped" ambush, which our rifle instructor called a "Double Knight".

Robert,

You bring back not so fond memories.  I kept my comments on a L-shaped ambush simple.  

Actually, the best way to deal with a moving vehicle is with a rocket launcher and machine guns.  But, dealing with a single target in a moving vehicle is a much tougher proposition requiring other methods of shooting. 

Your German diagram is excellent.  It stresses the most important part of an ambush.  Don't let your people shoot you or you shoot your people.

 

[John Butler]

1 minute ago, John Butler said:

Robert,

You bring back not so fond memories.  I kept my comments on a L-shaped ambush simple.  

Actually, the best way to deal with a moving vehicle is with a rocket launcher and machine guns.  But, dealing with a single target in a moving vehicle is a much tougher proposition requiring other methods of shooting. 

Your German diagram is excellent.  It stresses the most important part of an ambush.  Don't let your people shoot you or you shoot your people.

 

I am a creature of habit.  Dealing with this new format is somewhat annoying.  I keep looking for the edit button and push the quote button by habit.

Anyway, once the idea of the need for multiple shooting teams is understood then it's hard to continue to think about a lone gunman whose 2nd shot will be less accurate and a 3rd shot more inaccurate than the first and second.

[Robert Montenegro]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

Robert,

You bring back not so fond memories.  I kept my comments on a L-shaped ambush simple.  

Actually, the best way to deal with a moving vehicle is with a rocket launcher and machine guns.  But, dealing with a single target in a moving vehicle is a much tougher proposition requiring other methods of shooting. 

Your German diagram is excellent.  It stresses the most important part of an ambush.  Don't let your people shoot you or you shoot your people.

 

Sorry about the memories, sir, I have trouble with dealing with my military experience every day...

And yes, I heartily agree with you, the best way to incapacitate a moving vehicle is to use a combination of grenadier or sapper personnel, along with a heavy machine gun fireteam, however, it is obvious that the fireteams who murdered President Kennedy were ordered only to kill the occupants on the right side of the vehicle (based on the firing sequence and shot groups) and not to incapacitate the vehicle itself.

Yeah, I have been looking at military tactics that Otto Skorzeny had a hand in perfecting (since there is a growing belief that he had something to do with the events of 22 November 1963), and sure enough, an "L-Shaped" ambush on a moving target, forced to slow down because of a sharp turn, is one of the tactics Skorzeny employed in combat operations...

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

Anyway, once the idea of the need for multiple shooting teams is understood then it's hard to continue to think about a lone gunman whose 2nd shot will be less accurate and a 3rd shot more inaccurate than the first and second.

Yes sir! The use of multiple overlapping, independent yet synchronistic, fireteams is the only way to interpret what happened in Dealey Plaza.

Any one who spends a single moment examining the murder of President Kennedy, trying to figure out how Oswald could hit a moving target with a defective, bolt-action, pre-WWII era rifle, at least seven times (including forward kill shots) within five seconds from the worst vantage point in the whole of Dealey Plaza (the far Southwest side of the Sexton Building), is partaking in an exercise of futility.

And once you get over the insanity of one man doing all of that damage to Kennedy, Connally, Tague, and SS-100-X, you have to understand that an ad hoc, state-sponsored, sniper-based, high profile target, surgical assassination fireteam employs spotters, radio operators, support security teams, tactical diversionary teams, the need for false identification papers, escape and evasion routes, safe houses, patsies to take the fall, retreats in friendly countries without extradition, intimidation, harassment, kidnapping and murdering of key eyewitness, destruction of evidence (film, photographs, audio), placing propaganda in the media to effect a cover story, compromising local law enforcement, ect.

Yeah, it is ludicrous to believe Oswald had anything to do with the structure of the multiple fireteams that were needed to murder President Kennedy.

 

 

Just for thrills and giggles, here is a shooter sequence/fireteam scenario that I played around with recently, at the expense of stirring the turd pot:

Shooter Sequence:

A grand total of seventeen shots were fired in 5.6 seconds; that's including a rear entry back wound, a frontal neck wound, two right frontal head shots and two direct hits on the rear of President Kennedy's head (six hits total on the president). 

Texas Governor John B. Connolly was hit at least six times, twice in the back, once in the chest, once in the right arm, wrist and thigh, from multiple directions. 

The chrome frame above the limousine’s rear-view mirror was struck from the rear. 

The windshield was struck from the front, causing a bullet hole.

 The trunk of the limo was struck by a bullet, causing an indentation. 

And two bystanders had been hit by derbies caused by bullets striking below their line of sight, Norma Jean Lollis Hill reported grass and dirt splashing her from a bullet that came from the hill in front of the presidential motorcade and James Thomas Tague was slashed in the face by concrete shards from a shot he said came from the North Pergola Monument, directly behind Abraham Zapruder (the Southeast side of the Sexton Building).

