John Armstrong on Black Op Radio: the reported later statements of Victoria Adams (The Girl on the Stairs) are probably a hoax.

[John Butler]

Stupid editor.

 

 

 

On 2/20/2021 at 1:56 AM, Pat Speer said:

I guess I agree with Armstrong then. When I went back and looked at this a few years back, it became quite clear that Adams and Styles raced downstairs and came across Shelley and Lovelady entering from the west side. 

Her saying her testimony was changed was, in my opinion, a defense mechanism begun as a reaction to the actions of Ball and Belin, who told her Shelley and Lovelady failed to return for 5 minutes or so after the shooting. This was a lie. 

I firmly believe, moreover, that Ball and Belin knew this was a lie. They never asked Shelley and Lovelady if they saw Truly and Baker when they (S and L) came back in through the west side. And this even though Baker swore he saw two white men at the back of the building when he was standing by the elevators. 

When you read through all the statements it's clear these two were S and L. 

 

[John Butler]

On 2/20/2021 at 1:56 AM, Pat Speer said:

I guess I agree with Armstrong then. When I went back and looked at this a few years back, it became quite clear that Adams and Styles raced downstairs and came across Shelley and Lovelady entering from the west side. 

Her saying her testimony was changed was, in my opinion, a defense mechanism begun as a reaction to the actions of Ball and Belin, who told her Shelley and Lovelady failed to return for 5 minutes or so after the shooting. This was a lie. 

I firmly believe, moreover, that Ball and Belin knew this was a lie. They never asked Shelley and Lovelady if they saw Truly and Baker when they (S and L) came back in through the west side. And this even though Baker swore he saw two white men at the back of the building when he was standing by the elevators. 

When you read through all the statements it's clear these two were S and L. 

Again!  I've trying clearing this out but it won't go away.

[John Butler]

Vickie Adams statements on the murder of President Kennedy:

11-24-63-  Vickie Adams- FBI statement-  She heard 3 shots which sounded if they came from the right.  Her view of p. limo and what was occurring when she heard the 3 shots was blocked by trees.  She did not mention seeing Shelley and Lovelady.

2-17-64-  Vickie Adams- Jim Leavelle’s (Dallas Police detective) statement-  She said she heard 3 shots.  After the second shot she saw a Secret Service man run to the back of the p. limo.  She runs down the stairs and sees Bill Shelley and an employee named Bill.  She does not say where she saw them.  But, this statement was made between two other statements concerning whether the elevators were running.  These statements by Leavelle directly contradicts things said on 11-24-63. 

3-23-64-  Vickie Adams- FBI statement-  She said she heard 3 shots.  She thought they were firecrackers.  But, on see all the confusion below she knew they were shots.  The p. limo passed below.  Then she saw the p. limo speed away.  (nothing about trees here, but the language is confusing)

4-7-64-  Warren Commission testimony- Her view of the p. limo was obstructed by trees as they passed below on the street.  She heard a shot then the record stops there.  It is as if it was edited.  She explains to Belin her view was blocked by a tree and immediately goes on to explain the shooting sequence.  Her view of the p. limo was blocked when she heard the shooting.

Her WC testimony goes on to say after running down the steps she sees Shelley and Lovelady.  It does not say where she saw them on the first floor or by the elevators.

Assessment:

1.     She heard 3 shots.  They sounded as if they came from the right.  Her view of the shooting was blocked by trees.  She said nothing about Lovelady and Shelley.

2.     The idea that Shelley and Lovelady are by the elevator is introduced in a vague sort of way in the 2-17-64 Detective Leavelle interview of Vickie Adams.

3.     Vickie Adams statement to the FBI on 3-23-64 she says nothing about her viewing being blocked by trees or of seeing Shelley and Lovelady.

4.     The 4-7-64 WC statement is more in tune with what she originally said except for seeing Shelley and Lovelady.  She did not say she saw them by the elevators.

Nowhere in the early statements of Vickie Adams was there anything directly said about seeing Shelley and Lovelady by the elevators.

There is a loose connection, or an inference that could be made saying they were by the elevators in the Leavelle interview of 2-17-64.

[John Butler]

40 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

A fraud that was transmitted over the Associated Press wire within 30 minutes of the assassination?

This doesn't mean that the photo transmitted at 30 minutes after the assassination ( about 1:00 CST) is the one that showed up on Walter Cronkite news at 5:30 CST and is the one we use today.

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

This doesn't mean that the photo transmitted at 30 minutes after the assassination ( about 1:00 CST) is the one that showed up on Walter Cronkite news at 5:30 CST and is the one we use today.

OK, then prove that it wasn't/isn't. How are we to then distinguish one supposed version of the photo from another? How do you know you aren't analyzing the "real" image? Otherwise, this is just a bunch of hand-waving and wishful thinking amateur photo analysis.

[John Butler]

37 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

OK, then prove that it wasn't/isn't.

That's the whole theme of the Kennedy assassination.  And, why should I do that?  I'll do one explanation and that's it for a personal reason.

Altgens 6 represents the location of the p. limo in front of the Stemmons sign equivalent to Zapruder frame 255.  I contend that is not true for various reasons.  Here's one.  The majority of witnesses I surveyed and collected, 105+ witnesses, say that shooting occurred in front the TSBD under the trees.  There are no trees further down Elm.  And, certainly not down by the Stemmons sign and passed it in front of the Grassy Knoll.  I like to flaunt these witnesses that almost everyone ignores.    

How many witnesses do you believe before you are convinced of something.  1?  5? 90?

Let's take what this current thread is talking about and put Oswald on trial with some of the information we get from Vickie Adams and other 4th floor witnesses.  

All, except Elsie Dorman, said shooting occurred while the p. limo was under trees and out of sight.  Most, except Elsie Dorman, said shooting came from the west.  And, Mary Hollies who said the thought it came from the building.  

Each of the following witnesses would say "Yes, I heard shooting while sight of the president was obscured by trees below.  And, the shooting came from the west of the building.

This would be:

Vickie Adams

Sandra Styles did not say at the time, but later said much the same as Vickie Adams.

Dorothy Gardner

Elsie Dorman said shooting came from the Court Records Building. 

Yola Hopson

Ruth Nelson

Steve Wilson on the third floor

There are some unreliable witnesses:

Bonnie Ray Williams

Mary Hollies

Alice Foster  

What if we put them into the witness chair (one after the other) at Oswald's trial.  What would be the effect?  Do you think Oswald would walk based on reasonable doubt?  Once again, how many witnesses does it take to be believable?

Sorry, but you are on the list of people I don't talk to because it is a waste of time.  I answered only because of a personal reason.  I like to flaunt the 105+ witness list that nobody pays attention to.  If you have been paying attention I have done that several times.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by John Butler

[Jonathan Cohen]

John,

You can trot out witness testimony all you like. Witnesses are frequently confused and/or flat-out wrong, as we have seen time and time again in the Kennedy assassination. In this specific case, these witnesses certainly cannot be used to impugn the veracity of a photograph transmitted over the AP wire within 30 minutes of the shooting. It is an impossibility that the photo was altered prior to transmission, and as such, it accurately represents not only the limousine but the people on the steps of the Book Depository at that particular moment in time.