Fireteam Senario:

Robert Emmett Johnson (Intercontinental Penetration Force)--- Hollowed-out trunk of station wagon (across the street from the grassy knoll; parked backwards on the left side of road)--- scores a forward head shot on Kennedy (“Remington XP-100” rifle w/ “.221 Remington Fireball” ammo)

Bernard Leon “Macho” Barker “AMCLATTER-1” (Operación 40 assassin/ AMWORLD asset)--- Manhole/ Grassy Knoll Shooter--- scores a forward neck wound on Kennedy and a miss, damages vehicle (modified “ArmaLite AR-10 Project SALVO Special Purpose Individual Weapon” carbine-electromagnetic dart launcher w/ “poison-filled plastic-tipped ice flechette” ammo)

Frank Angelo Fiorini AKA Frank Anthony Sturgis (Operation 40 assassin/ “Chicago Junta” participant)--- School Book Depository--- he scores a back wound on Kennedy and body wounds on Connally, misses target, damages vehicle (modified “Fallschirmjägergewehr 42 Type G” automatic rifle w/ “.22 caliber” sabot ammo)

Capt. Jean-René Marie Souètre (Organisation armée secrète)--- Grassy Knoll Shooter--- misses target, hits ground across the street, scores a forward headshot (“De Lisle Commando” carbine paratrooper stock w/ “.45 ACP” ammo)

Sandalio Herminio Díaz García (Operation 40 assassin)--- School Book Depository shooter--- scores body wounds on Connally and several misses (modified “M1” carbine rechambered to “9mm” ammo)

Eladio Ceferino del Valle Gutierrez “Yito” (Operación 40 assassin)--- Dal-Tex shooter--- misses target, damages vehicle and hits a bystander with a ricochet (“FAL 50.63 PARA 2” battle rifle w/ “.22 caliber” sabot ammo)

Loran Eugene Hall (International Anti-Communist Brigade/ American Committee To Free Cuba/ Minutemen)--- Dal-Tex shooter--- scores a rear head shot on Kennedy (“ArmaLite AR-15 Model 01” assault rifle w/ .223 ammo)

Nestor Antonio “Tony” Izquierdo--- Dal-Tex shooter--- scores a rear head shot on Kennedy and a miss, damages vehicle (“HK G3A3” 1963 bipod version battle rifle w/ “.22 caliber” sabot ammo)

Maj. Lauri Allan Törni (United States Army Special Forces)--- Storm Drain shooter--- scores a forward head shot (“M3A1 Greaser” submachine gun w/ “.45 ACP” ammo)

Maj. Gen. Mitchell Livingston WerBell III “AMBOAR” (CIA contractor)--- Grassy Knoll Shooter (above storm drain)--- scores a forward head shot on JFK and body wounds on Gov. Connally (first generation experimental “Military Armament Corporation Model 10” machine pistol w/ “.45 ACP” ammo)

 

Obviously, I have no proof of the above scenario, but what the hell, there are grown men on this forum legitimately talking about aliens and UFOs...
 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Robert Montenegro

[John Butler]

17 hours ago, Robert Montenegro said:

Yes sir! The use of multiple overlapping, independent yet synchronistic, fireteams is the only way to interpret what happened in Dealey Plaza.

Jackie Kennedy said the motorcycles were continually backfiring.  I don't know about firecrackers.  I don't think any witnesses actually said they saw one, maybe a couple.  They just said they heard something like one. With all that noise how could anyone tell what were a firecrackers or backfires.  They happened all along the parade route as the p. limo came to the intersection of Main and Houston, along Houston, and on Elm.  Because of hearing 3 shots, that is basically is what most witnesses said.  I believe each shooting team was limited to 3 shots.  Could be one guy or three.  

There's a problem with this and 3 shots.  The FBI may have coerced or changed testimony to 3 shots in different sequences to confuse the situation as would be normal for witnesses.  Did they do this to witness statements?  Yes.  3 shots match what one sees in the Zapruder film.  Which may have been under production prior to the assassination.  Remember what Dino Bruginio, the CIA photo lab wizard, said.  Paraphrasing, anything can be done with film.

17 hours ago, Robert Montenegro said:

A grand total of seventeen shots were fired in 5.6 seconds; that's including a rear entry back wound, a frontal neck wound, two right frontal head shots and two direct hits on the rear of President Kennedy's head (six hits total on the president). 

I'm not sure I agree with 17 shots.  But, you have laid out your thinking in support of that.  That's more than a lot of folks do.  And, as you said, "Obviously, I have no proof of the above scenario, but what the hell, there are grown men on this forum legitimately talking about aliens and UFOs..."   

That's why I don't mind speculating about events from time to time.  And, a horror story to some is there is not much evidence to support these speculations.  My major contention is that something different happened in Dealey Plaza than what the official story (WC conclusions) says and it is also different to those theorists who use the Zapruder film as a major portion of their theories.  Here's what really bothers peope.  105 witnesses say that almost everyone speaking about the assassination is wrong.  105 witnesses say the headshot at Z 313 is fictitious and so on.

Nobody will ever be prosecuted in modern times for what happened 57 years ago.  Most of the people involved are now gone and the rest will depart shortly, if there is anyone left.  What's left?  Contradict and expose "lone nutter" theories and conclusions.  Most people who read this are not going to change their thinking to something new and radical.  They have to much invested in their own reasoning and theories.         

Edited September 4, 2020 by John Butler

[Joe Bauer]

If the actual 6th floor found rifle and scope was never used in re-creation simulation tests, any results realized by using other rifles are totally invalid imo.

Pretty simple scientific logic.